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View Full Version : tyStudio - now and the future



MrBassMan
05-10-2003, 08:42 AM
As some of you have noticed - tyStudio development has been very quiet over the last month or two. This has been due to the developers being 'burned out' with the massive development effort put in at the beginning of the year.

It is now time to do some more work. However, due to personal reasons, we are going to have to do this without Olaf. He is going to be unavailable for 6 months or so.

The first step is to re-organise the development team so who do we have available?

I don't need volunteers for testing, they are easy to find, what I do need is people to:

develop, maintain and build software on:
Windows (MSVC 6)
Linux
Mac
Tivo

I also need:
A documentation writer and webmaster for the tyStudio site.
Change controller (to manage, reproduce and prioritise reported bugs)

I also need somebody to do some research into DVD formats and come up with a design for the best way to implement direct DVD production into tystudio.

If you can help, please PM me ASAP. Please only do this if you can commit to some serious time on the project.

Everyone else can start discussion on this thread what you think the priorities for the development team should be.

TomW
05-10-2003, 11:33 AM
I think the FIRST priority should be to fix the audio sync problem when you cut the commercials out of a program!

MrBassMan
05-10-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by TomW
I think the FIRST priority should be to fix the audio sync problem when you cut the commercials out of a program!

I agree - the problem is going to be that this is in the area of code that Olaf looked after and this is a black box to me. I am going to have a very steep learning curve before I get to the bottom of it.

AlphaWolf
05-11-2003, 06:03 PM
MrBassMan: Did olaf say he was going to show up on TSS still?

MrBassMan
05-11-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by AlphaWolf
MrBassMan: Did olaf say he was going to show up on TSS still?

He did not say - My guess is that it could still be on.

newbie
05-11-2003, 11:22 PM
John--some suggestions:

1) Some people seem to be having a problem with tyindex and tyserver crashing their Tivo. Short term fix, allow tyserver to work without tyindex (copy to PC and index there) so these people can load tyserver only when extracting.

2) Either fix the sync issue or let's try to document another program (TMGENC DVD Author?) that allows for commercial cuts without sync problems. I'm going to experiment with DVD author in the next few days.

3) Try to work with Josh for a solution. Tytools seem to sync better but the output files seem have compatability problems. Is there an easy fix that combines features from both?

Although direct DVD support would be nice the fact that neither Olaf nor Josh have released anything yet would seem to indicate the solution isn't easy (or at least may be time consuming). I'd concentrate on the other issues first.

shuiqlazam
05-11-2003, 11:37 PM
First off.... great work by everyone involved. I know the rest of us don't say it enough.

Thank you to everyone who's provided any scripts, etc for Tivo.

My thoughts:

I would really like to see following projects combined into the tystudio.

1) Mplayer so it will use the tyserver to provide streaming shows, the set lists, etc.
2) mfs-ftp features to allow us to put shows back into the tivo, etc.
3) Drag and drops. etc/
4) Content Management to grab multiple shows at once, delete them, etc. I.e. some of the kewl features that tivoweb and tytool had.

While I don't know what has happened with Olaf, I hope he's only gone for a short period. My thoughts are, if olaf/jdinger, are awol, can we work on the areas that people have expertiece to make a good tool great?

I.e. The audio problem is a bummer. But, maybe it's not the time to tackle it....

I'm willing to volunteer some time with documentation, FAQs, etc. I just don't want to see this fall be the wayside.

Thanks again!
Shui

P.S. Could the audio synce problem be a codec issue?
P.P.S. Cwingert's mplayer shows audio syncs after a FF, but it always syncs back up... maybe the combining of Mplayer could help us to resolve the sync issue.
P.P.S.S. Just trying to start conversation - not trying to step on toes.

newbie
05-12-2003, 07:42 AM
I only have sync problems with shows with a lot of cuts, specifically some AMC movies. It seems the length of the show and number of cuts is the determining factor. I'll try burning one of the shows to DVD and see if it is a windows codec issue but I don't think so.



