Cooling the DirecTivo [Archive] - DealDatabase Forum - Deals, Freebies, and TiVo & DirecTivo Hacking

dss4menow

01-03-2003, 06:53 AM

Great web site Networker. It shows that you spent a lot time thinking about this problem and your engineering is quite impressive. I was thinking of a different approach and wanted to get your opinion. While I was working on my hard drive (I have 2 120 GB hard drives installed), I left the cover off of the DTivo unit (T-60). It has now been running for days. I touched the hard drives and I barely perceive any heat. So I thought, I could just cut out a big portion of the top case and install by heat vent (you know the louvered vent you get at Home Depot). This way, there probably wouldn't be any need to install another fan. even if there was, I could just place the fan or two or three or four right on top of the louvered vent and let the air rush out and/or be forced in. Does this sound workable?

Thanks.

captain_video

01-03-2003, 08:43 AM

I just run both my DTivos with the covers off and they're nice and cool. Some people may be concerned that this will allow too much dust to collect inside the case. My feeling is that it's going to collect inside the case even with the cover on. If you have any doubts about this, look inside your PC case if you haven't dusted it out in a while. It's enclosed in a case and gets loaded with dust and I don't think a Tivo will be any different.

A couple of comments on the cooling methods outlined in the website (nice job, BTW).

1) I'd use actual duct tape for sealing instead of cheap Scotch tape (the aluminized kind used for ductwork, not the cheap gray stuff).

2) Why not use a piece of thin sheet metal, like aluminum, instead of cardboard for closing the area over the fan housing. It would be sturdier and allow more heat transfer. You should be able to find some small sheets of aluminum at your local hobby shop.

3) Instead of taping all around the area where the drive bracket mates with the partition, why not try using a gasket material such as that used around storm doors. It has a sticky back that could easily be applied to the partition. I don't know about you but I tend to be in and out of my DTivo a lot and I need a more flexible arrangement for taking out the drive rack on occasion.

4) I think the holes drilled in the fan housing should be larger to allow better air flow. If possible, the entire top half should be cut out altogether (only the bulkhead portion where the holes are drilled, not the entire bracket)

5) A secondary fan could be mounted on the side of the top cover at the end of the drive rack. Drill some holes in the sides at each end to allow airflow through the unit with the intake being at one side and the outflow at the other. Install mesh grills over the openings for a finished appearance.

Please note that these are merely opinions and observations based on a 1st impression of the work that was outlined on the website. I have not done any of these mods on my own DTivo so I can't say how well they would work or even if some of them are feasible. I think the originator has done an outstanding job of presenting his design changes. It's inputs like this that make this forum so great.

hades

01-03-2003, 08:43 AM

Networker: Thanks for the info, great idea. Ya, I just installed the exact same HD on my dtivo last weekend.

I was wondering, has anyone upgraded their fan with something quieter? I was thinking something like a dual ball bearing but I dont know if it would be any better then the one that is in it now. Networker mentions that he tried but apparently without much luck. Anyone else have any luck?

zabs

01-03-2003, 09:16 AM

Yes networker, excellent site.

Really the best cooling method is to run the tivo with no cover, which is what I do with "my" tivo which is downstairs, but with the "wife's" tivo upstairs I feel it safer to leave the cover on what with an 18 month old roaming about getting into everything. The last thing I need is some small fried fingers and a dead tivo power supply. :) Especially after I spent 15 minutes digging legos out of the vcr this past week.

So for people with those types of concerns, noise issues, or for anyone who needs a "pretty tivo" with the cover on, those suggestions look great. I think I will give them a try at the nearest convenient juncture.

networker

01-03-2003, 11:44 AM

I doubt it increases the lifespan of the fan. I think it's purely a matter of noise. If you can stand it, power the fan with 12v and your internal temp will get in the low thirties even maybe high twenties degrees C.

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
You can increase the fan speed by unloading the fan.o module. My only concern with this though is the purpose of the fan.o module. Does it increase the lifespan of the fan or something?

networker

01-04-2003, 10:55 PM

> dss4menow wrote:
> Great web site Networker.

Thanks.

> While I was working on my hard drive (I have 2 120 GB hard
> drives installed), I left the cover off of the DTivo unit (T-60).
> It has now been running for days. I touched the hard drives
> and I barely perceive any heat.

Running without the top is definitely an option, if you can stand the extra noise and the bickering of the wife. Also, I don't recommend it if you have kids or cats.

> So I thought, I could just cut out a big portion of the top case
> and install by heat vent (you know the louvered vent you get
> at Home Depot). This way, there probably wouldn't be any
> need to install another fan. even if there was, I could just
> place the fan or two or three or four right on top of the
> louvered vent and let the air rush out and/or be forced in.
> Does this sound workable?

Appears quite destructive. I would suggest trying my way first and play with the fan's speed. If you can stand the noise of running it open, you will stand the noise of running the fan faster with the case closed.

In my experience, forced airflow (with the case closed) works better in almost any situation except open case.

networker

01-04-2003, 11:00 PM

> hades wrote:
> I was wondering, has anyone upgraded their fan with
> something quieter? I was thinking something like a dual ball
> bearing but I dont know if it would be any better then the
> one that is in it now.

I tried double ball bearing and magnetic levitation fans (that's how I burned the fan connector on the motherboard because I was connecting with bare wires. Do what I say, not what I do).

