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scarabus
03-19-2003, 08:53 PM
Hello again everyone. I've not been in this forum for quite some time. (Did you miss me? Thought not.)

I was wondering whether anyone had come up with a solution for perfect frame-accurate commercial removal from DirecTiVo streams preferably without re-encoding the rest of the video.

I'm still using Maestro to do simple commercial removal, but that's only accurate to the nearest GOP header, not to the frame.

captain_video
03-19-2003, 09:58 PM
Everything I'm reading about both jdiner's latest tools and olaf's soon to be released TyStudio allude to being able to edit only on the I-frames which I'm guessing is pretty much the same as cutting on the GOP header. My understanding of mpeg streams is getting better but its still somewhat sketchy so if anyone can set me straight please feel free to jump right in (like anyone actually needs an invite to do that here). I think this may be the best we can expect due to the nature of tystreams. It seems to me that if you tried to cut anywhere but on a GOP header the video would go completely haywire from that point on, or at least until the next GOP header. Based on all of the audio sync issues I think it's pretty safe to say that the audio would lose sync as well, although any gaps in the stream should have been repaired using the latest tytool or tydemux so the audio may not end up being the issue on non-GOP edits. Since I'm not the expert on mpegs here, this is purely speculation on my part. I'll go away now.

SR712
03-20-2003, 12:14 AM
Captain-

A typical IPB sequence is IBBPBBPBBPBBIBBPBBPB.... Frames do not need to follow a static IPB pattern, but often do. Each individual frame can be of any type. Often, however, a fixed IPB sequence is used throughout the entire video stream for simplicity. Frames can be encoded in three types: intra-frames (I-frames), forward predicted frames (P-frames), and bi-directional predicted frames (B-frames). An I-frame is encoded as a single image, with no reference to any past or future frames. A P-frame is encoded relative to the past reference frame. A reference frame is a P- or I-frame. A B-frame is encoded relative to the past reference frame, the future reference frame, or both frames. The future reference frame is the closest following reference frame (I or P). Each video sequence is composed of a series of Groups of Pictures (GOP's). A GOP is composed of a sequence of pictures (frames). The GOP structure is intended to assist random access into a sequence. A GOP is independently decodable unit that can be of any size as long as it begins with an I-frame. GOPs are independently decodable if they are closed, for example a GOP with the pattern IBBP is closed, but the pattern IB is not. Typically, in most mpeg, there are approx 1 I frame per .4 seconds, so, if you were to cut only on I frames, the best resolution within the stream for editing would be about 1/2 second. You would want to start the video sequence, whether it is at the start of the stream or anywhere within it, with an I frame, as this is the most "complete" frame of information. Starting with a B or P frame is not desired, as we see this effect sometimes on our TiVos when the picture looks like there are 2 different pictures put together. This straightens out, finally, when the next I frame comes around. Editors that can edit MPEG on B or P frames, actually recompose a newly computed I frame, and insert it in the stream at that particular edit point.

captain_video
03-20-2003, 06:46 PM
So you're saying that my assumption was a correct one? Your explanation (BTW, I do appreciate the detailed info) leads me to believe that the GOP header coincides with an I-frame. I believe the currently available tools for editing tystream mpegs can only cut on the GOP header/I-frames. It would appear that these do not occur at regular intervals in a tystream due to the nature of its structure and can vary considerably in spacing from one I-frame to the next.

AlphaWolf
03-20-2003, 07:43 PM
When tystudio is released, you can use the built in editor, but you'll also be able to process the resulting mpeg in your favorite frame accurate mpeg editor without losing sync, because the resulting mpeg is perfectly legal (e.g. all frame issues are corrected), unlike previous tystream conversion software.

chjones
03-20-2003, 08:26 PM
yes, alpha, but that still involves re-encoding the entire stream. scar, to answer your question, there doesn't currently seem to be a tool that does this---in fact, to the best of my knowledge there aren't even commercial tools that do this to a "legal" stream.

Here's the theory---take a stream that looks like this:

I1-------[commercial start]---I2--...---I3---[commercial end]---I4
and cut at the exact frames that you want. You end up with

I1---------*-----I4 where each - is a P or B frame and the * isn't really there, just a marker. The problem is, any B frames immediately before * don't have the proper P or I frames to refer to, and all the -s between * and I4 don't have the proper frames to refer to.

So shouldn't it be possible to re-encode only those -s between I1 and I4 above? I think at worst you'd have to look from I1 to I2, then I3 to I4, and that this should be possible---likely doable in a few seconds, even.

The biggest problem I can think of: some MPEG applications (but I don't know which) require a constant number of P and B frames between each pair of I frames. In this particular instance, if we have too few, I think we could pad with "empty" (no change) P and B frames (since we're cutting commercials, the -s on either side of * should be almost exactly the same. However, if we have too many -, I can't think of anything to do that doesn't cut out some of the -; which is exactly the same problem as cutting at I's, even if to a lesser extent.

Okay, I really didn't mean to ramble on about my idea of how this could be done, especially as I'm sure it's occurred to others. Guys? Any suggestions or complaints as to how this would work?
CDJ

RxMan
03-20-2003, 08:37 PM
chjones,

tystudio can produce a fully compliant mpeg WITHOUT re-encoding.

AlphaWolf
03-20-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by chjones
in fact, to the best of my knowledge there aren't even commercial tools that do this to a "legal" stream.


Womble mpeg-vcr. No re-encoding necessary. Frame accurate.

Martlet
03-20-2003, 08:49 PM
SR712 explained it in the last 3 lines of his post.

The easiest way to cut an MPEG is on the I frames, because an entire GOP can be removed without affecting the MPEG. Just removing data is (relatively) easy.

When you'r trying to just get a working editor out of beta release, this is the obvious place to start. (see final comment)

Once (insert your favorite ty editor here) is totally stable, feature complete, and the author(s) recover from stress related mental problems... they may be masochistic enough to attempt mid-GOP cuts, recreating I frames to generate the new GOPs.

But really, how often do you actually find that you need to edit closer than 1/2 a second, and is it worth risking tivo hackers populating mental wards instead of working on the next great hack? :)

BubbleLamp
03-20-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by AlphaWolf
because the resulting mpeg is perfectly legal (e.g. all frame issues are corrected), unlike previous tystream conversion software.

