Very good a SA Series 2 board :)

[Raymond Day]

I was going to the "DirecTiVo Series 2 Hacking" because there was none for SA Series 2 but now there is. Thank you for putting in this part in the database!

[NutKase]

I was going to the "DirecTiVo Series 2 Hacking" because there was none for SA Series 2 but now there is. Thank you for putting in this part in the database!

And I was just thinking that this SA forum separation was a waste of time. :) I have 2 SA S2 machines so I've got to say a few words.


Separation by Series 1 and Series 2 makes perfect sense. Separation by SA or dtivo doesn't make quite so much sense. A more realistic separation would be by tivo operating system.

As the 4.x hdvr owners can tell you most S2 machines can run each other's software thus blurring the separation by 'type' tivo hardware into oblivion.

Another thing, even reading the hardware separated dtivo forums you can tell that most hacks are released, and problems with those hacks are fixed, related to the version of software you're running NOT the type of hardware it's running on.

Anything I've posted works on a SA tivo just like it'll work on ANY tivo running 4.x software. I sure won't be moving my posts here (and I hope the mods won't either.)



:)

NutKase

[Vadim]

So if you were to do it by software what categories would you prefer?

And I was just thinking that this SA forum separation was a waste of time. :) I have 2 SA S2 machines so I've got to say a few words.


Separation by Series 1 and Series 2 makes perfect sense. Separation by SA or dtivo doesn't make quite so much sense. A more realistic separation would be by tivo operating system.

As the 4.x hdvr owners can tell you most S2 machines can run each other's software thus blurring the separation by 'type' tivo hardware into oblivion.

Another thing, even reading the hardware separated dvtivo forums you can tell that most hacks are released or problems with them are fixed/related to the version of software you're running NOT the type of hardware it's running on.

Anything I've posted works on a SA tivo just like it'll work on ANY tivo running 4.x software and I sure won't be moving my posts here (and I hope the mods won't either.)



:)

NutKase

[alldeadhomiez]

So if you were to do it by software what categories would you prefer?

Separating it by skill level would be a more meaningful distinction, since so many pieces of the TiVo software architecture are shared amongst S1/S2 and SA/DTiVo, with only minor exceptions.

In particular, it would be a good thing to separate "expert only" hack announcement/development threads from support threads. The bazaar isn't optimal so maybe it's time to try a cathedral. Maybe we should encourage hackers to post in an area set up like the heavily policed technical forums on PD, to keep the S/N up.

[NutKase]

So if you were to do it by software what categories would you prefer?

I see your point. I can't fire off a quick answer because of the 'quandry'.

My first impression would be


1. Newbies

2. S1s

3. S2s with versions that REQUIRE monte (ie checking via initrd)
-3.2 and later for SA machines
-and 3.01(or whatever version it was) for DTIVOs

4. Extraction

5. Experts/Programming - Can we take a little 25 question test or something :).

6. Hardware

7. General tivo discussions

et. al.


Oh, I just thought of an example of why I don't like the 'hardware separation technique'.

The 'StandAlone Series 2 People Out of Luck thread' covered most of the trail from 4.0 to 4.01 to extraction and was never made a 'sticky'. The 'Tips for 4.0 on your DTivo' was made a sticky after only a few weeks and we covered most of the same stuff over again there as users ran into the same problems w/4.x.

Anyway, I see that many SA threads are in the DTivo S2 forums now so I guess someone is seeing that the line is very blurry.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not criticizing just offering another observation. Yours is a hard task and I don't envy you. What the heck, the board is kicking and if people would read organization would follow.

DDB is my favorite place on the net!


NutKase

[Sleeper]

I think heirarchial is needed as well.

Newbie
S1
S2

Tools/Hacks/Utilities (Not Including Extraction)

30 Second SkipVersion 2.X
Version 3.X
Version 4.x

TivoWeb
All Versions

Noscramble
Version 2.x
Version 3.x
Version 4.x

Extraction Tools/Utilities

MFS_FTP
General
Version 2.x
Version 3.x
Version 4.x

TyTools
All Versions

Developers/Expert

Hardware

General

Sewer (Place to move questions that should not be asked)

[Sleeper]

That is just an example, not verbatim.

