Copyright, DMCA & such: formerly "HD-DirecTivo" [Archive] - DealDatabase Forum - Deals, Freebies, and TiVo & DirecTivo Hacking

bdonalds

12-20-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
Two things I am eagerly wondering about these units:

1) How much will it cost?
2) Will the price be so high, that most will be afraid to open the box (AND hack the prom?)

Well, as a point of reference, the Dish Network DVR 921 is going for around $1000. It seems to have the same featureset....250 Gig, OTA + satellite recording.

As far as question 2...There is probably no price high enough to keep this group from tearing into it. A PROM hack might be a little scary for alot of end users though....

The big problem in the near future is storage. 250 Gig only stores ~25 hours of HD programming. Extraction will be very time consuming, and we will need terabytes of storage where ever we are archiving. HD-DVDRs are probably quite a ways out, especially until they get to be affordable. ...Well hell, the same can be said for just the players, let alone recorders.

I am going to start installing a SAN at home in preparation! Is anyone working on a Fibre Channel hack?? :)

Bryan

r0x

12-20-2003, 12:43 PM

Here's a picture from the CES web site:

http://www.cesweb.org/shared_files/innovations/innovations_2004/2787/mainphoto2787.jpg

David Bought

12-20-2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by bdonalds
A PROM hack might be a little scary for alot of end users though....

Absolutely - that is the best possible outcome. Tivo hacking is not for everyone: if you do not have the technical skills to contribute something back you should not be leeching off the community.

tiguere

12-20-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by David Bought
Absolutely - that is the best possible outcome. Tivo hacking is not for everyone: if you do not have the technical skills to contribute something back you should not be leeching off the community.

What's wrong with this guy? Man! you SHOULD really go ahead and shoot that guy who stole your girlfriend! that way you wouldn't be so angry when you come to these forums.

Jesus! I really liked this guy because he seemed to be knowledgeable, but now he seems to be getting more and more annoying with the time. :confused:

David Bought

12-20-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by tiguere
Jesus! I really liked this guy because he seemed to be knowledgeable, but now he seems to be getting more and more annoying with the time. :confused:

Now that we have gotten the personal issues out of the way, answer me this: if S1 hacking was confined to a small group of talented individuals, do you really believe Tivo would have bothered to lock down the S2?

And if S2 hacking was confined to a small group of talented individuals, do you really believe Tivo would be shutting down all of the sites where we shared files?

We are under attack because we have repeatedly made the mistake of assisting the masses to hack their Tivos and do unsavory things with them. The availability and ease of service theft / extraction hacks is at an all time high. Since Tivo has not been able to trust us to keep these things in relative obscurity where they belong, they have been forced by their shareholders and by DTV to clamp down. That is the price we are paying for ignoring the wisdom of Tridge and the founding fathers.

Now it's your turn: tell me how the story ends. For bonus points, explain one design change Tivo could have made in the HD Tivo that kills the PROM mod.

bdonalds

12-20-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by David Bought
Absolutely - that is the best possible outcome. Tivo hacking is not for everyone: if you do not have the technical skills to contribute something back you should not be leeching off the community.

That's absolutely ridiculous.

I do agree with part of what you may be inferring, that this should not be a "hand-holding" forum--this is NOT a Linux tutorial site. But there is no reason that almost anyone can implement most of these solutions without being a detriment to the forum.

The learning curve is etiquette. People who are unfamiliar with protocol on support forums is probably what irks you the most, David, and everyone else who has been here for a long time, really. Google is a great reference tool--but what can happen is, someone searches for "tivo hack hard drive", gets a link to a specific post, and just posts a question without regard to the context of the thread, or taking any time to search the rest of the forum. This is not a problem specific to this forum...most forums with quality contributors have horrendous signal to noise ratios.

There IS a path for the n00b to take. I took it myself. I came in with PC hardware knowledge, some Solaris, and some rudimentary LINUX. By reading and reading and lurking, I was able to get Sleeper's ISO working. I have seen the Sleeper ISO referred to as a "pussy" way out, but it is really the best way to get started, and a good way to learn about what you are doing, and if you READ READ READ, and follow the directions, it is easy to implement. Does Sleeper think I am a leech because I used his ISO without providing any of my own hacks? Probably not...you don't create a solution like that if you don't intend people to use it. Does he get frustrated by stupid questions, or questions that have been sufficiently covered in the forum? Probably yes.

This forum took me from not owning a TiVo, to being a fanatic in a few months. It has also made me want to learn more about LINUX. Is that a bad thing? Your "best possible outcome" would not have gotten me there.

If you say that this forum and its contents are for the experts only, there is zero growth in the pool of experts. As more people that get involved and learn, more ideas come forth, and more solutions develop, and I think THAT is the best possible outcome.

All that said, I would encourage everyone, especially leeches like myself, to contribute to the site to keep it going. A small donation is a bargain compared to the benefits of these hacks. Click the link below for info!

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/announcement.php?s=&forumid=25

Holy crap...speaking of newbie violations, I may have set the record for the most off-topic post in the history of this board! :D

Happy Holidays!

Bryan

bdonalds

12-20-2003, 02:34 PM

AlphaWolf

12-20-2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by David Bought
explain one design change Tivo could have made in the HD Tivo that kills the PROM mod.

Hmmm...I would be interested to hear this. Thus far, there are no major set top boxes that can't be exploited with a prom/tsop attack.

My guess is that to do this, they would have to encrypt it somehow? Or maybe embedd the prom into one of the major ICs?

rc3105

12-20-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by David Bought
For bonus points, explain one design change Tivo could have made in the HD Tivo that kills the PROM mod.
lets not give tivo any ideas - least not till AFTER they roll out the hd recievers ;)

GREEK

12-21-2003, 04:00 AM

2 HD sat inputs, and 2 OTA inputs on this puppy. Yes the design is similar to sereis2, heard it has a rid chip as well, dtv plans on incorporating it into every new receiver.

InterMurph

12-23-2003, 12:34 PM

I am not a beta tester for this product, but I saw one of these units in action yesterday. Naturally I can't say where, or who.

From the front, it looks exactly like the Hughes HDVR2 unit, except that in place of the Hughes logo, there is a DirecTV logo.

Technically speaking, it has two HD satellite inputs and one over-the-air input. The OTA signal is split internally, so you don't have to run two cables. The rest of the info around this is correct: you can record two shows at once, in any combination of OTA and HD satellite.

It has a single 250GB disk.

When you are watching a non-HD show, the TiVo unit can either stretch the image to fit the TV, or it can add bars on the left and right of the picture to maintain the original size/ratio. The color of the bars can be specified; I saw them set to gray.

Somebody told me that they would prefer that the TiVo not do any of this, since his Panasonic plasma TV did a much better job of stretching, adding bars, etc.

This same person also cycled through the various output formats (720p, 720i, 1080p, 1080i), and I'm 95% sure that he did this with the TiVo remote.

The best part of the demo was the pre-recorded HD show selection. It was the Patriots-Jets game from Saturday, and it was cued up to the infamous Joe Namath/Suzy Kolber interview. I hadn't seen it before, and it was positively creepy in HD!

That's just about all I know about the unit, except that it made me want to run out and buy a Panasonic plasma TV.

FredThompson

12-23-2003, 01:07 PM

A couple of months ago I called DirecTV tech support to get one of my cards kickstarted. They said the new units were being made by Sony with a list price of around $1400. Take it for what it's worth, just a comment from them a while ago.

splitsec

12-23-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by David Bought
Now that we have gotten the personal issues out of the way, answer me this: if S1 hacking was confined to a small group of talented individuals, do you really believe Tivo would have bothered to lock down the S2?
Yes, I think they would have. Tivo is in a tricky situation, the media companies want DRM management in all future devices capable of playing "their" content.

Tivo already has functions which threaten a current revenue stream (advertising) and thus are in need to show that they will play ball.

If there was only a hand full of people that were able to hack the Tivo, but everyone knew it was hackable Tivo would still be obliged to "lock" it down as you say.

And if S2 hacking was confined to a small group of talented individuals, do you really believe Tivo would be shutting down all of the sites where we shared files?

Yes, it is fairly obviously the lawyers (and accountants) are getting involved here, and are trying to protect Tivo's intellectual property and contracts that they have with folks like DirecTv. The competition is creeping up on Tivo (I don't personally think they hold a candle to Tivo at the moment, but the best product does not always win).

We are under attack because we have repeatedly made the mistake of assisting the masses to hack their Tivos and do unsavory things with them.

hmm.. Are you saying that you use to provide hints for hacking service theft? Or are you saying that the "service thieves" were doing the work themselves? If the first, then it is good that you stopped helping do something you don't agree with. If the second, I don't see your point, as they are doing all the work themselves.

The availability and ease of service theft / extraction hacks is at an all time high.

Sorry, I don't see the corelation between n00bs wanting to Monte their system to use things like TivoWeb, and maintain their privacy, and the hacks that we don't talk about here.

Since Tivo has not been able to trust us to keep these things in relative obscurity where they belong, they have been forced by their shareholders and by DTV to clamp down. That is the price we are paying for ignoring the wisdom of Tridge and the founding fathers.

You are right, what was I thinking, we should all hack the Tivo in private, and we shouldn't use others work. I am going to go format my tivo now, and start working on an OS that I can use to control these two sat tuners attached to a hard drive. NOT! Things advance when others work together on a cause.

Now it's your turn: tell me how the story ends.

1. You continue to berate people for asking questions and trying to learn. (Yes, I said learn, just because a user is not at the level you are, does not mean they are not learning. Corbelli's (SP?) guide was flawed, and perhaps did not have enough "learning" involved in it. Sleeper's scripts are helpful, try to teach as they perform the tasks, and removes some of the tedious (as in it has been solved, why solve it again a dozen times) tasks of hacking the Tivo and allows people to move onto putting that time and energy into doing new hacks.

2. People will keep asking questions, and other people will keep helping them. Thank you to all that help, and to those who aren't afraid to ask the questions. As time permits, I too will try to answer questions.

