New Rules Will Be Released Soon! [Archive] - DealDatabase Forum - Deals, Freebies, and TiVo & DirecTivo Hacking

Vadim

01-14-2004, 02:26 AM

Due to recent problems I have decided to close "David Bought Banned" thread and let everyone relax.
I have decided that I will release the rules that will outline everything I think is the right thing to do.

I'll tell you all up front! I don't like when someone is bashing the newbies, because the newbies are very important part of this board, weather you like it or not! WE WILL NOT BAN NEWBIES FOR POSTING IN THE WRONG FORUM!

Service theft will be stricktly enforced!

The rules will be set by ME! That means that you will not be able to add anything to them, you will only be able to suggest and I will consider EVERY suggestion!

David, as for you! I'll tell you wide open in the public! I don't like your attitude towards the newbies, they are people too! They deserve a right to voice themselfs. Everyone here at DDB will be treated equally! Yes seniority will play a large role but it won't set you free from any kind of rule violations.
All I ask is that you treat others the way you want to be treated!

Also no bashings between people will be accepted! All violators, no matter who started it, will be temporary bannned. Three strike rule will be implemeted here as well!

Yes Newbie forums are there for a reason! Yes newbies will have those pointed out to them and they will be moved to the top but newbies will NOT be banned for posting in the wrong forum! Specially on the first offense.

Some people are religous here, so please do not offened those! Think what you are writing!

The above are not rules, those are being written and will be posted here shortly. Feel free to discuss anything in this thread! Keep in mind NO BASHING!!!! AND DO NOT PICK ON PEOPLE'S PROFESSIONS!

Vadim

01-14-2004, 02:34 AM

Oh Yes,
Almost forgot! This is not developers only board! If it was we'd have like 10-20 poeple posting! So we need to be friendly here! Respect the developers but do not ignore others!

Some newbies are very technical and can help out with a lot of developing! Do not make them leave just because they don't know all the ins and out of the tivo.

tivomaster

01-14-2004, 09:49 AM

All I have to say is AMEN!!!!!
I hope we can all return to being civil ADULTS. (me included)
I think it is time to bury the hatchet and get back to a friendly atmosphere where hackers where they are nurtured not neutered.

newbie

01-14-2004, 10:57 AM

1) Change the default search option to show results as posts. Showing the results as thread is next to worthless.

2) Try to "clean up" some of the older, inaccurate how to thread stickys.

3) Some forums don't allow new users to post for a few days. That encourages them to read the stickys and use the search post before posting questions.

4) Consider making the expert forum a real expert forum. A forum that DB can be comfortable with.

5) Ask people to stop trolling for new members in the TCF. I think all of the posts on TCF relating to 4.0 on DTivo is one of the reasons Tivo starting cracking down on the FTP sites.

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 11:33 AM

1) Change the default search option to show results as posts. Showing the results as thread is next to worthless.

iirc, this also chews up a lot more server resources. If you notice, TCF has placed several default restrictions on your search queries, namely, you get very limited search results with the defaults (note, it's also impossible to search the entire TCF database), and you are limited to one search every 15 seconds. I would hate to see these limitations on DDB. That said though...

Vadim: for great justice, please don't ever administer DDB the same way david bott does TCF, thanks :)

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 11:44 AM

Oh, BTW vadim, fwiw, mrblack51 and I were discussing that layout I mentioned earlier, and we kind of agreed on this:

newbie forum (ask anything, most questions get redirected to other forums when somebody feels like answering them. no flaming permitted)

general tivo discussion forum ("talk only" posts - nothing technical)

extraction forum ('nuff said)

s1 hacking forum (all S1 hacks that have passed the "alpha" phase that is the hack development forum mentioned below)

s2 hacking forum (all S2 hacks that have passed the "alpha" phase that is the hack development forum mentioned below)

hack development forum (expert forum renamed...basically hack forum with zero support requests, give moderator privileges to those who are seasoned developers and longtime members. Only posts about theorising possible hacks, technical structure of the tivos, or hacks that are works in progress and don't necessarily give any usefull results yet)

broken tivo forum (if it loops, doesn't boot at all, or for some unknown reason just doesn't quite work how its supposed to, this is the place to talk about it)

BTW, the reason for merging SA and Dtivo is b/c the differences between the two that existed in the old days of hacking aren't really there anymore with the release of the newer software versions.

malfunct

01-14-2004, 11:52 AM

Oh, BTW vadim, fwiw, mrblack51 and I were discussing that layout I mentioned earlier, and we kind of agreed on this:

I like that layout, we should also have a section for FAQ's that should not allow any posts except by the FAQ owners. Seems everyone tries to do this in stickies but unfortunately the billion questions hides the important info. I think that the biggest thing we could do to aid newbies and relieve the stress on developers and others who help is to have a properly maintained set of FAQ's.

David Bought

01-14-2004, 11:55 AM

the newbies are very important part of this board, weather you like it or not!

The rules will be set by ME! That means that you will not be able to add anything to them, you will only be able to suggest and I will consider EVERY suggestion!

DB suggestion #1: any hacker forum will become worthless if you drive the developers away. Focus on ways to raise the S/N instead of suckling at the newbies' teets for donation revenue. Read the board, keep things in perspective, and understand who is posting the hacks that make DDB possible. Hint: it's not the guys who don't know what a "kernal" [sic] does and it's not the guys who come here begging for DTV hacking tools.

Consider making the expert forum a real expert forum.

DB suggestion #2: move all of the good, informative threads in to the expert forum, instead of scattering them in random places around the sewer. Move the support and garbage posts out of those threads into a separate forum so that the threads in the expert forum only contain technical information. Forbid non-technical and garbage posts in the expert forum, and impose temporary bans for violations. Currently most of the informative posts are mixed in with the crap, so they are hard to find.

DB suggestion #3: re-enable the custom user title and custom avatar features, and allow custom avatars larger than 50x50.

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 12:30 PM

DB suggestion #3: re-enable the custom user title and custom avatar features, and allow custom avatars larger than 50x50.

I second that...I grieve over the loss of my 100x100 avatars that I have on other forums :D

tiivohoe

01-14-2004, 12:59 PM

DB suggestion #3: re-enable the custom user title and custom avatar features, and allow custom avatars larger than 50x50.

