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View Full Version : NEW RULES: How to Treat a Developer



David Bought
09-11-2003, 09:06 PM
In recent months, many top (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=603) notch (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=377) developers (http://www.jaguartc.com/404notfound.html) have either left the scene or defected to private forums (http://alt.org) to work in peace. Why is it that so much talent is leaving Dealdatabase, and what can we do to stem the tide? Obviously Tivo hacking has lost its attraction for many of these bright individuals. They thrive in an environment where they are free to work on interesting projects of their choosing, are not pestered by people too lazy to troubleshoot their own problems, and are supported and appreciated by those who use their software. All too often, though, the environment at DDB does not meet these goals. What that happens, developers become unhappy and leave.

Today we will look at a few simple guidelines that everybody can follow to make our developers' lives as pleasant as possible.

1) DO NOT BEG. Developers work on the problems they are interested in. If you want to see a feature added to their software, submit a damn patch. Hint: they weren't afraid to learn something new - why are you?

2) DO NOT WHINE IF IT DOESN'T WORK. The software is free; the support is not. Use the search button and troubleshoot your own damn problems. If you don't know how and don't want to learn, confine your posts to the newbie forum and/or shut the hell up.

3) NEVER, EVER BEG FOR BINARIES. If a developer releases the source code for his program, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to bother him to ask for binaries that you could easily produce yourself. If you need a C compiler you can download it from here (http://gcc.gnu.org), and if you need instructions on setting it up you can find them here (http://google.com).

4) GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE. If you are using knowledge or code that comes from a developer for ANYTHING, you MUST properly attribute it. Reputation is paramount to many open source or freeware developers - respect their right to fame when they deserve it.

5) RESPECT THE AUTHOR'S WISHES. For instance, if you write a highly inaccurate HOWTO guide which causes a developer much grief from unnecessary support requests, pull the damn thing off the net if you're too busy (or lazy) to update it. DO NOT make your own incompetence into the developer's problem.

6) DON'T BE A PAIN IN THE ASS. If you don't know what a C compiler does, don't start harassing the developer about releasing his source code. If you're not willing to (learn how to?) post logs, strace or core dumps, or any meaningful debugging information, don't even bother reporting the problem because the author is not a damn psychic who can magically troubleshoot your problem blind.

7) SUPPORT THEIR EFFORTS. Dozens of major Tivo projects, such as MFStools and TivoWeb-NG, have died from user apathy. Contribute to the projects you use so that the authors don't feel like they are pissing their time away when they update the projects. For God's sake, a trained monkey could learn TCL - you are at least as smart as a monkey, right?

8) LOSE THE HERO WORSHIP. Developers are human beings, just like you and me. They deserve respect but many of them get annoyed when users start building shrines. Developers appreciate sincere and informed praise - not empty flattery that serves merely as a prelude to asking for something. YES - REALLY - they are smart guys and they KNOW when you're kissing their asses for selfish reasons.

Feel free to add anything I have missed, and thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

tytyty
09-11-2003, 09:43 PM
Once again the self described forum janitor (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115943#post115943) pipes up .

And again the question arises who elected you to decide how people should or should not act ?

There are Fourm rules and Topic rules and now the Janitors rules.

After your continual bashing (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=360967&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) do you really think anyone cares what you say Bought ?

Sometimes ignorance (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/member2.php?s=&action=viewlist&userlist=ignore) is bliss.

Will
09-11-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by David Bought
a few simple guidelines that everybody can follow to make our developers' lives as pleasant as possible.

This is the thing I hate most about you. Just when I make up my mind that you are a total *******, you come up with something first class. You've done it once again; you won't stay in the freakin' box!

Amyway, Re: "8) LOSE THE HERO WORSHIP. Developers are human beings, just like you and me. They deserve respect but many of them get annoyed when users start building shrines."

Maybe you know these particular guys better, but I've never met a programer or systems analyst who didn't love praise. Sincere and informed praise. Particularly when specific feaures are mentioned because it not only strokes the ego but provides feedback that something is both technically working and implementable/understandable by the user.

What is hated beyond belief is empty flattery as a prelude to asking for something, usually something stupid. "Hey guy, you are great, love your widget program, we are all just at your feet in awe. BTW could you explain to me why the sky is blue and how do I download your program from the internet and could you add a feature to make ice cream and what's the difference between a Tivo and a TV? And reply to me by email because I don't get to this forum much. Keep up the great work, guy!"

BubbleLamp
09-11-2003, 11:26 PM
Can't a REAL mod just plink this guy?!

David Bought
09-11-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by BubbleLamp
Can't a REAL mod just plink this guy?!