3. Tivo will continue to be a company, and will operate like a company and attempt to live up to their contracts, please their shareholders, their customers, and make a product for a profit.

4. Tivo will continue to lock down their box (with or without people on this forum or any other forum talking about modifying the boxes). Tivo most likely had to comit to doing some of this in order to get some licenses in regards to HD OTA. Just like the phone company has to build in the circuits to be able to tap your phone. Not because you have something to say that someone might be interested in, but it is part of doing business in that market.

5. Some people will be happy, some people will be sad, and others will just be miserable. What do you choose to be? (yes, it is a choice!)

For bonus points, explain one design change Tivo could have made in the HD Tivo that kills the PROM mod.
Have a custom processor made with a built in ROM that does a digital signature check on the PROM before loading and booting it.

Question for you: If you don't think that these people should be helped, and you don't have anything constructive to say, why do you respond to so many posts? You can be just as unhelpful to these people by saying nothing at all.

Splitsec

PS. Sorry everyone for the long winded post, just had to get it off my chest. Don't worry, I am sure I will only get a short one sentence flippant response if anything at all.

newbie

12-23-2003, 07:28 PM

TCF is more or less an official Tivo forum. They pay for much of it, own the domain name, set some of the rules and directly link to it from their support pages. I think the number of people trying to circumvent their rules by directly (or indirectly) linking to DDB, posting polls on using 4.0 on DTivo units and providing direct links to the FTP sites is the MAIN reason for the attack. If a user can't find DDB after a suggestion to try Google than they probably aren't the type of people who should be hacking their units.

The attack didn't start until AFTER some people started a "crusade" to work around TTC rules and filters. We blast people who talk about Directv hacking here (against DDB rules) but don't seem to want to respect TCF rules.

Originally posted by David Bought
We are under attack because we have repeatedly made the mistake of assisting the masses to hack their Tivos and do unsavory things with them. The availability and ease of service theft / extraction hacks is at an all time high. Since Tivo has not been able to trust us to keep these things in relative obscurity where they belong, they have been forced by their shareholders and by DTV to clamp down. That is the price we are paying for ignoring the wisdom of Tridge and the founding fathers.

Now it's your turn: tell me how the story ends. For bonus points, explain one design change Tivo could have made in the HD Tivo that kills the PROM mod.

David Bought

12-23-2003, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by splitsec
If there was only a hand full of people that were able to hack the Tivo, but everyone knew it was hackable Tivo would still be obliged to "lock" it down as you say.

Please cite a precedent for this.

Specifically, the situation you are proposing is: something is hackable, not a lot of people actually are capable of hacking it, and the company that owns the technology still spends a lot of money closing the hole.

My counterexample is the Sony XM radio hack, which has been public for over a year, exploited by very few individuals, and is still working. And my thesis is that if Tivo hacking were half as difficult as that, Tivo would have left us alone.

Sorry, I don't see the corelation between n00bs wanting to Monte their system to use things like TivoWeb, and maintain their privacy, and the hacks that we don't talk about here.

Then you're either blind or stupid. Count the number of threads I've had to close in the past month from people asking how to perform the "HU hack". Tivo knows that a lot of people come to sites like this ONLY to enable service theft hacks on their PVR. It is unfortunate that so many legitimate hacks like monte are abused as stepping stones on the path to a felony. MuscleNerd is undoubtedly spinning in his grave right now.

You are right, what was I thinking, we should all hack the Tivo in private,

Like it or not, that is where development is going: small groups of developers who aren't glory whores (http://www.generationtivo.com) and who don't have a need to share their work with useless freeloaders. The honeymoon is over.

Have a custom processor made with a built in ROM that does a digital signature check on the PROM before loading and booting it.

Great, now give me a plausible solution.

Originally posted by newbie
The attack didn't start until AFTER some people started a "crusade" to work around TTC rules and filters. We blast people who talk about Directv hacking here (against DDB rules) but don't seem to want to respect TCF rules.

Agreed. Anybody from TCF who has anything worth contributing has already left that site and arrived here. That describes me and that describes a lot of others. Continuing to use that site for anything, advocacy included, is pointless.

AlphaWolf

12-24-2003, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by David Bought

Agreed. Anybody from TCF who has anything worth contributing has already left that site and arrived here. That describes me and that describes a lot of others. Continuing to use that site for anything, advocacy included, is pointless.

What if you use it as a means to make david bott piss his pants? :D

Sleeper

12-25-2003, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by David Bought
We are under attack because we have repeatedly made the mistake of assisting the masses to hack their Tivos and do unsavory things with them. The availability and ease of service theft / extraction hacks is at an all time high. Since Tivo has not been able to trust us to keep these things in relative obscurity where they belong, they have been forced by their shareholders and by DTV to clamp down. That is the price we are paying for ignoring the wisdom of Tridge and the founding fathers.

I know that this attitude is indirectly aimed at me - you have expressed it in other posts as well. I disagree with it. If everyone that owned a car could add a 2 dollar device to their carb that would double their gas mileage and increase their horsepower would that be illegal? No certainly not, but the oil companies would certainly make the case that it is.

Being able to hack my tivo was a major decision in purchasing it. My scripts do not steal service either from DirectTv or Tivo. Also the methods that I employ are in the public domain - they are published in books. I do not support theft of service, neither does DDB.

The public, yes the masses, have the right to hack their tivos and I have enabled them to do so. I think what you really take offense to is that they can now hack their units without the necessary knowledge and skills to do it own their own.

The recent actions by tivo were inevitable. They should raise a flag. We have to walk a fine line when soupping up our personal video recorders. We should try not to piss Tivo off so badly that we have to take what we percieve as legal activities underground. Unfortunatley, no matter what we do Tivo has to answer to a higher authority(one with deeper pockets). We can only guess as to how far they will go to protect their content.

splitsec

12-25-2003, 02:57 AM

Sleeper: I think DB attacks everyone equally, at least he is consistent in that.

His logic is hard to follow though. He thinks that because people ask for the theft of service hacks here that it is somehow a poor reflection on those that are adding storage space, or other apps to their Tivo.

That is like saying that people walk into bars and ask if they can buy a joint, or score some coke. Therefore the bar should stop selling booze, and cigarettes. When they should really be just telling people (like we do) that they don't condone that kind of thing on their premises. It isn't the bars fault that some people are of that mindset, and it isn't DDB's fault that people see the word hack, and think to ask about service theft. That is the mainstream media's fault for misusing the word hack for so long...

Split

David Bought

12-29-2003, 02:11 PM

The public, yes the masses, have the right to hack their tivos and I have enabled them to do so.

Yes, and we are paying the price for your stupidity. We have seen or will see tighter box security, fewer hacker-friendly interfaces, fewer instances of symbol name leakage, etc. because people like you want to enable the unwashed masses to do things that Tivo doesn't want them to do. You have helped Tivo form an "us-versus-them" culture whereas in the past they were willing to ignore the hacker niche. I for one hope that if anybody gets sued because of the mainstream S2 hacking phenomenon, it is you and corbelli. Unfortunately it appears that you might not have broken any laws. :(

You had two choices when you came here. You had the option of looking out for the developers' interests, or you had the option of looking out for the idiot end-users' interests. Only ONE of those parties enables this hobby to survive, and you slapped them right in the face. Congratulations - I hope your army of clueless fanboys appreciates it, because the rest of us sure don't.

fr3d

12-29-2003, 03:25 PM

Hmmm...I would be interested to hear this. Thus far, there are no major set top boxes that can't be exploited with a prom/tsop attack.

My guess is that to do this, they would have to encrypt it somehow? Or maybe embedd the prom into one of the major ICs?

I work alot with cryptographic hardware which uses protection schemes for to address these specific attack vectors. Some example tecniques could be to:
1. Wrap the bios with a wire mesh that if broken disables the hardware, the wire mesh would be epoxied over.
2. Wrap the chassis interior (top/bottom) with a wire mesh, when closed the circuit (wire mesh) is complete if the circuit is broken for any reason the device could disable the hardware.

The good news (for us) is that these types of techniques add a fair amount of cost to the the manufacturing and support of each device, and in such a price point sensitive market its unlikley (in my opionion, with my base understanding of their business) that they would want to do this.

Fr3d

fr3d

12-29-2003, 03:40 PM

Yes, and we are paying the price for your stupidity. We have seen or will see tighter box security, fewer hacker-friendly interfaces, fewer instances of symbol name leakage, etc. because people like you want to enable the unwashed masses to do things that Tivo doesn't want them to do. You have helped Tivo form an "us-versus-them" culture whereas in the past they were willing to ignore the hacker niche. I for one hope that if anybody gets sued because of the mainstream S2 hacking phenomenon, it is you and corbelli. Unfortunately it appears that you might not have broken any laws. :(

You had two choices when you came here. You had the option of looking out for the developers' interests, or you had the option of looking out for the ***** end-users' interests. Only ONE of those parties enables this hobby to survive, and you slapped them right in the face. Congratulations - I hope your army of clueless fanboys appreciates it, because the rest of us sure don't.

David - From a business standpoint Tivo, Replay, MSFT need to mitigate their own risks, in this case from the content companies. Your premise seems to be based on the fact if no one "hacked" these devices the content providers would not perceive any risk of theft and as such the manufacturers of Tivo like devices would not have any legal risk from these providers.

Sorry but that just doesn't make sense, I do a fair amount of work in info sec and its potential risk that needs to be mitigated, especialy in a commercial device. So lets look at the Tivo business model, the most important asset that a content company has is its content, and to them Tivo, et-al are in the business of stealing this content. Don’t get me wrong I know that’s not exactly what is happening, but it’s certainly their perspective; remember we don’t watch the commercials they use to pay for this content.

With that being said what Tivo et-al do is a "grey area" since legally it’s not theft, but these content providers can make their lifes very dificult; so from a business standpoint what should Tivo, et-al do to mitigate the risk of these guys filing suite on other things? They need to implement controls that deflect risk from their principal solution, and reduce the risk of what is perceived to be the content provider’s hot button content sharing (video extraction).