[NutKase]

That is just an example, not verbatim.

That's a pretty good start. I like the path. Is there a way to schedule a IRC 'real-time' chat and bump around some ideas with a bunch of regulars with some time on the boards. This might result in quicker suggestions and some brainstorming synergy (real corporate power words :) ...

Just a thought.

NutKase

[Vadim]

I like the way you want to organize this, but there is a problem. Current threads are way to long, who will sort them? Start new ones?

Maybe add as we go?

IRC will be available on the new server.

[NutKase]

I like the way you want to organize this, but there is a problem. Current threads are way to long, who will sort them? Start new ones?

Maybe add as we go?

IRC will be available on the new server.

By IRC, I meant let's just jump onto irc.freenode.net with mIRC or something and open a room to figure all this out.

The organizing will be the hardest but as things become hack/software version dependant things should smooth out.

I don't think starting a new thread for each platform as was alluded to here (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136538#post136538) is the way you (we) want to go is it?

NutKase

PS. Something is wrong with the URL insertion. [EDIT] It's fixed now.

[David Bought]

I think heirarchial is needed as well.

You've got to be shitting me. This isn't some stupid blog, this is a discussion board. Your categories are entirely too rigid and you have shoehorned all development (the only reason this board exists) into one forum.

If you want to pretend that the existing hacks are the end-all and be-all of Tivo hacking, fine, but go do it someplace else. This board is here to foster development, not stagnation.

P.S. The new layout stinks and doesn't solve any of the problems. Proposal: ONE newbie/sewer forum, and make everything else read-only for non-developers.

[captain_video]

I think the current layout is on the right track but I'd like to see a few more improvements. One thing I'd like to see is an intro section with an overall description of what each forum contains, what to expect to find there, and what are the appropriate topics for posting (i.e. forum rules). I see a lot of effort put in by the mods with general housekeeping to post the threads in the appropriate forums so hopefully this could reduce the workload on them. I think the mods should work on this and put it together based on whatever layout is agreed upon. I'm not trying to dump a workload on anyone but I feel since Vadim and the mods will probably be the ones to set up any layout changes then they would be most qualified to provide a roadmap for the membership.

Next, I'd like to see a FAQ developed for each section that would cover the most common topics of discussion pertinent to that section. An organized list of known problems and workarounds would help eliminate the massive redundancy in posts. One sticky containing the latest versions of scripts and tools could be posted so everything is organized for easy retrieval and reference. Keep the discussions of the latest software in separate threads and limit the number of posts in each one. When the thread hits the prescribed limit, start a new thread with a link to the predecessor thread as the first post to keep the sizes more manageable.

A How Tos section for each forum would be in order similar to what is currently buried in the S1 DTivo section. Many of the stickys in the S1 DTivo section should probably be ported over to the newbies section since a lot of them apply to newbies.

A separate experts/development forum would be in order to separate the latest tools under development from the other forums. When a new software program is finalized and out of the development phase, it should then be moved over to the appropriate forum for general use and discussion.

Just my 2 cents.

[mrblack51]

I think the current layout is on the right track but I'd like to see a few more improvements. One thing I'd like to see is an intro section with an overall description of what each forum contains, what to expect to find there, and what are the appropriate topics for posting (i.e. forum rules). I see a lot of effort put in by the mods with general housekeeping to post the threads in the appropriate forums so hopefully this could reduce the workload on them. I think the mods should work on this and put it together based on whatever layout is agreed upon. I'm not trying to dump a workload on anyone but I feel since Vadim and the mods will probably be the ones to set up any layout changes then they would be most qualified to provide a roadmap for the membership.

if that means i have a screen i would have to click through every time i come to the forums - no way. if its a one time thing, with a cookie set indicating you had read it, then i suppose it might have some value.