Let it go already Alpha. That tune's getting old. :rolleyes:

AlphaWolf
03-21-2003, 12:29 AM
Well, he asked, just telling what I know *shrug*

misato
03-22-2003, 09:43 AM
FWIW, even commercial mpeg-capable editors tend to be creaky, crashy things. Editing MPEG really is just an unsolved problem, for all practical purposes. GOP cutting is the easiest (and to a large extent the only practical) cutting we have now. Well, in the case of TyStudio, I'll say "almost have now".

I suppose if you really want to do frame accurate editing and don't want to encode the whole thing again, you might clip out the cut point plus or minus a few seconds, edit that in AVI and encode that, then use something like tMpegEnc to string together the pieces. A little cludgy, but it could work. And aside from being a bit labor-intensive, would work on even a slower PC, since you'd be encoding only a few seconds of video here and there...

scarabus
03-24-2003, 02:36 PM
Very much appreciate the executive summary guys!

I'm really excited by the idea of tystudio. Tytool etc have been great so far for taking movies and putting them onto DVD, but a tool that would allow me to take clips from my SAT-T60 and import them into my favourite video editors - well, that's just a dream come true.

The tune may be old, but it's the first time I've heard it and I'm ready to join the band.

symm
08-28-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by AlphaWolf
Womble mpeg-vcr. No re-encoding necessary. Frame accurate.

This is driving me crazy. Womble mpeg-vcr is frame accurate and plays back the edited clip beautifully within the application but I cannot for the life of me get it to save the edited clip without re-encoding.


I'm using version 3.14 on DTivo 480 x 480 vob and mpg files generated from tytool 7r8.

Does anyone no how to save the edited clip with re-encoding/transcoding?

TIA!

contemplativo
08-30-2003, 08:53 PM
Alpha, do you mean that if you cut between I-frames, then some transcoding will be necessary, but only around the cut-points, so that the bulk of the media file will be left alone? Toddler has said something like this.

blahman
08-31-2003, 04:33 AM
Ok, I followed this thread to the best of my understanding. Now I have a minor question.

Why can't we edit with the current software cutting to the nearest Iframes, etc. and then frame replace any offending B or P frames with frames of black screen (thus eliminating the little bits of commercial that may survive)?

So instead of frame accurate cutting we keep the MPEG stream legal and the same, we just replace some of the offending frames that ruin our video with frame accurate replacements of plain black.

kurjiboo
08-31-2003, 04:42 AM
thats not how mpeg2 works. to save bandwidth, only I frames are a full picture. b and p frames are updates to the picture. you would have to create a new i frame and GOP (group of i, b, and p frames). so why aren't we doing this? ask the authors about that, but i think they are interested in other things first, such as dvd menus. I personal don't care about menus and am dying for frame accurate ty editors, but i've been waiting for that since i got my dtivo almost 2 x-mas ago.

TRILIGHT
09-01-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by kurjiboo
....ask the authors about that, but i think they are interested in other things first, such as dvd menus. I personal don't care about menus and am dying for frame accurate ty editors, but i've been waiting for that since i got my dtivo almost 2 x-mas ago.

I couldn't agree with this more! I know they mean well but I have to say that "reinventing the wheel" is a real waste of time. There are tons of great DVD authoring software out there and creating a menu is NOT hard. Even if you wanted to get creative and do motion menus. Their time would be so much better spent if they were to come up with frame accurate ty stream editing. In fact, I would say that would be the ULTIMATE creation in my opinion!!

Right now, I use TyTool to extract and then do the editing using M2-Edit. It's sort of a pain in the ass but it does work flawlessly. If someone were to write Windows software that would allow for frame accurate editing of a Ty stream and then output the edits to a video file and corresponding audio file, I would pay BIG BUCKS for that!!! :) It would save me a great amount of time.

jdiner
09-01-2003, 04:56 PM
Re-inventing the wheel is not my goal nor my purpose. It is a side-effect of what I am personally trying to do. I have gone over this before but I wanted to give a brief statement here and now.

The main problem is that the DTV stream is far from perfect. I don't just mean the obscure features in use like the rff/tff flags. I mean the damage that can and does occur during downloading. I have one TyStream that for some reason had about 8 seconds of video just missing. The audio is all there but the video is smashed.

This damage occured near the end of a large large GOP and included the SEQ/GOP/I-Frame header that was "almost there" and then what looks to be 3 full GOPs, and then about 18 frames of the next gop once again killing the SEQ/GOP/I-Frame block.

I have tried this clip in darn near everything I could find for trimming/processing/making/creating/whatever DVD disks. It worked correctly in none of these tools. Every single one got off on the audio and stayed off for the rest of the clip.

The bad news there, this damage occured in the "last season on Smallville" most initial part at about 15 seconds into the real show data. Now I can cut this, but I don't want to in this case.

I have a dozen other shows that are mine and came right off of my DTivo that have the same general type of damage in the middle of show. Much much harder to cut.

Now there are other ways of handling this than my tools. But my conclusion was simple. I can control and patch the problem database because of what I can glean from the TyStream. Other DVD tools can't.

You can make a perfectly sync'ed MPEG file from my stuff around the above problem. But as mentioned as soon as I import it into any of the other tools they throw every needed to maintin sync away. This sucks.

That is why I keep working on my own stuff. I have no ruled out using other tools, infact I am working towards making it as easy as possible to get my output to work with their stuff.

I have a few more things that I know I need to do but with each release it should all work a bit better.

I have built the rudimentary parts of a frame-accurate editor. I did it some time ago. It is going to be a pain. A real pain to complete. Mostly due to all of the external tieing into an mpeg2 encoder.

I might finish it. But if I did I think I would probably want to charge a bit for it. It is just going to be that much work.

--jdiner

skorous
09-01-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by TRILIGHT
I couldn't agree with this more! I know they mean well but I have to say that "reinventing the wheel" is a real waste of time. There are tons of great DVD authoring software out there and creating a menu is NOT hard. Even if you wanted to get creative and do motion menus. Their time would be so much better spent if they were to come up with frame accurate ty stream editing. In fact, I would say that would be the ULTIMATE creation in my opinion!!


Trilight,

Just a small word of advice. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive but try to remember that these people are doing you a favor giving you any tools at all. You came off sounding kind of bad (though just my opinion) in a couple of ways:

1) saying that the authors current focus was "a waste of time" is, well, rude.

2) saying that "they mean well" gives the impression that you understand what's best more than they do.

3) You might be better off asking why their focus is spent in certain ways rather than saying "Their time would be so much better spent".

I'm not saying this to be a **** especially since I don't think you meant any of those things necessarily in a bad way. However, I have seen several occassions where a couple of poorly worded messages have caught jdiner, rc3105, etc... on a bad day and caused all kinds of problems.