Anyway, both the double ball and the magnetic levitation kind were both more efficient and louder, this was largely due do the fact that they did indeed turn faster. IMHO, all fans are mostly equal when running at low speeds.

networker

01-04-2003, 11:21 PM

> captain_video wrote:
> 1) I'd use actual duct tape for sealing instead of cheap Scotch
> tape (the aluminized kind used for ductwork, not the cheap
> gray stuff).

I tried. It leaves sticky crud when you remove it, and I did tape several times experimenting. I recommend the one I used, 3M "invisible". Goes off easily.

> 2) Why not use a piece of thin sheet metal, like aluminum,
> instead of cardboard for closing the area over the fan housing.
> It would be sturdier and allow more heat transfer.

There is no need for heat transfer, and the depression of such fans is nothing to be worried about in terms of sturdiness. Thin cardboard is easy to cut with regular scissors :-)

> 3) Instead of taping all around the area where the drive
> bracket mates with the partition, why not try using a gasket
> material such as that used around storm doors. It has a sticky
> back that could easily be applied to the partition.

Definitely. Unfortunately Home Depot was closed at the time I was working in the DirecTivo. If I have to open it again I will most likely do this.

> 4) I think the holes drilled in the fan housing should be larger
> to allow better air flow.

Yes, but not by much.

> If possible, the entire top half should be cut out altogether
> (only the bulkhead portion where the holes are drilled, not
> the entire bracket).

I'm not sure about this, because it will end up bringing air by the sides of the hard disk, and I think that given the limited air flow we have it is better to stick with the top.

> 5) A secondary fan could be mounted on the side of the top
> cover at the end of the drive rack. Drill some holes in the
> sides at each end to allow airflow through the unit with the
> intake being at one side and the outflow at the other.
> Install mesh grills over the openings for a finished appearance.

Would work nicely, but might be noisier than increasing the internal fan's speed for the same result.

cpalmer1040

01-21-2003, 03:05 PM

I was wondering how you connect a different fan to the motherboard? It is only a 2pin connection. If I connect a new fan to the harddrive 4 pin connecter will I loose any bennefits to the fan being connected to the board.

Thanks

networker

01-21-2003, 07:15 PM

> cpalmer1040 wrote:
> I was wondering how you connect a different fan to the
> motherboard? It is only a 2pin connection.

It does not matter if it's not a 3-pin. If you have a 3-pin fan, you just have to connect the red and the black the same place the original fan has them. Most 3-pin connectors will plug on the 2-pin motherboard connector.

I fried my motherboard connector because I had some leftover fans with bare wires and shorted them, but if you stick to standard connectors and respect polarity you can put any fan you want. The third wire on fans is to monitor the fan's speed; if it's not connected the fan still works.

> If I connect a new fan to the harddrive 4 pin connecter
> will I loose any bennefits to the fan being connected to
> the board.

No, they work independantly. You could have a fan on each one.

BubbleLamp

01-21-2003, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by cpalmer1040
I was wondering how you connect a different fan to the motherboard? It is only a 2pin connection. If I connect a new fan to the harddrive 4 pin connecter will I loose any bennefits to the fan being connected to the board.

Thanks

The voltage on the connector on the MB is regulated by the software, so it varies with temp. Running off the 4pin, you'll get full 12V all the time.

cpalmer1040

01-21-2003, 08:59 PM

Aren't the only choices for fan connectors 3 and 4 pin? If so, how do I connect a 3 pin connector to just 2 pins on the board?

(never mind, didn't read all of the messages)

punapaniolo

01-23-2003, 05:25 AM

Why have none of you tried a hard drive cooling fan? I have one on my Sat T60 single drive system with a WD1200JB and it seems to work well. My temps run 46 to 48C and the noise is barely noticible.

pp

cpalmer1040

01-23-2003, 08:39 PM

Which one are you using? Does it fit in the case or did you have to do any modifications?

networker

01-23-2003, 10:33 PM

> punapaniolo wrote:
> Why have none of you tried a hard drive cooling fan? I
> have one on my Sat T60 single drive system with a
> WD1200JB and it seems to work well. My temps run 46
> to 48C and the noise is barely noticible.

I thought about doing it but nothing that I have seen addresses the heat buildup on the top of the disk. Can we see photos?

punapaniolo

01-24-2003, 02:43 AM

Sorry, I do not have a photo. I attached the fan to the top of the drive with double stick tape, the thick spongy kind, and plugged it in. Very easy...I like easy.

pp

cpalmer1040

01-27-2003, 03:37 PM

Should I remove the foam in the case to improve airflow?

zabs

01-27-2003, 03:59 PM

I removed the foam in both of my tivos simply because it is like wrapping a blanket around the hard drives and does not help much with the sound. If you are going to have the cover I, definately recomment pulling off the foam.

corvette

01-27-2003, 05:08 PM

I have the cover off on mine, looks gay but runs cooler, 39-45C Is there any harm to this method? besides probing fingers?

Animal_Mother

01-27-2003, 06:29 PM

I put a 7200 rpm in mine and of course I started having heat issues. Bought a hard-drive fan and had to modify it to fit but it still didn't work. Kept getting the resets.

So I removed the HD fan and just ran with it with the case open.

I thought there has to be a way to fix this. I bought a case fan like used above and cut a hole in the top of the case just behind the hard-drive. Plugged it into the extra power connector running to the hard drives. I installed it so it was bringing fresh air into the system. I tried that for a while and was still having the resets. Reversed the fan so it was exhausting the air and it hasn't missed a beat yet. Running in the mid 30's. This was several months ago. And you can't hear it if you get a good quality fan.

