TyTool Alpha #8r3, VSplit beta #3.41, DVD output...

[jdiner]

Alright.

The TyTool website is up. It was written and is being hosted by a fellow forum member.

I bought the .com version of the name because most people seem to start there these days when looking at/searching for web sites.

Right now the site is almost entirely empty. But the mechanism for the uploading and download of templates including a nice BMP thumbnail process is all in place.

I would like put a real serious FAQ there. I would also like to gather howto's and other things for deal with TyTool and VSplit.

If you are the author of such a work and would like your work added to what should be come the central point for such things then please contact me a can take copies of things. Full credit will be given etc... I would just like to be able to point people to 1 single place.

EDIT: Oh and one more note. If anyone wants to kick in a few bucks for getting other domain names I would be happy to get tytool.net and tytool.org etc... all pointed to the same place. I just couldn't really pay 3 to 4 times as much as I did at this point.

--jdiner

[FredThompson]

homepage: http://themurrays.homeip.net/

Site maintained by Lloyd and Cheryl Murray. Email Us!

mailto:lmurray@rochester.rrDOTcom

mailto:cmurray2@rochester.rr.com

--

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about your new domain. Woohoo!!

[jdiner]

Oh. Well it only took me eating dinner to calm down a bit and realize I had gone way to far.

I meant what I said when I said I was sick of fielding comments that are just negative slams. A great many good ideas have come from here. A great many bad ideas have to. Everyone has a pet feature. Only a minimal number will ever make it into the toolset.

I was slapping my aingst filled paintbrush around pretty wide earlier. My apologies to Snoopy and others. I never meant everything said here on the forum or even this particular thread was bad.

I have been fielding a great deal of disappointment from the unix users recently. I was asked for a "nice shell yet graphical" version of TyTool for unix. So I built it using curses so it could be run from almost anywhere. Not a person there liked what I did. Spent a serious amount of time on it for what appears to be nothing. Some of that carried over to here and my earlier comments.

What I refered to Snoopy's click-to-burn idea, all I meant was I have no desire to work on a feature that a serious minority are going to want. (Burning without commercials being cut... check the forum for the massive numbers of previous posts requesting it. I built GopEditor when the PMs to me topped 200 for those that wanted something like it.) 54 total downloads of the unix version. 786 downloads of the latest version of TyTool8r3. Previous versions of tytool were in the thousands of downloads.

To add burning software would mean more tieing into an existing system. I have no knowledge of the mechanics of the burn process itself. This would be nice as less issues with a hundred different version of Nero all broken in their own unique way. But a massive learning curve in terms of how to build and what to do to tie it all together.

Trilight: Your last few messages directed to me have all sent the same message: "Don't like it as is". But I have yet to see anything directed towards making it better. It is obvious I have reached my limit on such posts. But I meant what I had said. If you have a suggestion make it. If it has merit to me personally or to an over all majority then it will get used in some fashion at some point during this whole process.

--jdiner

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by jdiner
You don't like TyTool fine. Use something else. I get sick of hearing that TyTool has a lousy interface. Does it work or doesn't it?

I never said I did not like it. Quite the contrary. I've said more than once that when it comes to extraction, it's the best! My comments were in regard to Bubble's "batch file" comment and had nothing to do at all with your GUI. That's a whole different matter and you've explained it before. No problem. However, once again, a completely benign comment from me is taken as a personal jab at the software. This has never been the case when I've voiced my opinions.

I know you are one that likes to use other tools for menus. Fine you just added an obtuse and longer work flow all your own. Why? TyTool does it all, the rest is unneeded!

The fact is, there are simply no advanced options that are available in real DVD authoring packages. To say actual DVD authoring software is unneeded because TyTool "does it all" is just vanity. It doesn't... yet. When it does, I'm sure I'll sing it's praises.

Changing the GUI to make using external tools easier is not on my agenda as I will plan to never do so.

This is the reason I still need to use TyProcess to make a more reliable mux to MPG. At least you've admitted to everyone that if they don't use TyTool to make a DVD, they can kiss off. I think you're alienating a lot of people who utilize actual DVD authoring software but that's cool. It's your perrogative.

People get flamed, if you want to call it that, for posting things that are rediculous.

Bubble mocked that guy for making the simple suggestion that making the KEY files during the extraction would save a step. It's a totally legitimate suggestion but the guy is made to feel like an ***** because he didn't consider writing batch files. No one wants to have to write batch files to make a DVD; even those that know how.

I disagree that the work flow it bad. Seperate that from GUI whining for a moment.

Again, I've not said a thing about the GUI. Though it could use improvement, I am aware of why it is the way it is. The workflow for what I use it for is very simple. The workflow for editing and creating a DVD in TyTool is not compared to other software.

Now you want to stop early and use something else fine. I don't. I have no desire whatsoever to use other tools to finish the DVD Menu. I have tried them all. For me they are slow, painfully so.

As I said before, I guess those that use regular DVD authoring software know where they stand. I suppose the real crux of the issue is that you are not familiar with DVD authoring workflow as it is presented in nearly all commercial DVD authoring apps. They are quite similar from one to another and rather easy to pick one up if you've already worked on another. TyTool is the only thing I've ever seen deviate from this type of DVD creation. Anyone who has created a DVD before trying TyTool to do it will feel the same way.

This is probably why you see people asking for a simple "click to make a DVD" type thing. For many, it would be easier to have an option to pick some files, do some quick cuts (if you choose), and then have it spit out a quick DVD with the shows on it. This would be useful when archiving something you don't really care about making a nice layout for or if you just wanted to throw something on disc real quick to bring to a friend's house, etc. It's functionality people don't see elsewhere and this is probably why they ask for it. Not that it's a demand but it's something that TyTool could offer that regular authoring apps do not.

So which would rather have. An interface with dancing clowns and help for newbies that won't read anyting? Or seemless support for Dolby audio clips? An interface with no menus meaning no keyboard support or the next round of menu enhancements?

Since you're asking... continued support of strange DirecTV streams, dolby audio, and more standard MPG creation like that which TyProcess creates. Until there's a "quick DVD" option for picking some clips and burning to disc for those "on the go", I just don't see the advantage of not using regular DVD authoring apps for making a disc.

Let me just reiterate, I think TyTool is awesome for those special things it does so well to make extraction reliable and easy. For what I use it for, I LOVE it! :) Let me apologize now however to all the "TyTool Zealots" out there if I don't get in line and pucker up in every other post the way they do. Whether it's free or I paid $100 for it, I'm still going to share my unbiased opinions and not feel the need to "kiss ass" in the process. I'm just speaking my mind. If people want to take it personally, that's their problem and not mine.

[jdiner]

FredThompson:

The process inside of TyTool is quite a bit more involved than just a wrapper for vsplit. If it was it would just use vsplit.

The fundamental working code for dealing with a TyStream is the same general thing but a ton more access and management is both possible and in use.

Taking it one step further the system is a Win32 GUI. Given the way the interface was build and used not much more than mouse clicks are usable at this point. Various things could be added but it would mean a pretty serious reworking of the interface. There are better ways to do it.

--jdiner

[TRILIGHT]

@jdiner: I was typing and did not see your new post. Thanks for explaining your frustration with the Unix users. Totally understandable. As I said in my previous post, anything I say is never a personal jab. (Though I admit openly to have taken a few at David Bought. hehe ;) ) I like you. Always have. When it comes to TyTool, I've always tried to be as unbiased as possible in my observations.

On a note about burning, I could put you in touch with some people on that if you really want. Nero is not the best thing to use for ultimate compatibility. Making an image with Imgtool and then burning with DVD Decrypter results in the greatest compatibility. I can put in a word for you with the authors if you decide to go down that road later. I'm sure they can assist with getting DVD burning functionality up and running in TyTool. Let me know.

[andy_ho]

Originally posted by bato
Did you know that you can use TyTool with mpg from a dishplayer?

Yes, a few pages ago, someone mention having problem with the stream. Never tried it myself. I used mpeg2vcr back then, but it was quite troublesome cuz it's not in sync(had to do around 200 ms offset...forgot whether if it's + or -).

[snoopy]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
This is probably why you see people asking for a simple "click to make a DVD" type thing. For many, it would be easier to have an option to pick some files, do some quick cuts (if you choose), and then have it spit out a quick DVD with the shows on it. This would be useful when archiving something you don't really care about making a nice layout for or if you just wanted to throw something on disc real quick to bring to a friend's house, etc. It's functionality people don't see elsewhere and this is probably why they ask for it. Not that it's a demand but it's something that TyTool could offer that regular authoring apps do not.

[B]

Since you're asking... continued support of strange DirecTV streams, dolby audio, and more standard MPG creation like that which TyProcess creates. Until there's a "quick DVD" option for picking some clips and burning to disc for those "on the go", I just don't see the advantage of not using regular DVD authoring apps for making a disc.

Let me just reiterate, I think TyTool is awesome for those special things it does so well to make extraction reliable and easy. For what I use it for, I LOVE it! :) Let me apologize now however to all the "TyTool Zealots" out there if I don't get in line and pucker up in every other post the way they do. Whether it's free or I paid $100 for it, I'm still going to share my unbiased opinions and not feel the need to "kiss ass" in the process. I'm just speaking my mind. If people want to take it personally, that's their problem and not mine. Thank you for re-stating that in that post. That was a very well put together post and I think made some voices heard. I have have consistantly said that I think TyTool is fantastic as is and I mean that! Just because one person thinks a feature is usefull or GOD FORBID suggests it. It is ONLY a suggestion. NOBODY's suggestion good or bad deserves to be badmouthed in any way. It's not the personal. It's just a suggestion. Thank you for your words of wisdom on this matter.

[FredThompson]

oh, yeah, sorry, I over-simplified. I didn't mean tytool is ONLY a shell. I assumed (incorrectly, it appears) that for those functions which vsplit does, tytool shells to it.

[andy_ho]

Originally posted by Toddler
Andy, since you're using Mpeg2VCR, read this thread:

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25896&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

It covers the process in detail. I use Mpeg2VCR for frame-accurate cuts as well and then Ulead DVD MovieFactory 2 to do menus and author the DVD. It's super-simple and the quality is perfect.