And this would enhance the board, how?

Vadim

01-14-2004, 01:03 PM

First of all, I'm not suckling at the newbies teets for donation revenue. Developers are not driven away because newbies because there are newbies on the board! No one makes you answer any questions! Don't like the question, skip it!

DB suggestion #1: any hacker forum will become worthless if you drive the developers away. Focus on ways to raise the S/N instead of suckling at the newbies' teets for donation revenue. Read the board, keep things in perspective, and understand who is posting the hacks that make DDB possible. Hint: it's not the guys who don't know what a "kernal" [sic] does and it's not the guys who come here begging for DTV hacking tools.

DB suggestion #2: move all of the good, informative threads in to the expert forum, instead of scattering them in random places around the sewer. Move the support and garbage posts out of those threads into a separate forum so that the threads in the expert forum only contain technical information. Forbid non-technical and garbage posts in the expert forum, and impose temporary bans for violations. Currently most of the informative posts are mixed in with the crap, so they are hard to find.

What else? You want me to ban people for reading the wrong forum? Would you like to get arrested for asking "where is the electronics department?" while standing right next to it in the department store? How about kicked in the face for ordering coke in the place that serves pepsi?
Sure some stuff could get better sorted but banning people for posting in the wrong forum is just plain wrong!

DB suggestion #3: re-enable the custom user title and custom avatar features, and allow custom avatars larger than 50x50.

That could be done, but not until the new server! However since you keep complaining that i'm sucking up to the newbies for donation.. Maybe I should stop that and just wait for a million bucks to fall into my hands? What do you think of that suggestion? Now maybe developers contribute to the hacks but the newbies contribute in keeping this place RUNNING! Keep that in mind. I'm not saying no one except newbies donated to the new server fund but what I'm saying a lot of them did! Face the facts, everyone cannot be a president, in USA there is 1 president and 1 vice president. :) What would happened if we had a dozen presidents and each one of them sign different bills and allow different laws to be passed... Hmm I could see some interesting results...

Enjoy.

Vadim

01-14-2004, 01:06 PM

DB suggestion #3: re-enable the custom user title and custom avatar features, and allow custom avatars larger than 50x50.

And this would enhance the board, how?

So we can see a bigger picture of a toilet.

David Bought

01-14-2004, 01:35 PM

Developers are not driven away because newbies because there are newbies on the board! No one makes you answer any questions! Don't like the question, skip it!

Again, you don't read the board so you don't realize what a big turn-off the redundant newbie garbage is when it gets in the way of actual development. A lot of good developers leave for that very reason. Why do you think TCF sucks so much? They stopped serving the developers' interests. The only "Tivo hacking" discussions left at TCF are instructions on adding a larger hard drive. Alienate the developers and that will be DDB's future too.

Maintaining a high S/N for the developers is critical. If you don't believe me because you think I'm a j3rk, fine, ask some other developers because I'm not the only one.

That could be done, but not until the new server! However since you keep complaining that i'm sucking up to the newbies for donation.. Maybe I should stop that and just wait for a million bucks to fall into my hands? What do you think of that suggestion?

Would you need a new server if there were only "10-20 developers" participating? Why do you think this site is so expensive to run? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that there are thousands of newbies taxing your resources? They are the source of your problems. If this board were for development only (something I am not advocating, there should be a newbie forum which they subsidize and where they post all of their questions), it could be run on a $5/month web hosting account, and yes that would include custom avatars and custom user titles. :D

Face the facts, everyone cannot be a president, in USA there is 1 president and 1 vice president. :) What would happened if we had a dozen presidents and each one of them sign different bills and allow different laws to be passed... Hmm I could see some interesting results...

What the heck are you talking about?

So we can see a bigger picture of a toilet.

I have a new avatar lined up which is very much not a toilet. :D

Vadim

01-14-2004, 02:04 PM

So basically you want to just close this forum for the 20 developers and run it on a $5 hosting account? Sounds like a plan, wonder why I didn't think of that before.

The only way you let a community expand is when you allow more people in it, else it becomes a small members only club that is not accepting new registrations.

I DO NOT SUPPORT BASHING THE NEWBIES! BESIDES THERE IS AN EXPERT FORUM! If you are not taking advantage of it, that is not my fault. If you notice, no one except experts posts there! Besides if you are so good and know everything, then why bother reading other threads except the one that interest you?

David, Do me a favor. Think logically, what's the point of having a forum with 20 people that are allowed to post?

I'm glad to see more newbies, more people, etc.. It makes the whole forum grow and the whole community grow, more intellegent people join and help with development. Come on.. I'm not here to argue with you but I don't support your opinion on blocking the newbies.. This shouldn't be "developers only board", trust me if it was like that even the developers would leave in couple of weeks. No one likes to come to a dead party or a club that has only 20 people in it... Even if those 20 came to party hard they'll most likely to leave when the see that the place is empty and they won't even stay half an hour just to see if it might fill up. No they will go down the street to the next club and have fun there. Why do you think promotors of the clubs are so important? Same concept applies a lot of places. None of these developers woke up one day and said "Ohh, I'm gonna go and make a cachecard".. No, unless there were people that sparked his interest he would have never done it...

Feel free to use expert forum and there you could complain regarding keeping the newbies away.

Again, you don't read the board so you don't realize what a big turn-off the redundant newbie garbage is when it gets in the way of actual development. A lot of good developers leave for that very reason. Why do you think TCF sucks so much? They stopped serving the developers' interests. The only "Tivo hacking" discussions left at TCF are instructions on adding a larger hard drive. Alienate the developers and that will be DDB's future too.

Maintaining a high S/N for the developers is critical. If you don't believe me because you think I'm a j3rk, fine, ask some other developers because I'm not the only one.

Would you need a new server if there were only "10-20 developers" participating? Why do you think this site is so expensive to run? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that there are thousands of newbies taxing your resources? They are the source of your problems. If this board were for development only (something I am not advocating, there should be a newbie forum which they subsidize and where they post all of their questions), it could be run on a $5/month web hosting account, and yes that would include custom avatars and custom user titles. :D

What the heck are you talking about?