No. Plinking implies that the target is random.

But thanks anyway for contributing.

Tux Man
09-11-2003, 11:45 PM
Yes it does seem funny how the mods seem to ignore him..

hmm...

Tux Man

Will
09-11-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by BubbleLamp
Can't a REAL mod just plink this guy?!

I thought a lot of what he said made sense. The "Rules" thing and the pomposity and blather is just part of his schtik; comes with the territory. But the content has some merit, I believe.

BubbleLamp
09-12-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Will
I thought a lot of what he said made sense. The "Rules" thing and the pomposity and blather is just part of his schtik; comes with the territory. But the content has some merit, I believe.

Here's some for his list:

A) Have the developers get off their IP high horses and leave the sniping for private emails.

B) If a developer loses interest in his projects and doesn't want to bother supporting it, pull it so people don't keep killing themselves trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

As for the pomposity, who needs it. If he wants to make a point, he can make it. This isn't drama 101.


It's not random, you HAVE a target.

Handgun plinking is an informal recreational sport where a shooter can practice with various types of targets. It is noncompetitive and shooters of any skill level can practice plinking. Be sure to check local or city ordinances regarding shooting where you live. The shooting site needs to be in a safe, remote area, with a safe backstop where possible ricochets can be eliminated and where the noise will not disturb any neighbors.
Targets can be swung from strings or pinned to a cardboard backstop. Using glass objects can be dangerous and is not recommended. As in all shooting activities, shooters should wear eye and hearing protection and abide by all the standard safe gun handling rules.

David Bought
09-12-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by BubbleLamp
It's not random, you HAVE a target.



plink Audio pronunciation of plink ( P ) Pronunciation Key (plngk)

v. intr.

1. To make a soft, sharp, metallic sound.
2. To shoot casually at random targets.


Obviously if you were literally referring to "handgun plinking" in the first place, you would need to involve somebody who is in a very different line of work than moderating a Tivo board. And, in spite of the fact that you have had a hard-on for me from day one, I know you don't have the nerve to hire somebody to shoot me in real life. Therefore my definition holds and yours does not.

BubbleLamp
09-12-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by David Bought
Obviously if you were literally referring to "handgun plinking" in the first place, you would need to involve somebody who is in a very different line of work than moderating a Tivo board. And, in spite of the fact that you have had a hard-on for me from day one, I know you don't have the nerve to hire somebody to shoot me in real life. Therefore my definition holds and yours does not.

I hear a toilet overflowing, go grab your mop and get to it and stop polluting the rest of this board with your drivel.

David Bought
09-12-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by BubbleLamp
I hear a toilet overflowing, go grab your mop and get to it and stop polluting the rest of this board with your drivel.

The toilet scum is a metaphor for the n00b posts that you and I devote our lives to answering, day and night.

We should not be enemies, BubbleLamp - we are on the same team here.

mrblack51
09-12-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by BubbleLamp
Can't a REAL mod just plink this guy?!

while his comments may offend some, as far as I know he has not broken the board rules. Until that occurs, I am not going to ban him or anything.

just an FYI: the only people that have been banned (to my knowledge) are those who really broke the rules. I can recall a porn spammer, some guy who continually wanted to start polls for banning others, another who posted dss hacking links after causing major problems and being specifically warned.

mrblack51
09-12-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by BubbleLamp
Here's some for his list:

A) Have the developers get off their IP high horses and leave the sniping for private emails.

B) If a developer loses interest in his projects and doesn't want to bother supporting it, pull it so people don't keep killing themselves trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

As for the pomposity, who needs it. If he wants to make a point, he can make it. This isn't drama 101.


It's not random, you HAVE a target.

just curious, are you claiming that bought is a developer, or are you suggesting that 'A' applies to all developers?

According to 'B', many of the hacks on this board would disappear, including things like the prom hack for the series 1 (since bubbaj went MIA).

BubbleLamp
09-12-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by mrblack51
just curious, are you claiming that bought is a developer, or are you suggesting that 'A' applies to all developers?

According to 'B', many of the hacks on this board would disappear, including things like the prom hack for the series 1 (since bubbaj went MIA).


I have no indication he's a developer.

Hacks like the prom hack require no support, it works, period. There are plenty who know exactly how to use it, and explain it. Tools that were/are introduced half-baked, then abandoned for whatever reason (no other devs, too many other irons in the fire, etc. etc.) are what I was referring to.

