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View Full Version : Selling upgraded dtivo on Ebay



Loopie111
10-21-2003, 09:03 AM
I have a couple dtivo's that I want to sell on ebay. If I install 252 on these tivo's the value will increase. If I list it with lifetime no phone line required am I putting myself at risk. Has anyone been in trouble for doing this? I see other people are selling hacked versions quite often. I just dont want to get a visit from my local law enforcement officer for a couple of bucks.

fixn278
10-21-2003, 09:56 AM
If you advertise it as lifetime, you are deceiving the end-user. People pay quite a bit of money for legit lifetime subscriptions.

I would say selling a DTivo hacked specifically to enable theft of service is certainly not a smart thing to do.

captain_video
10-21-2003, 10:09 AM
I agree with fixn278 about advertising the DTivo with a lifetime sub. That is downright deceptive and unscrupulous behaviour. I routinely contact sellers of such units informing them of the error of their ways and am usually greeted with "f**k you" or "Mind your own damn business!"

There's nothing wrong with selling a hacked DTivo as long as you're honest about what you've done to it. The worst that will happen is that ebay will cancel the auction if they think you're selling something they feel violates the VeRO agreement with DTV. Just don't make a habit of it because repeat offenses could get you suspended from ebay. As long as you identify the hacks as not violating any copyrights or that it can be used to circumvent subscribing to DTV or the DVR service you should be OK. I haven't seen one of the "lifetime sub" auctions get cancelled yet.

David Bought
10-21-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by captain_video
I agree with fixn278 about advertising the DTivo with a lifetime sub. That is downright deceptive and unscrupulous behaviour. I routinely contact sellers of such units informing them of the error of their ways and am usually greeted with "f**k you" or "Mind your own damn business!"

Well what did you expect?


There's nothing wrong with selling a hacked DTivo as long as you're honest about what you've done to it. The worst that will happen is that ebay will cancel the auction if they think you're selling something they feel violates the VeRO agreement with DTV. Just don't make a habit of it because repeat offenses could get you suspended from ebay. As long as you identify the hacks as not violating any copyrights or that it can be used to circumvent subscribing to DTV or the DVR service you should be OK. I haven't seen one of the "lifetime sub" auctions get cancelled yet.

In case you can't read between the lines, that is what the original poster wants to do: offer the user a fixsubbed version of 2.5 so that the buyer pays more for the ability to circumvent the Tivo fee. Wake up and smell the fraud.

Remember how DTV let everybody buy all the service theft tools they wanted to, and then sued them two years later? Tivo will probably do the same to sellers of fixsubbed boxes. They would be foolish not to exploit this revenue source, and eBay will hand them everything they need to hang the seller's ass out to dry without a subpoena.

Loopie111
10-21-2003, 10:30 AM
I would not try to decieve anyone. I would let them know it is running xplusz 252 with no phone activated. I was just concerned if directv view this as stealing tivo service. There are alot of legit reasons to have the phone unplugged. If you pay for the tivo service does directv care about the hacked software?

fixn278
10-21-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Loopie111
I would not try to decieve anyone. I would let them know it is running xplusz 252 with no phone activated. I was just concerned if directv view this as stealing tivo service. There are alot of legit reasons to have the phone unplugged. If you pay for the tivo service does directv care about the hacked software?

I would imagine that DTV/Tivo would have an issue running v2.5.2 if they sent out v3.1 specifically to add additional security measures such as DTV access card restrictions. If you are asking if you will get in trouble, probably not. If you are asking if you should go ahead and do it, the answer is probaly no.

If you really want to do this right, upgrade to 3.1 and then activate nophone. That will give them the benefit of not having a phone-line, but will not give them any services they are not paying for.

David Bought
10-21-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by fixn278
If you are asking if you will get in trouble, probably not.

Two years ago, did you ever think that merely buying a circumvention device would cost you $3500? If you did, great - but >100,000 other idiots weren't so smart and they wound up paying the piper.