I will apologize in advance if I offend you. Just my $.02.

Skorous

TRILIGHT
09-01-2003, 07:10 PM
@jdiner: Thanks for the info on the streams. I was not referring to the "us vs. them" thing I've seen go on around here either. I was referring to the work on DVD authoring. I've seen a lot of people spend a lot of time on doing stuff like that and they end up bogged down in the craziness. The end result is usually a project that never gets finished. I'm not saying that is what you would do necessarily. I'm just saying that, if there was a way to simply extract a Ty stream and have it "good" and then edit that stream, and then output the result to a final m2v video file and wav (or AC3 if time permitted) for use in DVD authoring software, that is what I would want the most. The ability to create DVD menus and such is all something that would take place in the authoring software.

@skorous: Chill, dude. Jdiner knows very well that I appreciate the work he's done. I've said it time and time again and have promoted the work he's done with others I work with. I won't pretend not to be a "gruff" sorta character. I am blunt and I don't play well with others sometimes. LOL! :D As such though, if I was looking to rag on someone or call their efforts "crap" in any way, you'd certainly know that was the intent. I don't beat around the bush. ;)

symm
09-02-2003, 03:14 PM
jdiner: Am I correct in interpreting the major work you describe above is for working with external tools?


I have built the rudimentary parts of a frame-accurate editor. I did it some time ago. It is going to be a pain. A real pain to complete. Mostly due to all of the external tieing into an mpeg2 encoder.

Just speaking for myself I would be happy if tytool could do "near" frame accurate cuts as a self-enclosed tool set. My problem is that my Dtivo files only have a granularity of about 2 seconds for cuts in tytool7r8. That's the main reason I've looked to outside tools for editing.

blahman
09-05-2003, 12:31 AM
jdiner, I just wanted to say thanks for all your hard work.

As a testament to the quality of your tools I just completed my first DVD of shows extracted from my DTivo.

I cheated to get no commercials in it and yet your tools worked beautifully.

Here is what I did. I extracted with MFS_FTP as TY+ from my DTivo (No offense, just like MFS_FTP for transfers myself).
I then created Key Files using TYTool 7r8.
I then used TyTool GOP Editor to find all the parts I needed to cut. I actually make multiple cuts for the same commercial segments so I have the full range from end of show to beginning of commercial with each possible Iframe choice.

Now here is where I broke from the norm. I take my .cut file with all the extra cuts and copy it off. I then go back into GOP Editor and select only the best cuts for each commercial segment and save it again.

Then I manually calculate the timestamping based on the difference in the cuts to get the best possibly cuts. I edit the .cut file to reflect these timestampts. I then Multiplex in TyTool. Check the MPEG, and repeat manually changing as necessary till I get complete commercial free perfect episodes. Once I have a show that I am happy with I use TyTool to create the VOB. I do a check of the VOB and make sure no issues are introduced.

Once I had all the shows I needed to create a Disc I used TyTool to create the ISO (well directory full of files ready to burn). Last I used Nero to burn using DVD (UDF/ISO) mode [DVD Video mode always produces DVDs with compliance issues according to some software I have].

I burned it and it played perfectly in my player. 100% commercial free and while going about it the hard way it was as close to frame accurate as possible. Although I don't want to say that disc will work in every DVD player as things are hacked doing it the way I did.

Now this again points back to the many times I have suggested why can we not just trim out the commercials as long as both the end (postshow,pre-commercial) and beginning (post-commercial,pre-show) both have a black frame (thus prediction each way would still be the same, fading in/out from a black frame. It seems to have worked just fine when I simply sliced by editing time-stamps before the split/mux.

The only issue I had was with the Menu. It had 9 items. The first 6 in column 1, the last 3 in column 2. Not Bad, a little ugly on the fonts, colors, and sizes, but doable. On the PC using PowerDVD v5.0 the menu was corrupted and looked like garbled text on several lines. This same garbled text also appeared as menu items on the PS2 when I tried the DVD there. Both played the DVD fine though and since the menu items highlighted I could still tell from knowing what the disc was what shows I was selecting. The last player I tried it in was an Aiwa 370. The Aiwa 370 showed the menu just fine but did not highlight any menu item when it was selected so there was no way to know what show you are going to get without guessing or keeping count. This also played the Shows just fine.

Any chance of getting a version of GOP Editor that would save a lot of manual work and let each frame be visible (even if it only let cuts be in each I-Frame). Maybe have it as an option that needs to be enabled. It'd make it easier for me to cheat. :)

jdiner
09-05-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by symm
jdiner: Am I correct in interpreting the major work you describe above is for working with external tools?

Just speaking for myself I would be happy if tytool could do "near" frame accurate cuts as a self-enclosed tool set. My problem is that my Dtivo files only have a granularity of about 2 seconds for cuts in tytool7r8. That's the main reason I've looked to outside tools for editing.

The problem is deciding on the best way to do frame accurate editing. I have spent a ton of time in the car over the last week for work and while driving I have come up with a few things that I think are pretty clever. If they work I should be able to add frame accurate stuff more easily than I was thinking. It is still going to be a pretty serious amount of work but it should be doable.

--jdiner

TRILIGHT
09-08-2003, 06:32 PM
If anyone is curious, I've listed my new TiVo-to-DVDR process on my website (in my signature). It includes all screenshots and explanations to walk you through the process. Throughout all of my testing, it has proven to be the only reliable and consistent way I've found for frame accurate editing with NO sync problems or asset import problems at all! I hope the process proves to be as useful to others as it has for me.

bato
09-08-2003, 08:06 PM
TRILIGHT are you telling that all your tests you never had sync problems? I have some old tys that have sync problems if I edit with software other than TyTool7r8 create IFOs/dirs.

Maybe is my mpeg2vcr version, or the time when I recorded this shows, or the Dtivo's version then, don't know.

I'll test some more with newer files.

TRILIGHT
09-08-2003, 08:38 PM
I can't say concerning older versions of TyTool or MPEG-VCR. I am basing my observations solely on the latest version of these tools. The versions that I am using of each have produced perfect files every time though. I've done 12 different extractions this way and have not run into a sync problem yet. Granted, that's not a TON of extractions but trying any other method I tested, I got sync problems or some other type of problem easily within the first few files I tried.

bato
09-08-2003, 09:03 PM
Thanks for the info, I'm using latest version but with year old recordings is what I have more trouble.

Your Dtivo is at version 2.5.2 or 3.1?