To answer your question about the GOP tools...
Welcome aboard!

Toddler,

Thank you for providing such a vast amount of info. Really appreciate it. I will be using mpeg2vcr for the mpeg that I screwed up on. mpeg2vcr is very painful to use(for me anyway) when comparing with gop editor from tytool. (so I don't like to use mouse that much, sue me! =P)

[BubbleLamp]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Bubble mocked that guy for making the simple suggestion that making the KEY files during the extraction would save a step. It's a totally legitimate suggestion but the guy is made to feel like an ***** because he didn't consider writing batch files. No one wants to have to write batch files to make a DVD; even those that know how.


Actually that's wrong, I was mocking the guy wanting end to end automation, who has admitted to being lazy. Even Homer gets off the couch once in a while.

I suggested batch files for the guy who wants automated key file generation, as it's simple to do, and can be done now, no waiting for Josh to add a feature.

There is an entire spectrum, from the one-button guy at one end, to folks who will settle for nothing less than frame-accurate cuts derived only from elemental streams. Neither end of the spectrum will get all that they want. So do the best you can with what you are given, and get creative in how you adapt to the tools at hand.

[koreth]

I suggested batch files for the guy who wants automated key file generation, as it's simple to do, and can be done now, no waiting for Josh to add a feature.
Speaking as that guy, I have to say that I'm not sure I see how batch files help. (And yes, I've written more batch files than I can count.)

Today:

1. Use tytool to select shows to extract; extract them.
2. Use tytool to generate keyfiles for all the shows.
3. Use tytool to edit out ads.
4. Use tytool to create DVD image.

With a batch file:

1. Use tytool to select shows to extract; extract them.
2. Run a batch file to generate keyfiles for all the shows.
3. Use tytool to edit out ads.
4. Use tytool to create DVD image.

I may be dense, but I don't see how this will have saved me a step. If anything it's more work.

If jdiner doesn't see automatic keyfile generation as a worthwhile change to make, fine -- it's not as if it's torture to do it as things stand now. I suggested it merely because I've very rarely not wanted to generate a keyfile after extracting video, and I imagine most people who edit out ads with the GOP editor would say the same. Adding an autogenerate toggle switch would make the tytool experience that much more smooth and effortless for what I think is a fairly common usage pattern.

[FredThompson]

If you look a few posts before this one you'll see jdiner talking about automatic keyfile/corruption detection. He's interested in it, ok. At one time I asked him if he'd like a site to track bugs/request/show progress/etc. The problem is administering such a site is a bear. Maybe he'll put an informal todo list at the new domain.

(Not that I've got an inside scoop, just relaying what little news has come my way.)

Oh, and I remembered why I was thinking about an external database-driven dupe/todo list ap. AFAIK, there's no way to tie multiple TiVos together. Suppose you've got one that got a DTiVo and the schedule just happens to work out that there are 3 things in your season passes for the same time period. Would ne nice if that unit could "farm out" a todo request to another unit.

I only mention that as I'm the proud owner of 2 more thanks to the friends & family offer at DirecTV and Circuit City's phaseout of the HDVR2. It's incredible how quickly a luxury turns mundane and ideas to improve on it pop up...

Another idea was to farm the request out to a unit in another geographic area. Suppose you and a buddy "share" scheduling. Bad westher knocks out your recording but you're able to determine he's got a good copy. If you're on one coast and he's on the other, you could almost offer "rain protection" to each other. I know, this doesn't really fit in the tytools thread...

Given all the talk about HMO-type operations and moving streams between TiVos and remotely viewing via stream feeds, maybe this isn't so odd an idea.

[bato]

jdiner, I saw your background/templates for Stargate, tell me if the Stargate letters and the SciFi logo show in your TV, I think they are too close to edge and will not show correctly on a TV.

[DeathLemur]

Forget about a place for a couple of months and everything changes... :) Can't wait to try #8 when I get home.

One thing I didn't see mentioned in the release notes... in #7 I was having problems deleting streams on my TiVo. I would select the stream, hit the delete button, and the program would unceremoniously die. Has anyone else seen this behaviour? If so, does it happen in #8? (I use an XP Pro system, if that matters any...)

[BubbleLamp]

Originally posted by DeathLemur
Forget about a place for a couple of months and everything changes... :) Can't wait to try #8 when I get home.

One thing I didn't see mentioned in the release notes... in #7 I was having problems deleting streams on my TiVo. I would select the stream, hit the delete button, and the program would unceremoniously die. Has anyone else seen this behaviour? If so, does it happen in #8? (I use an XP Pro system, if that matters any...)

That has been fixed, along with MANY other things. Check it out.

[jdiner]

Originally posted by FredThompson
oh, yeah, sorry, I over-simplified. I didn't mean tytool is ONLY a shell. I assumed (incorrectly, it appears) that for those functions which vsplit does, tytool shells to it.
That would have been nice. The problem is that under Win2k/XP/ME et al... the shell pipe feature is completely broken.

You simply can't pass binary data through it. The ASCII translation takes place and that destroys binary data. So it has been all buried together almost from the start.

I found a working pipe elsewhere but very few people have replacement shells installed on the PC.

I thought about writing my own just for kicks to ship with TyTool/VSplit but I would hate to have to try and support something like that. So after a few quick looks at things I just abandoned the idea.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by koreth

If jdiner doesn't see automatic keyfile generation as a worthwhile change to make, fine -- it's not as if it's torture to do it as things stand now. I suggested it merely because I've very rarely not wanted to generate a keyfile after extracting video, and I imagine most people who edit out ads with the GOP editor would say the same. Adding an autogenerate toggle switch would make the tytool experience that much more smooth and effortless for what I think is a fairly common usage pattern.
It is on the todo list. Has been for some time. But I continue to try and get the core/underlying pieces done first.

The last time I asked about Dolby audio only 2 people responded. Does that mean that nobody bothers anymore? Or they just don't read in here...

It is a nice feature to have in place anyway, just interesting that for a long time people were hounding me for it and now it seems like something not many want anymore.

Not having a dolby receiver has made dolby audio of little interest to me personally.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by bato
jdiner, I saw your background/templates for Stargate, tell me if the Stargate letters and the SciFi logo show in your TV, I think they are too close to edge and will not show correctly on a TV.
They show right to the edge on my JVC tv. And on my old Amiga 1080 monitor that I use with the DVD players here in my office.

However the SCI-FI at the bottom right is cut off at about half.

I know that some here indent things more than others. I just put it where I liked the looks and left it at that.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT

Until there's a "quick DVD" option for picking some clips and burning to disc for those "on the go", I just don't see the advantage of not using regular DVD authoring apps for making a disc.

NOw here is where I disagree. Speed of completing the process and the ease of doing so. I will be the first to admit this is seriously a matter of personal preference.

I built templates for each of the types of shows I watch. I made some nice looking, to me, BMP backgrounds.

Using the TyTool GUI I can populate the whole things in a matter of seconds. No placing of boxes each time. Not monkeying around with fonts or size one at a time.

I am really liking the new BMP features in things. Wish I had added it a long time ago. I had to go back and look at a few old disks to make sure they had burned right and I was shocked at my reaction to the old menus. They were ugly. :(

But there are no motion menu's etc... But that doesn't bother me. For those that it does something else must be used.

But the #1 reason I stay with TyTool to build the DVD fileset is that it always works. No matter how badly damaged the stream is it always maintains sync. That is the #1 criteria for me.

--jdiner

[koreth]

Originally posted by jdiner
The last time I asked about Dolby audio only 2 people responded. Does that mean that nobody bothers anymore? Or they just don't read in here...
Well, when I was clamoring for Dolby audio support way back when, it didn't work at all. Horribly out of sync, etc. But lately it's been working for me -- I haven't been collecting anything that switches from non-Dolby to Dolby (most HBO shows switch during the HBO logo, which I always cut out anyway) and all-DD shows work flawlessly. So I haven't had any reason to ask for more effort in that area.

However, I completely agree that getting the underlying stuff working is way more important than minor tweaks to the UI. One day I'm sure I will want to archive something that switches audio modes, and I'll be glad to have it just work.

[BubbleLamp]

Originally posted by jdiner
It is on the todo list. Has been for some time. But I continue to try and get the core/underlying pieces done first.

The last time I asked about Dolby audio only 2 people responded. Does that mean that nobody bothers anymore? Or they just don't read in here...

It is a nice feature to have in place anyway, just interesting that for a long time people were hounding me for it and now it seems like something not many want anymore.

Not having a dolby receiver has made dolby audio of little interest to me personally.

--jdiner

I look at DD support as just extending the stream handling abilities to make them as best as possible.

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by jdiner
That would have been nice. The problem is that under Win2k/XP/ME et al... the shell pipe feature is completely broken.

You simply can't pass binary data through it. The ASCII translation takes place and that destroys binary data. So it has been all buried together almost from the start.

I found a working pipe elsewhere but very few people have replacement shells installed on the PC.Well, that flippin' blows! I guess it means the only way to do things is via cygwin or similar, huh? Glad I found out now. That could be a real headbuster of a problem.

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by jdiner
NOw here is where I disagree. Speed of completing the process and the ease of doing so. I will be the first to admit this is seriously a matter of personal preference.

I built templates for each of the types of shows I watch. I made some nice looking, to me, BMP backgrounds.

Using the TyTool GUI I can populate the whole things in a matter of seconds. No placing of boxes each time. Not monkeying around with fonts or size one at a time....and the look is consistent between discs in a series.

Thing is, Trilight's more into cool design. If you trace where he hangs out, you'll understand.But there are no motion menu's etc... But that doesn't bother me. For those that it does something else must be used.You know, maybe the option to include an opening video sequence before the menu pops up would be cool. It easy enough to take a short opening sequence, like the one from Alias, and pull it out for this kind of thing.

Speaking of Alias, the official fan site used to have the opening audio sequence as a download. Would be cool to play during the menu...unless the menu sits there to long, then it would just be annoying. OK, maybe forget that idea.

Similarly, it's fairly easy (for me or Trilight) to use AviSynth to create a short video with your menu text and an animated background. Making one which loops is another matter because it requires a lot more design unless you use a generic looping background designed for this type of thing (MainConcept free downloads, for example.)

