MFSTools violates GPL license

[Sleeper]

Originally posted by ronnythunder
unless tiger comes out of retirement and enhances mfstools, special steps will have to be taken.


Originally posted by David Bought
If it's any consolation, most of the code that mfstools is based on is freely available under the GPL. Tridge has got to be rolling in his grave right now.

MFStools has got some problems that are in need of being addressed. One is the swap issue and the other is the inability to backup and create partitions 1-9 an they may exist. I would gladly take a stab at fixing these problems.

I have taken the initiative to ask tiger to release the source code in this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1537170&highlight=source#post1537170

I urge others to post the same request there as well. Hopefully he will comply with the license.

[MuscleNerd]

Does Tiger even visit AVS anymore?

And if it is true that he made an agreement directly with TiVo to not release the source code, I doubt he'd back out on that now. Who knows, though...

[ronnythunder]

sleeper, what proof do you have that mfstools uses gpl code?

also, right or wrong, tiger has said he's not releasing the source, period. i can go along with that (begrudgingly), but i wish he'd either (a) make some updates for what you describe plus some other stuff and/or (b) find someone to be a "trustee" or partner that can make the mods but still keep the code under wraps.

ronny

[Sleeper]

Originally posted by ronnythunder
sleeper, what proof do you have that mfstools uses gpl code?

None. My statements are sole based on posts that I have read on this board as a result of searching for "mfstools" & "gpl". However the work of Tridge is often spoke of. Remember I am relatively new here and am not familiar with all the history.

also, right or wrong, tiger has said he's not releasing the source, period. i can go along with that (begrudgingly), but i wish he'd either (a) make some updates for what you describe plus some other stuff and/or (b) find someone to be a "trustee" or partner that can make the mods but still keep the code under wraps.

I can understand his reluctance. Tivo can probably afford lawyers. No one needs that headache. Although, Tivo just reported losses of 8 million, so maybe they don't have money for lawyers.

[TheWickedPriest]

**** Tiger and all other closed-source developers. We can recreate this thing ourselves (and do it better); it's not that hard. All it takes is a little time and effort.

[mrblack51]

all of tridge's work was released under the GPL. the question is whether version 1.0 or 2.0 of mfstools was based on tridges work. -or- if he included any gpl'd work. zlib is essentially a "do whatever you want" license, so thats a dead end.

[shawn]

It just ends up here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3060832781&category=11725

[Sleeper]

Originally posted by shawn
It just ends up here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3060832781&category=11725

That's an outrage

I hope no one has that idea for my ISO. It was meant to be FREE

[mrblack51]

Originally posted by Sleeper
That's an outrage

I hope no one has that idea for my ISO. It was meant to be FREE

i certainly hope that you put the appropriate language into a license.txt file on it then, specifically stating that it may not be sold, even for duplication costs or whatever. no license means open season

[shawn]

that probably is yours sleeper as well as mfstools.
Id email him and threaten to sue him.

[TheWickedPriest]

At least the labels are nice.

[captain_video]

This is completely unacceptable. I just sent the seller a nastygram to cease and desist any further sales or face possible litigation. I also sent the winning bidder the links to download the software for free.

[Sleeper]

Everyone cool you jets! I am in currently in contact with the seller. He says that it is not my ISO/scripts - so let's give him the benefit of the doubt. Also, I would like to take a look at what he has done.

[Sleeper]

Guys, I appreciate you support. I just received a second reply from the seller. The disks that he is selling are NOT MY WORK

quoted from ebay seller's email
I sell the fact that you can Upgrade the size of the disk but also include the information to do the hacks below. I have simply burned a bootable copy of MFS Tools 2 on to a CD for them to use and included aninstructional guide I wrote in HTML on the other disk that lays out the complete details in an easy to follow step by step guide showing what to type and when as well as several other public domain articals from the web that explain how to do the hacks below. The second disk also has the hacks below included on it.


Kernel hack
Bash 2.02
USB Net card
Tivo Web
Tivo FTP
Ty tools for video transfer

[JJBliss]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Guys, I appreciate you support. I just received a second reply from the seller. The disks that he is selling are NOT MY WORK

quoted from ebay seller's email
<kerchunk>

The second disk also has the hacks below included on it.