Originally posted by rc3105
the audio sync problems are usually windows codec issues with variable bitrate encoding.

the loss of sync on cuts in tystudio & compatability problems with tytool output are two sides of the same coin, just handled differently by different approaches.

if I lose sync on a tyedit cut (1 out of a hundred times maybe) I just generate an unedited mpeg then edit it with tmpgenc, I've never lost sync that way and the files import directly into a patched copy of spruce. pretty easy...

--
Riley

MrBassMan
05-12-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by newbie
I only have sync problems with shows with a lot of cuts, specifically some AMC movies. It seems the length of the show and number of cuts is the determining factor. I'll try burning one of the shows to DVD and see if it is a windows codec issue but I don't think so.

I can reproduce the sync problem when using cuts. I am pretty sure this is NOT a codec issue because the same file retains perfect sync when no cuts are added.

I have been looking at Olaf's code and mulling over what the problem and potential solutions are.

My tests show that video gets ahead of the audio - is that what others see too? - This would imply some audio is not being cut or too much video is being cut.

ronnythunder
05-12-2003, 12:25 PM
mrbassman, i've had it go both ways. one of the ones that's bitten me a few times is when tydemux thinks that some audio is "missing" and it compensates by "playing the audio segment twice". this has always messed things up for me. i changed the source for tydemux to not do this playing twice thing (and even changed the message to have a "...not!" on the end :) ), and i haven't had that problem again.

ronny

MrBassMan
05-12-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by ronnythunder
mrbassman, i've had it go both ways. one of the ones that's bitten me a few times is when tydemux thinks that some audio is "missing" and it compensates by "playing the audio segment twice". this has always messed things up for me. i changed the source for tydemux to not do this playing twice thing (and even changed the message to have a "...not!" on the end :) ), and i haven't had that problem again.

ronny

Can you PM me the changes, I will integrate them with the cvs source.

snoopy
05-12-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by rc3105
the audio sync problems are usually windows codec issues with variable bitrate encoding.

the loss of sync on cuts in tystudio & compatability problems with tytool output are two sides of the same coin, just handled differently by different approaches.

if I lose sync on a tyedit cut (1 out of a hundred times maybe) I just generate an unedited mpeg then edit it with tmpgenc, I've never lost sync that way and the files import directly into a patched copy of spruce. pretty easy...

--
Riley

This is very good information. Are you saying that a person with a Directivo currently has the ability to take an mpg directly from tytool and import it directly into a patched copy of spruceup?

Damfino
05-12-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by MrBassMan
My tests show that video gets ahead of the audio - is that what others see too? - This would imply some audio is not being cut or too much video is being cut.
When I was trying to get a method working with my DTivo files, I tried DVD Maestro, and noticed that when importing the .m2v and .mp2 files, that on most ones I tried, the audio was slightly different than the video. (These were originally made into generic mpg, no transcoding, then demuxed with TMPGEnc.) Maestro shows the time down to the hundredth of a second, so that gave a more "true" answer than just eyeballing it.

My hypothesis is that EVERY file that TyStudio outputs has the chance that the audio will be slightly different than the video, and each cut introduces another chance for them to be different length.

Uncut files, or files with only one cut at the beginning (like removing the station promos at the beginning on a full-length movie, like I've been doing for some TCM ones), play in sync because they all start off fine - but if you play them all the way to the end, the video seems to freeze while you hear audio for another instant or two.

I've never used TyTool (just got my DTivo a couple months ago) so I don't know how that compares... but generally, when chopping up a commercial show with mpeg2vcr, I'm able to get frame-perfect cuts with no loss of sync (or not enough to notice)... I'd love to be able to do all this inside TyStudio.

The DVD authoring doesn't concern me as I'd want to be able to make some sort of nice menu, anyways, and with the looming possibility of DVDLab working natively with 480x480 files, patching them from inside TyStudio should be, I think, pretty low priority. (Plus it's so darn easy even if you do need to do it.)