Mind you, I'm NOT talking about animated buttons or transitions betwen screens, I'm only talking about an opening animation played on insertion leading to a static menu or as a background. I also readily admit I don't have the DVD specs and don't know what type of script support is needed for this. Trilight might have that kind of info, dunno.

Basically, play segment X then show the static menu or, if it's possible, play video segment X as an endless loop while monitoring for selections. That's the theory, at least.

Bitmapped background are an incredible improvement, though, that's for sure.

[DeathLemur]

Originally posted by BubbleLamp
That has been fixed, along with MANY other things. Check it out.

Sadly, it still bombs for me... Click delete, get the deleting message, get a crash window.

AppName: tytool8r3.exe
ModName: tytool8r3.exe
Offset: 0000e692

Exception Information:
Code: 0xc0000005
Flags: 0x00000000
Record: 0x0000000000000000
Address: 0x000000000040e692

[FredThompson]

The problem's on your end, not tytool. Rock solid for me and I had the same problem with the client going dead on the beta 7 release. I also rebuilt my TiVo.

[eastwind]

Josh,
I noticed in the command line help for Vsplit an option for Audio Transcoding that is not availible from the TYTool GUI. It's number 8 - Dolby 48x192. Would it be possible to put that in the GUI? I know I don't like to upsample from the 192 that my SA records (just uses more bits without adding any information) and maybe there are others out there that see it that way as well?

ew

[andy_ho]

Josh,

I have a suggestion about a new feature. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't sound useful.

GOP is not frame accurate, which could be a problem when cutting commercial.
After cutting the commerical, some people might try to check each cut point to make sure that no important word get cut off or something. How about have a player function in GOP so that it can play every frame with audio at the cut point(maybe 5 or 10 second before the cut point). It will play 5-10 seconds after the cut point, and go on to the next cut point. Or maybe it's easier to implement it as a separate media player.
The problem with checking the cut point with other programs such as mpeg2vcr or a media player is that the timecode(minutes, second) is not the same as the .cut file.
If such thing can be done already, please explain what the best way to do it is. Thanks.

[tivomaster]

Originally posted by jdiner
Alright.

The TyTool website is up. It was written and is being hosted by a fellow forum member.

--jdiner

I tried http://www.tytool.com and http://tytool.com to no avail. Is it just that my ISP's dns is slow to update?

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by koreth
However, I completely agree that getting the underlying stuff working is way more important than minor tweaks to the UI. One day I'm sure I will want to archive something that switches audio modes, and I'll be glad to have it just work.

I have not really said how much I appreciate the Dolby Digital support, jdiner. That is a pretty big leap as far as I'm concerned. Thanks!!

In regards to the above quote though, let me deflect this before everyone starts jumping your ass for it. ;) According to the DVD spec, you cannot have audio that differs on the same track. In fact, you cannot even have audio on a different "movie" or "clip" in the same VTS be different either! As you can imagine, this presents a big problem when it comes to what we do. Broadcast digital is WAY different than what is acceptable for DVD authoring. I sometimes forget how thankful I really am that it works at all!

So... what can be done about these clips that switch from MPEG audio to Dolby Digital? Not a whole lot without screwing it all up from where I stand. You would have to do one of two things:

1) You'd have to find where it changes. Take the first and last parts of the audio (usually MPEG audio before the main "show") and insert nothing but silence in the middle of them. Likewise, add frames to the beginning and end of the Dolby Digital part to keep it's length as well. Put the MPEG audio on track 0x80 and the Dolby Digital on 0x81 (or vice versa) and then insert commands to change the audio track when it reaches those points. Needless to say this would be a huge problem with trying to keep sync.

2) The only other way would be to cut the video at these change points and make the beginning and end completely seperate "clips". Since you cannot have differing audio on the same track in the same VTS, you'd have to stick them in another VTS or insert "filler" tracks in order to place the audio where you want it. One clip would play, followed by the main part, then the last clip would play.

As you can well imagine, both of these scenarios would be a HUGE pain in the ass!! Actually, upon typing this, I realized a third option. You could transcode the first and last parts to the same Dolby Digital spec as the middle and then try to put them together. I personally think you'd still have some major issues though. Dolby Digital audio was not meant to be done this way on DVD. They can flip switches in broadcast all day long but the DVD spec is just not designed this way. Perhaps this third option is something to think about though.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I wouldn't expect this sort of functionality any time soon (if at all)! Some major workarounds would have to be employed and that's probably not something that will happen quickly. Just thought I'd share my 2 cents on the subject.

[bato]

They are releasing many fixes at a fast rate, that will make it hard to do a release with a version than a few days latter will fix more things.

jdiner, are you planning to make available only the dvdauthor update to the base release?

dvdauthor 0.6.0 released 2003-10-21
dvdauthor 0.6.1 released 2003-10-25
dvdauthor 0.6.2 released 2003-10-27
dvdauthor 0.6.3 released 2003-10-30
dvdauthor 0.6.4 released 2003-10-31

if it's just a standard exe then maybe we can compile it in on our own?

[tictoc2]

Originally posted by jdiner
The last time I asked about Dolby audio only 2 people responded. Does that mean that nobody bothers anymore? Or they just don't read in here...

It is a nice feature to have in place anyway, just interesting that for a long time people were hounding me for it and now it seems like something not many want anymore.

Not having a dolby receiver has made dolby audio of little interest to me personally.

--jdiner

I would love to have Dolby Digital Support. I would be glad to test any version that you need to be tested.

tictoc2

[kyle]

The volume on the mpg/vob files i generate is really low--any suggestion on how to boost the volume on these (they are muxed to vob with Dolby Digital)? It would be great if there was an option to do this in TyTool (in case we have really soft input sources.

Thanks,
-Kyle

[BubbleLamp]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
I have not really said how much I appreciate the Dolby Digital support, jdiner. That is a pretty big leap as far as I'm concerned. Thanks!!

In regards to the above quote though, let me deflect this before everyone starts jumping your ass for it. ;) According to the DVD spec, you cannot have audio that differs on the same track. In fact, you cannot even have audio on a different "movie" or "clip" in the same VTS be different either! As you can imagine, this presents a big problem when it comes to what we do. Broadcast digital is WAY different than what is acceptable for DVD authoring. I sometimes forget how thankful I really am that it works at all!


I don't see how you can worry about the DVD spec regarding DD, when we're recording (from a DTivo anyway) at a non-DVD spec resolution. Tons of what is going on seems to be non-spec, yet it's being used. If a stream can be created that lets a player handle the switches to/from DD correctly, what's the problem?

[jdiner]

Originally posted by FredThompson

Mind you, I'm NOT talking about animated buttons or transitions betwen screens, I'm only talking about an opening animation played on insertion leading to a static menu or as a background. I also readily admit I don't have the DVD specs and don't know what type of script support is needed for this. Trilight might have that kind of info, dunno.

Looks like Scott figured out a great many things about menus recently. It now has full motion/sound into into a menu. Pretty slick.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by DeathLemur
Sadly, it still bombs for me... Click delete, get the deleting message, get a crash window.

It is something on your end. The crashing delete caused was on the TIVO side of things not the client side. It could take down the seriously intricate mode switching going on inside of the tivo.

I use the delete feature of TyTool almost everyday...

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by eastwind
Josh,
I noticed in the command line help for Vsplit an option for Audio Transcoding that is not availible from the TYTool GUI. It's number 8 - Dolby 48x192. Would it be possible to put that in the GUI? I know I don't like to upsample from the 192 that my SA records (just uses more bits without adding any information) and maybe there are others out there that see it that way as well?
That was a typo that I could have sworn I removed. Guess not. It is NOT a valid mode for dolby audio. 384 is by spec the lowest that things will play. 2 of my 3 DVD players here in my office won't touch that setting.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT

Actually, upon typing this, I realized a third option. You could transcode the first and last parts to the same Dolby Digital spec as the middle and then try to put them together. I personally think you'd still have some major issues though. Dolby Digital audio was not meant to be done this way on DVD. They can flip switches in broadcast all day long but the DVD spec is just not designed this way. Perhaps this third option is something to think about though.

Bingo. That is what is planned. It is easy for me to detect the presence of Dolby audio, already happening, and convert the LayerII lead-in/out to simple Dolby. (Going the other way almost never works because of the variations in the format.) So it will go slow while transcoding a bit, and then fast when just repacking and then slow at the very end.

But also keep in mind that the above is only for using with a DVD format. An MPEG-2 PS file can switch as often as it wants too. There is no such limitation. So for those playing with a software player all is well with just recognizing both.

But both of these areas are not really what I was talking about. Right now if you have a LII lead-in to a show, then you will get NO audio for the entire portion of the Dolby segment until the very end with the LayerII lead-out if one exists. This is just not the way to handle things. I have been talking about making this smarter.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by bato
They are releasing many fixes at a fast rate, that will make it hard to do a release with a version than a few days latter will fix more things.

jdiner, are you planning to make available only the dvdauthor update to the base release?

dvdauthor 0.6.0 released 2003-10-21
dvdauthor 0.6.1 released 2003-10-25
dvdauthor 0.6.2 released 2003-10-27
dvdauthor 0.6.3 released 2003-10-30
dvdauthor 0.6.4 released 2003-10-31

if it's just a standard exe then maybe we can compile it in on our own?
The interface changed completely for the 0.5.4 release and even more for the 0.6 releases.

I have been working them over. What is needed and how it runs and how it does what it does changes from release to release. I am waiting for one that actually fixes the things that are currently broken that we use in TyTool. As soon as we get one I will be making an updated release.

If you want to dig into it all and figure it out on your own then feel free. You will need the new style XML control/config files written, some new masks in PNG format since it no longer accepts BMP files, etc... Not impossible by any means. I have done it. :) Just a bit of a pain.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by kyle
The volume on the mpg/vob files i generate is really low--any suggestion on how to boost the volume on these (they are muxed to vob with Dolby Digital)? It would be great if there was an option to do this in TyTool (in case we have really soft input sources.

The transcoding volume is indeed low. I didn't know this until I had to use a few SA clips this last week. The author of the transcoding stuff and I have been working things over for the last few days. Better support for things coming all the way around.