The same types of concerns must come up when they enter into discussions to license their software and designs to other companies (Sony, etc.) as they don’t want to be sued by the content owners either.

It’s these business drivers that have forced Tivo into tightening their controls.

Before someone says that the protection the early S1's had were considered good enough, Tivo is not the same company it was back then; at that point they were rushing to get anything out, the risks associated with the techniques they used to protect their platform were adequate given their limited market saturation, now that Tivo is a Verb that’s no longer the case.

So in summary forums like DealDatabase and TivoCommunity are not why Tivo is mitigating risk its their success in the market that is requiring this.

Fr3d

FredThompson

12-29-2003, 05:08 PM

Before someone says that the protection the early S1's had were considered good enough, Tivo is not the same company it was back then; at that point they were rushing to get anything out, the risks associated with the techniques they used to protect their platform were adequate given their limited market saturation, now that Tivo is a Verb that’s no longer the case.eyup

How quickly memory of Murdock's supposed sponsorship of cracking cards fades...

David Bought

12-29-2003, 06:37 PM

David - From a business standpoint Tivo, Replay, MSFT need to mitigate their own risks, in this case from the content companies. Your premise seems to be based on the fact if no one "hacked" these devices the content providers would not perceive any risk of theft and as such the manufacturers of Tivo like devices would not have any legal risk from these providers.

Obviously you have not worked in infosec long because if you did, you would know that security is almost always a reactive process, not a proactive one. If there is no major breach, the status quo will generally be maintained. A very public, very obvious breach of the Tivo's DRM which is accessible to millions of shithead consumers through the download of an ISO will spur a more serious reaction because Tivo can't afford to ignore it.

fixn278

12-29-2003, 06:51 PM

Obviously you have not worked in infosec long because if you did, you would know that security is almost always a reactive process, not a proactive one. If there is no major breach, the status quo will generally be maintained. A very public, very obvious breach of the Tivo's DRM which is accessible to millions of shithead consumers through the download of an ISO will spur a more serious reaction because Tivo can't afford to ignore it.

Very true. It's a numbers game. If Tivo can show they have taken reasonable measures to secure the data, everyone is fat dumb and happy. Once it becomes public knowledge that boxes are easily hacked, then Tivo must go through a costly process and make another attempt to secure the data or be held responsible for the breaches. The last thing they want is to spend more money on security when their real goal is to focus on selling more services.

fr3d

12-29-2003, 08:27 PM

Obviously you have not worked in infosec long because if you did, you would know that security is almost always a reactive process, not a proactive one. If there is no major breach, the status quo will generally be maintained. A very public, very obvious breach of the Tivo's DRM which is accessible to millions of shithead consumers through the download of an ISO will spur a more serious reaction because Tivo can't afford to ignore it.

David - For one who is allways complaining about personal attacks you certanly jump in quickly with your own version.

Yes, your right security is unfortunatley approached in a reactionary way the question is what was the event being reacted to. In my experience (having worked on several PVR products as a security consultant) the event being reacted to is success, content providers dont care if a company selling a couple thousand units make a product that enable the features we all adore but when we start to get into double digit percentages they begin to act.

Just look at the lawsuit against replay, its business that drives security not technology.

Fr3d

David Bought

12-29-2003, 08:58 PM

Yes, your right security is unfortunatley approached in a reactionary way the question is what was the event being reacted to. In my experience (having worked on several PVR products as a security consultant) the event being reacted to is success, content providers dont care if a company selling a couple thousand units make a product that enable the features we all adore but when we start to get into double digit percentages they begin to act.

So far so good. Now let's take a look at the factors that help the so-called "hackers" to penetrate the double-digit range:

1) Crappy guides that oversimplify the process, use bright and shiny colors, and encourage lots of clueless newbies to something they don't understand. Thanks a lot captain and corbelli.

2) Tivo-software-in-a-box ISO images that enable clueless newbies to start off with much/all of the dirty work already done. Thanks a lot sleeper and surgeon.

3) Complacent attitudes toward service theft. Many users are referred here from illegal DSS sites in order to lay the groundwork for theft of service hacks on their Tivo. These users should be banned on sight.

Tivo's war on hacking sites is an attempt to curb the availability of some of the inputs to this process. Although we all suffer, I hope it raises the bar and keeps the least clueful people away from here.

borghe

12-29-2003, 09:00 PM

I'm new to this forum and hacking Tivo beyond storage upgrades in general, but certainly not to other sorts of hacks and mods on many many electronic devices...

David, I am sorry but your logic is flawed... There are three things you are missing... First, wherever development on a hack is difficult and dangerous, there will ALWAYS be someone who works to bring it to the masses... look at the PSX PS2, H and HU cards, heck, even going back to descrambler boxes and console copiers for the 16-bit systems. You may want to keep it in secret to in effect make things easier for you (though I want you to think about the irony of that statement), but eventually someone will ALWAYS make it easier or more affordable to do.

The second point that you miss is subscriber base. You cite the Sony XM radio hack.. fine... how many people subscribe to the XM service. Now what percentage of those subscribers own qualifying Sony decks. Now what cross section of those owners are going to do the hacks.. Now how many Tivos are out there.. what percentage.. etc... Tivo inherently has more to lose by people hacking there systems... if say 2% of Sony XM users will participate in the hack, how many users is that.. now if 2% of Tivo owners participate in these hacks, how many users.. Tivo and DirecTV at this point (and it is growing) have more to lose that Sony, so it isn't at all an apt comparison.. Instead look at PS2... 40 million units worldwide... current estimates are that less than 2% of all PS2s worldwide are modded... it is currently very difficult to do (12-26 wires on small solder joints in most cases) or otherwise very costly for installation (usually $80 service charge). Yet Sony has been going after mod chip developers and resellers since day one... not to mention tons of copy protection checks and online checking... for something that an extremely miniscule percentage or owners will participate in.

Lastly, SA Tivos are going away.. there is no denying it.. With cable companies aligning themselves heavily with the likes of Motorolla, Sceintific Atlanta, Pioneer, etc, and Echostar relying on their internal developments, the SA Tivo will have extremely limited and relatively neutered functionality compared to integrated units, heck, even compared to its own big brother in the DirecTv DVRs with Tivo. So what's the point in this? With DirecTV and Tivo aligning themselves tighly with each other, they have to look at the big picture.. Allowing hacks onto Tivos, no matter how clever or harmless they may be, opens the doors to one thing... Signal theft... more controversially it also potentially allows for perfect digital copies of copyrighted HD material. Now sure we get that wonderful copyright clause called fair use, but when fair use was created, I don't think they envisioned perfect digital quality audio and video freely distributed throughout the world on the Internet. Like it or not, being able to pull Star Wars Episode 2 off of HBO at 1920x1080 with DD5.1 audio and putting it up on bit torrent is just as scary to Twentieth Century Fox as signal theft is to DirecTV (ironically the same company now.. lol)

I will agree with you on this.. it is the pirates who ruin it for everyone else.. I don't know if you caught those feelings in this... Yes, it is the people who want to steal stuff either to save money or make money that ruin it for everyone... But taking that into consideration, your ranting is really kind of pointless and in the end just meanspirited bashing of people who don't deserve to be bashed... See the problem with pirates is that they don't want things to be all secretive, hush hush.... They want it to be wide open and in broad daylight.. why? to make money... the more people that it is available to, in the end the more money there is to be made... to that effect, the harder DirecTV, Tivo and the likes will try to shut them and consequently us down...

So I can see your anger, I just think you are directing it at the wrong people. Some guy comes in and wants to mod his Tivo with Tivoweb.. he isn't the reason Tivo is making things difficult..

oh, and BTW.. lest people here think it... technically video extraction isn't legal... true, it breaks no copyright laws, but it clearly does still violate DMCA... and the problem is that the entire reason that copy protection is there in the first place is to enforce copyright laws... and if Tivo left everything plain and wide open on the DirecTivos, they seriously run a huge risk of copyright laws being broken with perfect digital copies...

Like I said, I see your anger that things are getting harder, I just think you are taking it out on the wrong people. Instead of annoyed with the people who really are ruining it for the rest of us, you are just kind of coming off as an elitist snob who is annoyed that he doesn't have the prestige of being one of the few capable of participating in something anymore...

TiVoByte

12-29-2003, 09:10 PM

I’m so Disappointed that we have allowed ourselves to be hijacked by one person. This forum used to be a very nice, courteous, and helpful place to share information and learn about our Tivo’s.

I hacked my S1 some time ago, and at that point, things were rather static. I later returned to Deal Database when S2’s became hackable. At that time, I saw all of the mean spirited attacks by DB. I eventually found the ignore list and he is the only member on it. Works great with a few caveats. When not logged in, the forum software doesn’t know to suppress the tantrums. The second problem is when other quote him, they re-post the anger under their names, that’s not a big problem, it doesn’t happen that much. The Ignore tool is really a good thing.

My ADHD step son taught me all I need to know about someone with the social skills of DB. It’s the lesson that the WOPR learned at the end of War Games. It was something like “Strange game, the only way to win, is not to play the game”. Engaging someone like that only takes your time and energy, and interestingly enough, only feeds the monster.

I so wish others would use the ignore list, it would really make everyone’s life better. If DB posts in the forest (forum), no one NEED listen! Or at least if you do, please don’t expend time & energy responding. I’m not really responding directly to DB, only to the folks who gets manipulated by him! So I guess I was also manipulated in a 3rd person sort of way.

Nothing personal Dave, except your attacks on folks.

RS

FredThompson

12-29-2003, 09:13 PM

technically video extraction isn't legal... true, it breaks no copyright laws, but it clearly does still violate DMCA... and the problem is that the entire reason that copy protection is there in the first place is to enforce copyright laws...Wrong. There are 2 mutually exclusive aspects of the DMCA which apply to this situation. One is the anti-circumvention portion, the other is the right to make a backup copy. Of the two clauses, the right to make a backup copy, was established in law before the DMCA. To date, this contradiction has not been tested in court. 5 will get you 10 (or 50) that lawyers for studios and other large copyright holding entities don't want this tested and that's why they drop the cases when things start to move in that direction.