I have a new avatar lined up which is very much not a toilet. :D

tiivohoe

01-14-2004, 02:04 PM

Dave,
Why dont you just host this "developers" board yourself? You would only need maybe, 200-300 gig of space! :D

Vadim

01-14-2004, 02:09 PM

No, you need like 20mb of space and that is not a joke.
I think you ment to say mb not gigs.
This database's data for this forum takes up like 500mb of space, so developers only shouldn't exceed 20mb. Guranteed.

Dave,
Why dont you just host this "developers" board yourself? You would only need maybe, 200-300 gig of space! :D

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 02:12 PM

Vadim: any consideration on re-arranging the layout? I think a lot of people agree that the current one is a bit painful.

Vadim

01-14-2004, 02:15 PM

Vadim: any consideration on re-arranging the layout? I think a lot of people agree that the current one is a bit painful.
Yes, 100% will be changed.. You mean the way the forums are named?

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 02:17 PM

Yes, 100% will be changed.. You mean the way the forums are named?

Both name and order (especially the bit about moving the newbie forum to the top of the list, and combining the SA/Dtivo forums into one, just keeping the S1/S2 separate)

David Bought

01-14-2004, 02:20 PM

So basically you want to just close this forum for the 20 developers and run it on a $5 hosting account?

Wrong, reread my message and you will see that I am proposing the exact opposite. All I'm asking for is a little separation, because allowing the newbie posts everywhere as you have done has made the board a very disorganized place.

If you are not taking advantage of it, that is not my fault. If you notice, no one except experts posts there!

It is not my fault that most of the expert/development posts are not in the expert forum. The current expert forum contains only a small sliver of the actual development that happens here.

If you and the mods arranged the board in such a manner that we could ignore all of the newbie posts when we searched and browsed, everybody would be a lot happier. That is not possible with the present arrangement.

David, Do me a favor. Think logically,

Consider it done, if you do me a favor and actually read my replies.

Vadim

01-14-2004, 02:27 PM

I will separate! I promise that. I'll ask the mods for help with moving posts to the right places.
Give me a few days to figure this out.

Wrong, reread my message and you will see that I am proposing the exact opposite. All I'm asking for is a little separation, because allowing the newbie posts everywhere as you have done has made the board a very disorganized place.

It is not my fault that most of the expert/development posts are not in the expert forum. The current expert forum contains only a small sliver of the actual development that happens here.

If you and the mods arranged the board in such a manner that we could ignore all of the newbie posts when we searched and browsed, everybody would be a lot happier. That is not possible with the present arrangement.

Consider it done, if you do me a favor and actually read my replies.

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 02:31 PM

While we are on the subject of change, I think I want to point something out:

I may have inadvertantly invented a new way of keeping information concise and in one spot. If you notice in this thread (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31213), I keep track of all posts within that thread and keep the "original post" up to date based on new information as it comes along. I think this may eliminate half of the unnecessary posts out there. It'll certainly reduce the need for "sifting" at least.

Only problems with it are this:

5000 byte post limit
Only one person can modify the post (if he leaves for a while, or if there are multiple developers, that can be a problem)

I think maybe I am on to something here, but dunno. Anybody else have any ideas?

MoneyMark

01-14-2004, 02:36 PM

I like the sound of the proposed changes. I also believe the site would benefit from a section entitiled RULES! Place this at the very top, directly above the newbie area and it should attract more attention. Once a newbie is inside of a forum section they are simply going to start looking for what catches their eye. I'm not saying this will force people to read the rules but you may have more luck in tricking them into it.

It was also mentioned that flaming would not be tolerated in the newbie section. I hope this rule applies to all of DDB.

I also suggest considering a general hacks section for hacks which are cross platform. Also, under the S1 and S2 hacking sections there could be subsections which are designated for specific SA or DTivo questions. This should help divide the subject matter into in an organized manner, while making the forum much more intuitive to those who are new to the board.

What do you guys think?

MoneyMark

splitsec

01-14-2004, 02:44 PM

Perhaps some of the more seasoned members (David?) would be willing to invest some time cleaning up some of the "stickies". I know I would be willing to invest some time doing it, if there was a way for me to do so.

In reading some of the stickies it is possible to become confused. Heck, look at the TivoWebPlus thread, the first post is updated when we do a new release of the TWP install, but the third message says that the first message is flawed (it was when it was first posted). This is common in the sticky threads as when something is originally posted it is usually a question or a first shot at fixing something, which inevitably causes responses, and corrections, and sometimes inaccurate conjecture in relations to the post.

I don't think that most of the "sticky" threads would require more than 10 or so posts to impart the information to the users (read: noobies) and if they did so they would drastically cut down on the number of clueless posts. (if we just confuse the new members, they will end up posting a question that we know is answered...)

This is what most of the numerous "guides" out there are trying to do, and of course there is more than one way to skin most of the things we are hacking on our Tivo(s), so this will not be an easy task, nor one without some bumps along the road.

I don't know what features of the board can be used to help this process, can certain threads be locked down to a limited set of users? Should the sticky threads all be "closed" and then temporarily re-opened when they need to be updaed?

It also sounds like a good idea to me that the expert forum be locked to users for at least a month prior to being able to post in them (or maybe 20 posts or something), and a user should be able to loose his "right" to post to that forum without being banned from the whole board. This might be an administrative nightmare, depending upon how the admin tools are setup (I haven't seen them).

Just my $0.02,

Split

PS. I'd like the custom user titles as well. Don't really care about the avatars as I usually shut them off on any boards where they are larger than they are here as they tend to distract from the content as much as the newbie posts. ;)

splitsec

01-14-2004, 02:47 PM

splitsec

01-14-2004, 02:52 PM

I just re-read some of the last messages, and I think that gist that some of us are trying to get to is that if we make it easier on the newbies, it will in the long run make it easier on us.

When we make things difficult to understand in our threads (do to incomplete, or contradicting posts) it makes the newbies HAVE to post to clarify the situation.

Split

RUBiK

01-14-2004, 03:05 PM

Only problems with it are this:

5000 byte post limit
Only one person can modify the post (if he leaves for a while, or if there are multiple developers, that can be a problem)

I think maybe I am on to something here, but dunno. Anybody else have any ideas?Knowing vBulletin inside out, I'll chime in here real quick...