Companies start to play hardball when "everybody" is screwing them.

fixn278
10-21-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by David Bought
Two years ago, did you ever think that merely buying a circumvention device would cost you $3500? If you did, great - but >100,000 other idiots weren't so smart and they wound up paying the piper.

Companies start to play hardball when "everybody" is screwing them.

I don't disagree with you, but I think the situation was slightly different. DTV was able to get mass lists of customers and their purchases so it was easy for them to use the "shotgun approach" to squeeze $3500 out of people. I am not sure they would take the time to subpeona ebay for the information on every individual selling xtremed DTivos. Again, it's possible but not probable.

That being said, I still believe it should not be sold as a 2.5.2 unit that bypasses the daily call since it clearly gives them more services than they pay for even though DTV/Tivo applied countermeasures in the form of an upgrade. If it's truly a privacy issue, or a no phone-line issue, then there's nothing preventing them from using v3.1 of the software.

David Bought
10-21-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by fixn278
I don't disagree with you, but I think the situation was slightly different. DTV was able to get mass lists of customers and their purchases so it was easy for them to use the "shotgun approach" to squeeze $3500 out of people. I am not sure they would take the time to subpeona ebay for the information on every individual selling xtremed DTivos. Again, it's possible but not probable.

Wrong. Read eBay's "flexible" privacy policy. They give out almost everything except credit card numbers if you fax them a request on police letterhead. Customer privacy was one of the first casualties of the rampant fraud on eBay.

Also remember that users who bought a "lifetime unit" that was stuck at 2.5 are costing DTV a lot of money when they call about their locals not working - especially because you need to open the box or attach a serial cable to override upgradesoftware=false. There is a good chance that DTV and/or the end user has a cause of action against the seller because of this blatant misrepresentation.

BubbleLamp
10-21-2003, 01:18 PM
Just say it hasn't been subbed since 2.52! :D

fixn278
10-21-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by David Bought
Wrong.

Hmmm... sounds pretty definitive to me. I am not sure what we are debating here... (or why)

"Probable or not probable" is subjective. Unless you have statistics showing the number of hacked DTivos sold vs the number of people being sued by DTV for these sales, it's all just speculation.

Again, it's possible that DTV will come after you, and it's possible they won't. I am not sure that either of us are authorities on what actions DTV will take.

Loopie111
10-21-2003, 02:05 PM
3.1 sounds like the correct answer to me. Thanks for all of the response. I think I already knew the answer to the question but I guess I just didnt want to listen to common sense.

David Bought
10-21-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by fixn278
Hmmm... sounds pretty definitive to me. I am not sure what we are debating here... (or why)

"Probable or not probable" is subjective. Unless you have statistics showing the number of hacked DTivos sold vs the number of people being sued by DTV for these sales, it's all just speculation.

Again, it's possible that DTV will come after you, and it's possible they won't. I am not sure that either of us are authorities on what actions DTV will take.

Your entire argument was predicated on the fallacy that DTV would need to issue subpoenas to construct their hit list. In fact eBay is very willing and able to skip the legal red tape, because they are accustomed to dealing with hundreds or thousands of fraudulent auctions every day.

As you pointed out, we cannot predict the likelihood of DTV taking action against these individuals, but we can appreciate the fact that they have easy access to all of the information they would need if they deemed legal action to be necessary. The only thing standing between a fixsub reseller on eBay and a troublesome lawsuit is the $50 filing fee. As the dss kiddies on IRC say - Bring It On Dave! :D

fixn278
10-21-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by David Bought
Your entire argument was predicated on the fallacy that DTV would need to issue subpoenas to construct their hit list. In fact eBay is very willing and able to skip the legal red tape, because they are accustomed to dealing with hundreds or thousands of fraudulent auctions every day.


I wouldn't say my entire argument was predicated on the process itself, but more on the fact that it was more efficient for them to get a whole list at one shot rather than one auction at a time. I can see how you came to that conclusion though... not unreasonable at all.