The true test will be importing the files into Maestro and seeing exactly the same length for the video as the audio, no matter the cut...

jcase
05-12-2003, 08:02 PM
I'm using tystudio and no matter what I do I'm having sync problems, can anybody let me know what to do?

rc3105
05-13-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
This is very good information. Are you saying that a person with a Directivo currently has the ability to take an mpg directly from tytool and import it directly into a patched copy of spruceup?

snoopy:

yep, works nicely here on dtivo files. I haven't started working with SA files yet. once I get the bugs out of the 2TB server I'll start transferring all my vhs/beta/8mm archives to the server (via a SA) then setup some scripts to convert a couple hundred hours of recordings & see how well it works. probably even better since the SA can encode directly to 720*480


MrBassMan:

Olaf & I went round & round tuning the audio repair routines against my collection of fried streams until even the worst examples repaired as well as could be hoped for. we both have DTivos though so I expect there are still SA issuess


ronnythunder:

what type of tivo do you have?


--
Riley

snoopy
05-13-2003, 12:49 AM
Excellent! Thank you for your response RC.

blax
05-23-2003, 01:44 AM
Any idea of what to do if tystudio dosen't show all the programs from the tivo?


TIA

rc3105
05-23-2003, 01:49 AM
check the thread

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23124

most problems have been covered in there, if you're sure it's a new one or you can't find your prob listed then that's the thread to work it out

--
Riley

ttabbal
05-23-2003, 01:57 AM
Sorry to hear Olaf won't be joining us. He's done some great work and will be missed while he's gone.

I'm new to extraction, just been testing the last few days. I have mfs_ftp working perfectly, but haven't pulled down a show from the TyStudio GUI yet, the button is disabled and I haven't looked into it closely. I can get a show list, it just doesn't want to let me download. I have used the tyget program to do the transfer and loaded into the editor with sucess though. I was able to cut the file with no sync problems on playback. It was 45 minutes of video, with 4 cuts. Sometimes, the cut locations would cause a failure and I would have to move the cut. The message log noted that it couldn't close the GOP. I really think that should be fixed. It should be able to process without having to restart the whole thing if there is an error. I used Xine for playback on my Linux machine. I suspect some of the sync issues are Windows codec issues.

My setup is Mandrake Linux 9.1 to a DTivo w/turbonet on a 100Mbps switched ethernet. I am willing to help test on Linux and work on code for TyEditor. I code all day, but would be willing to donate some time to keep a good Linux project for this stuff going. I don't want to have to reboot just to extract and edit.

One thing I noted with the Beta 2 binary package. On my machine, the tyeditor window did not draw properly. It was a dependancy issue of some kind, I had to compile it on my machine to get it to work. I only replaced the tyeditor binary after the build. The rest seems to work well.

Everyone has different priorities, that is to be expected. Personally, I would like to see Tystudio be capable of extracting, cutting, and processing to MPEG, DVD and SVCD ready files all in one package. It should be easy to work with, accurate, and fast. It's rather close for a Beta 2 release, IMO. I would call that a good featureset for 1.0 given the current featureset.

Extras that I think would be quick to add:

Batch processing. Set cuts and/or downloads for a few shows and have them all process at once.

Interface to burning programs. Eaiser in Linux as command line programs are all over the place for burning. IIRC there are some burning programs that work from command line in Windows and Mac as well.

DVD/SVCD menu creation, at least the basics.

Server unification. I don't see any need for multipule extraction servers on the Tivo side. It seems to me that we could use one and get all we need for a few projects. I'd like to see the server for Tystudio, mplayer, and mfs_ftp be one and the same. RAM on the Tivo is precious, as are CPU cycles. The less we have running there, the better.

I'm willing to download the specs and learn MPEG and Ty streams, but that will take a lot of time. I think that I might be more usefull on the GUI and simpler features to start with. The build process and documentation could use a little help as well. I ran into a few hangups before I got a clean build.

I'll be reading up on things as time permits, hope I can help out. At the very least, I know I'll have time to test on Linux.

AlphaWolf
05-23-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by ttabbal

I'm willing to download the specs and learn MPEG and Ty streams, but that will take a lot of time.