The 5000 bytes/post limt is set in the admincp and can be bumped up (or set to 0 to disable). I'm sure Vadim knows this, but perhaps he will consider bumping it up a bit if that's something that's really limiting some of you.

As for the 2nd limitation, there's no way around that, really. Other than original poster, only admins/mods will be able to edit/append, but people can always ask an admin/mod to do so in one such thread (as the kind you mention) as needed.

MoneyMark

01-14-2004, 03:13 PM

Knowing vBulletin inside out, I'll chime in here real quick...

The 5000 bytes/post limt is set in the admincp and can be bumped up (or set to 0 to disable). I'm sure Vadim knows this, but perhaps he will consider bumping it up a bit if that's something that's really limiting some of you.

As for the 2nd limitation, there's no way around that, really. Other than original poster, only admins/mods will be able to edit/append, but people can always ask an admin/mod to do so in one such thread (as the kind you mention) as needed.

I believe one solution would be to double post at the beginning of a new thread. The first post could be designated as the current release post and the following post could be designated as the beginning of the topic. All posts following the release post would then simply be in chronological order.

Also, no comments on my other suggestions from before?

MoneyMark

mrblack51

01-14-2004, 03:17 PM

in response to some suggestions and comments from various people:

banning for posting in the wrong areas - i would say no overall to this, on the first offense. assumign the limits below were used, i would say that the first offense would result in a pm from the mod who moved the thread indicating the issue with a canned response. second offense would result in 1 day in the penalty box with a pm regarding why, third a week with pm, and fourth would be permanent lockout from either that forum or all but possibly the newbie forum, or until the user proves they have learned their lesson.

stickies - yes, they need to be pruned. in general, the big problem is that discussion gets posted in the sticky threads, which clutters stuff up. My thought is that sticky threads need to stay short, to the point, and up to date. yes, this means work for the original posters or the moderators. If there is any question of whether a sticky needs to have an associated question/support thread, that thread should be linked from the sticky, preventing bad info. also, if certain posts contain valuable info on workarounds or bugfixes, those posts should be noted and linked from the sticky so people can read associated posts.

guides - as some of you may have read, I do have a firm stance on guides. currently, there are upwards of 5 guides on monte in various places on the board. are they really different? no. in fact, all are essentially identical, except for how they deal with reffering to various hard drives and reffering to certain support "packages". this sort of thing needs to be eliminated. we have an expectation of basic PC knowledge at this forum. if people dont have it, then they can go get that knowledge somewhere else or post in the newbie forum for assistance beyond the guide. guides should not spoonfeed, and should contain links to pertinant information.

if people want to post all kinds of non-compliant guides to the newbie area, no biggie, but the ones which are "endorsed" by being stickied should be standardized

posting limits - in order to assist the moderators, and to help the new users as well, I propose the following limits:
users with less than 5 posts must post to newbie area
users with less than 10 posts can post in the newbie or s1/s2/extraction area
to post in the experts area, either users must be granted "write access" individually or have 20 posts.

if at all possible, these posting limits should only take into account posts in the hacking areas of the board (ie: people who have 500 posts in the for sale area or chit chat shouldnt have access to the experts area if they have posted 0 hacking related posts)

I realize that hard limits such as that always have detractors, but its simple enough for mods (if given the power and opportunity) to move posts to the appropriate place if they are better, and to grant access to certain areas sooner based on merit or whatnot. if you look at most of the post moving which the mods have to do, its people with less than 10 posts under their belt. by doing this, we confine basic questions to the area where they belong and can promote up and move out, rather than having to constantly move posts out of the various areas to the newbie area.

one suggestion on the s1/s2 area descriptions - in the s1 description, at the end, put "All tivos without USB ports on the back are series 1 units". similarly, for the s2 description, something like "all tivos with USB ports are series 2 units". as that is the easiest way for anyone to tell them apart, it might help...course, that assumes people read the descriptions.

while its not perfect, i will say that i am in favor of the layout that alphawolf posted. newbies have their place, but we need to ensure that this board doesnt collapse into the shambles that TCF's "underground" has become. we are the premiere public tivo development board, and embracing the true devs while still allowing new people into the hobby is something that needs to be addressed.

mrblack51

01-14-2004, 03:19 PM

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 03:44 PM

can that limit be set on a per user, or per class basis? ie: proven developers, mods, and admins get that limit disabled, but limit stays for regular users?

What would be nice, is if the first post in a given thread could have no limit.

users with less than 5 posts must post to newbie area
users with less than 10 posts can post in the newbie or s1/s2/extraction area

I otherwise think this is a perfect move, but only one problem: potential developers coming here for the first time may get annoyed with having to make 5 posts before they can do anything else. Perhapse there should be some kind of system whereas if a moderator moves their post from the newbies forum to another forum, they immediately gain the privilege to post into that forum? Either that or make it 2 or 3 posts before you can graduate beyond the newbie forum.

we are the premiere public tivo development board

DAMN STRAIGHT! Quite frankly, nobody else even comes near us.

mrblack51

01-14-2004, 03:50 PM

I otherwise think this is a perfect move, but only one problem: potential developers coming here for the first time may get annoyed with having to make 5 posts before they can do anything else. Perhapse there should be some kind of system whereas if a moderator moves their post from the newbies forum to another forum, they immediately gain the privilege to post into that forum? Either that or make it 2 or 3 posts before you can graduate beyond the newbie forum.

thats why i suggested that the mods should be able to unlock selectively, if possible. clearly, someone like MuscleNerd has a clear understanding of things and has proven himself elsewhere. Possibly, the standard should be posted with a note stating that "if you are a developer, pm X,Y, or Z" to request early access. it would surely be abused by newbies, but its worth a shot.

while some devs might be annoyed, if they post something good in the newbie area, it should be clear that they deserve to be moved out sooner...selective early promotion. what you are suggesting is essentially what i suggested, but yours was more on a forum by forum basis, rather than a judgement call

BubbleLamp

01-14-2004, 03:57 PM

Oh, BTW vadim, fwiw, mrblack51 and I were discussing that layout I mentioned earlier, and we kind of agreed on this:

hack development forum (expert forum renamed...basically hack forum with zero support requests, give moderator privileges to those who are seasoned developers and longtime members. Only posts about theorising possible hacks, technical structure of the tivos, or hacks that are works in progress and don't necessarily give any usefull results yet)

How do you presume to determine who gets mods privileges? We already have overly aggressive moderation at times. Do you really think granting a bunch of headstrong developers mod rights makes sense??