TRILIGHT
09-08-2003, 09:12 PM
I am at 2.5.2 and my recordings have been from within the past couple of months. Now I need to state something here that could potentially be important. (I really do not know) I just read over my guide and I realized that I listed to multiplex while doing the extraction. However, this one step is different from what I've done with my testing! All of my files were extracted as TY files by TyTool and then I ran TyTool on those TY files to multiplex them.

Now, I would think this would not make a difference but there were also times that the tools (GOP Editor and TyStudio Editor) would work and then NOT work for me. I feel it's important to clarify that all of my files were extracted as TY and then I multiplexed them. If anyone (bato?) can let me know if this makes a difference, I would appreciate it. I know the way I did it produced flawless results but that one step is indeed different.

bato
09-08-2003, 10:00 PM
I think it doesn't matter if you extract the ty then multiplex or select multiplex mode with TyTool getting only a mpg directly from the Tivo (Toddler use multiplex mode and he is happy with the results), so if your tests were with downloaded tys then multiplex then there is no difference..

My problem files are ty extracted a year ago, maybe that's where my problem is, or something I had in my Dtivo.

I'll download a couple recordings right now, maybe I still have something in my Dtivo that's causing problems. Too bad I can't frame edit my Dead Zone recordings.

jdiner
09-08-2003, 11:15 PM
So who all really wants frame accurate editing?

What is it worth to you?

Are you really willing to put up with the speed impact of re-encoding certain frames including the audio sections.

--jdiner

TRILIGHT
09-08-2003, 11:54 PM
Considering the framerate is almost a full 30 frames every second, I don't see where it's a big loss to re-encode a few to close out a GOP. I'm sure this is what MPEG-VCR is doing on my process but I've noticed no speed impact whatsoever while it is processing my edits. It's just as fast as if I had just copied the file somewhere.

I'm not knocking your tool, Jdiner. Not at all. Heck, I still use it for my TY extraction because I've found it to be the fastest and most reliable out there for that purpose. However, until I can use video edited in GOP editor in Maestro without errors, it won't do a lot of good whether the edits are frame accurate or not.

Another big thing I see personally, from a true DVD authoring standpoint is needing to get two elementals (one video, one audio) for the whole export. Without this, all files must be placed on the timeline, then corresponding audio must be selected, then a sync audio track has to be created, then that has to be encoded. It's all a lot of unnecessary steps that are eliminated with having just two elementals. At the very least, I'd like to see it as an option that could be chosen. Just my 2 cents. ;)

bato
09-08-2003, 11:57 PM
If the GOPs in DTivo were always 15frames I think I didn't care about frame accurate editing, but sometimes GOPs are 60 frames or more, and you will end with a bad cut (keeping some frames you don't want, or cutting some you do) because there is a lot in 2 seconds.

I can live with GOP editing most of the time, but frame accurate is always something I want for that special show that I love and I want to make it as goos as I can.

As you can see there are people using mpeg2vcr for frame accurate editing, but I have some weird issues with my old recordings, sync problems no matter what, I tested like this (already have the ty extracted back in Oct-Nov '02):
1) multiplex with TyTool7r8, frame edit with mpeg2vcr = sync problems
2) vsplit with TyTool7r8, mux with TMPGEnc, check sync with PowerDVD (no problems), cut with mpeg2vcr = sync problems
I always had good cuts with mpeg2vcr IF the file can be demux/remux with other tool (like TMPGEnc), this is the first time I saw this happening.

I can create a DVD with this files with TyTool7r8 without sync problems, thanks for that.

So to answer your questions:
- I want frame accurate editing (but not that much)
- in money? how about 20-30
- I don't think it will take too much time, I expect mpeg2vcr times for it.

Maybe I don't even need frame accurate, only a nice fade to/from cuts (audio also).

jdiner
09-09-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Considering the framerate is almost a full 30 frames every second, I don't see where it's a big loss to re-encode a few to close out a GOP.

I am fairly certain this is indeed what it is doing. But this is not what I asked. Or at the very least not what I intended to ask.



Another big thing I see personally, from a true DVD authoring standpoint is needing to get two elementals (one video, one audio) for the whole export. Without this, all files must be placed on the timeline, then corresponding audio must be selected, then a sync audio track has to be created, then that has to be encoded. It's all a lot of unnecessary steps that are eliminated with having just two elementals. At the very least, I'd like to see it as an option that could be chosen. Just my 2 cents. ;)
You are of course aware that the very first thing it did, the very first thing all of these various tools did was to produce the elemental streams. Hence the term splitting. If you do a bit of a search you will see a ton of posts by myself and many others referencing elemental streams.

TyTool and VSplit will allow you to download, cut, and then produce seperate ES's automatically. Each "piece" between cut segments will be generated as a seperate file. The A/V offset between the ES's for each segment is then displayed. Allowing for an easy process and a simple way to sync the segments. Thus producing the elementals you wanted. All of this is already in there.

I don't mind the occasional plug for a feature someone wants, but I take umbrage at such blanket statements. Maestro is only one way to do it. But luckily in this case it is the way to do "true dvd authoring".

Sadly I disagree, perfect playback of the stream itself is far more important to me than what I consider to be extraneous options. But whether they are or not is just my personal opinion. Could I make it work with maestro, probably. Infact I do believe I have figured out what it is that it does not like and what should be done about it.

But my focus is obviously elsewhere. Read back over my past posts regarding this and other tools. I did put maestro through it's paces. Not looking at features but looking at what it did with the oft troubled streams we get from tivos. It did not perform well. Not at all. Check the post and I would be happy to discuss the specifics further.

--jdiner

jdiner
09-09-2003, 03:24 AM
Bato:


Originally posted by bato

1) multiplex with TyTool7r8, frame edit with mpeg2vcr = sync problems

Have you tried the latest version I emailed to you? It should have come much closer to resolving the problems with mpeg2vcr. But I can't be certain it fixed them all. Trying to do is extremely frustrating because little to no information comes back from mpeg2vcr about what went wrong. It is just off.



Maybe I don't even need frame accurate, only a nice fade to/from cuts (audio also).
A few others have asked about this. The problem is that it requires re-encoding each frame. There are special commands on a DVD. Slow motion forwards and back, etc... But none of them are a fade. At least none I have documentation for. So it would mean re-encoding even more frames. And that is not a great idea.

Btw, money wasn't my question about what is it worth. Sorry I should have been more clear.

There would be some pretty serious time needed to check it and check it and check it to make sure we got it right. Look at all of the iterations for a GOP accurate editor. I learned alot from doing that but frame accurate is a whole new beast.