Originally posted by David Bought
As you pointed out, we cannot predict the likelihood of DTV taking action against these individuals, but we can appreciate the fact that they have easy access to all of the information they would need if they deemed legal action to be necessary. The only thing standing between a fixsub reseller on eBay and a troublesome lawsuit is the $50 filing fee. As the dss kiddies on IRC say - Bring It On Dave! :D

Agreed. My main point was not to prevent this type of auction because of the legal consequences, but because it is just plain wrong (which we appear to agree on.)

I think we are saying the same things, we just have our own reasoning.

FYI - I prefer if Dave keeps taking my monthly subscription fees and leaves me alone :D

captain_video
10-21-2003, 07:59 PM
I don't disagree with you, but I think the situation was slightly different. DTV was able to get mass lists of customers and their purchases so it was easy for them to use the "shotgun approach" to squeeze $3500 out of people. I am not sure they would take the time to subpeona ebay for the information on every individual selling xtremed DTivos. Again, it's possible but not probable.


Selling an Xtremed Tivo is not in and of itself any indication that the seller is listing a device that is specifically used for theft of service. There are any number of reasons why someone would desire having a DTivo that didn't need a land line permanently attached. DTV requires that you connect a phone to eliminate the possibility that you may be using receivers on the same account that are physically located elsewhere, such as your neighbor's house or at a friend's. If the requirement were that strict then DTV would be sending out warning notices for not having your DTivo call home within a reasonable amount of time.

DTV had a winfall when it acquired the lists of potential hackers from the servers they seized a while back. It's unlikely they would waste the resources required to seek out and track down individuals that sell hacked DTivos when it can be easily shown that the nophone hack has legitimate uses. OTOH, DTV is going after individuals that purchased smart card programmers on the premise that their only purpose is for hacking DTV when everyone knows that this is far from the truth.

If DTV were that adamant about hacked DTivos being sold you'd never see an auction for one last until the completion date and time. Ebay polices the auctions very closely and will cut any auction short if it even has the appearance of violating the VeRO policy. I check ebay daily for bargains and I'm always looking at DTivos for sale. I have yet to see one with a "lifetime sub" get cancelled early with the exception of the fool that listed one with a NO ZKT mod.

David Bought
10-21-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by captain_video
Selling an Xtremed Tivo is not in and of itself any indication that the seller is listing a device that is specifically used for theft of service.

Correct, but advertising it as a "lifetime subscribed" Tivo is 1) fraudulent, and 2) unauthorized distribution of a circumvention device.

Dell and Microsoft were not raided for selling smartcard tools. Illegal DSS dealers were. Why? Because they advertised their devices as service theft tools. The distinction might not hold up in court but that was never DTV's concern since almost everyone settles anyway. Thus it was an extremely effective campaign that punished the guilty and hit them where it hurt.


If DTV were that adamant about hacked DTivos being sold you'd never see an auction for one last until the completion date and time.

DSS circumvention devices were sold in the open for years until DTV cracked down. Canceling auctions costs money. Suing lawbreakers makes money. Since they are a for-profit corporation which way do you think they are more likely to go?

acr2001
02-11-2004, 11:20 PM
Im thinking about selling an hdvr2 or two on ebay... it has monted 3.1 on it... along with all the usual hacks i have fixsub on it but because its 3.1 this does not circumvent the monthly fee. I will honestly explain this in the auction. The question is, would doing what i just mentioned and selling this tivo be in any way ILLEGAL? Could directv sue my a$$? Or would everything be kosher? Sorry if this is already answered on this thread but I only skimmed it :rolleyes:

Sleeper
02-12-2004, 12:43 AM
Perhaps you should read this recently closed thread about this very topic. Not only is legality an issue but so is respecting the wishes, licenses and copyrights of the authors of some tools and hacks. For instance, Tivoscripts ISO was created for the end user. Anyone using it to mod boxes for profit is violating my wishes and soon to be released license. In no way am I accusing you, just an example.