BTW, the reason for merging SA and Dtivo is b/c the differences between the two that existed in the old days of hacking aren't really there anymore with the release of the newer software versions.

There would still need to be a way to deal with SA vs DTivo somehow, otherwise you'll create a lot of confusion.

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 04:01 PM

BubbleLamp

01-14-2004, 04:04 PM

Would you need a new server if there were only "10-20 developers" participating? Why do you think this site is so expensive to run? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that there are thousands of newbies taxing your resources? They are the source of your problems. If this board were for development only (something I am not advocating, there should be a newbie forum which they subsidize and where they post all of their questions), it could be run on a $5/month web hosting account, and yes that would include custom avatars and custom user titles. :D

Isn't the alt.org site for developers only? Wasn't that the whole reason it was setup? Why does this board have to be developer-centric as well? If the developers are so upset with this place, why are they so insistent on staying here? And who are they anyway?

JJBliss

01-14-2004, 04:05 PM

thats why i suggested that the mods should be able to unlock selectively, if possible. clearly, someone like MuscleNerd has a clear understanding of things and has proven himself elsewhere. Possibly, the standard should be posted with a note stating that "if you are a developer, pm X,Y, or Z" to request early access. it would surely be abused by newbies, but its worth a shot.

I'm all sorts of happy with this suggestion. This is indeed a public forum, and the registration process is mostly automated. However, the idea of restricting write access to certain forums (topics and names to be determined later) is a great idea.

A user registered via the automated process will only have write acess to newbie'esque forums, but read access to everything (much like an unregistered user, but with limited write privs). I would be happy to get PM's from folks who think they deserve access to the remainder of the forums, though I would be on the lookout for those who HAVEN'T asked, but would be good contributors as well.

I'm sure that Vadim, KRavEN, mrblack51, RC3105, jdiner and I are more then capable (alone or collectively) of deciding who should have write access once they've proven themselves, their skills, or their participation in the community.

There's nothing wrong with asking permission to post, unless you've been recognized by a mod/admin. I am quite sure that there will be stand out performers in the newbie areas that any mod or admin would be tickled to get involved in the other forums.

Aside from moving Newbies to the top of the list of forums, and locking the non-newbie areas until the user gets "promoted", I also recommend the collapse of the SA S1 and SA S2 forums back to merely S1 and S2 along with my previous recommendations regarding subject line convention shown here (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137840&postcount=26).

With these simple modifications, many of the aforementioned suggestions become extraneous. With the proper people posting in the proper forum, many of the other issues will straighten themselves out.

David Bought

01-14-2004, 04:06 PM

I otherwise think this is a perfect move, but only one problem: potential developers coming here for the first time may get annoyed with having to make 5 posts before they can do anything else.

Actually, as you may recall, we've had a couple of these guys, one of which registered about a month ago. He immediately got on his high horse and started criticizing certain Tivo developers, despite having never produced a single Tivo hack in his life. He also demanded that the forum be reorganized to meet his needs, but refused to put any effort at all into consolidating information. He came here with the attitude of, "you're all stupid and I'm always right." That is no way to treat the TIVO GODs.

The fact of the matter is, we don't care how big his ego is or how many non-Tivo hacks he has produced, he is still a n00b here until proven otherwise. Respect is earned not handed out based on your 1337 attitude. "Developers" who come here and expect the rest of us to kiss their asses as they sit back and contribute nothing can sit and rot in the NEWBIE area, because we don't need their bullshit.

Vadim

01-14-2004, 08:24 PM

I'll have to take a look at that... It might be editable by usergroups but then we would need to put users in different groups.

can that limit be set on a per user, or per class basis? ie: proven developers, mods, and admins get that limit disabled, but limit stays for regular users?

BubbleLamp

01-14-2004, 08:57 PM

Actually, as you may recall, we've had a couple of these guys, one of which registered about a month ago. He immediately got on his high horse and started criticizing certain Tivo developers, despite having never produced a single Tivo hack in his life. He also demanded that the forum be reorganized to meet his needs, but refused to put any effort at all into consolidating information. He came here with the attitude of, "you're all stupid and I'm always right." That is no way to treat the TIVO GODs.

The fact of the matter is, we don't care how big his ego is or how many non-Tivo hacks he has produced, he is still a n00b here until proven otherwise. Respect is earned not handed out based on your 1337 attitude. "Developers" who come here and expect the rest of us to kiss their asses as they sit back and contribute nothing can sit and rot in the NEWBIE area, because we don't need their bullshit.

This is a perfect example of why trying to determine someone's worthiness is a big can of worms. Someone who can code in 12 different languages and eats machine code for a living will be crapped on here because he's just getting into the Tivo. This is elitest and WRONG! It points to the big egoes that already exist here, and their failure to recognize new talent. This kind of attitude is at least as harmful to gaining new talent as any amount of Newbie traffic.

BubbleLamp

01-14-2004, 08:59 PM

captain_video

01-14-2004, 09:24 PM

I'm leaning towards the notion of having a probationary period for all newbies. Let them wait a couple of weeks after joining before they're allowed to post. This forum has gained enough notariety that anyone wanting to come here can surely wait that long before they start putting their 2 cents in. That will give them plenty of time to peruse the forums and get used to the layout as well as do a lot of reading about the basics before they start asking questions. I think this might cut down on the "I just bought my new Tivo 20 minutes ago and I want you to show me how to hack it" type of posts.

It might also not be a bad idea to have the forum rules and policies, whatever they turn out to be, in the registration section that any new member has to read and acknowledge that they have read them before they are accepted for membership. I know most of them will just check the box and not read them but perhaps if it was emblazoned in big bold letters that any infractions would be dealt with swiftly and severely then they might give it a 2nd thought. Sending a copy of the rules and regs along with the e-mail confirmation as reinforcement couldn't hurt either.