JustCuz

01-27-2003, 07:31 PM

This is what I did:

http://www.geocities.com/justcuzdss/DTiVoWP.htm

Works great. The only word of warning I would give is to find good fans that will last and aren't too noisy. I used 486 proc fans with the heat-sink removed. I got these unbranded fans at my local Electronics shop for $2.99 each, and they are great. But, the same sort of fan from Rat Shack will run you $7.00, make 3x as much noise, and fail completely within a few months. I apologize for not being able to give more details about these fans...the labels don't give a brand or any Identifying info.

dwellar

01-27-2003, 11:08 PM

Here are my thoughts on running with the cover off.
I'm no expert on cooling but consider the following.

I'm guessing that the thermal sensor is near the downstream
air of the built-in fan. Most of the air from the drive(s) and
circuit board components will be pulled by the fan and
registered by the sensor -- only if the top cover is ON.

Leave the cover off and a lot of the sensor air is mixed
with room temperature air. That means the air temp
will show a much cooler reading. But the components
are not getting cooled. They are cooking in their own
stagnant air. The majority of the chip cooling will be by
convection, not forced air. To make it clear, the sensor
is running cooler, not the heat producing components.

A lot of the heat being felt by the hand on the exit side
of the case is from the power supply, not the disk drives.
Cool off the bottom of the drives and the metal mass of
the drive frame will keep the whole drive cool. Beneath
the drives is where the motherboard components are
located. To me, the motherboard and electronics are more
important than the disk drives anyway. I can easily buy
another disk drive - It will be much more expensive to
fix the motherboard should one of the main chips fail.
And a replacement unit is not easy to find, if at all.
For the above reasons, I don't think the modifications that
drill holes in the fan compartment to suck air from above
the disk drives is a good idea. Again, just my opinion.
It is a good idea to block all those air sneak paths between
the main board section and the power supply section, though.

So, I will not run with the cover off, except for some
short time troubleshooting. If anything, put more fans
in there and get the air moving over the parts. I want to
thank the original poster on this subject. It got me to think
about the cooling and what was more important to cool,
at least for me.

networker

01-28-2003, 01:28 PM

JustCuz,

http://www.geocities.com/justcuzdss/DTiVoWP.htm

Great mod!

There is one thing you need to do though, is to tape the square holes underneath the unit, on both sides. What you have done is to replace the instake and exhaust holes with fans. You need to plug the old holes. Air flow is all about pressure difference, and these square holes at the bottom are a huge leak.

Also, tape the separation between the to compartments in the back. With your fans, you probably don't need nor want to tape the other holes.

> I found that by REMOVING the gray padding from the
> inside of the cover, the HD's stay a lot cooler. The fans
> are still required, but removing that gray stuff is, in my
> opinion, essential to keep the HD's from eventually
> over-heating

No surprise here. Our respective mods are complementary: If you implement mine it will further enhance the cooling of your hard drives. With the extra fans, you should get to the point were they are not even warm to the touch.

> I used 486 proc fans with the heat-sink removed.

Put the heat sinks on the two hot chips....

networker

01-28-2003, 01:31 PM

> zabs wrote:
> I removed the foam in both of my tivos simply because it
> is like wrapping a blanket around the hard drives and
> does not help much with the sound. If you are going to
> have the cover I, definately recomment pulling off the
> foam.

If you don't do a mod like mine, I concur.

networker

01-28-2003, 01:41 PM

> dwellar wrote:
> Leave the cover off and a lot of the sensor air is mixed
> with room temperature air. That means the air temp
> will show a much cooler reading. But the components
> are not getting cooled.

This is not true. The components are being cooled the same as the thermal sensor. Except the power supply, there are 3 main sources of heat, the hard disk and the two chips I put heatsinks on. Both the chips and the disk are cooler when running the unit without a cover because the air surrounding the components is dramatically cooler. This can be verified with the touch.

> To me, the motherboard and electronics are more
> important than the disk drives anyway.

If you care about the longevity of the chips, put heatsinks on them. A heatsink is by fat the most effective way to cool a chip.

networker

01-28-2003, 01:48 PM

> corvette wrote:
> I have the cover off on mine, looks gay but runs cooler,
> 39-45C Is there any harm to this method? besides
> probing fingers?

Cat paws, same issue as fingers. But the worst risks a metallic object such as a paper clip, a screw or a stray audio cable falling inside. If hitting the right spot, free fireworks.

FredThompson

01-28-2003, 03:02 PM

JustCuz,

What does this mean?:

"The middle wire is on the pulled pin, the wire with the red stripe is connected to a via that runs to the pad that the pin was pulled from, and the third wire is connected to the pin next to pin next to the one that's pulled. I know that in the pic, that looks like a cold solder joint on that via, but I SWEAR it's not!"

via? Huh? "via" means "by way of."

corvette

01-28-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by networker
> corvette wrote:
> I have the cover off on mine, looks gay but runs cooler,
> 39-45C Is there any harm to this method? besides
> probing fingers?

Cat paws, same issue as fingers. But the worst risks a metallic object such as a paper clip, a screw or a stray audio cable falling inside. If hitting the right spot, free fireworks.

Thanks, I would reason the cover stays off.
-corvette

BubbleLamp

01-28-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by FredThompson
via? Huh? "via" means "by way of."

A via is a hole through a multi-layer circuit board. When wave soldered, the hole wicks in the solder, completing the circuit from one layer to another. . Hence, connection "by way of" a hole.