--jdiner

Ozy666
09-09-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by jdiner
Bato:


Have you tried the latest version I emailed to you? It should have come much closer to resolving the problems with mpeg2vcr. But I can't be certain it fixed them all. Trying to do is extremely frustrating because little to no information comes back from mpeg2vcr about what went wrong. It is just off.


A few others have asked about this. The problem is that it requires re-encoding each frame. There are special commands on a DVD. Slow motion forwards and back, etc... But none of them are a fade. At least none I have documentation for. So it would mean re-encoding even more frames. And that is not a great idea.

Btw, money wasn't my question about what is it worth. Sorry I should have been more clear.

There would be some pretty serious time needed to check it and check it and check it to make sure we got it right. Look at all of the iterations for a GOP accurate editor. I learned alot from doing that but frame accurate is a whole new beast.

--jdiner

I'm up for the frame-accurate editing. I've got a bunch of stargate, justice league, monk, and other .ty streams that I can play around with.

Ozy

bato
09-09-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by jdiner
Bato:

Have you tried the latest version I emailed to you? It should have come much closer to resolving the problems with mpeg2vcr. But I can't be certain it fixed them all. Trying to do is extremely frustrating because little to no information comes back from mpeg2vcr about what went wrong. It is just off.
The last file I received from you was back on 07/22, and back then we (I mean you) were trying to fix some problems with dishplayer files muxed with mpeg2vcr. I don't know if this is the one you are talking about.

The weird thing about this is that I can vsplit the ty, mux with TMPGEnc and there are no sync problems, so I guess this time something weird mpeg2vcr do when cutting this mpg (with TyTool multiplex or TMPGEnc mux), I'll try later to mux with mpeg2vcr, cut with it and then output the mpg file to see if there is any difference.

I think the best thing about TyTool is that I can get a perfect sync DVD at the end (with only TyTool or using DVDlab). What you want to add is up to you, I guess the fade will be harder than frame editing but I don't know, the only "issue" I have today is that sometimes when I cut a scene at a no fade to black point and the next scene is not fade from black I get some pixelation at that point, I think I asked once if this issue could be that the cut point the GOP is not closed, so the decode process read that the GOP is open but the next GOP has nothing to do with this and that's why it show some pixelation. I guess if you add some encoding for frame editing this will be fixed right? I don't know if I make myself clear, but I can frame capture for you.

TRILIGHT
09-10-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by bato
TRILIGHT are you telling that all your tests you never had sync problems?

Hey Bato! I thought I'd share something odd I ran into last night. While playing back (in MPEG-VCR) a section of an MPEG I had edited, I noticed that, out of nowhere, the sync just "jumped the track"! I rewound to that spot and sure enough, it did it every single time! However, when I played the same MPG back in WinDVD, it was perfect. I then checked the same spot in my authoring software and the AC3 and video were perfect there also! I have no clue how or why it was incorrect in MPEG-VCR but the end result was fine when played in other players. Was your sync incorrect in ALL other players? It might be something to consider.

bato
09-10-2003, 06:33 PM
TRILIGHT, thanks for the info, is funny, this just happened to me but with a dishplayer file, for me, if PowerDVD keeps sync I bet 99% the final DVD will have the right sync.

My problem is with this old ty, I just tried everything with 2 files and the end result was sync problems after edit with mpeg2vcr, playing with mpeg2vcr, PowerDVD and even Maestro, the demuxed elementals have the same lenght but there is some "silence" in one cut for about 2 sec!, so that cut is very bad, all cuts in that test are sync perfect. With the other file I get some progress cutting in other places but that is no good for a frame accurate editing program.

I hope I have time today to extract some new shows and test mpeg2vcr again with them. I know mpeg2vcr works because I can edit my dishplayer files ok with it.

This is the first time that vsplit output muxed without sync problems with any tool (tested with TMPGEnc) fail edit. So maybe there is some "header/pointer" that mpeg2vcr can't handle? I don't know.

What I think I'll do for this show, is save the ty on DVDs and TyTool the best I can, maybe in the future I can frame edit those ty and end with a better DVD (will I have the time to see the complete series again, maybe not, but at least I'll have it available if I want to).

Too much hassle? hey!, it's my hobbie :p

TRILIGHT
09-10-2003, 06:43 PM
I agree. I love doing DVD stuff so that's a big reason I like to have cool menus too. I think the menu is half of the appeal! Otherwise it's a glorified VCR recording. hehe ;) Anyway, I don't know if you ever read the manual sync process I had listed on my website. It would work with your files no matter how screwy they were. It's just that it's a bit of work. I will make the page available and give you a link if you like. I mean, if you really want to have those episodes with frame accurate edits and perfect sync, it CAN be done. Just takes a bit of work. Let me know.

Stephen
09-10-2003, 07:55 PM
Ive looked all around I cant find the screen shot that you have on your web site care to tell me how to get to it?

TRILIGHT
09-10-2003, 08:27 PM
If you're referring to DVD Patcher, it's here...

http://kickme.to/DVDPatcher

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. The old page had a link for it. I've added a link in that section to the DVDPatcher website.

bato
09-10-2003, 11:08 PM
Well I didn't give up, so I kept testing and testing but not a DVD yet :D

What I tested:
1- TyTool mpg, edit mpeg2vcr = sync problems
2- TyTool split, mux TMPGEnc, edit mpeg2vcr = sync problems
3- TyTool split, mux mpeg2vcr, edit mpeg2vcr = sync problems

so to make it work I did:
take the last test (3) keep the edited file window open, select a little less of every clip and copy to Video Clipboard, load each video clip and save each, make sure sync is ok, then create a clip list and save the list to a mpg, now I have a perfect-sync-very-close-to-frame-accurate mpg file, that I will test with DVDlab and demux and test with Maestro. I'll update this post as soon as I test this.

EDIT: DVDlab worked withot sync issues with "flexible, any source" multiplexer
DVDMaestro scan the video file and only display the first clip, I can't make the second clip to work, but I guess I can import each clip in Maestro and then create the DVD

TRILIGHT
09-11-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by bato
DVDMaestro scan the video file and only display the first clip, I can't make the second clip to work, but I guess I can import each clip in Maestro and then create the DVD

Awesome! Glad to hear you finally got something to work on those problem files, Bato! As for Maestro, I'm not sure I understand the first part of what you said. The best way I've found for working with multiple clips though is to import each video clip and place them in order on the timeline. Then right-click and select "create sync audio track" and assign each audio file to it's corresponding clip. That will make a single clip and you'll be ready to compile it with whatever else you do in the project.