We actualy need this more than anything with olaf on the bench for the time being. Theres a whole bunch of information available on www.alt.org/forum regarding tystreams.

zobetron
05-23-2003, 11:31 AM
I've recorded a Macrovision protected vhs onto my SA1 tivo, I can use jdiner's program to split the file and it works ok. If I use tydemux (from the latest tystudio) it doesn't work, it just gives alot of error messages like so:

demux: Read Chunk: chunk 106 record: 0 - junk record type: f01 - skipping
demux: Read Chunk: chunk 106 record: 23 - junk record type: f01 - skipping
demux: Read Chunk: chunk 107 record: 0 - junk record type: f01 - skipping

and so on... all junk records are of type:f01...

Anybody seen this before. Can tydemux be modified to compensate? I would try to do it myself but I can't seem to compile the source (instructions/requirements?)

rung
05-27-2003, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by MrBassMan
I can reproduce the sync problem when using cuts. I am pretty sure this is NOT a codec issue because the same file retains perfect sync when no cuts are added.

I have been looking at Olaf's code and mulling over what the problem and potential solutions are.

My tests show that video gets ahead of the audio - is that what others see too? - This would imply some audio is not being cut or too much video is being cut.

MrBassMan,

Not sure if you saw my post here (http://dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=100694#post100694) . Maybe it will help.

Regards,
Greg

knottydrd
05-27-2003, 09:26 PM
Hello,

I am a web/database developer. I also develop in Visual Basic for Windows. I am willing to contribute anywhere I could be of use. My primary interest would be to learn more about linux/tivo devleopment.

My primary contribution would be to maintain a website.

chris_tivo
08-08-2003, 05:43 PM
I think with all this stuff its a case of what works for you at the time.

I'm using tystudio, it was the opposite situation a few months back. Jdiner had put tytools on the back burner and I was getting sync problems. Luckily Olaf sorted a lot of the problems out and even after Jdiner came back on the seen I've stuck with Tystudio.

I've got a UK series 1 and both apps work well now, but I have never had any compatabilty issues with my players. Tystudio has the edge because I've had the odd problem with Tytools, especially with pixel breakup which can really be annoying.

I would say to everyone try both, I wish Olaf was still working on tystudio, but its good enough for what I need. Tytools has really come on leaps and bounds and I think Jdiner is a hero for all the work he has and is putting in.

If you want to burn straight to DVD then tytools is the easiest. For me tystudio is easiest because I don't want menus and when I do I use DVD Author (but don't use it to cut unless you want to risk sync problems).

My route is

1. TyStudio as Elemental Stream to m2a/m2v files (cut out adverts)
2. IfoEdit beta calling author new dvd to compile the DVD directory (get the beta version to add multiple m2a/2v files)
3. Nero to burn to DVD Video

I can help if anyone is having problems following the above 3 steps or feels like they are doing something obviously wrong.

aersloat
08-09-2003, 01:58 AM
but TyTool is windoze only. For those of us on OSX or Unix/Linux machines TyTool is not really an option if your goal is to cut commercials. That is why TyStudio is so important.

rc3105
08-11-2003, 07:41 PM
a few points to clarify - make sure everybody's on the same page


tytool is a closed source utility done by jdiner

tystudio is an open source suite of utilities done by olaf & friends

tydemux was the precursor to tystudio


tydemux handles sa v1.3 streams

tystudio handles current S1 SA & dtivo streams

tytool supposedly handles s1/s2 sa/dtivo streams from ty->dvd


from what folks who actually know how to use the tools are saying, the latest versions of tytool & tystudio both have nearly all the sync-on-cut issues resolved. I can vouch for tystudio (dtivo/sa 2.x/3.x) but I've never had any luck with tytool


--
Riley

fletch
08-11-2003, 07:42 PM
Snoopy,

Here it is...apparently tytools /studio can't handle the older units data format of the stream. Take a look. So far this is the only software that works for me.

regards,
Fletch
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24305&perpage=15&highlight=chunks&pagenumber=1