The DMCA did not nullify time-shifting. Lawyers for various studios have tried to claim time-shifting only applied to analog recordings and required advertisements to be included. The decision in the Betamax case mentions neither of these. AFAIK and IIRC, the geographic aspect of time-shifting in a different setting also hasn't been tested. For example, if you extrat a stored program, burn it to DVD, and watch it for the first time while on a transcontinental flight, what is the legal status of that activity? (I'm aware of the DirecTV service agreement, this is a point about the DMCA only.)

Additionally, the term "copyright holder" is typically used as a misnomer. There are millions of copyright holders in the U.S. The attempt is made to claim only large recording copyright holding entities have copyright protection. Not so.

Also, you DO know the word for which the "C" in DMCA is an abbreviation, don't you?

David Bought

12-29-2003, 09:43 PM

First, wherever development on a hack is difficult and dangerous, there will ALWAYS be someone who works to bring it to the masses... look at the PSX PS2, H and HU cards, heck, even going back to descrambler boxes and console copiers for the 16-bit systems. You may want to keep it in secret to in effect make things easier for you (though I want you to think about the irony of that statement), but eventually someone will ALWAYS make it easier or more affordable to do.

Yes. The term is "glory whore (http://www.generationtivo.com)" and they should be discouraged or ostracised by the community.

Knowledge should be shared amongst potential or capable developers. It should not be dumbed down, packaged up, and wrapped in a GUI so that somebody too stupid to use Google can use it. Secrecy is generally unimportant.

The second point that you miss is subscriber base. You cite the Sony XM radio hack.. fine... how many people subscribe to the XM service.

Wrong. The XM hack allows anybody with the Sony unit to steal service. Fortunately, it is difficult enough for the average consumer to do that they do not see it as a large problem.

Instead look at PS2... 40 million units worldwide... current estimates are that less than 2% of all PS2s worldwide are modded... it is currently very difficult to do (12-26 wires on small solder joints in most cases) or otherwise very costly for installation (usually $80 service charge). Yet Sony has been going after mod chip developers and resellers since day one... not to mention tons of copy protection checks and online checking... for something that an extremely miniscule percentage or owners will participate in.

2% of 40 million units is a really big number. A chipped unit closes off their entire revenue stream for that box. If you're comparing with Tivo, it's apples and oranges.

Allowing hacks onto Tivos, no matter how clever or harmless they may be, opens the doors to one thing... Signal theft...

That's a ridiculous assertion. The only reason signal theft is such a big problem with the Dtivos is because DTV has failed to secure the rest of their system, notably the one "trusted" element, the CAM.

See the problem with pirates is that they don't want things to be all secretive, hush hush.... They want it to be wide open and in broad daylight.. why? to make money... the more people that it is available to, in the end the more money there is to be made... to that effect, the harder DirecTV, Tivo and the likes will try to shut them and consequently us down...

We are not pirates and, besides corbelli@paypal, 9th tee, etc. there is not much of a profit motive here. Again, apples and oranges. However remember this: pirate freeware shifts the demand curve for dealer goods and causes piracy to skyrocket.

So I can see your anger, I just think you are directing it at the wrong people. Some guy comes in and wants to mod his Tivo with Tivoweb.. he isn't the reason Tivo is making things difficult..

Correct. The main problem is that video extraction has entered a mass-market phase and is being heavily promoted to shithead end users.

Instead of annoyed with the people who really are ruining it for the rest of us, you are just kind of coming off as an elitist snob who is annoyed that he doesn't have the prestige of being one of the few capable of participating in something anymore...

Wrong. I am among the few one-eyed men in this land of the blind. And I don't like it this way at all; in fact I would like for most of the blind people to be shot on sight.

Why don't you elaborate on your statement: if the shithead end-users are not the ones ruining our hobby, and your buddies corbelli and sleeper aren't either, who is to blame?

borghe

12-29-2003, 10:02 PM

We are granted rights of fair use that extend to articles added for the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, but the argument here is that the shows that exist on the Tivo are software that is a part of the Tivo, and while we have rights to timeshift the actual show contained within the software, the question remains if we have the right to circumvent the security protections contained within that software. In otherwords, you have a right to timeshift and record the TV show, but not necessarily to extract and manipulate the Tivo stream that contains that show, ESPECIALLY considering that there IS a security device in place (scrambling)...

Look at PS2 for example.. You would think that you have the right to backup a PS2 disc, mod your PS2, and play the backup on your PS2.. but the fact of the matter is you don't. And that is the leverage sony has had in shutting down mod chip manufacturers and resellers.

I realize I am arguing semantics, and no DirecTV or Tivo isn't going to start sueing people left and right, but I would not be surprised if at some point in the future due to pressure from Hollywood cease and desists started getting sent out to authors... Tivo has been very cool up until this point, but as soon as native DirecTV streams start appearing regularly on torrent sites I might expect that coolness to heat up a little.

AVD

12-29-2003, 10:19 PM

fixn278

12-29-2003, 11:52 PM

No matter how you want to try and interpret it, the DMCA clearly states that it supercedes any and all fair-use policies. Bottom line, if you circumvent the copy protection, you are in violation of the act. The owners/admins of this site have until now, allowed discussion since they most likely feel it is an unfair act. If at any point they decide not to discuss it, it is their right no matter how we interpret the act.

Take the time and read it in its entirety. It says over and over again that each regulation supercedes fair-use. While it may be unfair, if an organization with a big enough wallet took to the courts, they would probably win.

borghe

12-29-2003, 11:59 PM

avd - encryption exists on each xbox disc. the encryption is put there by microsfot at the time of pressing.. actually just a key that has to be present.. say Madden 2004 published by Electronic Arts... Microsoft owns no stake in the copyright on Madden. Electronic Arts has nothing to do with the key generated and encoded to the disc. Yet even though MS doesn't own the copyright they are completely within the rights of the law to sue for circumventing their copy protection in the form of that key and the required system to check for the key. They have shut down many mod chip manufacturers and each day go through the processes to shutdown the others that rise up from the ashes...

now it may sound from all of this like I am on the government's side.. in truth I am not.. the entire meaning of copyright has been twisted nowadays to pretty much protect people's rights to make insane amounts of money off of works, and the higher up on the ladder you are, the less you actually have to do with the creation yet a bigger piece of the pie you get.. Years ago stories and plays would get passed along from generation to generation.. now you better not dare try lest you get sued for copyright infringement or plagarism.. the system sucks

but that as it is, it is illegal to circumvent a copy protection security measure with the exception of certain scenarios.. and fair use in this case doesn't apply as there is indeed a way to apply fair use without circumventing the protection (export to VCR). Tivo has been very cool about it until now, and I imagine for a while longer will continue being cool.... But as soon as Epsiode 3 appears on the web in 1920x1080 19.2Mbps MPEG2 and DD5.1 audio with 75,000 people downloading it simultaneously, expect the MPAA to lay pressure on DirecTV and Tivo to start cracking down on things even harder..

and that in a roundabout way is my point to David.. even if Sleeper or such didn't release their tools to the public, those copies of Episode 3 would still make their way to the Net.. and it's because of instances like that (or giving your Tivo lifetime service) that companies crack down on things...

and specifically to David, obviously I won't change your mind on things, but seriously, you are coming off less and less as someone who is annoyed that Tivo is out to make things harder, and more and more that you are no longer part of this "cool" club that is hacking your Tivo... it really comes off as the same guys who cursed Windows and Macintosh for lifting computers out of the dark a dreary world of command lines, config.sys and rc.d's into the more accesible world of today just because more and more people were now able to do what once could only be done by a select few... if that is indeed the case all I have to say is get over yourself already...

Sleeper

12-30-2003, 12:55 AM

fr3d

12-30-2003, 12:58 AM

So far so good. Now let's take a look at the factors that help the so-called "hackers" to penetrate the double-digit range:

1) Crappy guides that oversimplify the process, use bright and shiny colors, and encourage lots of clueless newbies to something they don't understand. Thanks a lot captain and corbelli.

2) Tivo-software-in-a-box ISO images that enable clueless newbies to start off with much/all of the dirty work already done. Thanks a lot sleeper and surgeon.

3) Complacent attitudes toward service theft. Many users are referred here from illegal DSS sites in order to lay the groundwork for theft of service hacks on their Tivo. These users should be banned on sight.

Tivo's war on hacking sites is an attempt to curb the availability of some of the inputs to this process. Although we all suffer, I hope it raises the bar and keeps the least clueful people away from here.

Well here is my take on it; TIVO's business is not directly hurt by hacking until:
1. Service is being stolen, this is discouraged on every TIVO newbie thread I have ever seen and none of the tools you have mentioned do this.
2. Opportunity for service is being loss, in other words the subsidized boxes are being re-purposed and not being used for TIVO service and none of the tools or individuals you have mentioned have to my knowledge encouraged this.

Now indirectly there are a number of other factors,
1. Content provider’s fear of revenue loss (legitimate) given a new model of usage, this include the basic idea of time shifting as well as the other applications that get enabled through hacking.
2. Licensors of TIVOs technology fearing (rightly so) risk from content providers as a result of the content providers response to their fears.

Now the openness of TIVO hacking certainly has an effect on the content providers fear of revenue loss as it adds new vectors to the problem; the key point is that even without hacking the fear exists regardless due to the core time-shifting capability. In other words even without hacking the content providers know that the data is persisted to a hard disk, and it’s that that introduces the content protection requirements.

Additionally before TIVO can add new capabilities to their platform with an acceptable level of risk they need to show good faith efforts to protect the content provider; that is the root of why the protection schemes have been added.

Now I certainly would agree that the fact that a culture has built up around hacking the TIVO has expedited the implementation of basic rights management in their platform, but I firmly believe that the end would be the same without it. Just look the development of HDTV, DVI, and other standards dealing with these same content providers.

Additional we can’t forget that TIVOs principal investors are content providers themselves (NBC, Showtime).TIVO must do something to service and somehow protect the content providers. How would it look for them to support a company that didn’t invest in protecting their content while they go after companies (Replay, etc.) for not doing it?