I know these ideas might seem somewhat lame but any and all newcomers need to be made aware of how the forum operates before they take the plunge. At least when they get dinged for a violation you can let them know that they were given the rules ahead of time so there's no excuse for not abiding by them. Perhaps including a "Newbie Starter Kit" with their enrollment confirmation would be of some service. This could include a layout of the forum and what goes where, tips on using the search feature, where the How Tos are located, advice on searching for newbie answers with a list of keywords to get started with, etc.

David Bought

01-14-2004, 09:27 PM

It's getting deep in here folks, hope you've got your boots on. :D

How do you presume to determine who gets mods privileges? We already have overly aggressive moderation at times. Do you really think granting a bunch of headstrong developers mod rights makes sense??

1) I'm really sorry you got banned for threatening to post personal information about the DDB staff. Grow the hell up and get over it. It's not the moderators' fault that you act like a 14 year old who is pissed off about his curfew.

2) Mod privileges should be earned by people who have advanced the hobby. In case you can't read between the lines, that means, "not people like you". End users are a dime a dozen.

There would still need to be a way to deal with SA vs DTivo somehow, otherwise you'll create a lot of confusion.

Agreed, this should be noted in the hack description. No read -> no clue -> no post anymore.

Why does this board have to be developer-centric as well? If the developers are so upset with this place, why are they so insistent on staying here?

Separating the noise (like your posts) from the signal (like developers' posts) benefits everybody. This is not a developer centric policy.

This is a perfect example of why trying to determine someone's
worthiness is a big can of worms. Someone who can code in 12 different
languages and eats machine code for a living will be crapped on here
because he's just getting into the Tivo.

Wrong. Nobody gets crapped on unless they deserve it. And they deserve it by arriving with an attitude that doesn't match their level of Tivo hacking expertise. What part of that are you having trouble understanding? It's the same everywhere: when you are new you must read, lurk, and earn respect. Somebody smart enough to be a potential asset already knows this.

BubbleLamp

01-14-2004, 09:37 PM

2) Mod privileges should be earned by people who have advanced the hobby. We're all still waiting for proof you are advancing it. Until then, you're just like everyone else here.

Separating the noise (like your posts) from the signal (like developers' posts) benefits everybody. This is not a developer centric policy. Who died and left you to determine if mine or anyone elses posts are noise? Maybe you need to re-read Vadim's first two posts.

AlphaWolf

01-14-2004, 09:40 PM

How do you presume to determine who gets mods privileges? We already have overly aggressive moderation at times. Do you really think granting a bunch of headstrong developers mod rights makes sense??

Well, as it currently is, hardly anybody visits the experts forum. I don't think the average person would complain too much if we added more moderation there. At least if we did this, that forum would become more useful.

There would still need to be a way to deal with SA vs DTivo somehow, otherwise you'll create a lot of confusion.

From a hacking perspective, the differences are very neglegible these days because of so many recent advances in the software. Pretty much the only important difference nowadays is that the S1 SA tivos don't encrypt tystreams, whereas S1 DT does.

David Bought

01-14-2004, 09:56 PM

We're all still waiting for proof you are advancing it. Until then, you're just like everyone else here.

The proof is in my posting history. Read it. There's more useful information in 10 of my posts than in 2937 of yours. I've posted patch offsets, detailed problem solving advice, and taught people how to research and learn. You have posted non technical things which belong in non technical areas so that they can be ignored when users are looking for actual raw information.

Who died and left you to determine if mine or anyone elses posts are noise?

Your posts have nothing to do with Tivo development and thus do not advance the hobby. You have never created anything new or posted information that was not obvious. Don't get me wrong, some may find value in your posts, but even more people will find value in removing posts like yours from their search results.

From a hacking perspective, the differences are very neglegible these days because of so many recent advances in the software. Pretty much the only important difference nowadays is that the S1 SA tivos don't encrypt tystreams, whereas S1 DT does.

What you're forgetting is that some people came here for the sole purpose of learning how to steal service on their Dtivo. You can usually spot those types of users by looking at their first few posts to see if they were obsessed with access cards and zero knowledge proofs. :D

If you run into a person like that in your travels, you will probably find that they are very interested in illegal things that do not pertain to SAs, and therefore want a strict separation in the forums. Fortunately this board is no longer a haven for that sort of activity so that behavior is becoming less common.

JJBliss

01-14-2004, 10:11 PM

How do you presume to determine who gets mods privileges? We already have overly aggressive moderation at times. Do you really think granting a bunch of headstrong developers mod rights makes sense??

First off, Vadim gets to determine who gets mod privileges, but I already know the answer to that. The mods in charge today get mod privileges, and you can continue to second guess them all you like. Spend some time on other forums with similar OR different topics, and you'll soon see the moderation HERE is far from aggressive. Your continued participation is indicative of that. We are lenient here. There are many forums where your dissent would have been grounds for a permanent ban.

You are a conspiracy theorist, at minimum and a rablerouser at best.

There would still need to be a way to deal with SA vs DTivo somehow, otherwise you'll create a lot of confusion.

No there doesn't. There is not substantive enough difference in the code base to warrant separate forums. Aside from the difficulty to effectively monitor, it is unwarranted and confusing. See, this is why you're not a moderator.

Sleeper

01-14-2004, 10:22 PM

There seems to be a lot of good suggestion here about how to deal with the noobs and better organize the board.

I suggest that the first and most important rule be: No demeaning, ridiculing, disrespectful, deragatory or inflamatory posts.

Penalties for violating this rule should be severe.

If you don't like what someone has to say or you can not temper yourself to post according to this rule, then do not post.

The biggest problem on this board is not the noobs posting or the organization of content. It is the lack of courtesy and respect

Not only does this problem drive the noobs away, it also drives experienced and potential developers away.

Also, the notion of "If you don't like what I have to say then use the ignore button" should not be necessary to filter out "distasteful" posts. Those types of posts should not be allowed in the first place.

You can rearrange threads and classifiy users all you like, but until you address the issue many people will continue to leave this community and others will be reluctant to come here.