A separate experts/development forum would be in order to separate the latest tools under development from the other forums. When a new software program is finalized and out of the development phase, it should then be moved over to the appropriate forum for general use and discussion.

last i checked, i havent seen any tools that have stopped development. the owners may have disappeared, but all the tools are in constant development

[captain_video]

if that means i have a screen i would have to click through every time i come to the forums - no way. if its a one time thing, with a cookie set indicating you had read it, then i suppose it might have some value.

I was thinking along the line of a one time thing, mostly for newbies. Without any sort of direction for first-time users, its easy to post inappropriate topics or topics in the wrong forum. Aside from general common sense about forum etiquette, it's not cut and dried exactly what the rules are for posting. I see lots of newbies getting flamed simply because they don't know any better.

last i checked, i havent seen any tools that have stopped development. the owners may have disappeared, but all the tools are in constant development

There are lots of programs being introduced in beta format that don't get introduced into the mainstream until after they've been tested for a while by a handful of members. jdiner does this quite regularly when trying out new versions of TyTool. This usually results in posts on the beta version clogging up the TyTool thread when only a handful of individuals actually have the program to work with. This may be a minor issue and not of utmost importance. Like I said, it's just my 2 cents.

[David Bought]

I see lots of newbies getting flamed simply because they don't know any better.

That is why you lurk for a while before you start asking stupid questions.

[AVD]

You've got to be shitting me. This isn't some stupid blog, this is a discussion board. Your categories are entirely too rigid and you have shoehorned all development (the only reason this board exists) into one forum..


I thought the purpose of this board was to share coupon codes for Amazon ;)

[Sleeper]

You've got to be shitting me. This isn't some stupid blog, this is a discussion board. Your categories are entirely too rigid and you have shoehorned all development (the only reason this board exists) into one forum.

If you want to pretend that the existing hacks are the end-all and be-all of Tivo hacking, fine, but go do it someplace else. This board is here to foster development, not stagnation. .

I never said otherwise. My forementioned post was just an example. Obviously, new hacks/forums will be created. The only thing rigid is your interpretation.

P.S. The new layout stinks and doesn't solve any of the problems. Proposal: ONE newbie/sewer forum, and make everything else read-only for non-developers

It's better than the old. And any improvement is better thatn none at all. Now lets stop pissing on each other, we can respectfully disagree.

[David Bought]

It's better than the old. And any improvement is better thatn none at all.

No, it's worse than the old. The new pages are bloated and make excessive use of flashy, useless Javascript features. And adding another useless forum (S2 SA) which gets almost zero traffic was pointless.

Face it, over 90% of the posts on DDB are useless. Vadim should split the board into two parts: a moderated expert/technical/contributors forum where newbie posts cause the poster to be banned by IP, and a for-pay-only newbie forum where the newbies can start reimbursing him for the bandwidth overages they are causing.

[NutKase]

adding another useless forum (S2 SA) which gets almost zero traffic was pointless.

I agree and I have 2 of them.

Vadim should split the board into two parts: a moderated expert/technical/contributors forum where newbie posts cause the poster to be banned by IP, and a for-pay-only newbie forum where the newbies can start reimbursing him for the bandwidth overages they are causing.

Jeez,
I wish I had thought of that... errr, as long as I make the expert/technical/contributors cut :).

A very good idea, but anyone admitted to the expert/technical/contributors forum should be admitted without cost as contributors to the for-pay-only newbie forum if it suits them to help.

NutKase

[captain_video]

How about we make David Bought put a quarter in the coffers every time he flames someone for being stupid. That should keep the forum going until the next millenium, at least.


That is why you lurk for a while before you start asking stupid questions.

Lurking should indeed be a prerequisite but unless you know where to lurk you'll just get lost and confused, resulting in stupid newbie questions. This forum is sort of a Catch22 situation for newbies. There is such an influx of new data coming in all the time that it's hard to keep it all organized where it's easy to find. You'll never eliminate the redundancy but a better organization could help reduce it to a point where it doesn't overwhelm the forums with repetitive posts. Perhaps a probationary period could be set up whereby newbies would be allowed to lurk but not post any topics for the first 30 days after registering.

[David Bought]

Lurking should indeed be a prerequisite but unless you know where to lurk you'll just get lost and confused, resulting in stupid newbie questions.