JustCuz

01-28-2003, 05:25 PM

Yeah...what he said. :D

Just to be clear, that hole (the via) was already there...it's part of the board. Wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea and go drilling holes in their equipment. :)

zabs

01-29-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by dwellar
Here are my thoughts on running with the cover off.
I'm no expert on cooling but consider the following.

I'm guessing that the thermal sensor is near the downstream
air of the built-in fan. Most of the air from the drive(s) and
circuit board components will be pulled by the fan and
registered by the sensor -- only if the top cover is ON.

Leave the cover off and a lot of the sensor air is mixed
with room temperature air. That means the air temp
will show a much cooler reading. But the components
are not getting cooled. They are cooking in their own
stagnant air. The majority of the chip cooling will be by
convection, not forced air. To make it clear, the sensor
is running cooler, not the heat producing components.

A lot of the heat being felt by the hand on the exit side
of the case is from the power supply, not the disk drives.
Cool off the bottom of the drives and the metal mass of
the drive frame will keep the whole drive cool. Beneath
the drives is where the motherboard components are
located. To me, the motherboard and electronics are more
important than the disk drives anyway. I can easily buy
another disk drive - It will be much more expensive to
fix the motherboard should one of the main chips fail.
And a replacement unit is not easy to find, if at all.
For the above reasons, I don't think the modifications that
drill holes in the fan compartment to suck air from above
the disk drives is a good idea. Again, just my opinion.
It is a good idea to block all those air sneak paths between
the main board section and the power supply section, though.

So, I will not run with the cover off, except for some
short time troubleshooting. If anything, put more fans
in there and get the air moving over the parts. I want to
thank the original poster on this subject. It got me to think
about the cooling and what was more important to cool,
at least for me.

The temperature sensor means almost nothing (to me anyway.) Just try this. Run for 4 hours with the cover on (grinding those hard drives with both tuners going,) then quick slide it off and put your hand directly on your 7200 rpm hard drive(s) and don't blame me if the words "Western Digital" or "Maxtor" are burned into your hand. Run with out the cover and they will barely be above room temp, or at the very worst at a "pleasant hand warming temp." In my opinion, this is what matters. Yes, chips can fry if not cooled properly, but there chance of failure (due to heat) is slim to none when compared to that of the hard drives in a tivo.

The cover traps in heat that would otherwise simply rise or be wicked away by normal room air flow (so long as you haven't burried tivo in an entertainment center.)

Most computers run cooler with the side covers off when running in all but the best of cases built with optimal air flow in mind. The tivo's case isn't the best design for cooling by far. This is proven by leaving the cover on tivo and then moving your hand around the top. You will find a large hot spot where there is a big build up of heat in the back right side, where the power supply is.

Putting heatsinks on the chips is not a bad idea and a really in-expensive way to bring their temp down if you are concerned about loosing a bit of that cool air that normally would come in on the left side.

Sorry if I have a "tone," I haven't had my coffee this morn'.

Cheers!

michaelk

01-30-2003, 03:02 PM

i find the mpeg chip to be insanely hot myself.

one day i'll get off my butt and slap a heat sink on it.

But i'm wondering why tivo didnt do that in the first place? What would they cost- another 20 cents buying them in bulk?

Lucidity

02-02-2003, 02:08 PM

I modified my DSR6000 yesterday with a combination of Networker's and JC's modifications. I have yet to acquire the intake fan and heatsinks, and I also need to mount a old power supply fan into my home theatre stand to suck the hot air out.

However, the addition of JC's exhaust fan idea and Networker's hard drive cooling mods have taken TiVo from a reported temperature of 53'C to 48'C. The addition of the intake air fan, shelf exhaust fan, and heat sinks can only further lower this temperature and increase my TiVo's lifespan.

I'm sure my roommate thought I was a bit crazy at first to be cutting holes into something I paid alot of money for (especially since I picked up a rotary tool with no instructions to start cutting the TiVo with). However, it looks fine, and the TiVo still works (bonus!).

I'm going to have to lower the voltage to the added fan (486 style) as it is a bit too loud (the addition of the case top caused a hollow air noise to become present). The only other deviation was that I used a glue gun to seal up various cracks to prevent airflow, and tape for the larger areas. And yes, I ripped that stupid "hard drive blanket" foam out.

A final word: The power supply puts out a nice shock when running...! hehe.

networker

02-02-2003, 04:07 PM

> Lucidity wrote:
> I modified my DSR6000 yesterday with a combination
> of Networker's and JC's modifications.

That would be the ultimate in DirectTivo cooling.

> However, the addition of JC's exhaust fan idea and
> Networker's hard drive cooling mods have taken
> TiVo from a reported temperature of 53'C to 48'C.

Good, but the reported temperature is not the most important thing. What is really important is tactile feedback of the hot components (namely the disk(s) and the mpeg chip) after an extended period running case closed.

In my situation, the mpeg chip heat sink is cold to the touch (thanks to the auxilliary fan) and the disk barely warm.

> The only other deviation was that I used a glue gun
> to seal up various cracks to prevent airflow, and tape
> for the larger areas.

Works as well. In this "combo mod" case, I recommend not taping the hole closest to the front and not taping or glueing the separation closest to the front either, but you do need to tape the square holes underneath.

> And yes, I ripped that stupid "hard drive blanket" foam out.

In that case the holes should be bigger than the ones that I drilled (I left the foam on). Can we see some photos?