David Bought

01-14-2004, 10:41 PM

I suggest that the first and most important rule be: No demeaning, ridiculing, disrespectful, deragatory or inflamatory posts.

That's already a rule and it's already strongly enforced. Wake up and smell the bans.

captain_video

01-14-2004, 11:00 PM

I've got the perfect solution to the whole mess. I say we all go elsewhere and leave DB in charge all by his lonesome. After all, he feels that he's the only one worthy of posting anything here and with the rest of us gone there'd be no more newbies for him to flame. It's a win-win situation for everyone!

vu2vu

01-14-2004, 11:07 PM

Vadim,

I have a suggestion that might solve our problems. I have noticed that some forums have started to install a rate this thread checkbox. Fatwallet is a good example of one. If we could have the something like that here that would be great. Any registered user of the forum could rate the value of a post, and maybe the poster could earn some points for good posts. This way when the mods are thinking about bumping someone to the Experts forum they could have at least some input from the everyone on the board without having to ask. I think this would be a better solution than bumping users up on the basis of how many posts they have.

fixn278

01-14-2004, 11:17 PM

Vadim,

I have a suggestion that might solve our problems. I have noticed that some forums have started to install a rate this thread checkbox.

Look up. It's built into vBulletin.

David Bought

01-14-2004, 11:20 PM

I have noticed that some forums have started to install a rate this thread checkbox.

We already have this feature and it is useless. The majority of users on this board are unable to rate a thread on the basis of technical merit, which is what is necessary to learn. Handouts will rate high, and raw information will rate low.

I've got the perfect solution to the whole mess.

Me too: attack the argument, not the poster. Quit picking fights NOW or you will regret it.

Will

01-14-2004, 11:43 PM

Change whatever you want. But I would strongly urge you to really give some thought to whether the damned thing might be working pretty well as is, and that drastic changes maybe should be made cautiously.

Yes, the thing is an unwieldy mess (much like life), and if there are simple, clean things you can do administratively to help, sure. But the information is all there; research/sifting/skim reading skills are very valuable things to develop and that is the answer rather than expecting the forum owner to come up with some magic structure that spoon feeds the good stuff.

For example, seeing the same concept expressed several different times is not necessarily a bad thing. Let's face it, most of us have the communication skills of a broken clock and what seems crystal clear as we're writing it makes no sense at all to most users. But after two or three passes at seeing different approaches to the concept, a lightbulb clicks on. From the other angle, developers sometimes forget that what they develop is like a tree falling in the forest if users can't understand or use what they develop. Exposure to newbie "stupidity" may be educational and in any case it's rarely fatal.

New users are the lifeblood. One in a hundred of those stupid newbie questions really makes you stop and re-think. Another one in a hundred, or one in a thousand, becomes a master someday, replacing and surpassing the achievements of the burnouts.

Don't over-react to the provocation. You've done a good job with this.

Edited to add: I'm saying the above (obviously, I hope) not in response to your intended new rules that you started this thread with, but in reaction to the stuff from the individual at the root of all this, and even some of the suggestions in this thread from responsible members.

RUBiK

01-14-2004, 11:49 PM

can that limit be set on a per user, or per class basis? ie: proven developers, mods, and admins get that limit disabled, but limit stays for regular users?Unfortunately, no.. it's a global forum setting but if it's that big a deal, I suggest bumping it up to 10000 or simply leaving it as 0 (i.e. no limit) and deal with people whose posts are "way too long" (if any.. but honestly, I'm not sure who would abuse that but perhaps I'm too naive and/or missed something in the recent past, etc.)

Sleeper

01-15-2004, 12:08 AM

captain_video

01-15-2004, 12:10 AM

Me too: attack the argument, not the poster. Quit picking fights NOW or you will regret it.

I attacked no one. I just made a simple observation based on the facts. It was clearly made in jest so learn to take a joke and get over it. Making threats serves no one. The argument is that Vadim has set down a baseline for new rules. Read them and learn to live by them like the rest of us. Finally understand that HE makes the rules, NOT you.

Sleeper

01-15-2004, 12:13 AM

That's already a rule and it's already strongly enforced. Wake up and smell the bans.

Apparently, you and I differ in our opinion of "strongly" enforced and in our definitions of demeaning, deragatory, inflamatory, disrespectful and ridiculing. Also, I left out sarcastic. You're messsage has the same impact without it:

Wake up and smell the bans

GREEK

01-15-2004, 12:14 AM

I think the 2 main concerns for me is the amount of clutter in stickys and the newbies. Yes its annoying as hell to answer the obvious, but somehow I see us ALL doing it one time or another. I personally trolled here and other forums for months/years before ever posting, only because I learned search tools early on. 95% of the new guys dont even know their options available. I agree to restrict the posting of newb's and some sort of check in list, possibly having to check off listing the main rules seperately upon agreement. The stickys need to be revised and cleaned up, thats why so many noobs post instead of searching, it takes effort to wade through all the follow ups, and its easier for them to just post. It may help to add more moderators who have privilages only in one section, in addition to the mods we have now. The members will definitely not all agree with a unanimous plan, but there have been excellent points and suggestions made so far. Thank you for your hosting efforts Vadim..............

JJBliss

01-15-2004, 12:18 AM

You know, there's a better then average chance that this thread is going to piss Vadim off as much as the one about David Bought being banned did.

I think Vadim's post was meant to be informational, and not spur a new flurry of flames and posturing.

I know he asked for suggestions, but the lion's share of the posts in this thread have NOTHING to do with suggestions, but are personal attacks on each other.

I'm just warning you folks.

rc3105

01-15-2004, 12:33 AM

Dave,
Why dont you just host this "developers" board yourself? You would only need maybe, 200-300 gig of space! :D

that board allready exists. once in a while some of the fun stuff over there trickles back here ;)

rc3105

01-15-2004, 12:39 AM

While we are on the subject of change, I think I want to point something out:

I may have inadvertantly invented a new way of keeping information concise and in one spot...

you mean the way the mfs_ftp, tystudio & scrambling issues threads have been managed since last year? :p (is your last name edison by any chance?)

malfunct

01-15-2004, 12:42 AM

posting limits - in order to assist the moderators, and to help the new users as well, I propose the following limits:
users with less than 5 posts must post to newbie area
users with less than 10 posts can post in the newbie or s1/s2/extraction area
to post in the experts area, either users must be granted "write access" individually or have 20 posts.

