TMPGENC Plus "Stuttering Motion" when re-encoding from DTiVo MPEG

[r0x]

I attempted to re-encode a small video segment (about 4 minutes) from DTiVo's SVCD type MPEG format to 720x480 DVD compliant MPEG. (I would like to ensure playback compatibility with any DVD player.) Here is my workflow:

- Extract, make key file, edit key file, multiplex to obtain .MPG with TyTool7r10;
- Import .MPG into TMPGENC 2.5.2, follow wizard for NTSC 720x480 high resolution;
- Import TMPGENC re-encoded .MPG into DVD Lab 1.3 BETA1, follow the usual steps to make a DVD fileset with a simple menu;
- Burn with Nero 5.5.10.42.

The resulting video, when played back on my Norcent DP-300, has "stuttering motion" of the type seen in old PAL <-> NTSC standards conversion. On the other hand, when I make a DVD from the TyTool-generated .MPG (without TMPGENC re-encoding, either with TyTool or with DVD Lab) the video is perfect and the motion is smooth.

I have been able to do this before without having this "stuttering motion" problem in the video. Is there something about this particular file or is there some setting in TMPGENC that I can tweak to optimize the re-encoding process?

TIA,

r0x

[sanderton]

I get that on one of my DVD players while the same disk plays perfectly on another. Maybe it's the media, or just the hardware, but don't assume it must be your process.

[r0x]

sanderton, thanks for your reply.

I'm assuming that it's my process because I'm using the same DVD player and the same media I've successfully used before. I still have a DVD made with this process (i.e., with TMPGENC re-encoding) and it plays perfectly.

Maybe I should just be asking about optimized settings for TMPGENC when re-encoding DTiVo MPEG's.

[r0x]

Here's the answer from:

http://www.digvid.info/tmpgenc/settings.php

Field order
When interlaced source material is used this option selects which field of each video frame is presented first. Choose from:

Top field first (field A)
Bottom field first (field B)

If your source material comes from a DV camcorder, set this to "Bottom field first". If in doubt, try using "bottom field first". If you find your video flickers on playback it may be that you have selected the wrong option here. Unfortunately there is no reliable method of determining which setting to use. Trial and error is required.

TMPGENC defaults to "Top field first (field A)" - I got lucky last time but this time I had to set Field Order to "Bottom field first (field B)". Perfect video with the correct setting!

[TRILIGHT]

I actually had a need to re-encode a music video that I wanted to "crop out" the channel logo/ads that were displayed at the bottom. Just FYI for anyone using certain versions of Cinemacraft Encoder, there is a field order bug that will do this same thing to you regardless of your setting in CCE. You can correct this after you encode by using a command-line utility called "pulldown.exe". The command is as follows...

pulldown input_filename output_filename -nopulldown -tff even

[Wes]

Originally posted by r0x
I have been able to do this before without having this "stuttering motion" problem in the video. Is there something about this particular file or is there some setting in TMPGENC that I can tweak to optimize the re-encoding process?

TIA,

r0x


"stuttering motion" = you need to change the field order.

[nsysblh]

I had some telecined material that would display motion problems no matter which field was first. One way was much worse than the other.

I ended up using the even field de-interlace to get the best results (I used the adaptive one)

However, this will screw things up if the material was originally interlaced because a lot of data is thrown out.

I tried inverse telecine, and that had a few artifacts too.

There are some tools that supposedly work better, but they are more for the do-it-yourself types. (As in multiple steps / utilities to be loaded to do the process)

[TRILIGHT]

If anyone's curious, the best way to perform IVTC (inverse telecine) is via the decomb plug-in for avisynth. That being said though, if anyone is reading this and wondering, you won't get IVTC material from DTV. It's all pure interlaced which does not require IVTC. If you get this sort of problem after re-encoding the DTV material, it's due to incorrect field order. For more info on IVTC, decomb, or avisynth, you should check out DOOM9. (http://forum.doom9.org/)

[nsysblh]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
If anyone's curious, the best way to perform IVTC (inverse telecine) is via the decomb plug-in for avisynth. That being said though, if anyone is reading this and wondering, you won't get IVTC material from DTV. It's all pure interlaced which does not require IVTC. If you get this sort of problem after re-encoding the DTV material, it's due to incorrect field order. For more info on IVTC, decomb, or avisynth, you should check out DOOM9. (http://forum.doom9.org/)

Yeah, that was what I was looking at. Converting mpeg2 to avi and then back to mpeg2 seems a bit much. I know I can get some parts of the process to be "frame servers" and not have so many files around. Still seems like a lot of work...but it may end up being necessary.