Pro-289

02-14-2003, 03:39 AM

I felt the top of mine after it was running for a few hours with the top on. I noticed, as zabs did, an unusual hot spot to the right. I think right above the power supply heatsink, where the air blows to from the hard drive cabin. Those three little chips get big hot. That's why they put fans in your computer power supply case.

Why not pop a hole and put a fan right above that "hot spot", above the power supply, and get rig of that nasty hot air and blow it straight up and out? You could probably tape the square holes under the power supply and only suck air in through the square holes on the drive side. Or you could get nutts and tape off all the square holes and put a fan on the far left side, sucking cool air in and circulating it around the drive cabin, then ultimately making its way to the power supply heat sink then straight out.

Seems you'd get some good air flow this way, and not much noise if the proper quiet fans used. But you'd get more dust, as you'd be blowing more air/dust over the chips than with the cover off or the cover on and no active cooling holes.

Could probably solve the dust issue by putting an air filter over the left intake hole. Could probably solve the noise issue too by using larger fans. Usually the larger they are the less RPMs they spin, the less noise they make, and the more air they push. Don't use those high RPM/noise 486 fans (40mm) or Pentium/AMD fans (60mm). Get yourself a good quiet case fan (80mm) or if one would fit somewhere, a 120mm fan.

FredThompson

02-14-2003, 04:17 AM

We tend to think of the square case fans but there are other shapes.

I've got one that looks like a rolling pin. It's supposed to cool hard drives and is based on a design from overhead projetors.

Maybe something like that or an edge-blower would work well.

If there's a way to control flow (maybe add a little bit of simple ducting, tablet backing might work) and use an efficient short fan, maybe there won't be as much a need to cut the case away.

ninja1992

03-10-2003, 08:58 PM

After reading this posting, I thought I would share my little cooling idea.
- Started with a HD-600 hard drive cooler ( which I just happened to have in a drawer.)
- Remove cover.
- Measure up from rear of the tivo and cut a hole slightly larger than the fan on the cooler using jig saw.
- Mounted the harddrive cooler so that the hot air is blown toward the back of the tivo. I used self tapping sheet metal screws. I used one of the holes to run the power wire inside.
- Installed a Y power connector to supply power to fan.
- Reinstalled cover.

This allows the air to be blown to the back and it allows another componet to be stacked on top with little trouble.

I also installed a better internal fan.

networker

03-11-2003, 11:47 PM

> ninja1992 wrote:
> After reading this posting, I thought I would share my little
> cooling idea.

This is a cool mod. I've seen these at Fry's; How noisy is it?

asdffdsa68

05-26-2003, 09:26 PM

This thread got me thinking about quiet fans... Here's one source for 60, 80, 92, and 120mm double BB fans:
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/computer_cooling.html

yotool

04-01-2004, 08:04 PM

I've tried many 60mm fans, new 60 mm temp controlled Vantec, stock SuperFlo, medium speed Vantec etc...

I finally ordered the 60 mm "Mag-Lev" fans from cyberdudes (cyberguys) along with the conforming 60mm silicone fan vibration isolators. I've actually installed both of the isolators (one on each end of the fan).

This is by far the quietest setup yet when plugged into the motherboard's fan connector ( and using the original fan speed control hardware/software). The internal temp is also consistently 48-50C on my series 1 DTiVo w/ networker's mods..

The networker mods actually cause a little less air to be drawn over the temperature sensor on the motherboard [the air flow over the drive(s) is where networker's mod really shines] this setup still keeps the fan speed relatively low (read quiet). It is much quieter than the stock setup and needs no case mods of extra (louder) fan installs that further violate the case integrity.

BubbleLamp

04-01-2004, 08:47 PM

I've tried many 60mm fans, new 60 mm temp controleld Vantec, stock SuperFlo, medium speed Vantec etc...

I finally ordered the 60 mm "Mag-Lev" fans from cyberdudes (cyberguys) along with the conforming 60mm silicone fan vibration isolators. I've actually installed both of the isolators (one on each end of the fan).

This is by far the quietest setup yet when plugged into the motherboard's fan connector ( and using the original fan speed control hardware/software). The internal temp is also consistently 48-50C on my series 1 DTiVo w/ networker's mods..

The networker mods actually cause a little less air to be drawn over the temperature sensor on the motherboard [the air flow over the drive(s) is where networker's mod really shines] this setup still keeps the fan speed relatively low (read quiet). It is much quieter than the stock setup and needs no case mods of extra (louder) fan installs that further violate the case integrity.

Did you happen to test the fan noise before you added the isolators? Just curious. I've gone thru 3-4 fans too, and none came close to the stock fan's low noise. I think I'll give this one a shot though. My temps never get that high except in the worst few days of summer, so output isn't as important to me as quietness.

yotool

04-01-2004, 11:44 PM

Good question.

I have to say I get an "F" on applying the "scientific method" approach.

I am going on purely subjective (but I have a wicked calibrated ear) data.

I didn't test it w/o the silicone (or 'Silica Gel') isolators. It's just a pain to keep yoinkin' fans in and out and reconnecting everything (a little risky each time too; potentially bangin' the drive or accidentally reefin' on the fan connector, or drive cables etc.).

I believe I "remember" the sound of the stock fan from 2 years of service (I feel it was louder), but you got me on the hard data. I actually have the Radio Shack sound meter but it really doesn't work much below 70 db.