There is a volume correction setting in the DLL that just needs to be represented in the GUI. I will be adding that as soon as the new DLL is ready to roll.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Originally posted by BubbleLamp
I don't see how you can worry about the DVD spec regarding DD, when we're recording (from a DTivo anyway) at a non-DVD spec resolution. Tons of what is going on seems to be non-spec, yet it's being used. If a stream can be created that lets a player handle the switches to/from DD correctly, what's the problem?
The video non-spec'ness seems to be much more flexible than the audio. The Panasonic player I prefer will play the 32k SA audio in DVD mode without fail. So will my Mintek. But my Apex 600a Will not, neither will my JVC. But all 4 will play the video at either 352x480 (which came from my SATivo and is a legal DVD size apparantly) and the 480x480 from the DTivo.

So we have to quite a bit more careful with the audio than with the video.

--jdiner

[Toddler]

Josh,

I'm not in the least complaining...I already work around this...but I was wondering if reworking your MPEG output to a more standard format is in your to-do list. Just for ease of compatibility with other applications such as Mpeg2VCR, Ulead, etc. If it's not a priority then that's certainly your call.

[mavrcksd]

--jdiner!!

Great work - still working on the other stuff.

However, when I went to click and download 8r3, it was 8r2 version inside of the zip...???

MAV

[Toddler]

Originally posted by mavrcksd
--jdiner!!

Great work - still working on the other stuff.

However, when I went to click and download 8r3, it was 8r2 version inside of the zip...???

MAV Others have had the same problem before. Try clearing your browser cache or rebooting and downloading again. Strange but it seems to work for those who've had the problem.

[jdiner]

Originally posted by Toddler
Josh,

I'm not in the least complaining...I already work around this...but I was wondering if reworking your MPEG output to a more standard format is in your to-do list. Just for ease of compatibility with other applications such as Mpeg2VCR, Ulead, etc. If it's not a priority then that's certainly your call.
It is there but it is down the list a ways. What I am working on is the features that I am going to use. I have nothing against the other tools I just have no plans to use them. So better menus, selectable colors in the menus, chapter sub-menu's, etc... come first.

--jdiner

[FredThompson]

sub-menus? cool. I may be the only person who collects cool/funny ads (like the one where the Honda is made by falling Lego-like plastic blocks) and old animation shorts. Sub-menus will be awesome! Woohoo!!

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by jdiner
The video non-spec'ness seems to be much more flexible than the audio. ... So we have to quite a bit more careful with the audio than with the video.

I was just about to say the same thing. :) The problem lies in that the DVD player is instructed what type of audio to expect given what is written in the IFO file for a given title set. Set it to MPEG audio on AC3 and you won't hear the AC3, or vice versa.

The only thing that is promising is that some stuff, such as the show "Jeremiah" that I record on Showtime, simply switches from DD2.0 to DD5.1. They're even the same bitrate (384kbps). Though most strict authoring software disallows even the change in the number of channels, I doubt this would be a problem with DVD-Lab (or the dvdauthor that jdiner uses). At least the IFO would set the player to expect Dolby Digital audio. The switch would occur in your outboard decoder simply because the stream from the player would change, much in the same way as it occurs now if you watch the program straight from the TiVo unit.

The problem lies in the stuff people report as starting off as MPEG audio, then going to Dolby Digital, and back again. There is nothing to allow for this sort of dynamic change in the IFO files. You'll set it to one type of audio and then get total silence for the other. (That's if you could even compile a disc in this manner to begin with)

EDIT: I've not had a chance to test the DD2.0 -> DD5.1 switch because I lost all of my "Dead Like Me" episodes when my drive died. I have a few Jeremiah episodes but I've not archived them yet. If anyone can confirm or deny the theory above, it would be welcomed.

[eastwind]

Originally posted by mavrcksd
--jdiner!!

Great work - still working on the other stuff.

However, when I went to click and download 8r3, it was 8r2 version inside of the zip...???

MAV

Something else to try if you're using MSIE is right-click the link and Save the file. That should get you what's actually posted instead of what's in the cache.
EW

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
EDIT: I've not had a chance to test the DD2.0 -> DD5.1 switch because I lost all of my "Dead Like Me" episodes when my drive died. I have a few Jeremiah episodes but I've not archived them yet. If anyone can confirm or deny the theory above, it would be welcomed.

Just FYI for anyone wondering... Curiosity got the best of me and I extracted a Jeremiah episode and burned it. When demuxed in DVD-Lab, it is recognized as 2/0 (I'm assuming since it starts off as such). When played back on my Sony DVP-NS700P, it plays back the audio seamlessly out the downmixed RCA outputs. The Dolby Digital playback through my Harmon/Kardon receiver seamlessly changes from 2/0 to 3/2.1 just as it does when played from the TiVo.

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by eastwind
Something else to try if you're using MSIE is right-click the link and Save the file. That should get you what's actually posted instead of what's in the cache.
EW This is also why you should set the cache to 1 day, not the default of 20 or whatever.

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by jdiner
Looks like Scott figured out a great many things about menus recently. It now has full motion/sound into into a menu. Pretty slick.

--jdiner I don't follow, you, sorry. Have been researching different sites that talk about dvdauthor in the hopes of providing some good information. Would you elaborate?

[cullen_simpson]

I used TyTool 8r3a (identified as 8.4 in title bar) to extract an
episode of Street Time from Showtime on my DTivo.

I used tytool to convert to mpg, then import/demux into DVDLab,
create a simple menu and burn. DVDLab demuxed the audio to ac3.

Then I used tytool for the whole process.

I did not do any cuts for either one.

In both cases, the audio starts out as DD 2.0 with the usual
lead in crap. Then when it was supposed to, the audio,
switched to DD 5.1 and sounded great.

I then ran audiocheck on it and it reports:

Dolby Audio segment starts at chunk #: 1
LayerII Audio segment starts at chunk #: 4095
Dolby Audio segment starts at chunk #: 4097
LayerII Audio segment starts at chunk #: 6923

Total Chunks: 6928


At the completion of the show, my receiver switched out of 5.1 and back to simple Dolby Pro Logic.

So things worked great for this one.
I will try some more tests later.

[bato]

Originally posted by FredThompson
I don't follow, you, sorry. Have been researching different sites that talk about dvdauthor in the hopes of providing some good information. Would you elaborate? http://dvdauthor.sourceforge.net

[jmhenry5150]

Hey guys!

Not to thread fart too much :)

But I have created DVD covers for these seasons that I have...but I need a way to either upload them or somewhere to host them...

Here (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=126253#post126253) is the thread I posted...

Any suggestions?

-Mike

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by jmhenry5150
Hey guys!

Not to thread fart too much :)

But I have created DVD covers for these seasons that I have...but I need a way to either upload them or somewhere to host them...

Here (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=126253#post126253) is the thread I posted...

Any suggestions?

-Mike Hang onto them for now. Josh said the tytool.com site will hold title page definitions. Maybe it will branch out. I can provide some space if needed.

I'm thinking about some similar stuff as well. I used to beta test for Teleport Pro and now I test for Offline Explorer Pro. There are a lot of really cool support and fansites for shows. I'm toying with the idea of providing the mirror definitions for people who want to make a local archive. Similar idea in that it's sort of like "extras."

Along those lines, someone has made a habit of posting "bonus" file collections for Alias episodes in which they include graphics and MP3s of the songs from each episode.

There are also quite a few good sites with layout software, graphic, video, and sound files, etc. which are free for non-commercial use. I'm back into researching that stuff and will make a proper index page.

All this sort of thing seems to lend itself well to the tytool site.

One thing I'm NOT is a grphic artist, I AM one heck of a packrat so I can at least contribute that.

[jdiner]

Originally posted by jmhenry5150
Hey guys!

Not to thread fart too much :)

But I have created DVD covers for these seasons that I have...but I need a way to either upload them or somewhere to host them...

Here (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=126253#post126253) is the thread I posted...

Any suggestions?

-Mike
Ummm. I suppose we could host and allow uploading for that too at TyTool.com. I don't see why not. But then I am not paying for the hosting, bandwidth, or disk space. And I will have to make sure we have enough before I saying anything for sure.

--jdiner

[jmhenry5150]

And I will have to make sure we have enough before I saying anything for sure.

OK - just let me know!

[jlrush]

Is there a known problem with #8v3 and Womble's MPEG-VCR editing program?

The MPG output of #7 was working fine with it, but MPEG-VCR claims the #8 output "has no sound or data error found". This is with V3.1.4 (08/2003 build) of MPEG-VCR.

JL

[Toddler]

If you're using Mpeg2VCR then you're better off using the TyTranscode module out of TyStudio for your Ty-to-MPEG conversion. See this thread for details:

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25896&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

[jlrush]

Originally posted by Toddler
[B]If you're using Mpeg2VCR then you're better off using the TyTranscode module out of TyStudio for your Ty-to-MPEG conversion.

Thanks, Toddler, and for the most part I agree. However, as far as I know, TyStudio doesn't support Series2 DTivo extracts and that's what at least half of mine are. I've been using MFS_FTP to download them and TyTools to convert them.

JL

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by jlrush
Thanks, Toddler, and for the most part I agree. However, as far as I know, TyStudio doesn't support Series2 DTivo extracts and that's what at least half of mine are. I've been using MFS_FTP to download them and TyTools to convert them.

JL

Concerning the use of MPEG-VCR on TyTool muxed MPG files, I believe jdiner already answered this here...

Originally posted by jdiner
My goal was never to build a generic Mpeg-2 parser/editor. All I ever wanted was to take the vob output from old disks and do more with it. I have patched a number of things so that they work better than they did at first, but it is by no means completely...

That being said, I believe Toddler was referencing TyProcess.exe specifically and not the TyStudio suite as a whole. I extract my TY with TyTool and then process it to an MPG file using TyProcess. I can understand maybe a client/server problem with TyStudio on s Series 2 but I can't imagine the processing of a TY with TyProcess would be any different with a TY extracted with TyTool from a Series 2 unit.

[BubbleLamp]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Concerning the use of MPEG-VCR on TyTool muxed MPG files, I believe jdiner already answered this here...