Stupid newbie questions happen because the newbies have not read enough, period.

There is no excuse for the plethora of stupid questions we see here on a daily basis in the development forums. Every one of them has been answered dozens or hundreds of times over, often in the past week. Posts which break the rules should be immediately locked and should result in a ban.

[Vadim]

I'm still reading this daily, I just want to see what people have to say.

[Sleeper]

DB, If you were Saint Peter, Heaven would be vacant!

[Sleeper]

I like the way you want to organize this, but there is a problem. Current threads are way to long, who will sort them? Start new ones?

Maybe add as we go?

IRC will be available on the new server.

First off, Could we move this thread to the General Discussions Forum? Thanks.

Actually, I'm thinking that what's really needed is a combination of new heirarcial forums/threads combined with indexing of old threads. It would be impractical to think that all the old threads are going to be actually move. So 2 thoughts. 1) Better orginazitional layout moving forward 2) Better indexing of existing threads.

the new layout could be thought of an overlay to the existing one.

I think the redundancy could be cut down if things were easier to find. When I use a reference manual, I look up the info I want and go there and read it. I think its much more effective than searching due to the skill (keywords) required and large amount of results.

I also believe that several qualified members would voulnteer to maintain subsets of the index or Table of Contents - each responsible for a chapter. Some type of back channel/PM/seperate forum could be used for suggestions or updates to the index.

[mrblack51]

we really need to get rid of the SA s2 area and merge it back with the s2 dtivo stuff to have one unified S2 area. the amount of info that needs to be moved around if it stays like this is immense, and i think the sa s2 area will remain weak at best.

[JJBliss]

we really need to get rid of the SA s2 area and merge it back with the s2 dtivo stuff to have one unified S2 area. the amount of info that needs to be moved around if it stays like this is immense, and i think the sa s2 area will remain weak at best.



I agree.

As a moderator, I NOW get more requests then ever to move posts around, or make copies in more then one forum where the topic might be appropriate. VERY rarely did I ever see issues where folks wanted a specific SA topic removed from a DTivo forum.

I have purposefully not been very vocal about the new forum layout. I like the design, but am not thrilled with the topic layout. In fact, I actually find myself thinking we need to COMPRESS the number of different forums. The number of hacks that are different between combination and stand-alone units are inconsequential. With proper use of the search button, and with users learning to properly identify the unit that they are reffering to, there is no reason to seperate our discussions with that level of granularity.

I might even go so far to reccomend a coding system similar to what fixn278 and I devised on Tivostuff.

Though I REALLY don't think it's necessary, maybe all the folks here think that identifying a post, hack, topic, fix, etc.. is important. That way, we might mitigate the risk of folks trying to use Sleeper's tivoscripts ISO on their DSR6000 etcetera.

How about

S1: Series 1 Stand Alone
D1: Series 1 DirecTivo
S2: Series 2 Stand Alone
D2: Series 2 DirecTivo
ALL: ALL (duh)

A post might have a terminating "code" in the subject line. Such as:

Sleeper's New Tivoscripts ISO - [S2/D2]

or

Increase DTivo Buffer - [ALL]

Putting the "code" in square brackets would allow this to also be searchable criteria, and might make it easier for folks to find topics that suited them.

Just a suggestion.

[fixn278]

How about

S1: Series 1 Stand Alone
D1: Series 1 DirecTivo
S2: Series 2 Stand Alone
D2: Series 2 DirecTivo
ALL: ALL (duh)

A post might have a terminating "code" in the subject line. Such as:

Sleeper's New Tivoscripts ISO - [S2/D2]

or

Increase DTivo Buffer - [ALL]

Putting the "code" in square brackets would allow this to also be searchable criteria, and might make it easier for folks to find topics that suited them.

Just a suggestion.

I think it's a good idea. It took a little time to go through the files on Tivostuff, but I think it was worth it in the end. Now there's no question about what the software will and won't work on (unless I got it wrong...)

One suggestion though... I would stay away from an "ALL" type classification. As of today, a script may work on all hardware/software platforms, but what happens when the next version eeks out? I think I would also list what OS versions code may or may not work on.