Kernel hack
Bash 2.02
USB Net card
Tivo Web
Tivo FTP
Ty tools for video transfer

How do you figure jdiner feels about the sale of Ty tools?

[Sleeper]

Originally posted by JJBliss
How do you figure jdiner feels about the sale of Ty tools?

He's probably not too thrilled. I'm not defending this guys actions. However he was pretty decent to me when I contacted him. His actions certainly violate the spirit of freely distributed software and profiting from others' hard work. While we're at it, so do the Tivo hacking books.

[Hi8]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Originally posted by JJBliss
How do you figure jdiner feels about the sale of Ty tools?

He's probably not too thrilled. I'm not defending this guys actions. However he was pretty decent to me when I contacted him. His actions certainly violate the spirit of freely distributed software and profiting from others' hard work. While we're at it, so do the Tivo hacking books.

I'm not sure why everyone is making a big deal out of someone selling discs - and charging a duplication fee for it. I don't agree with it totally, but how many of you have ansered questions to Noobs that couldn't even burn a CDROM from an image.

There are/were allot of companies, and or people that did this kinda thing, Simtel.net comes to mind... and there were many more. I think I even had a subscription to one of them, I would get a disc a month.


They/He legally charges for (a reasonable fee for) the duplication, labeling & shipping for the discs NOT the software.

It's not a business that I would go into, but I understand how there would be a market for it.

I just got a disc included in the "Hacking the TiVo" that includes such software; isn't that even more questionable?

[Scotty79]

Those bastards at tivocommunity ruin the fun of hacking they call us the other forums but all there hacks come from here i'm not even a member there and i was called insane because of my 4.0 psycho post (stop staring at me AHHHHHHHHHH) here a thought on the mfstools why not make a new one yeah i know crazy

[David Bought]

Somehow my on-topic post got moved to the captain's flamewar thread. It has been reproduced here:

At least one independent examination of the object code found many similarities between Mfstools and other GPL Tivo software.

Tiger assumed that the fact that he was a "hero" at AVS would protect him from his obligations under the GPL. He failed to predict the rise of critical thinkers in the Tivo community. His motivation was clearly glory, and not unlike corbelli, he receded from the limelight once he was able to fill the void in his life with the adoration of many thousands of wannabe "hackers" who can't use a command line without cutting and pasting.

[jkeegan]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Originally posted by JJBliss
How do you figure jdiner feels about the sale of Ty tools?

He's probably not too thrilled. I'm not defending this guys actions. However he was pretty decent to me when I contacted him. His actions certainly violate the spirit of freely distributed software and profiting from others' hard work. While we're at it, so do the Tivo hacking books.

Whoa, hold up there.. As the author of one of those books (Hacking TiVo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764543369/ref=nosim/keeganorg-20)), I'd like to defend my writing of the book. Having been a part of the TiVo hacking community for over three years now (and being the author of three of the modules that make up TivoWeb), it's not like I haven't contributed. Next, tivo hacking sites that used to exist have disappeared - I wanted a way to preserve what we'd all worked on. I don't ship anything on the book's CD that wasn't either GPL'ed or that we had to get the authors' permissions for. And I can assure you, I certainly didn't do it to make money.. Being a software engineer and having taken time out of my career to write the book was almost like charity - writers don't get much at all.

For me at least, writing the book was about pulling more people into our hobby. The entire book is written such that you can install/use each hack on your own (if you don't want to install a /var/hack tree all at once), and it encourages you to go through what we all went through installing the hacks that are described. But the real push is to get you to the last third of the book, dedicated to writing your own hacks.

Everything I write about is out there for free - that's what we've all done with the stuff we wrote. I just pull it all together in one place, provide a bit of history, and walk you through it.

[David Bought]

Originally posted by jkeegan
For me at least, writing the book was about pulling more people into our hobby.

News flash: it's okay to admit you want to make money from your intimate knowledge of the Tivo. Not everybody on this site is a pinko asshole. :D

I think it's great that you want to bring more developers into the fold. However it is important to realize that the biggest problem we have comes from attrition, not from a lack of talented people.