What is happening is an artifact of growth and success in a very difficult consumer space, if I remember correctly just 4 years ago there were under 50k TIVOs in the world and now there are nearly a million; not as fast of growth as they had originally hoped in boom time but still nothing to shake a stick at; hey its quite a feet when you become a term used in every day communication.

I also don’t dilute myself like some TIVO hackers in thinking the hacker community is whats makes TIVO successful, but even though I don’t use the tools in question, I can say I am very glad they and these forums exist.

Fr3d

BubbleLamp

12-30-2003, 01:05 AM

Actually, I am glad that you finally got this off your chest. You have been insinuating your distaste without directly expressing it for quite some time. You should have expressed your feeling earlier.

That is just YOUR diluted opinion. I respect the developer community. Who do you think they are develpoing their hacks for. Oh, just themselves. And if they didn't want them in the public then why didn't they license them? How senseless of me.

And by the way, what gives you the right to speak for "the rest of us"?

Just ignore the troll with the mop Sleeper. ;)

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 01:43 AM

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 01:45 AM

What copyright does TiVo/Direct TV OWN to digital programs that are distributed on their service? "Its a Wonderful Life" is not protected by copyright, what law would I be breaking if I extracted it from a Sat TiVo and started selling copies on the street corner?

(Yes, I know that the Library of Congress has said that it is illegal to circumvent digital protection of uncopyrighted works. I'm just arguing the logic of it.)

I don't think TiVo/DTV can sue anyone, they can just deny to provide service.The counter-argument would be the digital encoding is copyrighted. Similarly, you can copyright a collection without owning the rights to the objects inside that collection.

It's irrelevant what the Library of Congress says, they neither make laws nor decide the legitimacy of laws. The LOC was asked to make a statement concerning the contradiction I mentioned earlier in this thread. IIRC, they also made a statement about the legitimacy of non-native backup of data from legacy computer systems. Still, LOC's statements are not law nor can they be considered legal interpretation.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 01:51 AM

fixn278

12-30-2003, 02:14 AM

It superceeds previous law, yes, and it contradicts itself. It cannot both prohibit and allow for backups of copyrighted material.

It in no way contradicts itself. It says it allows fair-use except where fair-use violates any of the regulations of the act.

Here is a direct quote...

... since the fair use doctrine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work, the act of circumventing a technological measure in order to gain access is prohibited.

I see no contradiction.

Edit: Just to clarify, it does not prevent copying of copyrighted material, but prevents copying of protected material. They are two completely different things. Fair use is irrelevant.

David Bought

12-30-2003, 02:40 AM

you are coming off less and less as someone who is annoyed that Tivo is out to make things harder, and more and more that you are no longer part of this "cool" club that is hacking your Tivo

Wrong. I lament the lack of experts and the surplus of dead weight here. It's not Tivo's fault that this place has drawn the wrong crowd so I can't blame them for trying to bring things under control.

What would you do if you were on the high school football team, and they started letting handicapped kids play? The best players will leave and the team will go to shit. The good players will go somewhere else, as most of us have. Welcome to Dealdatabase.

That is just YOUR diluted opinion. I respect the developer community. Who do you think they are develpoing their hacks for. Oh, just themselves.

This is increasingly the case. There are several developers here who are not releasing the majority of their work because of support and legal risks. These risks would be nil if people like yourself did not release software whose sole purpose is to help unqualified people hack their Tivos.

Now I certainly would agree that the fact that a culture has built up around hacking the TIVO has expedited the implementation of basic rights management in their platform, but I firmly believe that the end would be the same without it. Just look the development of HDTV, DVI, and other standards dealing with these same content providers.

Agreed, the DRM would have been incorporated into the Tivo in any case. The difference is that Tivo's DRM implementations continue to get stronger as the embarrassing cracks are publicized and widely disseminated. We are shaming them into fixing their mistakes by making the extraction/hacking/service theft process laughably easy.

The day when a Tivo executive can google the web and download a one-step tool that cracks the box wide open, is the day when Tivo gets serious about security and spends more money to lock their system down.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 03:41 AM

It in no way contradicts itself. It says it allows fair-use except where fair-use violates any of the regulations of the act.

Here is a direct quote...

... since the fair use doctrine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work, the act of circumventing a technological measure in order to gain access is prohibited.

I see no contradiction.

Edit: Just to clarify, it does not prevent copying of copyrighted material, but prevents copying of protected material. They are two completely different things. Fair use is irrelevant.Backup copies are specifically allowed by the DMCA. Period. Your direct quote has the phrase "unauthorized access." Backups ARE authorized.

That's my point. There is a mutual exclusion aspect of the DMCA. Until this is specifically tested in court, there is no precedent other than to revert to previous historical law. When a witness gives sworn testimony and commits purgery, all their testimony is to be considered invalid. Likewise, contradictory clauses of a law are to be considered invalid. In that case, the conditions in which that law are found invalid revert to previous law. This is why I said lawyers who represent large copyright holding entities don't want this portion of the DMCA tested.

Your edit is incorrect, the DMCA prevents UNAUTHORIZED circumvention in order to copy. It does not, in any way, shape, or form, claim that any and all forms of copy protection remove or invalidate the consumer's right to make a backup nor does it make dictates about the form said backups must take.

Fair use also includes the educational, editorial, and legal use aspects, not just personal backups.

fixn278

12-30-2003, 10:56 AM

Backup copies are specifically allowed by the DMCA. Period. Your direct quote has the phrase "unauthorized access." Backups ARE authorized.

That's my point. There is a mutual exclusion aspect of the DMCA. Until this is specifically tested in court, there is no precedent other than to revert to previous historical law. When a witness gives sworn testimony and commits purgery, all their testimony is to be considered invalid. Likewise, contradictory clauses of a law are to be considered invalid. In that case, the conditions in which that law are found invalid revert to previous law. This is why I said lawyers who represent large copyright holding entities don't want this portion of the DMCA tested.

Your edit is incorrect, the DMCA prevents UNAUTHORIZED circumvention in order to copy. It does not, in any way, shape, or form, claim that any and all forms of copy protection remove or invalidate the consumer's right to make a backup nor does it make dictates about the form said backups must take.

Fair use also includes the educational, editorial, and legal use aspects, not just personal backups.

Maybe you should read it again...

ANY circumvention of copy protection is unauthorized regardless of whether or not the actual data is intended to be part of a fair-use backup. As far as conflicting regulations, you can guess that it wouldn't hold up in court, but I would hate to be at your end of the lawsuit.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 11:24 AM

Maybe you should read it again...

ANY circumvention of copy protection is unauthorized regardless of whether or not the actual data is intended to be part of a fair-use backup. As far as conflicting regulations, you can guess that it wouldn't hold up in court, but I would hate to be at your end of the lawsuit.WE'll have to agree to disagree. Half full/half emtpy.

newbie

12-30-2003, 12:18 PM

.

The day when a Tivo executive can google the web and download a one-step tool that cracks the box wide open, is the day when Tivo gets serious about security and spends more money to lock their system down.

You mean like the original Extreme script? Didn't even have to use an original image. Sleeper is just the latest all in one help.

I still think the constant attempts to direct people to DD from TCF was a bigger concern. Tivo directly links to TCF and pays for it. Don't really have to look very far when a link from tivo.com gets you to a site that tells you how to hack.

I also think Tivo's increasing dependence on Directv is responsible for increased attempts to "lock" the units. Tivo really doesn't need to give Directv reasons to dump them in favor of the NBS box.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 12:44 PM

O'Reilly doesn't seem concerned...Tivo Hacks book...

malfunct

12-30-2003, 12:48 PM

This is increasingly the case. There are several developers here who are not releasing the majority of their work because of support and legal risks. These risks would be nil if people like yourself did not release software whose sole purpose is to help unqualified people hack their Tivos.

I don't think that having unqualified people hack thier tivo's is as much of a problem as people just plain doing the wrong thing. If people didn't try so hard to steal direcTV and do so much distribution of shows online tivo wouldn't feel the need to stop people from modifying thier software.

Agreed, the DRM would have been incorporated into the Tivo in any case.

I agree, DRM is coming to everything and the way we will fight it is not to buy devices that have strong DRM included. The reason for so much DRM comes back to one thing, greed, both on the part of consumers and on the part of corporations. If people would speak with thier pocketbooks and not spend money on stuff they don't like (instead of stealing it) it would send a double message that the stuff is not as good as it should be and that it is over priced.

In the end I don't fault Tivo for strengthening thier security, its a business thing. I also don't fault people who make hacking easier because I think there should be nothing bad about hacking and it should be available to any who want it. I totally blame the greedy people who want to take what isn't rightfully thiers (both consumers and corporations). Its those people that make this world harder for everyone to live in.

David Bought

12-30-2003, 01:37 PM

You mean like the original Extreme script? Didn't even have to use an original image. Sleeper is just the latest all in one help.

Most of the Extreme people learned from their mistakes and know now why encouraging mass hacking screws us.

And it's "handout", not "help".

I don't think that having unqualified people hack thier tivo's is as much of a problem as people just plain doing the wrong thing. If people didn't try so hard to steal direcTV and do so much distribution of shows online tivo wouldn't feel the need to stop people from modifying thier software.

Well, they've got a hell of a lot less work to do now, thanks to sleeper and corbelli. In the old days they actually had to learn a little bit to steal service on a Tivo.

In the end I don't fault Tivo for strengthening thier security, its a business thing. I also don't fault people who make hacking easier because I think there should be nothing bad about hacking and it should be available to any who want it.

Many hacks available here run directly contrary to Tivo's interests. When the hacks are made easy to use, an arms race is inevitable, and everybody loses.

Actions have consequences. Learn to deal with them like a grown-up. The only way to make both sides happy is to reduce the market penetration of the hacks, period. It will happen one way or another - hopefully the HD box will illustrate this to the nonbelievers.

Hi8

12-30-2003, 02:32 PM

Absolutely - that is the best possible outcome. Tivo hacking is not for everyone: if you do not have the technical skills to contribute something back you should not be leeching off the community.