It's painfully clear where the allegiances are on this board, so this is like pissing up a rope. I'm done.

emu
09-12-2003, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by mrblack51
while his comments may offend some, as far as I know he has not broken the board rules. Until that occurs, I am not going to ban him or anything.

just an FYI: the only people that have been banned (to my knowledge) are those who really broke the rules. I can recall a porn spammer, some guy who continually wanted to start polls for banning others, another who posted dss hacking links after causing major problems and being specifically warned.

I have never seen a forum that allowed bashing...
So are you saying that bashing is ok ?.

Not trying to start anything, just wondering where the mods stand here.

emu

mrblack51
09-12-2003, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by BubbleLamp
I have no indication he's a developer.

Hacks like the prom hack require no support, it works, period. There are plenty who know exactly how to use it, and explain it. Tools that were/are introduced half-baked, then abandoned for whatever reason (no other devs, too many other irons in the fire, etc. etc.) are what I was referring to.

It's painfully clear where the allegiances are on this board, so this is like pissing up a rope. I'm done.

if there are specific tools which have been abandoned and are problematic, I would like to know so i can remove them, or possibly post edits to the threads indicating that the tool's have been defacto deprecated in favor of other tools.

TiVOBell
09-12-2003, 06:36 AM
I am no fan of Bought's, and I don't understand how he thinks he can tell others how to behave. He is a nobody here, jut like me.

That said, the 'rules' presented above are actually pretty good. If he had presented them as guidelines in the heading rather than rules, I would have no problem with the whole thing. Only the mods can make rules.

His arrogance is the real problem. We all keep trying to make him see this but clearly he cares not.

DjPK
09-12-2003, 08:22 AM
The guy bugs the shit out me. But if dealdatabase where to start banning people for having oppionions that people should learn rather then bitch and moan then i would quit reading these boards. All though he can be mean and sarcastic 90% of what he is trying to convey is accurate. People are lazy and would rather complain about not having time to learn how to do this stuff. But at the same time they spend 20 hours begging for help.

FYI people are not running this board to teach "you" how to rip sienfeld to dvd. They are here because they like hacking. When they have to start spending 2/3 of there time doing tech support then its no longer fun.

No on a postive note.... Want to make the board better... and the ablitiy to search a with in a thread or fix the link that is supposed to dump the whole thread to one page.

DjPK

TiVOBell
09-12-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by DjPK
No on a postive note.... Want to make the board better... and the ablitiy to search a with in a thread or fix the link that is supposed to dump the whole thread to one page.
DjPK

Amen.

I expect the stupid questions would go down by half if this were fixed and the proper way to use it was publicized better. I was here 1 1/2 months before I happened across a post by Riley that told how to do it. What a time saver!

Zirak
09-12-2003, 11:27 PM
I think it would be far more useful if people were to take the "problem" that the thread originator outlined, and then provided their own suggestions for solutions, perhaps including a critique of individual items suggested.

It keeps coming around and smacking you in the face, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

gsocket
09-19-2003, 12:39 PM
David,

You definitely seemed to have added a lot of value to this board and are a true asset to the tivo community. After reading several of your posts itís quite apparent that you are on a completely different level of hacking than most people hear and it seems that you are often misunderstood. People just donít understand that your guidance and google can pretty much help them solve any problem they encounter.

Anyway, I was hoping that you could help me out with a problem Iíve been having with my HDVR2. I just got a new drive and formatted it with NTFS. Everything went pretty smoothly, but after I put the drive back in my tivo nothing worked.

Please let me know what I can do to fix this problem.

Thanks,
Steve

TiVOBell
09-19-2003, 12:45 PM
Oh boy. My fingers are in my ears for the rest of this.... :D

wahooka
10-10-2003, 02:06 PM
lol....is that post real?

if it's sarcastic....nice work

otherwise, you're a moron

AlphaWolf
10-11-2003, 12:01 AM
*shrug* I have no objections to anything he is saying here. (DO NOT interpret this as me endorsing this, I just simply have no objections)

captain_video
10-11-2003, 12:05 PM
*shrug* I have no objections to anything he is saying here. (DO NOT interpret this as me endorsing this, I just simply have no objections)

That's probably because you actually understand what he's talking about most of the time. His posts may be informative but apparently only to those that already know the answer. He just talks down to everyone else in a condescending manner. I have made it clear that I'm no Linux expert and there is a vast majority of members here that fit into that mold. DB's posts are stated such that the average person with little or no Linux expertise simply have no clue what he is talking about. He wears his Linux superiority like a Red Badge of Courage and looks down on the rest of us as peasants that don't follow in his footsteps.