That being said, I believe Toddler was referencing TyProcess.exe specifically and not the TyStudio suite as a whole. I extract my TY with TyTool and then process it to an MPG file using TyProcess. I can understand maybe a client/server problem with TyStudio on s Series 2 but I can't imagine the processing of a TY with TyProcess would be any different with a TY extracted with TyTool from a Series 2 unit.

It was a problem with early versions of TyTool. Check with Riley, I'm sure he'll tell you.

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by BubbleLamp
It was a problem with early versions of TyTool. Check with Riley, I'm sure he'll tell you.

I'm not sure I follow. What was a problem with what version? The quote I listed was from this thread (#8) and is the version jlrush mentioned having a problem with (incidentally he mentioned not having a problem with #7). Jdiner has mentioned before that he did not make anything in TyTool to be used with 3rd party tools. I do hope he changes this stance, at least when it comes to an MPEG mux. It would save me an extra step of having to use TyProcess.

The MPG file that TyProcess produces is a standard file that never has errors and always seems to edit fine in MPEG-VCR. Those that TyTool produces tend to have errors and end up with sync problems if you edit them in other tools. I don't really know if it would be considered a "feature request" or a "gripe" or "asking for something not necessary" in some minds. Whatever you want to call it, I would certainly like to see more standard and reliable MPG files produced by TyTool. It would be nice to just choose the MPG mux for my extractions.

[BubbleLamp]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
I'm not sure I follow.

There was something in Tytools extracts that TyStudio apps had problems with. I don't know more than that. My point was, at the ty level, there evidently were differences.

I wasn't talking about the MPG outputs. Those differences have been discussed many times.

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
The MPG file that TyProcess produces is a standard file that never has errors and always seems to edit fine in MPEG-VCR. Those that TyTool produces tend to have errors and end up with sync problems if you edit them in other tools. I don't really know if it would be considered a "feature request" or a "gripe" or "asking for something not necessary" in some minds. Whatever you want to call it, I would certainly like to see more standard and reliable MPG files produced by TyTool. It would be nice to just choose the MPG mux for my extractions.
Yes, but, you are forgetting that DirecTV started service before the DVB spec was complete. The closer you get to "standard", the further you are from original.

[TRILIGHT]

Ah ok! Thanks Bubble. Back when I was testing stuff out, I noticed this myself. I wouldn't try editing a TY extracted from TyTool in TyStudio. Processing the TY to an MPG with TyProcess works quite well though and is the best way of creating an MPG that is going to be edited in MPEG-VCR. I think jlrush was confused in thinking Toddler was referring to the whole TyStudio suite. I'm fairly certain he was only referring to the use of TyProcess.exe.

Incidentally, jlrush, you might want to check out the batch file command line that Bato posted in THIS THREAD (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27691&pagenumber=2) for easy drag-n-drop processing of the extracted TY. Just drag the TY file over and drop it on the batch file and it will automatically write an MPG file that is muxed with 384kbps Dolby Digital audio! It works quite well and the resulting MPG edits just fine in MPEG-VCR in the testing I've done.

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by FredThompson
Yes, but, you are forgetting that DirecTV started service before the DVB spec was complete. The closer you get to "standard", the further you are from original.

The DVB spec has very little to do with the files we create after the TY is extracted. That will always be an "apples to oranges" comparison. I've said so myself a number of times.

It has to do with the way the file is converted from a TY to an MPG file. The actual quality of the data is not altered, it is simply muxed to an MPG file. If you wanted to stay "original", you'd leave it as a TY file. This obviously is no solution as we all know the TY files are not usable in regular editors and authoring software. I'd just like to see the TyTool option of extracting straight to an MPG file produce an MPG file that is more usable in third party apps, much the same way as the MPG files that TyProcess.exe produces. I haven't had a problem yet. Even in my tests where the MPG contained Dolby Digital audio.

[jdiner]

We are beginning to border or the advertisement ban for other tools with regards to mpeg2vcr etc... Feel free to discuss it, just please do it in a different thread.

There is no need to clutter this thread with info on these other tools.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

As for more "reliable" mpegs. They are perfectly legal. They just push the envelope in a few ways.

I know what needs to be changed to back off a bit and get a few more things running through with other programs. But it opens a can of worms for me personally in terms of support etc...

Plus there is the whole problem with ripping the guts out of a working mux'er to build a new one. Not neccessarily something I want to do right now.

--jdiner

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by jdiner
We are beginning to border or the advertisement ban for other tools with regards to mpeg2vcr etc... Feel free to discuss it, just please do it in a different thread.

There is no need to clutter this thread with info on these other tools.

--jdiner

Sorry about that. You're right. I forgot about that rule. With all deserved and intended respect... would you please consider looking into the way TyTool does the MPG mux? It would be greatly appreciated by those of us who use 3rd party tools for editing and authoring. Thanks jdiner!

[jdiner]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Sorry about that. You're right. I forgot about that rule. With all deserved and intended respect... would you please consider looking into the way TyTool does the MPG mux? It would be greatly appreciated by those of us who use 3rd party tools for editing and authoring. Thanks jdiner!
Oh I already know precisely what has to be done. I just also know how work will be involved in building it.

I had my DVD burner for almost a year before I ever used it the first time because I kept adding things. I have since flush over 350gig of TyStreams as I have started to use the tool. At this point I would rather keep processing things than put everything on hold again while I dig back into a full rebuild.

--jdiner

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by jdiner
Oh I already know precisely what has to be done. I just also know how work will be involved in building it.

I had my DVD burner for almost a year before I ever used it the first time because I kept adding things. I have since flush over 350gig of TyStreams as I have started to use the tool. At this point I would rather keep processing things than put everything on hold again while I dig back into a full rebuild.

--jdiner

That's cool. At least there is a workaround to use. If I had 350GB of stuff sitting around, I'd be concentrated on burning too! ;) Thanks for the update.

[horwitz]

First, I hope this isn't considered off-topic for this thread; if so, I'm sorry.

I have an XP SP1 (latest patches) machine and my TiVo is series 1 v3.0 with a TiVoNET card and one 120Gb HD.

There are lots of settings in TyTool and I'm wondering how I should set them to achieve my two goals:

(1) I want files that are viewable on my computer now (presumably MPEGs) and

(2) I want to be able to make DVDs when (sometime in the hopefully not-too-distant future) I get a DVD burner, preferrably from the files created for goal (1).

(Being able to make SVCDs might be nice, but is much less important since my DVD player won't play CD-Rs.)


My current settings:
UNDER "Options"
MUX: Standard MUX Output
Audio: Transcoding: None
Networking: Dbl Socket (new) mode [and my TiVo's IP is checked]
UNDER "File:Options"
Network Options: TyStream Mode


My workflow:
Get (or Get Parts)
Make Key File(s)
Edit KeyFile(s) [I set cuts here]
Multiplex File(s)

I take the final .mpg file and destroy everything else.

So far I've mostly been using this to cut little clips out of shows, but before I move on to the loads of movies I have on my TiVo, I wanted to, well, ask the questions I asked above.

Thanks a lot for any help (hell, thanks to anyone who even read this far! :) )

p.s. The clips I get seem to work most of the time in Windows Media Player, but sometimes if I try to move the slider to, say, 3/4 way through the clip, it just crashes.

[Toddler]

Originally posted by horwitz
First, I hope this isn't considered off-topic for this thread; if so, I'm sorry.I would say that judging from the information you posted, there is much to be learned. Unfortunately, this thread is not the best place for a newbie tutorial. The information you seek is already out there in other threads.

I'll just say briefly the bigest thing you should consider doing is transcoding your audio to 48k for DVD compatibility, since you said that is an eventual goal. You should also check into modifying your TiVo recording settings via TiVoWeb so that you are recording native DVD-compliant resolutions with your SA TiVo. There are detailed threads on how to do that.

[jdiner]

Ok. I had a break through tonight and I figured out a conceptually simple/slick way to increase the granularity of the edits that are capable in GopEditor and TyTool/VSplit.

It will still require a pretty serious amount of work but it is possible to do. Some reworking of GopEditor and some serious changes to the editing code in the toolset will be required.

So the question is, is it worth it? Is completely frame accurate "required" to make people here happy or is "close" enough. Close would be below the GOP level but potentially 4 to 5 unwanted frames within a GOP remaining.

I am trying to decide where I want to spend some effort next and so I am looking for a bit of feedback.

Please not a free-for-all like last time I asked this but comments about the granularity of the editing.

--jdiner

[FredThompson]

You're thinking b-frame instead of i-frame?

My opinion: if you can do it, great! If someone complains, ignore them. Remember the hype about single-frame edits in movie theaters where they had messages about buying soda and popcorn spliced into the movies? Almost nobody really noticed. This is probably the same.

In all seriousness, during normal viewing the only real visual artifacts will come from very abrupt changes between frames. Is absolute frame-accurate cutting really necessary? Not to me, very, very, very few sources really have important stuff 2 frames before a scene change to an ad.

What does tend to get on my nerves is splashes of advertising/whatever where the decision must be made to include it or lose important source due to the GOP size.

This is great news, btw, I'm excited.

[Toddler]

Personally it bugs me when either video or audio doesn't line up just perfectly at an edit point. It sounds like your new idea would be better than the current implementation, but still not 100%.

I've been one of the people asking for more granularity, but as things stand, I really don't think I'd take advantage of it. As particular as I am about quality, I think I could be willing to live without frame-accurate edits, but not if your MPEG output still isn't compatible with other applications. As long as that's the case, I would continue to do things another way.

Those of us who insist on more granularity are probably already doing things via other processes, and I for one would continue to do them that way in the quest for the best possible quality.

[FredThompson]

Uh, Toddler, if you're a stickler for quality you can't insist on frame-accurate editing of already-encoded MPEG source. Anything you do to an MPEG stream, unless it is based on I-frames, will require a re-compression and will, by definition, reduce the quality.