I'm new here... what exactly have you contributed again? (besides toilet plunging!)

BubbleLamp

12-30-2003, 05:14 PM

Actions have consequences. Learn to deal with them like a grown-up. The only way to make both sides happy is to reduce the market penetration of the hacks, period. It will happen one way or another - hopefully the HD box will illustrate this to the nonbelievers.

This board is a victim of its own success. When TCF got too hard on the hackers, Vadim created this one. (He also created one of the first CD with tools, do you blame him too?) Tivo was still struggling to get customers, so a lot was allowed to happen in the hacking world, it helped spread the word for a company that didn't advertise. Surgeon made things easy for lots, but not enough to make waves. Then came the era when people here were publically posting the search strings or seek addresses to modify boot299. That brought out the DSS crowd, so it quickly went underground. The same is happening now with extraction/decryption. Someone came up with noscramble, and not too long afterwards, extraction and DVD creation were born. Places like LookMa came along, bad idea. Olaf went on LeoTV, bad idea. 2-3 Tivo hacking books came along, bad idea. All of this has lead to the current state of affairs. I don't see you slamming Kraven, or Riley for sharing their work, but they've done a lot to put this place on the radar of Tivo and DTV as well. Now we all know that Tivo's future is tied to DTV, because the cable guys want to do their own thing. So if you piss off DTV, then you better be prepared to deal with them. Tivo's had close to 3 years of this board's and TCF's hackers to thank for helping them lock things down.

So DB, the Genie is out of the bottle, and you aren't going to get him to go back in. Digital extraction is/was the final straw here, not easy to use tools. The timeline might have been shortened slightly, but the result would still be the same. It's exactly like Napster. 50K people using it, who cared. Millions using it, Gnutella, BearShare, Kazaa, Morpheous, etc, and the music studios woke up. Well, DTV woke up.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 05:27 PM

David Bought

12-30-2003, 06:20 PM

Digital extraction is/was the final straw here, not easy to use tools.

It's exactly like Napster. 50K people using it, who cared. Millions using it, Gnutella, BearShare, Kazaa, Morpheous, etc, and the music studios woke up. Well, DTV woke up.

What you're forgetting to do here is connect the dots. Most people are way too lazy and stupid to figure out how to get files from #warez on IRC, much less hack a Tivo without spoonfeeding. Having easy-to-use tools makes the difference between having a few dozen Tivo hackers, and a few thousand. The P2P applications you mentioned have point-and-steal interfaces that anybody can understand, and that is exactly why they have millions of users. Obscurity and difficulty of use are the only things that can keep these things alive. Right now we have neither, and things are turning rotten very quickly as a result.

Also, we have the additional problem that several leeches here, lacking any respect whatsoever for ethical considerations, download the user-friendly tools and sell the hacked units on eBay, usually promoting them for use with service theft devices. They tarnish our reputation and draw us negative attention that we really don't need. Most or all of this activity would be eliminated if the units were more difficult for an uneducated end-user to hack.

The demise of analog recording and onset of pure digital is what's driving enhanced security, not something which happens here or on any other hacker board.

Right and wrong. Repeat after me: security is a reactive process. If the initial implementation doesn't get widely exploited, a company will not waste money hardening the product any more than they have to.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 06:32 PM

Right and wrong. Repeat after me: security is a reactive process. If the initial implementation doesn't get widely exploited, a company will not waste money hardening the product any more than they have to.I meant the market for consumer recording in general, not TiVo-specific. That should have been obvious from the rest of the post. Maybe it wasn't. CSS cracking has probably had a far more influential impact on content providers than TiVo hacking. For that matter, DSS hacking, too.

Security is both proactive and reactive, it just depends on the environment. Reactive security for nuclear weapons would be, uh, pretty bad.

You're right, though, initial TiVo was pretty slack. Both hacks and hardening would get better over time due to competition and technology advancement.

BubbleLamp

12-30-2003, 07:51 PM

Highly doubtful.

The demise of analog recording and onset of pure digital is what's driving enhanced security, not something which happens here or on any other hacker board.

300 million residents in the U.S. and the stores flooding with digital recorders and medium. TiVo hacks have changed everything? Riiiiight.

Nobody said it changed everything on the planet, only that it had a direct impact on the Tivo and its hackability. I still think 5 will get you 20 that if digital extraction wasn't working, DTV wouldn't be pressuring anyone yet.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 10:41 PM

Maybe. We'll probably never know. If the stories about Murdock funding the Hu cracks are true, it's no wonder everything is getting tight now that he has been approved to own DirecTV.

chazbell

12-30-2003, 10:59 PM

Wow - I started reading this thread looking for info on the new HD Tivo. Then David butts in.... Again. What is your basic malfunction ??? You single handedly turned a tread for discussion of a potentially cool new piece of hardware in to a flame war of which you are the primary target. I for one am quite tired of seeing your smart-ass condescending responses to damn near every post on this board. I suppose you would have some right if you had done anything positive to support the hobby. Name me one thing you have done, any software, any help, and good ideas, anything ???? Your only capability seems to be flaming anybody who asks a simple question. Face it, not everybody can be experts in everything. Seems to me that the purpose of places like this was to help those that did not understand and by working as a group everybody’s small steps could be combined to produce really outstanding work. Yes there are the masters of the hobby, and I bet you most of them are proud to share with others the work that they have done themselves or compiled from others. I would also guess that most of the masters also took their first learning steps with the help of others. The point here David is that this board should be about idea sharing, not being a total pain in the ass simply because you can.

And as for some of your comments; WOW….

Signal theft only occurs because of economics. If DTV would price their services at a reasonable rate nobody would care to steal. I would also bet that they as a company would gross more by charging fair rates, stopping the legal onslaughts (why sue when nobody is inclined to steal??? ) and having most if not all viewers as happy subscribers. I must also point out that this is why nobody really worries about hacking XM. Has nothing to do with technical ability, it is because at ten bucks a month, their customers are happy people who feel they are getting a great deal. I gladly subscribe because I enjoy the service and the ten bucks seems like money well spent. No way I can say that about DTV. Perhaps at 30 bucks maybe, but for what I pay; DAMN.

And Tivo hacking…. Why in the hell would TIVO themselves host a board that discusses the “Legal” aspects of hacking if it did not somehow help them as a company. Tivo should thank the “hacking” community; because without them their product would have had a lot tougher time surviving the marketplace. I in no way promote signal theft, but I see nothing wrong with making a good product great. No laws are broken by putting in bigger drives, using apps for remote control, networking, etc. The only “technical” law that gets broken is in the use of the no scramble fix. The only problem from that fix comes when enterprising individuals give away copies of copyrighted material or sell those copies. It my understanding that archiving for personal uses has never been and can never be against the law. When you pass those copies out, or sell them, then the problem occurs. I understand the part about disabling a copy protection device, but still; when those copies are used for your own personal use I see no problem.

So for my parting shot, PLEASE, if you want this site to continue to be useful, stop the bullshit that you seem to be shoveling and return to your janitors closet. Return when you have something useful to say. Didn’t your mother teach you that ????

And to everybody else I apologize for the super long post. I was just going to throw in my .02 but seems I just wrote a novel. :rolleyes:

BubbleLamp

12-30-2003, 11:25 PM

So for my parting shot, PLEASE, if you want this site to continue to be useful, stop the bullshit that you seem to be shoveling and return to your janitors closet. Return when you have something useful to say.

That's his desire, to drive people away, not to help them, in the misguided hopes that the heat will lessen on the Tivo hacking community. He's a day late and a dollar short.

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 11:33 PM

and a screw loose.

JJBliss

12-30-2003, 11:38 PM

and a screw loose.

do you really think this is constructive? Did you add much to the thread with this pithy insight? Hello pot, meet the kettle.

This thread is going to hell. If it doesn't turn around VERY quickly it will be closed, and that's a shame since there's ACTUALLY some good conversations going on on both sides.

Let's keep it together folks...

FredThompson

12-30-2003, 11:51 PM

Yeah, it's a humorous comment. Something that's been sorely lacking lately. Pretty thin-skinned comment you made. DB can't banter on his own behalf? Puhlease.

David Bought

12-31-2003, 02:11 AM

Signal theft only occurs because of economics. If DTV would price their services at a reasonable rate nobody would care to steal.

I have chosen to ignore your obvious flamebait in an effort to keep this thread from degenerating, but I would like to address this point:

How would you propose that DTV should change their pricing plan to compete with "free"?

Now, explain how they can afford to pay their content providers, satellite operators, employees, and shareholders after they have changed to "reasonable" rates?

How long do you think retailers would stay in business if shoplifters had a 99.9% chance of getting away with their crime?

FredThompson

12-31-2003, 02:28 AM

He lives!

Eyup, good point. Far better than cable for the same price or less. Well, ok, maybe there's some kind of super digital cable in NYC, Chicago, LA or D.C. but probably not at the price of DirecTV. The PPV sports can't be beat, either. Service theft is stupid, be it DirecTV or TiVo fees. If you want free, get an aerial and watch your local network affiliates.

Service theft occurs because of greed or illicit thrill.

Um...ok...SA TiVo users in Canada and Australia do some heavy adapting to get program data. That's a totally different beast.

Wish we had a way to override TiVos data for local PBS programming. It can be quite fluid at times.

chazbell

12-31-2003, 03:17 AM

David - You don't get it. There is a huge difference between what is “reasonable” to charge for a service and what is the maximum that a market can stand before they choose to drop the service. So understand the point I make. And understand why I use the example of why nobody is hacking XM radio. They charge a reasonable fee for an outstanding service. You cannot say that about DTV. I’ll give you another example. I own and operate a large ISP. I introduced a high speed service I called “The Modem Killer” for $25.00 per month. I am kicking the shit out of the competition and my profit margins have increased. This is my point and it should be well taken as it is working all day long for me and XM’s base continues to enjoy rapid growth.