If you need help sifting through posts, let me know.

[splitsec]

I agree that the forums should be arranged by Series rather than Dtivo/SA.

I think that the signal to noise ratio might be improved if the was a moderated section where "completed" hacks could be posted, but no discussion would be allowed on them. Discussions around those hacks would occur in the un-moderated forum.

Of course this brings up a whole discussion around what completed means. I think it should include hacks that have reached at least a "beta" stage. (ie. have been tested on more than just the author's box, and the number of bugs being reported has dropped).

Just a thought.

Split

PS. If you need help sifting through the posts let me know, I can test on an S1 and S2

[JJBliss]

One suggestion though... I would stay away from an "ALL" type classification. As of today, a script may work on all hardware/software platforms, but what happens when the next version eeks out? I think I would also list what OS versions code may or may not work on.



I think ALL might be too exlusionary vis a vis new versions of software that will undoubtedly come out. So, I agree with fixn278.

However, I disagree about the software revision in the subject line of posts, but I think it might be an issue that developers might want to adopt when posting code/hacks, so that there is a reference point in their attachments, but since thread topics cannot be changed by the average user, it means that a new thread would have to be started for each version of software and that would unnecessarily clutter the board even more.

[Sleeper]

I think ALL might be too exlusionary vis a vis new versions of software that will undoubtedly come out. So, I agree with fixn278.

However, I disagree about the software revision in the subject line of posts, but I think it might be an issue that developers might want to adopt when posting code/hacks, so that there is a reference point in their attachments, but since thread topics cannot be changed by the average user, it means that a new thread would have to be started for each version of software and that would unnecessarily clutter the board even more.

I agree that software and hardware versions should not appear in the top level. The Chapters/folders/forum names should be completely hardware and software independent. Software and hardware specific threads should be sub-forum/folders as needed. It is more likely that the hacks will stay more consistent than the hardware and software versions.

So there could be something like this:

/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/General
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Versions X - Y
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Version Z
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/SA Specific

/Extraction/mfs_ftp
/Extraction/mfs_ftp/General
/Extraction/mfs_ftp/Versions D - F

[Sleeper]

I think that the signal to noise ratio might be improved if the was a moderated section where "completed" hacks could be posted, but no discussion would be allowed on them. Discussions around those hacks would occur in the un-moderated forum.

I couldn't agree more with this. Especially since I created such a monster. I would like to have the authority to go in and clean the 40 + pages of mess up.

This suggestion could be implemented by giving only certain individuals/authors write privledges to the thread. So something like this could be done:

/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb (No Content - Title/Parent)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/General (Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Versions X - Y ((Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Version Z (Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/SA Specific (Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Questions-Problems (Read/Write)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Enhancements-Suggestions (Read/Write)

[NutKase]

/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb (No Content - Title/Parent)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/General (Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Versions X - Y ((Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Version Z (Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/SA Specific (Read Only - Except to Authors)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Questions-Problems (Read/Write)
/Utilities-Hacks/TivoWeb/Enhancements-Suggestions (Read/Write)

Sleeper that's sounds confusing and hard to maintain, so I can't say I'm in favor of it.

But since I've already made my pitch in the second post for what I feel would be easier I don't have a better answer.

I'm sure the smart people here can make a better choice.

Heck, as far as pruning and trimming authority... I'm not even allowed to delete my own posts.

NutKase

[Sleeper]

Sleeper that's sounds confusing and hard to maintain, so I can't say I'm in favor of it.

Any type of organizational system takes time and effort to do the organizing. I believe that sub-forums are avaible in V-Bulletin

Separation by Series 1 and Series 2 makes perfect sense. Separation by SA or dtivo doesn't make quite so much sense. A more realistic separation would be by tivo operating system.

Seperation/organization by Series 1/2, manufacturer or software version makes little sense at all.

Seperation by utility/hack makes much more sense. The utilities/hacks are more persistent. Frequently they overlap from Series 1/2, manufacturer and software version. It makes absolutey no sense to discuss the "noscramble" hack (for example) in several different forums based on hardware or software version. It makes much more sense for the root or sub-root forum to be "noscramble" and to have sub-forums for each of the different hardware/software versions.