For those who don't understand the WHY behind my comment: MPEG compression is based on periodically having a complete frame and the frames in-between these are created by adding a set of "changes" unique to each true frame. These interim frames have a couple of different forms but can require the "change" data from previous AND subsequent frames. If you remove that data, it will screw up the frames you want to keep. Programs which allow you to edit an MPEG stream at the frame level will recompress all the frames inside this collection of partial farmes which remain. Since the compression is lossy, the quality of these frames will be less than the original. Therefore, you can have frame-accurate edits OR original quality video but NOT both.

(Trilight defense mode) There are ways to control the playback order of DVDs such that you would jump over frames you don't want shown. This will give you the appearance of both but does create a lot more work if you want to move those MPEG streams to another media and still keep the control structures. (/Trilight defense mode)

[andy_ho]

Originally posted by Toddler
Personally it bugs me when either video or audio doesn't line up just perfectly at an edit point. It sounds like your new idea would be better than the current implementation, but still not 100%.


ummm....are you saying that mpeg2vcr does? If you really check every single cut point(yes, I was crazy enough to check every single cut point back then), you would notice that It's not 100% accurate. I've been using the program for quite a while now(over a year), and sometime it misses(not very often though). Even thought I was editing dish's datastream, it should give the same result as directv's stream.

Here's an easy way to verify what I'm saying(never done it this way though). After finish editing, go all the way to the end and record the timecode(ex: 0:01:20:20). Record the number down. Process the file, and go all the way to the end and compare the timecode. If it's the same, probably accurate. If it's not the same, start looking at the cut point to see which one is off. It might take a while before you find one that is off though.

Personally, it would be more than great to have one that is close to frame accurate because most of the time, there are some black frames between the commerical and the show itself.

[Hi8]

Josh;

have you explored the possibility of including the compatibility to edit standard VOB files extracted from a DVD? The othe day I wanted to compile a DVD that was just hilights of several of my concert DVDs. I noticed in the past that Tytool accepted tytool generated VOBs by the file extension. sure enough I moved a VOB from my target DVD (not protected) and attempted to create a 'keyfile' . It went through a few hundred chunks then created an error in tytool and crashed. The resulting keyfile did actually seem functional, the little bit that was created. It (tytool/GOPEditor)seems so close to being a 'true' native VOB editting tool.

(for the record the I-Frame editing of tytool works just fine for me. no reason to get into a rewrite just to attempt frame acurate.)

[Toddler]

Originally posted by FredThompson
Uh, Toddler, if you're a stickler for quality you can't insist on frame-accurate editing of already-encoded MPEG source. Anything you do to an MPEG stream, unless it is based on I-frames, will require a re-compression and will, by definition, reduce the quality.MPEG2VCR is only reencoding the frames at the edit point, not the entire stream. When you're talking about a few frames of black, you're not dealing with the most complex source material. To the naked eye, the edits are seamless and go unnoticed, and I'm 100% satisfied with the results in that scenario. If the alternative is not being able to precisely control my edit points then I'll continue to do things the way I'm doing them already.

[Toddler]

Originally posted by andy_ho
ummm....are you saying that mpeg2vcr does? If you really check every single cut point(yes, I was crazy enough to check every single cut point back then), you would notice that It's not 100% accurate. I've been using the program for quite a while now(over a year), and sometime it misses(not very often though). Even thought I was editing dish's datastream, it should give the same result as directv's stream.Well yes, I am saying that Mpeg2VCR does. Maybe not for your material, but for mine, it does.

I'm taking SA TiVo output and (unless there are errors that only VSplit can handle) using TyTranscode to do the MPEG conversion. Yes I check every edit as I go in the Mpeg2VCR preview window, and the results after editing in Mpeg2VCR are exactly what I had in the preview window.

I've never counted the frames, but I've archived hundreds of shows that way, including every episode of The Larry Sanders Show and Curb Your Enthusiasm. I have yet to see any edits in my DVDs that came out any differently than they played in Mpeg2VCR.

I'm sure there are differences between the source MPEGs I am working with and your Dish/DirecTV datastreams, so perhaps that accounts for the difference in results.

[bato]

Originally posted by jdiner
So the question is, is it worth it? Is completely frame accurate "required" to make people here happy or is "close" enough. Close would be below the GOP level but potentially 4 to 5 unwanted frames within a GOP remaining. If you say 5 frames tops in the edits and have perfect sync (as always) in final VOBs, then I'll be more than happy.

Sometimes I use other tool to edit important (for me) material because this GOP only cuts, but normaly I can move a few frames before/after the cut (at least 5) without any audio/video problem (bad frames), so if you can make it 5 frame accurate edit, that will be great.

This and all your work with dvdauthor 0.6.x, menu backgrounds, etc. is great.

I bet most will be happy with this 5 frame editing solution.

This 5 frames is for "any" GOP? I've seen GOPs larger than 50 frames. Thanks.

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by FredThompson
(Trilight defense mode)

Toddler already pointed out exactly what I would have in his first post on this page. It has nothing to do with control in the authoring phase.

@jdiner: I personally won't make use of it but that's because the final output still won't be usable in third party apps. Now that being said, let me offer some advice from the perspective of the two types of people who probably use your app. The first will always insist on frame accurate edits. Even if you give them something close, you know they'll still long for frame accurate. Those that say they would accept less than this are most likely comprised of the same people who use your app for their entire process as it is now. If they find this acceptable now then it's not going to matter all that much to them in the grand scheme of things.

Therefore, I say concentrate your efforts on other areas unless you're willing to go all the way. You're not going to annoy those who are willing to use it as it is and you're going to draw just as much flack from those who say it's not accurate. Again, this is all just my observation/opinion.

[newbie]

I agree. The people who want frame accurate really want that. The rest of us are basically happy with what we have now. I don't think I'd spend much time with a change that isn't really isn't going to excite that many people.




Originally posted by TRILIGHT
. The first will always insist on frame accurate edits. Even if you give them something close, you know they'll still long for frame accurate. Those that say they would accept less than this are most likely comprised of the same people who use your app for their entire process as it is now. If they find this acceptable now then it's not going to matter all that much to them in the grand scheme of things.

Therefore, I say concentrate your efforts on other areas unless you're willing to go all the way. You're not going to annoy those who are willing to use it as it is and you're going to draw just as much flack from those who say it's not accurate. Again, this is all just my observation/opinion.

[BubbleLamp]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
@jdiner: I personally won't make use of it but that's because the final output still won't be usable in third party apps. Now that being said, let me offer some advice from the perspective of the two types of people who probably use your app. The first will always insist on frame accurate edits. Even if you give them something close, you know they'll still long for frame accurate. Those that say they would accept less than this are most likely comprised of the same people who use your app for their entire process as it is now. If they find this acceptable now then it's not going to matter all that much to them in the grand scheme of things.


There is a third group, who will appreciate the increased accuracy, and yet still don't use the app end to end. I think Bato and I (at least) fall into that category.

The output compatibility you talk of is a separate issue for many.

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Now that being said, let me offer some advice from the perspective of the two types of people who probably use your app.?!?! This is pure conjecture based on your opinions. It can't be advice as there's insufficient data/experience in this regard. AFAIK, there's no reliable mechanism to determine the practices and desires of people who use tytool.
The first will always insist on frame accurate edits. Even if you give them something close, you know they'll still long for frame accurate. Those that say they would accept less than this are most likely comprised of the same people who use your app for their entire process as it is now. If they find this acceptable now then it's not going to matter all that much to them in the grand scheme of things. I disagree completely. It is my choice to use only tytool. That doesn't mean I insist on absolute perfection nor does it mean I want lots of extra junk in my archives. To me, it is faster and easier to use only tytool. If there's a way to reduce the impact of unwanted crap in the stream, I'm interested. Period.

As an analogy: would you claim that most people don't care about the junk in a standard VHS edit because that's what they're used to? The options aren't $50 VCR or pro editing deck. There are things in-between. A flying erase head makes one heck of a difference but it wouldn't satisfy a frame-accurate editor.

[jdiner]

Originally posted by bato
This 5 frames is for "any" GOP? I've seen GOPs larger than 50 frames. Thanks.
I have seen GOPs with 86 frames. And one time I found one that was closer to 140 frames. Which is honestly just insane.

DVD spec wants things at 18 frames for NTSC DVD and 15 for PAL DVD. Good thing the players are as forgiving as they are.

EDIT: Man I gotta slow down. I have noticed a serious ton of typo's in my posts lately. That is not good.

--jdiner

[bettervideo]

Hi!

I'm a happy user of TYTOOL, but I've encoutered a TY stream
that has audio problems -- it sounds fine on the TIVO, but
after processing via TYTOOL (7R10, 8R3, and 8R3a), it's bad
(not sure how to describe it, it's something like fading in and
out at a 2hz rate).

I've tried downloading the stream several times, both with
7R10 and 8R3, and it's the same file (same MD5 checksum)
every time.

Interestingly, the "ancient" TYCONVERT program doesn't have
a problem with bad audio, so I know it's something with
TYTOOL itself.

In case it makes a difference, I'm running W2K Pro, no patches,
on a AMD 1800+ and ECS K7S5A motherboard.

And, as a minor note, when I first installed 8R3 I thought that
the GOP editor was broken -- I could not get it to display the
editor screen.

When I tried it on a different machine with Windows 98, it
seemed to do the same thing, but then I noticed that on W98
app expanded DOWN from the command bar (it didn't do this on
the W2K system). It turns out that the default location for the
GOP editor was off (below) my 800x600 screen, and could not
be seen. After I changed resolutions and dragged the GOP
editor screen into a better location, I could return to 800x600 and
the GOP editor would open in the visible window.

I haven't checked 8R3a for this (I didn't have time for that testing
last night), but you may want to check this out on your distributed
files.

Bill

[andy_ho]

Originally posted by Toddler

I'm taking SA TiVo output and (unless there are errors that only

my bad, I thought you were talking about VBR stream. VBR won't be 100% frame accurate, even with mpeg2vcr, but SA should be.

[jdiner]

For those that specifically want to use something else nothing I am doing will help them. I never thought for a single moment it would. They are better off using something else start to finish where editing is concerned.

But I don't honestly care. I am not interested in using Mpeg2VCR again. A $120 program that has issues like that one does doesn't interest me personally.