Also, Never did I say DTV should be free, and PLEASE don’t loose sleep over DTV’s profit margin should they adopt a “reasonable” fee schedule. I still bet the net would increase substantially. Yes, you will make less per customer, but more customers means more profit. Why do you think we have so many costco’s and sam’s and super walmart’s and etc,etc,etc. They operate on slim margins but somehow make a friggin killin. What, some kind of black magic ???

And don’t pretend you are taking the high ground on this issue with your “I have chosen to ignore your obvious flamebait in an effort to keep this thread from degenerating” statement. This thread was about HD Tivo’s if you’ll recall.

chazbell

12-31-2003, 03:30 AM

fr3d

12-31-2003, 04:25 AM

Agreed, the DRM would have been incorporated into the Tivo in any case. The difference is that Tivo's DRM implementations continue to get stronger as the embarrassing cracks are publicized and widely disseminated. We are shaming them into fixing their mistakes by making the extraction/hacking/service theft process laughably easy.

The day when a Tivo executive can google the web and download a one-step tool that cracks the box wide open, is the day when Tivo gets serious about security and spends more money to lock their system down.

Thats certanly one potential answer but DRM as a whole is getting allot of publicity right now, particularly due to the DCMA, Paladium, TPCA, HDTV, MP3, etc.

With that being said an entire market (its fairly healthy too thanks to the content providers) is being built around DRM, and even if the hacks did not exist and TIVOs idea of content protection was XOR and every one else was say cryptographic license based (market/standards driven) the content providers would be up in arms claiming complaceny on TiVos part which would expose them to additional risk when, and I do mean when their solution comes into question in a court of law.

fr3d

12-31-2003, 04:31 AM

Signal theft only occurs because of economics. If DTV would price their services at a reasonable rate nobody would care to steal. customers are happy people who feel they are getting a great deal.

This is just bad logic, but in part your right, by that I mean if it 1.99 a month, availible in all would care to expend the effort to hack it? But thats not the case, due to geo-politics its not likley that it will be availible everywhere, this will spur hacking of the service. Additionally this is, or atleast I am in the USA and as far as I am concerned they can charge whatever they want for the service.

I firmly beleive that "Locks keep honest people honest", I consider myself (fundamentally honest) and do not steal service, I am more than capable of doing so as-well.

fr3d

12-31-2003, 04:35 AM

By the way, just looked up the annual report and the Directv business unit owned solely by Hughes "Increased revenue 16% to $6.4 Billion and EBITDA more than tripled to $564 million in 2002". Um, seems to me that they are making plenty of money.....

chazbell you are justifying service theft, thats offensivem its like saying its OK to steal from wallmart because they are a evil company with bad management. The idea of supply and demand works, if honest people were not willing to pay the DTV/TIVO fees as they are they would be lowered; look at where price fixing got California; the market heals it self with things like this.

David Bought

12-31-2003, 10:57 AM

David - You don't get it. There is a huge difference between what is “reasonable” to charge for a service and what is the maximum that a market can stand before they choose to drop the service.

BWAHAHAHA... so let me get this straight, you think you know more about the economics of the satellite business than the execs at the nation's largest provider? Bullshit.

And understand why I use the example of why nobody is hacking XM radio. They charge a reasonable fee for an outstanding service.

Bullshit. A lot of people are pissed that mirroring their sub doubles their bill, and would clone their first unit for free if they could. There are plenty of wannabe thieves out there but fortunately few if any of them have been successful, because they are clueless.

I own and operate a large ISP. I introduced a high speed service I called “The Modem Killer” for $25.00 per month.

Bullshit. Google shows nothing for "the modem killer". You own and operate nothing. You have no understanding whatsoever of the per-sub and fixed costs in the DBS business, or any other business for that matter. You are a f***ing liar. Quit making shit up to try to prove your (wrong and stupid) points.

borghe

12-31-2003, 11:23 AM

chaz - you are way off base.. as has already been said, shot of virtually giving the service away, signal theft would never be killed on its own. what would you lower it to? How about Platinum plus locals for $30/month. That includes all PPV for free and all porn for free.. heck, all local markets for free also.. you know what? People will still steal service... In my area TWC doesn't filter cable from Internet subs. you basically get a $19 cable package for free.. Not once have I found a single person out of dozens of people who are opposed to just splitting their modem line and grabbing free cable, cancelling their subscription... Sure they are losing channels, but they are also saving money...

To think that there is some magic price point that DirecTV could lower their service to in order to stop piracy is insanity. To imagine even for a second that such a price point existed where DirecTV could make any money whatsoever is just as insane. Heck, according to the press release on the merger DirecTV pays $3 per Tivo sub. So that right there means they have to charge at least $3/month for the Tivo service just to break even.. And what about that extra $2 they are scamming us on? Probably to recover on the subsidy they are giving us for those $99 Tivos in the store.

I can't believe you are promoting signal theft, and I Can't believe that you are actually blaming it on DirecTV. I guess the only response I have is wondering what you think the magical price would be that would completely halt signal theft?

bdonalds

12-31-2003, 11:30 AM

I always have problems understanding how people can justify theft of "non-tangible" goods. The same person will download gigabytes of copyrighted MP3s, but not only fails to understand how that's different than walking into a store and stuffing stuff into your coat, but also tries to justify the theft based on the cost, or the success of the company that providing the product.

Justin Timberlake's new CD too expensive? So that's how you justify hopping on Kazaa and downloading it for free? Put yourself in Justin's shoes. What if whatever service you provide could be infinitely replicated, and dispersed to the masses for free? Is that okay, because maybe your salary is unfairly high? Or because you have made a lot of money last year, and someone thinks you have too much money anyway? How would you feel about that?

It's ridiculous. Why punish a business/artist/crappy boy band guy for succeeding? You steal form Wal-Mart because they make too much money? You steal from Metallica because they make to much money? Folks, if you justify it that way, you are reading right out of Das Kapital.

Just because something is easy to steal, doesn't make it any less of a crime. No one seems to understand that. I guess the ease and anonymity of this type of "non-tangible theft" really illustrates what type of mentality human beings all tend towards...not that it comes as a shock or anything.

I am ranting out of control now... I'll just wrap it up by saying that I wish people had more pride than that. Take pride in earning money to purchase the goods you desire. You can't afford what you want? Work towards increasing your income, and take pride in the fact that your hard work has proivided what you wanted. You can do that in this great country.

Bryan

Okay, I admit it, I am an Ayn Rand fan! :D

chazbell

12-31-2003, 11:39 AM

Well David, once again your ignorance supercedes itself. Everything I have said is true, just because Google doesn’t show it doesn’t mean it does not exist. By the way, the infrastructures I build are all fiber optic too. But before you go off half cocked again, look up OSI on the web. That is my equipment vendor for fiber to the home. As you will see, with it I can create a completely optical infrastructure for delivery of Voice, Video, and Data. So to you I say horseshit, I know a ton about the per-sub and fixed cost of running my business. I do it all day long. In fact, the number 5 (base on subscriber lines) telco is presently leasing my infrastructure for dial tone in one of my projects. I run the ISP part, and for video my customers have the option of DBS rebroadcast (yes, through my fiber network, no dish on your house, and my antenna never drops for weather conditions) or they can hook to the local video provider.

So whether you chose to believe it or not, I am in a business that while admittedly is WAY smaller than DTV’s, the economics are very similar.

Also, there are those that will hack anything for the sake of hacking it. And yes, I suppose there are those that are pissed about having to pay more for secondary XM radios, but it’s not double. It’s $6.99. Plus, you can get further price breaks for longer subscription periods.

Borghe – How do you and guys like you get these ideas from my posts…… NEVER have I said that I promoted or participated in signal theft. My point is that there are ways to combat signal theft without the Nazi like legal procedures and what I believe are prices that push what the market can stand. I was trying to use XM as an example, but apparently nobody is getting that. And just because DTV must pay tivo $3.00 for their service does not mean that is the average price margin of all services. Roughly speaking with about 11.2 million customers DTV NETS about $50 bucks per subscriber. My point is that perhaps, if they lowered their net profit per customer that perhaps those that presently steal the service might be inclined to go ahead and subscribe. I never said this idea would stop signal theft, but I do believe that it could lower it. Right or wrong, that is just my opinion. And like *******s, everybody has one……

David Bought

12-31-2003, 12:15 PM

Roughly speaking with about 11.2 million customers DTV NETS about $50 bucks per subscriber. My point is that perhaps, if they lowered their net profit per customer that perhaps those that presently steal the service might be inclined to go ahead and subscribe.

Are you really this stupid? That comes out to $4.16 a month. Pirates will still steal the $100, err $95.84 packages if DTV does not close their holes.

If you even knew what EBITDA was, you would understand that it has nothing to do with cash flow as it intentionally fails to account for some very important expenses, especially in an industry like DBS with astronomical startup costs.

Sal Gurnee

12-31-2003, 01:12 PM

Just because something is easy to steal, doesn't make it any less of a crime. No one seems to understand that. I guess the ease and anonymity of this type of "non-tangible theft" really illustrates what type of mentality human beings all tend towards...not that it comes as a shock or anything.

Wal-Mart does not use my backyard as their product warehouse. Directv does. If I found a big mysterious locked box in my backyard, why wouldn't I try and open it? So I go to the hardware store, by some equipment to HACK open the box and check out what is inside. Afterall, its sitting in my backyard.
So Directv beams signals to my backyard. Did I ask for them? No. So I go to the store and BUY (not steal) the equipment necessary to use the signals that are being beamed without my permission to my backyard.

Suppose then that other people come over and see what I'm doing. They say, 'Wow Sal, you did that all on your own? Can I do that?.' I say, 'Sure, but you need to know what you are doing and it takes money and a lot of time. If you aren't really good at it, your TV won't work for weeks at a time!'. They say, 'well maybe I'll give it a try!'. So they go to the store and buy a bunch of directv equipment. 2 weeks later they realize they have no idea what they are doing. They had the free stuff for a couple of weeks, so they realize how much DTV is better than cable. BOOM, magically, DirecTV has another platinum subscriber with no gimmics, promotions or advertisments.
(Repeat this paragraph 10 times over the span of 3 years)
I GUARNTEE none of these people would have even contemplated the notion of switching to DirecTV without seeing it in its full glory.