You stated my case exactly here:

As the 4.x hdvr owners can tell you most S2 machines can run each other's software thus blurring the separation by 'type' tivo hardware into oblivion.

[mrblack51]

Seperation/organization by Series 1/2, manufacturer or software version makes little sense at all.

while overlap exists, there is a significant enough difference that seperate forums are warranted. maybe this wont be the case when a standardized tivo package format is available, but until then, the mips vs. ppc differences, the differences in hackibility, the differences in what software versions and which hacks can be applied warrant seperate areas for each series.

[AlphaWolf]

Hmmm...I think the current way we have it is kind of messy. Let me 'splain....

When I browse the forums, I generally don't have time to look in every tivo forum we have...there are just too many of them. If I or somebody else post a hack that is meant for more than one tivo sw version, we have one of several forums to pick from, yet each offer very big disadvantages rather than advantages.

For example: say I post a hack that I developed on an S1 directivo, yet it should be compatible with all four major hardware versions; where do I post it? Not everybody is going to browse every forum, so not all of them will see it. The general tivo discussions forum doesn't really imply hacking, or at least the description and the posts that already exist there don't seem to imply it at all. The newbies forum is a bad idea to post a new hack for many reasons that are needless to say. The experts forum should be more or less only developmental posts such as "something I found while playing with this kernel memory address, this attribute, this binary patch, etc" and only alpha/untested scripts, as no newbie or regular user would really visit it, because they may not consider themselves an expert (I didn't frequent it until recently.)

VADIM: (sorry for the caps/color, just wanted to make sure I get your attention here especially :D )

I think the entire "Category: TiVo, DirecTivo and other Electronics Hacking & Discussions" should be arranged exactly in this order:

NEWBIE TiVo/DirecTiVo Hacking: Because many newbies and impatient types tend to start browsing and posting into the first forum they find, and post questions that are frequently asked. Might also consider requiring the first post or two that any new member makes be in this forum only. (maybe not...heres a nostalgic look at my very first post to DDB (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7401)...needless to say I understand the frustration of newbism.)

General TiVo discussions.: general talk, would fit good right below the newbie spot (or maybe above? *shrug*)

TiVo Extraction Forum: because its a huge subject in tivo hacking land that pretty much everybody and their mothers dog is interested in.

Series 1 StandAlone and DirecTivo Hacking: its best that we always narrow the tivos down to as few major hardware revisions as possible. In the old days it was good to separate dtivo and standalone, because they had huge differences in terms of both software and hardware. Nowadays however, most of these differences have been relieved by software revisions that kinda sync the two. The only major differences in my mind now are the dual tuners, where the guide data comes from, and the means with which the tivo encodes the video. When it comes to hacks though, these differences don't mean a whole lot anymore. Now the big differences come by hardware architecture, and the fact that 4.0 brings MAJOR changes, and will not be available for S1 units.

Series 2 StandAlone and DirecTivo Hacking: actually might swap the order of S2 and S1, depending on which one is more popular...probably the later.

Experts TiVo/DirecTiVo Hacking: Since experts are in the minority, this forum should be listed near the end, but should probably have an emboldened notice to the effect of "developmental discussion only, but feel free to read about possible future hacks, as well as a good place to learn more about how the inner workings of the tivos function"

Tivo Hardware Problems/Troubleshooting: also a minority; probably less of these than developers/tinkerers, as hardware is much harder.

Also one more minor (or not so minor) request: bigger avatars :D

EDIT: One more thing, I don't really think there should be any read only forums. Just the forums that are highly technical should have several seasoned tivo hackers as moderators to either remove or delete posts that are excess/useless/newbie/stupid. I nominate alldeadhomiez and musclenerd to boot:D

[AlphaWolf]

I might even go so far to reccomend a coding system similar to what fixn278 and I devised on Tivostuff.


Actually I was the first to devise that, with the first few tystudio releases :P

EDIT: Ooops, old thread, should have looked before posting :/