I tried to make this clear in my question post but I guess not. The next stage of things is for those that use TyTool start to finish, just like every menu option I have been adding for those people not the users of mpeg2vcr/tmpgenc dvdauthor/ulead/etc... Is it of enough interest for that group of people.

Trust me when I say it has been made clear by toddler, Trilight and others that they want more work from me on other fronts. I grow weary of hearing it in response to every question I ask. I answered what I am interested in working on right now.

--jdiner

[koreth]

Originally posted by FredThompson
If there's a way to reduce the impact of unwanted crap in the stream, I'm interested. Period.
I'm with FredThompson -- I'd gladly make use of better accuracy if it were there, but for most of my stuff it's not so critical to me that I want to fire up a different tool. For material where I do want frame-accurate cuts, I use MPEG-VCR, but it's a small percentage of what I extract.

At this point I'd be more concerned about some of the menu stuff (like having to use the Title button instead of the Menu button to get back to the menu) but I realize we're at the mercy of DVDAuthor to some extent there.

[jdiner]

Originally posted by Toddler

I'm taking SA TiVo output and (unless there are errors that only VSplit can handle) using TyTranscode to do the MPEG conversion.

Yeah. the SA Tivo makes things so easy it is a joke. There is always a recompression step there but depending on the source of the signal you can get better looking output that way than you can from a DTivo. The files will be larger though pretty universally.

All of the damage to streams that TyTool has to try to counteract isn't present in any form. If the "signal" to the box the SATivo is plugged into is screwed, that is fine. You see and hear garbages. But you get a perfectly MPEG-2 encoding of that garbage and hence cutting etc... always works flawlessly.

For those of us using DTivo's life is no where near as simple.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Ok. I just realized that my last statement about use with other tools might have come off a bit to harsh. That is not how I meant it. So let me break it down in simple statements:

1- Right now I am intersted in building things that I will use myself.

2- As always I want to build things that help the most people.

3- There is enough that I want and enough others to fill up my plate.

4- I am NOT saying there will never be changes to things to help with use with other tools. Just not right now. I have enough else that I want to do first.

--jdiner

[andy_ho]

Originally posted by jdiner
I have seen GOPs with 86 frames. And one time I found one that was closer to 140 frames. Which is honestly just insane.
--jdiner

Josh,

how did you count the # of frames in a GOP? I hope I'm not getting off topic by asking this question.

[kurtm]

Re: Finer cut granularity

Josh,
Personally, GOP cuts are fine with me. If you want to go finer, that sounds great, and I really think that while some will want frame-accurate cuts, realistically, it sounds like this will give them what they want....

So, if you want to implement it, I won't say no, but do I NEED it? Probably not.

[HuMan321]

I would say I fall in the category as Fred Thompson spoke about.

I now use TyTool all the way to the burning stage.

I started out wanting more accurate edits, but I could never get the consistency of a good, in sync finished product. In fact, I found I was spending a great deal of time verifying that I did not have sync issues when taking it outside TyTool. The errors could come anywhere in a show that had multiple cuts.

I now use TyTool and have run enough through it that I am confident on the sync, every time.
However, there are times when I am editing a key file that the cut points are not good choices. With this in mind I can say that I would like to see the cut choices improved.

To close, I would say I vote for more acurate cuts, but not at the sake of sync loss.

[jdiner]

I added code to VSplit that would dump calculate and dump that information for every gop within an entire TyStream.

For the DVD spec 15/18 I got that from a website where people had been reverse engineering things.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

The new editing procedure I am talking about would not incure a loss of sync. It would be as accurate as what we have. Potentially even better with what I have in mind.

I am not sure where the thought that sync would suffer came from.

--jdiner

[andy_ho]

Originally posted by HuMan321
To close, I would say I vote for more acurate cuts, but not at the sake of sync loss.

me too. I hate having sync problem. Tytool is doing a great job in keeping the audio & video in sync.

[HuMan321]

Originally posted by jdiner
The new editing procedure I am talking about would not incure a loss of sync. It would be as accurate as what we have. Potentially even better with what I have in mind.

I am not sure where the thought that sync would suffer came from.

--jdiner

I guess I could have worded that better.
I understand that your work would not have brought sync loss to TyTool.

What I meant was that I would be interested in TyTool have a finer resolution cut point.

Not having to leave TyTool for a finer cut point and potentially a sync problem.

[kyle]

Finer detail would be great--there is still an occaison here or there where the GOP edits don't let me fully cut out a commercial, or force me to cut into the start of a show. So if this could be made finer, that would be excellent!

Thanks!

[ronnythunder]

finer would be great; as far as that vs. frame accurate, any idea what kind of ratio we're talking about? if it's a "20% of the work to get to +/-5 frames, 80% more to get frame accurate", my vote is go with the "near frame accurate".

btw, i, too, use tytool from beginning to end now, so i'm definitely interested in anything you do to that end. i can't even remember the last time i used ulead or something else.

ronny

[chris_tivo]

I've been using Tytool for a few weeks now non-stop and I'm a bit lost with the frame accurate cut situation. Maybe I'm not fussy enough, but the cuts seem fine to me. I probably don't understand the situation well enough, but I assume its all to do with where the cut location can be made.

From my point of view I cut the start and end and then all the adverts out which is what tytool does now. I'm generally happy.

I have a standalone tivo and in the last couple of months I havn't noticed any sync problems (which was the reason I originally moved to tystudio). It could be because I'm using a UK SA tivo that everything seems so sorted, but well it is. Apart from the occassional hiccup everything works.

TmpGenc, IFOEdit, Moviefactory, TempGenc DVD-Author, SpruceUp I've used them all and they are gathering dust now as Tytool seems to do such a good job.

The only things I miss are the ability to bang out a quick DVD in one step (ignoring the burning as I tend to shrink the dvd files as a last stage anyway) - yes I know its been discussed and I know how to do it, but if tytool could do it I would use it on the odd occassion. Anything that saves me time would be a benefit, it can be a chore sometimes going through all the steps. I also would love to be able to create slightly better menus, but keeping it easy is the main thing I care about.

The other thing I would find useful is more integration into tytool with other apps. I use WinVo and mplayer quite a bit to check out files. I personally would find it useful to link into DvdtoOne and nero if it were possible, but really they all add to upto knocking out stages from creating that magic advert cut DVD or compilation DVD.

Feel free to flame me about any of the above :-), but I do use tytool exclusively from start to finish for burning DVDs, which has always been the point of downloading .tys for me. I also burn about 5-10 dvds a week from the Tivo so I guess I'm doing the type of thing Jdiner is talking about.

As you have probably guessed I'm more than happy with the hard work done so far and I expect so are a lot of other people. Maybe that is why the few who have problems still are so vocal, they just want to have what we have now.

[drnull]

I currently use TyTool for the extraction and conversion to .mpg. This gives me a .mpg that I can use DVDPatcher on so that TMPGEnc DVD Author doesn't complain about the resolution. Please don't reply about DVDPatcher or TMPGEnc DVD Author, I'm just stating what I use for a point of reference.

I love using the GOP editor. People have asked for .ini files and whatever so that they can configure the keystrokes to their liking. It really doesn't take that long to get used to the defaults, though, and once you get used to it, you realize the key bindings were done intelligently by jdiner because he has used it so much.

Anyways, all that to say, I would like to throw my vote in for more accurate cuts. GOP cutting is excellent. The only problem is, logically, I would assume that a GOP starts a new scene. Tragically, it doesn't. And that's a darn shame. So, like others have said, you have to either include a (sometimes significant) chunk of the commercial or lose a few words out of your program. It's not that bad, though! If it's going to be a huge amount of work, then I would imagine the masses would like for you to do more to flesh out the DVD authoring. And all of us who are getting free software won't (shouldn't) complain. But, if you feel like doing it, great! I, for one, will be very glad you've added it.

So, out of curiosity, are you planning on just blanking the audio and picture for the rest of the GOP or is there actually a way for you to end the GOP right at the b frames?

Thanks again for such a wonderful tool.

[Hi8]

Originally posted by chris_tivo

TmpGenc, IFOEdit, Moviefactory, TempGenc DVD-Author, SpruceUp I've used them all and they are gathering dust now as Tytool seems to do such a good job.


BINGO!!

[jdiner]

Hummm. I have been going over this in my head pretty much all day. The new editor could actually be made to have a granularity no worse than 2 frames now that I have thought it through a bit more.

I also figured out a way to do frame accurate editing using the same overall process. Solved a really sticky problem from before with this new idea.

Not sure what will happen with it next I will keep the forum posted.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

I figured out the last problem piece to frame accurate editing. Perfect.

I have solved how to do each piece of frame accurate editing now. The whole thing. Should actually be rather straight forward.

Fun stuff that. Gonna mean some whole new features in GopEditor, a brand new format to the keyfiles, and some new mux'ing code...

(For Trilight and others if I am redo'ing the mux'ing as planned now I will try to solve some of the issues with other tools. But I am not sure how much will have to change.)

But going all the way to frame accurate editing will take awhile. A serious while.

--jdiner

[keith721]

It's so darned satisfying to figure something out, then you sit back and estimate how much effort it will take to implement it, and think "Whoa!" (in best Keanu impression) I'm glad to hear you're figuring out more of these things, now that things have stabilized somewhat. TyTool 8r3 has to be the cleanest release yet, and that's quite the accomplishment.

Now, if only we could get stations to stop running animations (TNN) across the bottom 25 percent of the screen, masking their logos in the lower-right corner with too darned much opacity (too many), and leaving absolutely not even a single frame of nearly-all-black video after commercials, before programs resume (Fox used to be terrible about this in the X-Files.) Ah, but if that were possible, I'd probably already have a stable full of ponies, huh? :rolleyes:

[horwitz]

Originally posted by Toddler
I would say that judging from the information you posted, there is much to be learned. Unfortunately, this thread is not the best place for a newbie tutorial. The information you seek is already out there in other threads.

I'll just say briefly the bigest thing you should consider doing is transcoding your audio to 48k for DVD compatibility, since you said that is an eventual goal. You should also check into modifying your TiVo recording settings via TiVoWeb so that you are recording native DVD-compliant resolutions with your SA TiVo. There are detailed threads on how to do that.