I also tried rempeg2, but the quality loss is more than I can stand. It does seem to keep the motion artifacts down to *almost* none, though.

In TMPGENC, when I choose one field first, half the clip is messed up. The other way, about 1% is messed up. It isn't just field order alone. And DTV isn't exactly sending source that can easily be run thru the IVTC processes in TMPGENC. Again, a small percentage is just plain weirded out.

If you have a step by step process to use decomb, or know of one, I'd love to see it. I've looked a lot of places (and went through many google searches), and have almost given up on ever getting video to be 100% correct. Something is always going to have the be lost in the process. Makes me wonder why video extraction is such a controversial topic. You still have to futz around with it a lot after extraction.

I just wish my Pioneer DV-F727 would just play 480x480 correctly. Then I'd probably not even care about any of this.

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by nsysblh
I just wish my Pioneer DV-F727 would just play 480x480 correctly. Then I'd probably not even care about any of this.

Believe me when I say it is worth the $100 (or even less!) you'd spend on a player that will play the files as-is than to mess around with re-encoding them. The only reason I did this video was so I could use the cropping/blackout features of avisynth.

As you've already found, ReMpeg is total crap. I would never use it. The only high quality encoders I've seen are Cinemacraft and Canopus with TMPEGenc not far behind. As for IVTC, you should not have to do this. Telecine follows a pattern where only some of the frames are interlaced and this is why it presents a problem. The DTV recordings are pure interlaced and so you do not have to change them. Playback on a TV will look fine.

As for using decomb, I could explain it but it's pretty flexible so there are a number of different settings you could use. It would also require explanation of the use of Avisynth and all of this is far beyond the scope of this thread or even this forum. I suggest you read up on them over at the Doom9 forum link I provided above. As I mentioned though, you'd be better off just chunking your DVD player and getting a new one. :)

[nsysblh]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Believe me when I say it is worth the $100 (or even less!) you'd spend on a player that will play the files as-is than to mess around with re-encoding them. The only reason I did this video was so I could use the cropping/blackout features of avisynth.


But you can't easily replace a 300 disc changer.

When I last looked, there were only like 3 large changers available. The Pioneer, the Sony, and one other that was really nice and expensive.

I chose the Pioneer, and it works very well. Before we got it, I hardly ever watched dvds as it was a pain to find them and put them in the 3 disc changer I had. Now, all I have to do is find the blasted remote and select the disc I want. As far as the 480x480 format, it puts a large black band down the right side (I guess it is trying to use 720x480 instead of the 480x480). No firmware updates that I can find for it, either.

I picked up a cheap apex portable and it will play the 480x480 files just fine.

Like others here, I just want to try to make "standard" discs that will play in every player. So when that great 10,000 disc floor model comes out, there will be no reason for my archive not to work. That is, if I ever manage to archive anything. I haven't found anything I am happy with enough to burn a DVD+R with it yet.

The last problem is that sometimes 352x480 will only play on half the screen, while the other half is whatever the mpeg decoder had on it before this disc was played. This happens on the apex and the pioneer, so I'm off to try 720x480 and see if it happens there too.

[r0x]

I'm in the process of re-encoding another clip where half of it is corrupted after TMPGENC encodes it if I select "Frame A first" and the other half is messed up if I select "Frame B first". I'm not trying to IVTC. Is there any way around this other than to re-encode twice and then to edit and join at the "transition point"?

[nsysblh]

You can just deinterlace the whole thing, but you will reduce the quality. Otherwise, pieces is about it.

Anyone else started noticing these same motion artifacts in the source material? Maybe I've been staring at a monitor too long.

[Scripter]

During my edit phase, my script creates and launches the following script:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth\plugins\mpeg2dec3.dll")
TheClip=AudioDub(mpeg2source("[PATH]\[MP2 FILE]"),WAVSource("[PATH]\[WAV FILE]"))
TheParity=(GetParity(TheClip))?"Bottom Field First";"Top Field First"
MessageClip("TheParity")

Substitute the [BRACKETED] items for the correct values. This will tell you the field order of the clip in a window that either says "Bottom Field First" or "Top Field First".

In my case, I then have Macro Express put up a message box asking for the editor to check a radio button for the field order displayed. It creates an empty text file if it's Bottom Field First. When the Encoding Script launches, it tests for that file and adjusts TMPGEnc accordingly.

YMMV, Good Luck