The Mag Lev fans are only about $8.00 but the shipping is almost as much. I bought the 40mm Mag Lev (and 40mm fan guard) too and was thinkin' of cutting a 40mm hole just above the AC power connecter at the rear of the DSR6000 and running this cute little guy @ a fixed 5VDC to pull a little air over the rest of the power supply and essentially pull the static pressure of the exit side of the primary fan a slight bit lower which should make the primary fan flow a tad bit more air at the same fan speed. This might not be the case as it would probably pull most of its supply air from the exit side holes.

I need a chemical smoke generator and lighted mini-camera to check the air flows with the cover on...

:D

OvitivO

04-02-2004, 01:24 AM

I'm a complete believer in the Vantec 60X25 Thermoflow fan. I had a T60 that was hovering around 59/60 after installing a Maxtor 6Y160P0 drive. Unacceptable. I tried the ADDA fans and even the expensive Papst 612N/2GML fans. None were as effective at cooling the T60s as the Vantec 60X25 Thermoflow. I highly recommend these for most cooling purposes. I have yet to measure the noise levels, so I'm not so sure I would suggest using them for a bedroom TiVo.

Basically, I have 3 T60s, stacked on top of each other in the TV room. All of them hover around 39 degrees now. Amazing. The only other minor cooling mod that I used was a dam to separate the left and right sides underneath each unit.

BubbleLamp

04-02-2004, 06:17 AM

OvitivO

04-02-2004, 06:45 AM

Pretty sure I tried and hated the Vantec.

For a quiet/bedroom TiVo or just in general? The Vantec Thermoflows put out about 33 db(A), so I doubt they would be a good choice for a placid setting. The Pabst are very quiet, but they only push about 14 ft^3/min (compared to the 24 ft^3/min for Thermoflows).

I've tried quite a few fans, and so far, the Vantec Thermoflows have been great for my TV Room T60s. 60 -> 40 degrees for $6...hard to beat!

http://www.vantecusa.com/product-cooling.html

yotool

04-02-2004, 09:28 AM

The mag levs are also very loud if powered directly @ 12 VDC. I believe that they would be in the "high-speed" category. That's why I mentioned that they are connected, as the stock fan is, to the mo'bo' connector that PWM averages the 12 VDC down to anywhere from 5-12VDC.

I believe that different cooling fans have rather distinct
applied-voltage -> dba -> air flow characteristics.

When powered directly from 12VDC the fan is wicked loud and the TiVo goes down to 43/44C, but it isn't worth the noise. My observations are that the TiVo fancontrol.o module is set to close loop control the fan to a 50C setpoint.

;must again state that the networker mods are critical to keeping the most vital mechanical component (the hard drive) cool, even if the indicated temp runs a tad higher because of the redirected air flow. The TiVo temperature sensor is just upstream of the fan's inlet between the 2 MPEG decoder chips.

onknight

04-02-2004, 05:23 PM

I add a 7200 40 gig HD
Heat Was Real Problem.
After Reading I've Done the Following To Cool tivo:

(1) Remove foam From Top Cover
(2) Replace The Tivo Fan and
cut Hole in Steel Base So Your Can See the Harddisks.

(3) Add Two Harddrive Coolers and Moded
Them So They Fit over Mother Board IDE Port on Motherboard

(4) Put Tivo Back together
(5) Raised Tivo Off Ground 2 Inches.

So Far I am Running Around 30-40 C

I Let Everyone Know After Few Day How Works Out.

onknight

04-03-2004, 05:55 PM

Working for 24 Hrs 34-39 C

Thanks For All The Help

networker

04-18-2004, 12:25 AM

> yotool wrote:
> The networker mods actually cause a little less air to be drawn
> over the temperature sensor on the motherboard.

Absolutely. I have received reports that the mods actually
_increased_ the measured temperature by a degree or two. This is a
worthy trade-off to get your disk(s) 35 degrees cooler (see below).

> It's just a pain to keep yoinkin' fans in and out and reconnecting
> everything (a little risky each time too; potentially bangin' the
> drive or accidentally reefin' on the fan connector, or drive cables
> etc.).

Indeed. I fried the fan connector monkeying around with fans. Do NOT
underestimate the risk any time you open the box.

> [The Mag Lev fans]
> I believe I "remember" the sound of the stock fan from 2 years of
> service (I feel it was louder)

That's interesting; as someone else mentionned I have tried them also
(without the silicone) and found them to be louder than the stock fan.

> and was thinkin' of cutting a 40mm hole just above the AC power
> connecter at the rear of the DSR6000 and running this cute little
> guy @ a fixed 5VDC to pull a little air over the rest of the power
> supply and essentially pull the static pressure of the exit side
> of the primary fan a slight bit lower which should make the primary
> fan flow a tad bit more air at the same fan speed. This might not
> be the case as it would probably pull most of its supply air from
> the exit side holes.

Indeed. There is some danger into doing this: you do need to
cool the power supply side. The problem is that you would have
multiple pressure differentials to manage and and don't see how.
If the inside fan was on the front, I would have said to tape all
the exit holes and go out all by the new fan, but it's not the case.
If you do implement this mod, the risk is that the front part of
the power supply won't be cooled at all.

> I need a chemical smoke generator

Try the one called "Marlboro" :-) Besides annoying sides effects
such as lung cancer it works pretty good.

> and lighted mini-camera to check the air flows with the cover on...

Good luck finding one small enough :-)

> must again state that the networker mods are critical to keeping
> the most vital mechanical component (the hard drive) cool, even
> if the indicated temp runs a tad higher because of the redirected
> air flow. The TiVo temperature sensor is just upstream of the
> fan's inlet between the 2 MPEG decoder chips.