Thanks -- I will transcode to 48k (DVD) and reset my resolution.

Can anyone point me, then, to the more appropraite threads (or, at the very least, suggest search terms) for my remaining questions? Perhaps it will be multiple threads for the following:

* are the any other settings I need to change in TyTool?

* why does Windows Media Player have some problems (e.g., crashing if I move the slider 3/4 into the MPG)? (And I'm not looking for a "Windoze sux, d00d!" thread. :rolleyes: )

* can I delete the ty files and (down the road) make DVD images from the MPGs I've created (assuming I transcode the audio and set the resolution properly)?

Thanks a lot to anyone who helps!

[bato]

Right now is common to see big GOPs with Dtivo files, SA tivo AFAIK it encodes at 15 frames per GOP, so let's do some math:
- 140 frames = 4.66 sec
- 86 frames = 2.86 sec
- 15 frames = 0.5 sec
- 5 frames = 0.16 sec
- 2 frames = 0.06 sec
so, tell me that you can't benefit for this near frame accurate editing.

EDIT: removed useless info.

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by horwitz
Thanks -- I will transcode to 48k (DVD) and reset my resolution.Why? Do this only if necessary. Transcoding changes the data stream by changing the sampling frequency, resolution, or both. In almost every case, it involves fractional math which will introduce errors. Don't transcode if you can avoid it.* why does Windows Media Player have some problems (e.g., crashing if I move the slider 3/4 into the MPG)? (And I'm not looking for a "Windoze sux, d00d!" thread. :rolleyes: )WMP was not designed for MPEG-type compression. It expects every frame to be complete. MPEG2 uses backwards and forwards-looking references which, among other limitations of WMP, create problems. Microsoft doesn't want you to use MPEG, they want you to use WM.* can I delete the ty files and (down the road) make DVD images from the MPGs I've created (assuming I transcode the audio and set the resolution properly)?yes

[horwitz]

Thanks a lot for the detailed and quick response, Fred!

Originally posted by FredThompson
Why? Do this only if necessary. Transcoding changes the data stream by changing the sampling frequency, resolution, or both. In almost every case, it involves fractional math which will introduce errors. Don't transcode if you can avoid it.
It is my understanding that many DVD players need the audio set at 48K to play them. If I leave the audio alone now, can I transcode it later if necessary (again, I don't have a DVD burner just yet)? (If so, I'll certainly leave it alone in the MPG files I'm making now.)

WMP was not designed for MPEG-type compression. It expects every frame to be complete. MPEG2 uses backwards and forwards-looking references which, among other limitations of WMP, create problems. Microsoft doesn't want you to use MPEG, they want you to use WM.
That explains a lot. Anyone have any suggestions for a free MPEG viewer?

[FredThompson]

yes

Media Player Classic or Zoom Player. Zoom Player is supposed to be better. Look for version 2.90. You will need an MPEG2 playback codec. Follow the link in my sig and look for Maximum DVD in the "Players" section. There are also some free ones in other places like doom9 or dvdrhelp

[jdiner]

Alright. Have full recompression around a cut point in place now. The output looks good.

Just for niceness sake. The quality of the frames is set to -q1. I figure it will be best to try and get the very best looking output around such a cut.

Sadly this was the easiest part. Next comes trying to figure out the very best way to show this stuff within GopEditor.

--jdiner

[Just4Fun]

I updated the step by step documentation to reflect any changes in the latest Tytool release 8v3a/8v4. There were actually surprisingly few changes.

I expect to make some changes to the DVD burn steps. Seems to me that I read that people are having some problems with Nero. I think JDiner was the one commenting on it but a quick search didn't find what I was looking for. Since I want a simple, reliable solution if Nero might be problematic I'll document something else.

Thanks again Josh for some really great work. I burn DVD's from my Tivo consistently and without problems or errors.


There are two files, one in MS .doc format ant the other in .pdf format. I'll attach on here and the other in another post.

[Just4Fun]

Here's the zipped PDF file.

[Toddler]

Originally posted by jdiner
Trust me when I say it has been made clear by toddler, Trilight and others that they want more work from me on other fronts. I grow weary of hearing it in response to every question I ask. I answered what I am interested in working on right now.

--jdiner Josh, I did not realize (or perhaps you failed to make it clear) that you were only soliciting responses from people who use TyTool exclusively from start to finish. But I think you misinterpreted my post. I've already got my process down, and I wasn't asking you to do anything for me--if you never change a thing I am still happy. I just wanted to speak for anyone using other authoring apps to say that this particular effort might be for nil, simply because your MPEG output doesn't play nicely with them. But I guess you realized that even before you posed the question. Sorry to be a pain and I'll try to be more sensitive in the future.

EDIT: Well a lot happened between the post I replied to and this one. Goodness...if frame-accurate (or within 2-3 frames) is doable after all, then I may be a convert. I'll just hold tight and wait to see how it shakes out.

[FredThompson]

I think he gets tired of constantly hearing the same complaints, especially when they're clumsily composed as an attempt to look like something else. You know what I mean, people agree to certain understandings but then still want an exception for their pet interest.

I'm not saying your comment necessarily was that. This thread is for tytool discussion and sometimes he's getting beaten up by the "yes, but MY case is different..." behavior that seems to happen. He's also the focal point so probably gets a lot of junk along those lines.

It might also be a good idea for people who are using other apps to focus on the tytool aspect of discussion in this thread. IOW, if you're using something else and it's working for you great, but every post doesn't have to include a phrase similar to, "I like tytool but it doesn't do X so I use Y..."

It's his hobby, too, and you'll notice he feels beat up a little too often. Have you seen this type of thing happen in the game emulator scene. This is probably similar.

[Toddler]

Agreed, Fred--and I don't think I am one of those who repeatedly asks for things. I really wasn't asking for anything in my post, I was just trying to answer Josh's question and give the justification for why I answered the way I did, nothing more.

[jdiner]

Wow. Well that is frightening. I am about 60% done with frame accurate editing. Guess I should have looked into it before.

The key file has been altered to allow for the showing of things within a single gop.

The next step is to alter GopEditor to have a new subwindow that shows the frames within a gop and then it is ready to roll.

--jdiner

[Sgtpepper]

jdiner,

Thats Great!! an awsome tool gets even better.. Thanks for all your work.

--SgtPepper

[jdiner]

Things are coming along nicely. Slowing down a bit in development but coming along. Everything is working out with the new algorithms I came up with.

Audio after editing remains true to form.

The video grows a bit because of the quality setting. But I didn't want to lose anything visually. Perhaps a setting somewhere down the road. But for now it is just forced to be the best possible.

--jdiner

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by jdiner
The video grows a bit because of the quality setting. But I didn't want to lose anything visually. Perhaps a setting somewhere down the road. But for now it is just forced to be the best possible.Not surprising, the only standalone MPEG2 encoder I've seen which comes close to matching our source is Canopus' ProCoder. It takes a LONG time to run but the results are nice. (You also don't get that corruption in the overscan area but that's another issue...)

Looking forward to this.

[kurtm]

Josh,
First, <disclaimer> If any of this wishing seems onerous, please feel free to ignore it, I'm not demanding anything because you're tool is spectacular already. </disclaimer>

Is there any way to add some error checking in TyTool? I'm working with semi-limited disk space on my TyTool machine, and if I'm out of space, TyTool still reports that the DVD creation completed successfully. I check each time to make sure the drive didn't fill up and there are no truncated or zero-length VOBs...

The second, more error checking to prevent my bone-headedness... If there is already a DVD in the output directory, could you give us a quick warning before proceeding with the IFO creation? I just messed up another completed DVD directory cause I forgot to change the output directory to a new one. dvdauthor doesn't blow away the VOBs, just appends, but it looks like it blows away the menu VOBs....

Just a quick request, and again, it's largely to prevent my stupidity when churning through creating DVDs...

[FredThompson]

Originally posted by kurtm
Is there any way to add some error checking in TyTool? Oh, yeah, during extraction there isn't a check on the destination space. If it fills up, the extraction tries to continue. In a way, this is nice because you can free up space and the process continues. However, if there's a bunch of stuff in a queue, there's no elegant way to stop the process, must abort tytool which can confuse the server.

[andy_ho]

Originally posted by jdiner
Alright. Have full recompression around a cut point in place now. The output looks good.

Just for niceness sake. The quality of the frames is set to -q1. I figure it will be best to try and get the very best looking output around such a cut.

Sadly this was the easiest part. Next comes trying to figure out the very best way to show this stuff within GopEditor.

--jdiner

Jdiner,

I have some suggestion about the GOPeditor. Feel free to ignore if it's not useful.

For the new GOPeditor, is it possible to make edit where you can use left arrow and right arrow to move from one GOP to another, and to use up and down arrow to move inside one GOP for close to frame accurate editing? Other combo of the key is fine as well.

Two benefit from this:

one, if there is not much loss in data, people might want to do it at GOP cut point, and so there is no need for recompression, which takes time, and increase the size.

two, there are a lot of occasion where you see a black screen at the end of the GOP. For these, you will know where the GOP ends, and cut it there, which doesn't need recompression, and won't increase the size.

[FredThompson]

Wow, that's a veyr elegent design idea. I like it.

[jdiner]

No sorry. That isn't how things are going to work. The problem is that I don't want to abandon GOP style editing. I also don't want to bloat the key files more than they already are.

So it leaves me with a dual mode app. Things can still be edited in the way that they are now. It will let a user move through the file quickly. For those shows, like Jake 2.0, that always seem to have a long fade to black going to the frame level is unneeded on almost ever cut.

For those shows or specific cuts that need more accuracy, the program will actually enter a second mode. After a fasion it has to. It had to load a great deal more data etc... It has to stay aware of what is going at the main level in the same way it always has, while adding a ton more information to things.

Not a big problem. Not sure I will like the GUI once I get that far in. But for now it is going to be 2 clearly seperated modes. Who know what the future will bring after that.

--jdiner

[jdiner]

Well things have fallen off on the schedule I wanted to stick to a bit. But for the most part things are all running well. Just checking a few more things out before moving onto the next stage.

The visual editor is working out well. The new keyfile format is solid and ready to roll.

More to come.