I really like DVD-Lab's interface. I just wish it was a bit more powerful. I've not actually done a complete project in it but I plan to continue testing with it. I have some more to do but the last time I tried something in it, it complained about GOP length on the clip and it would not compile the project. :( Have you ever seen that?

contemplativo
09-11-2003, 02:42 AM
Trilight, I wonder if DVD-Lab would compile if one first used mpeg2vcr's GOP fixer to chop up some of the non-spec super-long GOP's found in dtivo-extracted mpegs.

contemplativo
09-11-2003, 02:49 AM
Trilight, I wonder if DVD-Lab would compile if one first used mpeg2vcr's GOP fixer to chop up some of the non-spec super-long GOP's found in dtivo-extracted mpegs.

FredThompson
09-11-2003, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by TRILIGHT
I'm not knocking your tool, Jdiner.Some people pay good money for that. :eek:

Fugg
09-11-2003, 10:49 AM
Using mpeg2vcr 3.14(april '03), this method works for about 80% of my dtivo files.

Use Tytool 7r8 to go straight to an mux'ed mpeg. No cuts.

In mpeg2vcr, click "Tools", then "MPEG GOP Fixer".

Open your mux'ed mpeg into the input box, select "All Above: Scan ==> Fix ==> GOP Resize", then enter a filename/location for your fixed file in the output box.

Then hit the "Scan" button. It takes about 5 minutes on a xp2500 for a 30min, ~500meg file.

Once it's done, check the fixed file for sync in your favorite player. If you still have sync all the way through, your good to go. If you've lost sync at this point, this method will not work on that file without effectively cutting out the offending gop('s) before fixing.

Open the file (w/good sync) in mpeg2vcr to edit, but instead of making the cuts on the file itself, select the first show segment you want to keep using the "Mark In" and "Mark Out" points and then hit the "Copy" button. This will put a "copy" of the segment you have selected onto the clip window on the left hand side of the mpeg2vcr main window. Continue these steps until you have all the segments you want to keep in the clip window. (they will be numbered in the order saved)

Minimize the original mpeg window. (you should be able to close this clip at this point, but I've found it works better if you just minimize the original clip instead of closing it)

Right-click and drag the first segment onto the mpeg2vcr window. It may take it a few seconds to open, just give it time. Move the slider to the end of the clip.

Right-click and drag the next segment onto the first segment's window. It may take it a few seconds to open, just give it time. (If you have a slow computer, it can take quite a few minutes!) A "MPEG-VCR Insert" window will open up. Move the "Insertion" slider to the far right. (this tells it to insert AFTER the first segment) Then click "OK". Once again, it may take a few minutes, but you'll see it added to the first segment.

Repeat the last step for each segment.

Once they're all in place move the slider for the finished file to the end of the clip. Set this as the "Mark Out" point. Move the slider to the beginning of the clip and set this as the "Mark In" point.

Hit the "Save" button, then enter a filename/location for your edited file and hit "Save". If you do not change any of the audio or video settings, it should not re-encode.

NOTE:
If your using a standalone file (32k audio), you can change the bitrate to 48k in the above step. Click on the "Audio" button in the "Save" window and change the bitrate setting to 48k before hitting "Save". (I haven't tried this, but it should work)

Why do 20% of the files not work? I think jdiner hit the nail on the head on page one of this thread. The "spots" where there's missing video but complete audio really freak mpeg2vcr out. It has no idea how to handle a corrupted gop and ends up just dropping the whole thing. In the dtivo world, this can be as much as 2 or 3 seconds of video. Since the audio is good, it leaves it alone and just mux'es it together with the video, paying no attention to the gap it introduced by dropping the video gop. .... causing the sync to be off for the remainder of the file.

Why run the file through the "GOP Fixer" first? I think the long gop's are where the mpeg2vcr editor freaks out. It's looking for something at least close to the dvd standard 15 frames maximum gop length and drops any video gop that does not at least come close to this count. Since it's dropping video and not audio, the sync goes way outta whack at any point where we've got a long gop, and that happens quite frequently in the dtivo world.;)

I hope this helps. ...but keep in mind, I'm by no means an expert!:)

...let me add to this a public apology to jdiner. I was trading messages with him on this very subject last week, but then promptly fell off the planet for a week. Work kicked up again and I was buried for a while. I'm sorry buddy, I should have at least dropped you a note.

TRILIGHT
09-11-2003, 11:22 AM
Fugg,

What you say seems to have some logic to it but where I am confused is when you say this is an anomaly that happens often in the DTivo world. Surely I do not have a magic DTivo that shields me from this. I've edited about 15 extractions now, all from the last couple of months and some as long as 2.5 hours. Throughout all of my work (and without using the GOP fixer), I have not encountered a single sync problem. With as often as you say this is a common occurence, I am puzzled why I have not run into it yet.

I am "flexible" and not married to a given process. So far though, what I am doing has proven quick, reliable, and consistent in giving me what I want so I am reluctant to change anything until I personally see a given problem for myself. Are there certain channels you are recording that I can test? Most of my recordings are from PPV, SciFi, VH1, MTV, Disc, Hist, and the locals. I usually have cuts at the beginning, end, and at the "fade to black" sections where commercials are. All of my edits have been fine and in sync. There's a nice "fade to black" and "fade in" at these points and everything seems fine. Let me know so I can try to force a sync error in MPEG-VCR.

Fugg
09-11-2003, 11:52 AM
The anomaly I'm seeing is just the length of the gop's in a dtivo file. On any dtivo file that I've tried, the version of mpeg2vcr that I'm using(3.14 april '03) hoses up on long gop's. What version are you using? (edit: found it on your page "V3.14 (07/2003)") Is it a newer one than I'm using?(yes!) I've got my fingers crossed that we're looking at a version difference. I'll try to get the latest version and try again with a few files.

(Your statement "I have not encountered a single sync problem." is getting me more than a little excited!;))

"So far though, what I am doing has proven quick, reliable, and consistent in giving me what I want so I am reluctant to change anything until I personally see a given problem for myself."

If what you're doing works, by all means don't change it!!

I'm recording off my locals, SciFi, HBO, Bravo,... same old stuff.

...I gotta go find the newer mpeg2vcr..... Thanks TRILIGHT!!!

ronnythunder
09-11-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by FredThompson
Some people pay good money for that. :eek: rotflmao! now that's funny, senator! :)

ronny

bato
09-11-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by contemplativo
Trilight, I wonder if DVD-Lab would compile if one first used mpeg2vcr's GOP fixer to chop up some of the non-spec super-long GOP's found in dtivo-extracted mpegs.
DVDlab release will not be able to mux Dtivo files, there are a lot of large GOPs in Dtivo files (unless you use mpeg2vcr fix DVD size option 3 first).