I certainly can't argue with the notion that everyone here should read and learn about any hacks they attempt instead of jumping into the deep end and then crying for help. What I don't agree with is the philosophy that everyone should know Linux backwards and forwards in order to know how to hack a Tivo. I certainly don't and I seem to have managed quite well, thank you. If Bought turned his attitude down a couple of notches and humbled himself so the majority of us could understand his Geek-speak then he would be a valuable asset instead of a pompous ass.

I work with Engineers every day. I have no problem talking with the Electrical and Mechanical Engineers because that's where my background lies. When I talk with the software people I sometimes have to ask for simplified explanations because that's not my area of expertise. I'm not completely ignorant in this area and I've taken several courses on Unix, Fortran, and Software Engineering. Bought is simply talking another language when he posts. He just refuses to make any adjustment to accommodate anyone that is not at his level. He openly flames non-Linux literate members that they are either lazy, stupid, or both but on the other hand claims that he wants to do nothing but help. If that's being helpful then he can keep it.

David Bought
10-11-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by captain_video
That's probably because you actually understand what he's tlaking about most of the time. His posts may be informative but apparently only to those that already know the answer.

If my posts are so uninformative, how come I keep falling off your ignore list (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120991&highlight=ignore+list#post120991)?

I once worked as a crisis counselor so I know a thing or two about your personality type. You remind me of the battered women who follow the squad cars to the police station so that they can bail their abusive husbands out of jail after a domestic dispute. You just keep coming back for more - you cannot break the cycle.

Will
10-11-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by captain_video
That [you don't have any problems with what Bott is saying here is] probably because you actually understand what he's talking about most of the time.

I think Alpha meant he had no problem with Bott's specific proposal _here_. Not expressing any opinion one way or the other about his posts in general.

I find Bott's posts generally good on those very few occssions where he offers help. He does have a tendency to misunderstand the question, so that even when he's saying correct things it can be confusing because those things are not relevant.

AlphaWolf
10-15-2003, 01:00 AM
Well...in all honesty, I hardly knew anything about linux before hacking tivos. In fact, you could say that I learned linux from hacking tivos. Had it not been for tivo hacking, I probably wouldn't have been able to install gentoo linux on my lan server. (I never even heard of the TCL language either, I had to learn that from scratch)

IMO, once you learn bash, and you fully understand the "everything is a file" concept, linux is quite simplified compared to windows. Managing a windows server that doesn't have a monitor, keyboard, and mouse plugged into it is a real BITCH, not to mention VERY insecure since the only tty option available is a plaintext telnet session. With linux, the only things I need plugged into it are an ethernet cable and a power cord, and I can manage it just as easily, with added security.

I have only read a few of davids posts though...If they are mostly posted in howto threads, thats probably why, as I don't have any time to answer howto threads anymore.

tsugio
01-08-2004, 10:07 PM
Heh...I had every intention of donating to dealdatabase until Mr. Bought passed himself off as an admin and threatened to ban me on my first post.

Perhaps my post was off-topic but a board moderator could have just as easily moved it to an appropriate forum and informed me of the action. I moderate a few boards and the process of moving topics is simply considered necessary housekeeping.

I read the post by the true admin of the boards and while I empathize with his reluctance to ban people like Mr. Bought, the damage done by those who start and fan the flame wars is immeasurable.

The ban list for the three boards that I moderate is at 211 and counting. Of the thousands of programmers that visit my boards, do any of them really miss 211 people that couldn't act in a professional manner? Probably not. If they cannot post and reply with maturity, how reliable would you consider thier code, let alone thier advice?

In short, the small amount of information you lose by banning those who refuse to act professionally and maturely is compounded exponentially when those same people are allowed to post with impunity.

NutKase
01-08-2004, 10:15 PM
The ban list for the three boards that I moderate is at 211 and counting. Of the thousands of programmers that visit my boards, do any of them really miss 211 people that couldn't act in a professional manner? Probably not. If they cannot post and reply with maturity, how reliable would you consider thier code, let alone thier advice?

"...or their spelling."

NutKase :)

tsugio
01-08-2004, 10:35 PM
"...or their spelling."

NutKase :)

heh...fair enough.

Sleeper
01-08-2004, 11:40 PM
tsugio,

Don't take it personally, DB treats everyone the same.

Not that I condone his demeanor, but his points are well taken. Your post was in the wrong forum and linked to a theft of service site.

Also, It's pretty presumtious of you to think that I'm going to follow up with every Tom, Dick and Harry that doesn't take the time to read my thread - at least the first page. If you have a problem, there is a post that tells you how to report it and ask for help. To think that I'm gong to track down your posts on another site is insane.

I, and others will be happy to help you if you merely follow the guidelines - which requires just a little reading (It will also keep the janitor off your back)

S.