Indeed. Another critical part is heat sinks on the hot chips. The
temperature being reported is not very significant; before I did
these mods I borrowed one of these temparature measuring gizmos
that measure the temperature with a laser beam. I measured just
after pulling the cover while the unit was running and got 135
degrees on the disk and 140 degrees on one of the chips. After
modding it I got the disk to less than 100 and the chip heatsinks
to less than 90. Running 50 degrees of tivo temp is no biggie.

Michel.

JakFrost

05-08-2004, 08:24 PM

Just recently I decided to do something about cooling my DirecTiVo Sony SAT-T60. I found this thread and started doing the mods. First one was to make the hole so that the internal fans blows over the top of the hard drive, not just underneath. First, I did the same thing as Networker showed on his pics by drilling straight holes but then I thought about the holes and decided to screw it and whipped out my Dremmel and cut a nice rectangular hole instead. (See picture).

Next is to add a 40mm fan to the back of the box between the RCA and CATV connectors to blow air out of the case. Just have to get a nice 40mm fan from online. Most likley something not too loud.

Then I'm going to flip a coin and decide if I want to put in another fan above the power connector to blow air out of the back of the powersupply or maybe blow air in. I really don't want to since there doesn't seem like there is enough space back there for a 40mm fan and I would have to cut that nice white sticker back there. I don't wanna...

I haven't decided if I want to go the distance and cut holes in the bottom of the box to place fans underneath the hard drive, but at this point I don't think that'll be necessary or even warranted since it would create too much noise most likely.

networker

05-21-2004, 01:47 AM

> JakFrost wrote:
> First one was to make the hole so that the internal fans blows
> over the top of the hard drive, not just underneath.

Did you _reverse_ the direction of the internal fan? If you did, there is a big catch: you are blowing hot air from the power supply inside the case, which is not good. I have had many overheating issues with PCs that blow air from the power supply inside the case; no good. You want to _extract_ hot air from the case, not to put more in.

> First, I did the same thing as Networker showed on his pics by drilling
> straight holes but then I thought about the holes and decided to screw
> it and whipped out my Dremmel and cut a nice rectangular hole instead.

Nicer and more efficient than my holes, no doubt. If I had a Dremmel I would have done this. Your chip heatsinks are nice, too.

> Next is to add a 40mm fan to the back of the box between the
> RCA and CATV connectors to blow air out of the case.

Keep in mind: more fans, especially exhaust fans near the box exterior = more noise.

JakFrost

05-22-2004, 01:29 PM

"Did you _reverse_ the direction of the internal fan?"

No, I just drilled the hole. I didn't see a need to muck around with the internal fan since it still works and does its job pretty well. I just wanted to have air moving over the top of the drive.

"Nicer and more efficient than my holes, no doubt. If I had a Dremmel I would have done this. Your chip heatsinks are nice, too."

Yeah, I started the mod like you by drilling the holes and I had about 5-large holes done after about 2-hours of drilling then the battery on my little Black & Decker drill died. I recharged it overnight and went to town again trying to drill a few more holes but this time it just wasn't working very well and I couldn't even get one hole to drill since I'm guessing the bit was getting worn. So I decided to whip out the Dremmel, put on the black cutting disk and was amazed at how well and quick the Dremmel was able to cut through the steel. I had that entire hole done in about 20-minutes with a bit of polishing here and there instead of the hours that I spent drilling holes.

On a previous date I used the Dremmel to cut that hole above the phone jack to install the network port cleanly. If you look at the pic you'll notice the network cable running to the network jack in my TiVo. Dremmel is just great for this type of stuff. Just make sure that you use the right bits for the tough steel that you're dealing with, and they are the black discs, not the brown ones since they are too soft. (I shattered a brown cutting disc and also wasted a green polishing head on a previous try.)

Always wear eye protection when dealing with a Dremmel, and if you have wear hearing protection and use thick workman's leather gloves to protect your hands.

To get the proper cutting done with the Dremmel you have to rev some of the bits to 8,000 RPM or even 10,000 RPM and at that speed the steel dust gets pretty dangerous along with the noise. The workman's leather gloves also help to protect your hands and dampen any vibrations.

"Keep in mind: more fans, especially exhaust fans near the box exterior = more noise."

Yeah, but my TiVo is usually running between 47-49 degrees C and I think that this is just a bit too hot. I use it in my living room and I usually sit about 20-25 feet away from it so the fan noise shouldn't be too much of a problem.

networker

05-22-2004, 10:32 PM

>> networker wrote:
>> Did you _reverse_ the direction of the internal fan?

> JakFrost wrote:
> No, I just drilled the hole.

Then you misunderstood the air flow inside.

> [..]to make the hole so that the internal fans blows over the
> top of the hard drive, not just underneath

The internal fan does not blow over the top of the hard disk, is pulls air from there.

> Next is to add a 40mm fan to the back of the box between the
> RCA and CATV connectors to blow air out of the case.

That would be a disaster, as it will counter the flow of the internal fan. The other direction would not be as bad but still not a good idea as there would not be much air flow going over the chips.

> Then I'm going to flip a coin and decide if I want to put in another
> fan above the power connector to blow air out of the back of the
> powersupply

That would work.

> or maybe blow air in.

That would be a disaster: it will oppose the flow of the internal fan and your tivo would become an oven.

> I had that entire hole done in about 20-minutes with a bit of
> polishing here and there instead of the hours that I spent
> drilling holes.