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32035

rc3105
02-12-2004, 04:40 AM
if you've installed kmem or the tivoapp hack to disable encryption that's a DMCA violation (circumventing an encryption device/method)

dtv wouldn't need to sue you, just convince the FBI to take an interest

Sleeper
02-12-2004, 10:54 AM
if you've installed kmem or the tivoapp hack to disable encryption that's a DMCA violation (circumventing an encryption device/method)

dtv wouldn't need to sue you, just convince the FBI to take an interest

Even though that is true, they are probably not interested in the small guy that does it for personal use. Doing it for profit however is a whole different case and would most likely provoke their interest.

David Bought
02-12-2004, 01:24 PM
Even though that is true, they are probably not interested in the small guy that does it for personal use. Doing it for profit however is a whole different case and would most likely provoke their interest.

Thanks for the tip, captain obvious.

AVD
02-13-2004, 10:23 PM
like I said before, what you do in the piracy, err I mean privacy of your own home, is your own buisness.

madhatter
02-14-2004, 09:07 PM
like I said before, what you do in the piracy, err I mean privacy of your own home, is your own buisness.
What about saying you broke your reciever and it wont upgrade past 25? It kinda passes the buck to the purchaser for deliberately buying a device that no longer works they way it should..?? just thought?

AVD
02-14-2004, 11:38 PM
What about saying you broke your reciever and it wont upgrade past 25? It kinda passes the buck to the purchaser for deliberately buying a device that no longer works they way it should..?? just thought?

Selling a hacked tivo on ebay falls outside of the realm of the "privacy of your own home".

malfunct
02-15-2004, 12:19 AM
Selling a hacked tivo on ebay falls outside of the realm of the "privacy of your own home".

What is so bad about putting a clean, unhacked image back on the tivo and letting it grab updates and whatnot? Nothing illegal about selling one that has a bigger hard drive but there could be about selling one with hacked software.

sonyuser
02-22-2004, 01:06 PM
Posted similar question under: General TIVO Info. I was one of the unfortunate buyers of a "Lifetime Subscribe" Series 1 TIVO units thinking it was something legit. Unit itself (physically) is a Hughes GXCEB0T TIVO unit but when hooked up, internally it has been brainwashed into thinking it is a Phillips DSR6000 (or something of that nature). My question is: Can I make a legit TIVO unit out of this machine that can be called in to DTV/TIVO and subscribed to? I am currently DVT/TIVO customer and would like to add this unit as 2nd unit in house.

captain_video
02-22-2004, 10:22 PM
No problem. You can sub a hacked DTivo just like any other DTivo. Your GXCEBOT has a 2.5Xtreme image that was originally taken from a Philips DSR6000. They're both the same which is why there was never a separate 2.5Xtreme image developed specifically for the HUghes S1 model. You probably don't want it hooked to a phone line or you'll run the risk of taking a software update that will overwrite the existing hacks. Just tell the DTV CSR it's connected to the same phone as the rest of your receivers and they'll be happy. The only caveat is that you'll need to order any PPVs via the DTV website to ensure correct billing.

sonyuser
02-22-2004, 10:58 PM
So if I understand you right, there is no need to worry that the unit has been brainwashed. Basically, call DTV and tell them I want to add my "garage sale" purchased TIVO unit to my current sub as a 2nd receiver (can use my P4 card from my old subbed IRD). As far as any model numbers or serial numbers, give them the ones that show up on the "System Information" screen when powered up and NOT the s/n or m/n of the physical HUGHES unit itself. Thanks for the reply.

captain_video
02-22-2004, 11:21 PM
You'll probably need to get a new access card from DTV, although there are certain instances where they will transfer a subbed card from one receiver to another. This is rare and not all DTV CSRs will do it for you but it has been done in the past. Provide DTV with the make and model number you see on the outside sticker of the chassis. The serial number on the sticker is necessary or they won't be able to activate the access card correctly. The numbers you see on the system information screen, with the exception of the model number, should all match what's on the outside of the chassis.