You can compile with DVDlab beta (1.3b2) selecting the "flexible, any source" multiplexer in the compile window (is an option not present in the current release). Even some Dtivo files will compile with the Fast muxer, but if there is any extra long GOP then it will show an error "GOP size memory" or something like that and in the final VOB you will not have audio after that point.

If you select flexible muxer and the final DVD not play audio but the audio is present when you play the VOB directly, then you need to go to Tools - IFO editor/audio and select 1 audio track, press mpeg audio or ac3 depending on what you have then DVDlab will uptadte IFOs and BUPs and you now will have audio.

bato
09-11-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by TRILIGHT
...As for Maestro, I'm not sure I understand the first part of what you said. ...
...it complained about GOP length on the clip and it would not compile the project. :( Have you ever seen that?
Let's say I saved clip1.mpg and clip2.mpg with mpeg2vcr, perfect sync in both, then I use mpeg2vcr function to create a clip list, open the clip list and it show a window with clip1.mpg and clip2.mpg together, just as if I cutted everything else in the original mpg, so I select all to save like always the result is 1 mpg file with clip1.mpg and clip2.mpg that I called clip1-2.mpg, it plays with perfect sync witn mpeg2vcr and PowerDVD.

Then I take this clip1-2.mpg file that is 20min long and demux it, import m2v and m2a into maestro, m2a lenght is 20min but m2v show only 13min long, I preview the video and it only show the first clip! I can't make Maestro see the rest of it! if I use PowerDVD to watch the m2v I can see all 20min without problems, even DVDlab compile this m2v and m2a together with perfect sync to a final DVD, I can't understand what is happening, maybe my lack of common sense :D

With DVDlab you need beta version (I use 1.3b2), when you press compile change the multiplexer option to the "flexible, any source", it will compile fine no matter how big are your GOPs. You may end without audio in your DVD but your VOB will have audio, to fix this select in DVDlab Tools - IFO editor/audio then select 1 audio track and press mpg audio button or ac3 audio (the same type as you used) and you can even change there if the audio is in English or other type.

bato
09-11-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Fugg
...I gotta go find the newer mpeg2vcr..... Thanks TRILIGHT!!!
The latest version is 08/2003 built on 09/01/2003.

My problems are with old ty files, I tested mpeg2vcr before with 06/2003 version in 3 ty and I use it for dishplayer files without any sync problem, I'm also inclined to believe is something about the extra long GOPs.

My rule before these problems was: "if I can GOP fix the mpg, or I can mux vsplited files without sync problems then the editing will be perfect", well, not anymore for me.

I hope I find a way to edit this problem files, that maybe will work for other files and we will not have to GOP fix DVD size to make it work, or at least go from 80% you have close to 100%. Now I have the Maestro problem I'll try to find a workaround for it too.

Keep the tests/ideas/comments coming.

TRILIGHT
09-11-2003, 01:05 PM
Just FYI... I don't do copying and pasting of clips so I'm not sure if that affects anything. Also, looking through my settings, I notice that I have selected "Patch Audio Holes" in the TyTool client. I honestly do not remember if this was by default or if I selected it. Under "MUX", I have "Standard Mux Output". I also do not do any GOP fixing in MPEG-VCR. I just use the MPG files as they are.

sanderton
09-11-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Fugg

Open the file (w/good sync) in mpeg2vcr to edit, but instead of making the cuts on the file itself, select the first show segment you want to keep using the "Mark In" and "Mark Out" points and then hit the "Copy" button. This will put a "copy" of the segment you have selected onto the clip window on the left hand side of the mpeg2vcr main window. Continue these steps until you have all the segments you want to keep in the clip window. (they will be numbered in the order saved)

Minimize the original mpeg window. (you should be able to close this clip at this point, but I've found it works better if you just minimize the original clip instead of closing it)

Right-click and drag the first segment onto the mpeg2vcr window. It may take it a few seconds to open, just give it time. Move the slider to the end of the clip.

Right-click and drag the next segment onto the first segment's window. It may take it a few seconds to open, just give it time. (If you have a slow computer, it can take quite a few minutes!) A "MPEG-VCR Insert" window will open up. Move the "Insertion" slider to the far right. (this tells it to insert AFTER the first segment) Then click "OK". Once again, it may take a few minutes, but you'll see it added to the first segment.

Repeat the last step for each segment.

What do find is different about re-compliling form copies rather than just saving with cuts? I've had no problems just saving.

Fugg
09-11-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by sanderton
What do find is different about re-compliling form copies rather than just saving with cuts?...
Find I did problem was mostly the version I was using. (;))

I seem to be having much less problems with 3.14 8-03.

I have one file here(at work) to play with, so I can't do much now, but I'll beat the hell out of it tonite when I get home!!
:)


TRILIGHT,
Your sentence, "I notice that I have selected "Patch Audio Holes" in the TyTool client." caught my attention.

I'll try tonight to see if it makes a difference. (it's off by default) Just for poops and giggles, you want to try it with it turned off?

added later:
By joe, IT WORKED!!!!!!!

I got home and tried a known hosed ty file,
Straight to an mpeg w/"Patch Audio Holes" enabled,
Straight to mpeg2vcr for editing, skipping the "GOP Fixer",
Edited the easy way,(ala TRILIGHT's post above)
Imported into spruceup,
Created a title set.

Good sync, no problems at all!!!!!!

"Patch Audio Holes" and version 3.14 (8-03) is the key to frame accurate editing in mpeg2vcr, it seems.

I've got a wad of files to test on! ...but I think this is it!!

THANKS, TRILIGHT!!!!!!
:D

added even later:
I've been thru 12 ty's so far. It's worked on all but one. The tytool output'd file looks fine, but after saving the edited file, the audio drops off after the edit and is gone for the remainder of that segment.

I tried a few without the hole patching. Works good on most, but some needed it on to work.

but still... one outta 12 ain't bad at all!!!!:)

bato
09-11-2003, 10:49 PM
I think the problem with mpeg2vcr will be extra large GOPs, maybe if you cut one of this GOPs in the wrong place then the output will be bad.

I keep testing with one ty that always output bad sync no matter what, I just cut a little more where the problem start and now I have a perfect sync (all the way) file. So I have only 1 not so good transition but the rest are perfect in this mpg.