[jkeegan]

Originally posted by David Bought
News flash: it's okay to admit you want to make money from your intimate knowledge of the Tivo. Not everybody on this site is a pinko asshole. :D

:) Thanks for the support, but seriously, writers don't make anything.. that's not just a line (I wish they did!). When I considered writing the book, my wife and I agreed it'd be a cool enough thing to do that it'd justify the huge financial loss we'd undertake (compared with the usual salary for a principal software engineer).

I'd say the most selfish reasons I did this were that I wanted the hobby I'd spent years on to be remembered, that I wanted it to continue, and I guess - sure - I'd like to try something new (writing). Here's an admission - I admit I enjoy watching the book get sold, because it means people are benefiting from my hard work. But I don't let myself forget that it doesn't translate into any meaningful money (unfortunately). :)


I think it's great that you want to bring more developers into the fold. However it is important to realize that the biggest problem we have comes from attrition, not from a lack of talented people.

In my experience, I've found that there are a bunch of reasons that people take time off (temporarily or permanently) from this hobby:

[list=1]
There are many new people who want to come up to speed (at least to some level - most want to install existing hacks, then a smaller group want to write their own stuff too). Hearing the same questions over and over from these people can get tiring, and many experienced people leave for that reason.
Other developments sometimes fuel further developments. If there's a perception that innovation is drying up, it can sometimes lead one to wonder what else they should be doing with their time. Watching new hacks released can serve as motivation to work on that next hack on the back burner. (I personally haven't felt this desire, but I've heard others who have said this to me)
Entrenched "experts" sometimes fall into the situation where they grow reluctant to talk about everything they've found, because they feel they're being used by people who haven't spent as much time doing work. This can hinder further development based on previous research, due to the high ramp-up time to get up to speed (similar to #1 above).
[/list=1]

Personally, I believe the book helps all three of those cases (as well as bringing in new talent to replace those we've lost to attrition). Case #1 is helped by having a place to send people (the book) when frequently asked questions arise. For a while, the existing FAQs helped, but they fell way behind (and were written by many people). Hopefully this will cut down on some of the chatter (more than segmented message boards has done).

Case #2 will be addressed if people indeed read the book, become motivated to write new hacks, and write them.

Case #3 is helped by relieving the number of questions by people trying to learn more. I provide a detailed description of the API used to access MFS in tivosh, hopefully cutting down on questions like "why can't I do this?" and "what is making this not work?".

Anyway, thanks again for the support - but I was serious, I didn't do it for the (far less) money. :)

[wkozun]

Sleeper-

If you ever get around to rewriting mfstools I think something that would be of great benefit would be to be able to do an mfs_backup your TiVo over the network. That would negate the need to pull the drive to do a backup which would make it much more likely that people would do regular backups.

[Sleeper]

Originally posted by wkozun
Sleeper-

If you ever get around to rewriting mfstools I think something that would be of great benefit would be to be able to do an mfs_backup your TiVo over the network. That would negate the need to pull the drive to do a backup which would make it much more likely that people would do regular backups.

Actually, that could be done without backing up the MFS partitions and without using MFSTools. My next release of the backup/restore backups partitions 1 to 9 and boot parameters without using mfstools. Adapting it to over the network would not be that difficult.

After your tivo gets hosed, how do you restore it if you can't get the network running?

I have read some post about the bios being able to boot over the network. Tha would be cool if it could be done. Then you could install all the hacks right over the network.

[wkozun]

Originally posted by Sleeper
After your tivo gets hosed, how do you restore it if you can't get the network running?

I don't know that I would want to restore over the network, but being able to do a weekly or monthly backup in a relatively painless way would be very beneficial.

My TiVo never calls the mothership as I am in Canada and TiVo isn't interested (at least not yet) in offering their service here. At least this means I don't have to worry about my system getting upgraded by TiVo. But I have to deal with my own channel lineup changes which have been occurring every month or so recently so being able to backup painlessly would be nice so that if my TiVo did get hosed I would have an up-to-date backup to restore.