You must have a lousy dril; my holes are ugly but it took me a matter of seconds to drill them.

> and was amazed at how well and quick the Dremmel was
> able to cut through the steel

It's because it's cheap aluminum....

xxBobxx

06-04-2004, 12:08 PM

I would like to know how to increase the speed of the stock fan adjacent to the power supply. As I understand the prior posts, the fan speed will increase both when the heat increases and if the fan power source is changed from the fan controller to a 12v source.

Where is and how do I use this 12v source?

I am not too concerned about the increase in noise.

Bob

networker

06-06-2004, 04:24 AM

> xxBobxx wrote:
> I would like to know how to increase the speed of the stock fan
> adjacent to the power supply. As I understand the prior posts,
> the fan speed will increase both when the heat increases and if
> the fan power source is changed from the fan controller to a 12v
> source. Where is and how do I use this 12v source?

There are two avenues:

1. Software (I don't know jack about it, but understand that stuff such as unloading fan.o can be done).

2. Hardware: grab the 12v out of the spare drive power connector. The 12v is the red wire. Standard adapters exist for this.

classicsat

06-06-2004, 11:47 AM

I did an experiment last night (the second HDD power tail was contacting the fan blades, so had to open it to repair that situation, and I suspected another piece of equipment was having heat problems, so I rigged up a fan for it, thought I might experiment with the Tivo when I had the chance).

Before, my temps read in the high 40s (mid to high 30s with one of those indoor/outdoor thermomters, with the outdoor probe installed in the Tivo)

Supposition: System temperature is read from a sensor on the HDD.

What I did was take this extra fan, and have it blow over the HDD, and the temp went down at least 10 degrees.

Conclusion: System temperature is read from a sensor on the HDD.

My Tivo is an S1 Standalone Philips, with 80GB Samsung Spinpoint 7200 RPM drive installed in the right hand bay, using silicone rubber blocks (I have plenty of that I can use) holding the drive up, and elastic bands holding it down, attacthed with hooks fashioned from wire.

Next experiment, to see if installing the HDD in the left hand bay helps.

gms

07-05-2004, 12:09 PM

My T-60 has been running at about 52C since upgrading to 2 WD 120g drives. All of my AV equipment is in a cabinet with a glass front door and the rear completely open.

As a test I wanted to see what I could do without opening the dtivo box.

Stage 1
As suggested by previous posts, I tried raising the box by putting bottle caps under the feet and a paper roll to separate the intake side from the exhaust side holes. This lowered the temp to 50C.

Stage 2
I found a cardbrd box that was the same depth as the dtivo and slightly less than the width. I cut the box height down to the size of a 80mm fan. I cut a hole in the rear of the cardbrd box and mounted the fan to pull air out of the box. I placed the box under the Tivo so that the exhaust holes were inside the box and the intake holes were outside the box. I sealed the top of the box to the bottom of the Tivo with some masking tape. The fan is powered by an small external power supply. The results were that within 15 minutes the temp had gone down to 46C and overnight down to 40C. The whole outside of the Tivo box now feels cool to the touch.

The box does 2 things. It moves more air through the dtivo and separates the intake from pulling heated air from the exhaust side.

As a permanent solution I plan to build a wooden box with foam weather stripping as seals to the exhaust holes. I used a Silencer fan from www.pcpowerandcooling.com

I still plan on using Networker's ideas inside the dtivo box.

Sony T-60
2 WD 120g 7200
Turbonet card
TivoWebPlus

Pro-289

07-18-2004, 10:43 PM

I've finally modded my T60 case. I mounted a 120mm on the top-left rear of the case with a box around it, and a left over piece of an electrostatic air filter on top. I have the fan coming from a Zalman fan speed controller on the 12v line. I think I'm feeding the fan around 7-8 volts. I adjusted the dial to where I can just start to hear the fan with my head 1 foot away. I've also taped all the air holes on the bottom except for the right side. And the Tivo is on top of my entertainment center hanging off the right edge so all the hot air gets blown down away from the filter intake. The temp is around 42c-46c.

Since it's up on top of the ent. center, I can hardly see that it looks like there's a strange box sitting on top of the Tivo. My apartment is very dusty, so I figured the filter was the most important addition. I don't have to worry about dust collecting on the components since I have air flow now. I may crank the speed dial up a bit to increase the flow. But I want to do that late at night when my ears are sensitive to noise.

I'll have to post a few pictures soon incase anyone's curious.

count0

07-20-2004, 03:23 PM

Question:

I have two harddrives in my standalone Tivo so I have no extra 4 pin power plugs left.

Will the tivo power supply handle two splitters to allow me to install a harddrive fan one each drive?

Count0

acr2001

07-20-2004, 05:03 PM

networker

07-24-2004, 07:25 PM

> acr2001 wrote:
> hmm... im glad were not diffusing bombs here...
> 12 volt is the YELLOW wire. Red is 5 volts.

Arrrgh! So true. I was looking in mine, and I meant connecting
the 12v fan on 5v so it is completely silent as mentionned here:
http://home.pacbell.net/arn-py/tivo/

> count0 wrote:
> Question: I have two harddrives in my standalone Tivo so I have
> no extra 4 pin power plugs left. Will the tivo power supply handle
> two splitters to allow me to install a harddrive fan one each drive?

Likely; a typical fan is 0.1 amp or 0.15 amp, not too much of an overload. It also depends on which disks you installed: if they are recent there are good chances that they draw less power than the 40 gig that were originally spec'ed, leaving power for your fans.