So, what is the net result? Directv has 10 more subscriptions. At an average of at least $60 a sub, Directv is generating $600 a month because one person decided to see what was falling in his backyard. How much does Directv spend on ECMs and cardswaps every year? Lets guess 10% of revenue which is a rediculously high number. I have no problem with Directv taking $60 of that $600 to try and stop people from finding out what is happening in their backyard.

BOTTOM LINE: Most people on this site agree that the hobby of modding Tivos has generated interest and sales for Tivo. The exact same thing is true for the hobby of DirecTV hacking. You can say one is stealing and the other isn't, but the fact is, Directv BENEFITS from hackers. Directv just stays far enough ahead to make it easier to subscribe then to hack for the average Joe (and by the way, the average Joe doesn't even know what an internet forum is).

David Bought

12-31-2003, 01:38 PM

Wal-Mart does not use my backyard as their product warehouse. Directv does. If I found a big mysterious locked box in my backyard, why wouldn't I try and open it?

Congress and the courts have repeatedly stated that you have no property rights whatsoever in wireless signals that cross your property, just as you have no property rights in planes that fly overhead in your airspace. You can and will go to prison for intercepting and decoding transmissions which you do not have the right to look at.

bdonalds

12-31-2003, 02:28 PM

Wow...this thread took a wacky tangent from how it started, but this is a great discussion. I am very interested in what people have to say about this topic.

Sal-

You quoted my post, but I'm not sure how your point is related to mine. You are basically describing the shareware model, which can be a great thing, in my opinion, but doesn't really apply here.

And really, what percentage of people who hack hardware to steal signal are doing so with the intent to demo, and then decide to buy, or cease using the signal?

Bryan

FredThompson

12-31-2003, 02:49 PM

You can and will go to prison for intercepting and decoding transmissions which you do not have the right to look at.Can, not necessarily will. Illegality and pursuit of legal recourse are two different things. Technically, it's illegal for me to make 2 copies of the audio CDs I buy; one for the car and one for the stereo. Odds are that will never be prosecuted.

Yeah, the thread title really should be changed or this split into 2 threads. It's got nothing to do with HD TiVos, does it?

FredThompson

12-31-2003, 02:57 PM

I always have problems understanding how people can justify theft of "non-tangible" goods.
Historically, the idea of IP is very, very new. Anyone in a service industry knows this all too well. The value of a service is always greater before it is performed. Think about the plight of the typical sharecropper...

wrt service "theft", isn't it technically copyright infringement, not theft? There is a difference legally and, yes, I'm fully aware of how the definition is intentionally being blurred. (You know what I mean, Jack Valenti and company claiming ludicrous statistics from pure air...) Theft, by definition, would require possession to the exclusion of the rightful entity. Infringement doesn't include that. Hence, they are very different. There can be an aspect of "harm" in both but not necessarily denial or removal of possession.

DB's analogy about transmission vs. airplanes isn't perfect but does illustrate this point as well. Historically, if it was in the "ether", it was considered free access and encryption as a means of protection was the only recourse. That's changed in the U.S. and Canada. (FWIW, interception of an aerial transmission doesn't degrade the transmission in any way, taking possession of an airplane would, that's where the analogy breaks down. It's also a ludicrous point because DB wasn't trying to illustrate that.)

Sal Gurnee

12-31-2003, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sal Gurnee
Wal-Mart does not use my backyard as their product warehouse. Directv does. If I found a big mysterious locked box in my backyard, why wouldn't I try and open it?
Congress and the courts have repeatedly stated that you have no property rights whatsoever in wireless signals that cross your property, just as you have no property rights in planes that fly overhead in your airspace. You can and will go to prison for intercepting and decoding transmissions which you do not have the right to look at.

Yeah, all of the prisons in this country are simply overflowing with Directv hackers.

I am not attempting to prove the legality of hacking Directv I am simply asking a question. If there was a big locked box in your backyard, would you try and open it. You obviously would say NO, I 'can and will go to prison' if I open it.

Others would say, NO, I think it is stealing and stealing is wrong.

Others would say, Yes, I'll open it because its sitting in my own backyard. If I open it, I may get some use out of it. If I don't open it, it just sits there collecting dust. If you compare that to walking into Wal-Mart and stealing a CD, you are taking a CD that somebody else could have purchased. Wal-Mart directly loses money for that CD. Nobody is losing money if the locked box just sits there untouched, and nobody is losing money if it is opened. In fact, its just the opposite ... DirecTV makes money from failed hackers who give up and subscribe.

FredThompson

12-31-2003, 03:05 PM

Sal Gurnee

12-31-2003, 03:15 PM

And really, what percentage of people who hack hardware to steal signal are doing so with the intent to demo, and then decide to buy, or cease using the signal?

Bryan

Bryan,
I have no idea what the numbers are, but I can only speak from personal experience and I cannot believe my situation is unique.

It really has nothing to do with 'intent' but rather 'effect'. It is clear that most hackers' intent is to get free TV. However, a large amount of people who think they can hack DTV fail either because they don't want to spend the time and money necessary, realize there is legal risk, or just are too plain stupid to figure out the hacks. By that point, they have already purchased all of the Directv equipment. It is at that point where they realize that Directv is better than cable, plus they already spent the money on equipment ... so they get the Platinum package to at least come close to the level that they had with a successful hack. Over 3 years, I have directly contributed to at least 10 Directv Subscriptions from failed hackers. As far as having Directv and then ceasing to use the signal (as in, stop hacking and not subscribing) ... well the only time I have EVER seen that happen is when somebody moves into a building and can't put a dish up. Directv (especially DirecTivo) is addictive. Once you are on it, you are on it for life.

FredThompson

12-31-2003, 03:31 PM

Under U.S. law, DirecTV has an obligation to prosecute. Otherwise,they run the risk of losing their IP. In that regard, it's like any other IP (trademark, etc.) and there is no white hat/black hat aspect.

Sal Gurnee

12-31-2003, 03:31 PM

There is no locked box in your backyard.

This is aerial transmission. It has nothing to do with a physical item in your possession.

Hacking cell phones, cordless phones, WIFI intrussions, etc. are all illegal and for good reason. There's probably a slight argument along the lines of "attractive nuisance" like swimming pools in which the owner has a legal responsibility to provide some protection but that's it.

If this were the 1900's, you'd have a point. It was valid then but the laws have changed in order for us to have a computer age.

There is no locked box in your backyard.
How do you know, have you been in my backyard? :D

Hacking cell phones, cordless phones, WIFI intrussions, etc. are all illegal and for good reason. There's probably a slight argument along the lines of "attractive nuisance" like swimming pools in which the owner has a legal responsibility to provide some protection but that's it.

I am not arguing the legality of hacking DTV, I am just saying that everybody does not see this as a black and white issue. Hacking Cell phones, WIFI and everything mentioned above is an aggressive intrusion usually causing some sort of direct harm to a person, business or system. For example, if one hacks a cell phone, they could be charging minutes on another person's phone, at the very least they are tying up cell phone systems and equipment. Stealing WIFI could be stealing identities, stealing personal info and bogging down somebody's DSL/cable line.
DirecTV is passive. There is no direct effect to hacking the signal. You are not clogging the system, you aren't slowing anybody else down. There are certainly indirect effects. One of the most common complaints is that hackers cause paying subscribers to pay more because DirecTv has to spend money on stopping hackers. My argument from my previous post is that indirectly, Directv benefits financially from hackers because they inadvertantly promote the product to others who subscribe because it is too difficult to hack.

FredThompson

12-31-2003, 03:45 PM

Sigh. ok, yes, I can't see your backyard...

The rest of your post is either wrong or irrelevant. Finacial gain to DirecTV due to failed hackers doesn't nullify the law nor does it make their actions legal. Only the government can claim that kind of defense, sorry.

I didn't say anything about incurring charge on phones by hacking. Frequency scanning to listen to other people's conversations is illegal. That's what I meant. I should have been more explicit.

Direct loss is not a requirement for an act to be illegal. That's the point I made earlier. Infringement is illegal and doesn't require loss. You're confusing theft with infringement. Both are illegal and have similar, yet unequal, potential legal consequences.

This happens all the time with trademarks and other IP. The only protected forms of non-theft copying are satire, some forms of educational use, news, and legal documentation. Maybe there are a few others but that's it.

Nope, can't claim educational use. It's not a santioned "classroom" use.

FredThompson

12-31-2003, 03:48 PM

Speaking of locked boxes, I wouldn't be surprised if utility boxes on your property are exempt from the aspect of possession. IOW, even though they're there, it's illegal for you to get into them...

fr3d

12-31-2003, 04:05 PM

Wal-Mart does not use my backyard as their product warehouse. Directv does. If I found a big mysterious locked box in my backyard, why wouldn't I try and open it? So I go to the hardware store, by some equipment to HACK open the box and check out what is inside. Afterall, its sitting in my backyard.

Sure peek inside, but continuous use to get out of paying the provider is a different story; thats really my issue with the DCMA, peeking is OK, theft is not.

So Directv beams signals to my backyard. Did I ask for them? No. So I go to the store and BUY (not steal) the equipment necessary to use the signals that are being beamed without my permission to my backyard.

Well if you vote you did, as your elected officials maintain the FCC for you not them (although sometimes I agree that its hard to see that)

Suppose then that other people come over and see what I'm doing. They say, 'Wow Sal, you did that all on your own? Can I do that?.' I say, 'Sure, but you need to know what you are doing and it takes money and a lot of time. If you aren't really good at it, your TV won't work for weeks at a time!'. They say, 'well maybe I'll give it a try!'. So they go to the store and buy a bunch of directv equipment. 2 weeks later they realize they have no idea what they are doing. They had the free stuff for a couple of weeks, so they realize how much DTV is better than cable. BOOM, magically, DirecTV has another platinum subscriber with no gimmics, promotions or advertisments.

Dillution, come on its not that hard, even without sleepers ISO! Plus the numbers that convert as a result of service theft hacks would be nominal at best.

Now lets get back to picking on David ;)