So my recomendation if you ever have one ty to behave like this, test it and if you have problem in one cut, cut a little more until the problem goes away.

Of course I'll have to test with the other 2 tys I tested before, but I bet this is the way to go for me.

Fugg
09-12-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by bato
...
I keep testing with one ty that always output bad sync no matter what, I just cut a little more where the problem start and now I have a perfect sync (all the way) file. ...
Yep, that still seems to be the case, even with the newest mpeg2vcr. As I said in my post above "this method will not work on that file without effectively cutting out the offending gop('s)", although now I don't have to "gop fix" the file anymore.

The first two ty's I tried this morning are in the same boat. It looks like mpeg2vcr is better than the last version, but not as good as I had hoped.

the search continues....

:)

edit:
Woah. Something's weird here....
Every file I touch this morning is hosed.
Even the ones that were fine when I did them last night at home.
(home machine-xp2500 w/1gig ram, work-xp1800 w/512meg)
I think I've got a machine specific problem.... at least at work!
:confused:

TRILIGHT
09-12-2003, 11:19 AM
That's pretty screwy when they go bad just sitting there, Fugg! ;) To post an update, I came across my first sync problem last night. Here's the info...

- Stargate SG-1 episode from 7/28
- Had to cut a segment at the beginning of the file and I don't normally have to do this with SG-1 (Contributing factor? Not sure yet)
- I checked and there were GOP timecode errors as well as length errors.

I told MPEG-VCR to fix the timecode errors only. I made the same edits I did before on the fixed file and all of my sync was fine. The thing that makes this interesting is that this is NOT always necessary on files with GOP timecode errors! I ran a scan on another file I extracted (Smallville episode from 2/25) and there were timecode errors on it also. However, I did not do any fixing before editing the file and all of my edits were fine with the result in perfect sync throughout. (Another note on this one is that I did not cut any segment from the beginning of the file. I have not had time to play with them yet so I do not know if this is a contributing factor or not)

I still think the method and versions are sound. It's probably just a few problem files to create anomalies. I've done around 15-20 so far and this has been the only issue and it was easily solved by running the timecode fixer. That's a 93-95% success rate which can't just be happenstance.

-----
EDIT:
Regarding testing of sync...

I've been working with a number of different methods just to test things out and I've come across some interesting observations. The first is an MPG created by TyStudio seems to have no GOP timecode errors when scanned. (As reported above, I got a lot of timecode errors when using the MPG TyTool created.) I edited this MPG in MPEG-VCR and then exported to a final edit MPG as usual.

Now the strange thing I noticed in the exported MPG is that it was not in sync. HOWEVER... It was only not in sync if I played the MPG in WinDVD or PowerDVD. If I played the file back in MPEG-VCR, it appeared to be in sync.

I found this odd so I went ahead and exported the elementals (mpv and mpa files) from this MPG. I imported the elementals into DVD Maestro in the usual manner. The times listed for each were practically the same (only 2 frames difference but this is typical). When they were played back together in Maestro, the sync was PERFECT throughout the entire clip!!

This leads me to believe that WinDVD and PowerDVD cannot always be trusted to be good indicators of whether the final elementals will be in sync or not. It also leads me to believe that if the final edit is in sync when played in MPEG-VCR, the elementals demuxed from it in MPEG-VCR will be in sync as well![/I]

blahman
09-22-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by jdiner
So who all really wants frame accurate editing?

What is it worth to you?

Are you really willing to put up with the speed impact of re-encoding certain frames including the audio sections.

--jdiner

Yes, I would really want frame accurate editing. I stated earlier how I got kind of frame accurate editing by directly notepad editing the .CUT files.

However, as I previously stated I doubt all DVD players would like the broken GOPs, and I'm sure there is plenty of software that would balk at them. Then again I did the whole authoring in TyTool for the DVD.

jdiner
09-22-2003, 02:49 PM
well. I have continued to work on it and I have a great deal more figured out about it. Should be doable. Gonna be a bit of work even with the lastest round of feasible short-cuts.

At the moment it is not at the top of the todo list. There are things that it seems many more people want that I am trying to do first. Many of these are things that I want for myself.

Watch for posts on when it is coming out.

--jdiner

TRILIGHT
09-22-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by blahman
...Then again I did the whole authoring in TyTool for the DVD.

Not badmouthing TyTool in any way but, there is already a frame accurate process for editing and creating a DVD (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27691) if you'd care to try regular authoring software instead.

jdiner
09-23-2003, 12:51 AM
Yes there have been many of them. They are just cumbersome to my way of thinking. I have tried them. Not saying they don't work. But they do not work everytime. The problems that cause these techniques to fail are sadly both common and well known.

However right now they are also the ONLY way to do frame accurate editing.

Anyway this is yet another place where I think that TyTool can continue to add value to the whole thing. It handles so many problems that other tools do not. So that sync stays perfect through out.

Anyway, right now TyTool does no frame accurate editing right now.

So either wait for something from TyTool for doing it or use an existing method. But be aware that problems can and will arise on certain streams.

--jdiner

jdiner
09-23-2003, 01:00 AM
Let me restate something that I have said quite a bit in the past but I think that is bears repeating right now...

Use whatever tool suits your purposes best.

I said it when TyStudio, and it's pieces, first came out. I have said it every time someone finds a new method to make things work like RC3105's MFS_FTP.

Use what works. I do. I wrote VSplit and TyTool in the first place to get something that worked.

I have been participating here in this thread because of the questions I have been asked by other participants here.

Don't take what I say about issues with other programs as a decree not to use them. That is not how they are intended. I am just trying to forstall another round of comments/questions that come flood style.

I have received 5 in the last week asking when I was going to make TyTool output be perfect in use with mpeg2vcr or {Insert favorite editor or DVD tool here}...

My personal take is that using a 3rd party tool with the streams that come from DTV is always going to be problematic. Hence why I keep working on things.

Now output from TyTool is not perfect either. It is darn close on the parts I care about. A/V sync through out a show. But the dvdauthor output is really lacking in some ways. No return to the main menu, no auto roll over on shows (from movie 1 to movie 2 etc...), no menu support for JVC players, etc... But to me and many others this is not crucial.

There is a long way to go in many many respects. So I say again, Use whatever tool suits your purposes best.

--jdiner

FredThompson
09-23-2003, 01:48 AM
yeah, what he said ;)

Also, when you feel the urge to bitch, don't. Go back to analog capture for a few days then you'll appreciate just how good we've got it already.