I don't know that post number limits are going to be much good in determining who has the ability to post in which forum. For instance I'm very close, if not over, the 20 post limit and I do not feel qualified to post in the experts forum. About all I'm good for is answering the newbie questions that get posted over and over. I guess my only point is there needs to be some sort of subjective measure of skill/worth to a particular forum before write permission is given.

It also might be good to have a newbie section that mirrors each other section, open write to everyone in the newbie areas to ask questions and have random discussion, but give true experts in that area access to the higher level thread. It would be awesome if I could look in an expert extraction forum for the "word" from JDiner on tytool, but have people ask questions and discuss in a more open newbie/non-technical thread.

Pretty much the big issue seems to be an easy way to separate the important stuff from the non-important stuff. Its too bad the forum doesn't support a way for the thread owner to promote a post (or part of a post) from the discussion section to an information section.

vu2vu

01-15-2004, 01:00 AM

Yea I noticed that a while back. Fatwallet takes it one step further. You can rate invidual posts. Each individual post has its own - x + checkboxes. Giving ratings according to thread is not a good idea. Someone could post for a handout and couple posts down someone else gives them the handout.

As for the majority of users unable to rate a thread, thats where the mod comes in. It would make it much easier for he or she to do a search for people with the top rating and then proceed to figure out which ones to bump up.

We already have this feature and it is useless. The majority of users on this board are unable to rate a thread on the basis of technical merit, which is what is necessary to learn. Handouts will rate high, and raw information will rate low.

Me too: attack the argument, not the poster. Quit picking fights NOW or you will regret it.

Vadim

01-15-2004, 01:44 AM

Here is my proposal!
One of these days those that want to participate in this discussion will join a certain irc channel (time/date/server/channel TBA) and we discuss this there. I'll sit down with paper and a pencil and record some of your ideas for proposed changes.. I'll have an outline ready, such as what should we name the categories, what should we add or change.. We'll discuss this newbie issue and any other thing you want to discuss. So write down everything you want to talk about, such as post size limit, stickies and whatever you want. I'll do my best to answer all of the questions.

How about that?

mrblack51

01-15-2004, 01:52 AM

Aye.

BTW, so far as which hacks should be allowed and which shouldn't, I think there should be one rule: "Don't break the law." That "free speech" rule is the reason that DDB has been so successful in the past, whereas TCF religiously follows the "cult of tivo" conduct that limits what hacks they can have. I don't own a standalone tivo myself, but I believe there are legitimate reasons for loading guide data to those even (e.g. canada/mexico users, missing ppv guide data, etc.)

i agree, and thats why the mods have been enforcing the rules as "no service theft". as stated, there are hacks which are borderline, but so long as they have legitimate uses, they are allowed. some hu enabling was allowed in the past because at the time, 3.1 was a new frontier for explorers and most didnt have p4 cards yet, but that time is past so HU hacks have no use whatsoever, and have never had legitimate purpose on the s2 units. the generation of your own guide data in the same way that tivocanada does is a perfectly legit thing. stealing tivo's slices by faking serial numbers or mirroring them to other units is theft though, hence why it was disallowed.

David Bought

01-15-2004, 11:53 AM

For example, seeing the same concept expressed several different times is not necessarily a bad thing. Let's face it, most of us have the communication skills of a broken clock and what seems crystal clear as we're writing it makes no sense at all to most users. But after two or three passes at seeing different approaches to the concept, a lightbulb clicks on. From the other angle, developers sometimes forget that what they develop is like a tree falling in the forest if users can't understand or use what they develop. Exposure to newbie "stupidity" may be educational and in any case it's rarely fatal.

Okay, let's summarize this exchange:

Me: I want the NEWBIE posts to be separated into specific NEWBIE forum(s) instead of mixed in with development, because when I search for something I'm tired of seeing 500 useless NEWBIE results. It's like finding a needle in a haystack and it's only gotten worse as the board has grown.

You: NO! NO! WE WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING! You WILL read the newbie shit when you're looking for good info, and you're gonna like it!

How DARE you decide what's right for us? You are not a developer and you know NOTHING about our needs. You have NO right to decide that we should have no option but to sift through thousands of redundant posts because there "might" be something good in there.

There is NO reason why users here should not have the option to exclude all NEWBIE posts from their search if they deem it necessary.

mrblack51

01-15-2004, 12:49 PM

splitsec

01-15-2004, 01:04 PM

BubbleLamp

01-16-2004, 04:27 AM

I'll have to take a look at that... It might be editable by usergroups but then we would need to put users in different groups.

It's a global setting AFAIK, but maybe something can be done with some custom PHP routine. It might be worth checking the Jelsoft support forum about this.

NutKase

01-16-2004, 12:22 PM

Here is my proposal!
One of these days those that want to participate in this discussion will join a certain irc channel (time/date/server/channel TBA) and we discuss this there.

Dude, I suggested that 'LAST' (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136522&postcount=8) year. <--meant in total humor :)

NutKase

AlphaWolf

01-16-2004, 12:48 PM

Dude, I suggested that 'LAST' (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136522&postcount=8) year. <--meant in total humor :)

NutKase

But vadim planned it the year before (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47152&postcount=7) :P

Vadim

01-16-2004, 06:44 PM

Somebody knows how to use the search button :)
Yeah I want to run IRC server on the new server..
I'm still debating which day is a good day to do the chat.
How about monday or tuesday night? Around 8:00pm EST?

But vadim planned it the year before (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47152&postcount=7) :P

khig

01-16-2004, 06:49 PM

Okay, let's summarize this exchange:

Me: I want the NEWBIE posts to be separated into specific NEWBIE forum(s) instead of mixed in with development, because when I search for something I'm tired of seeing 500 useless NEWBIE results. It's like finding a needle in a haystack and it's only gotten worse as the board has grown.

.

As a newbie myself, I understand what Mr. Bought is getting at here. I know you've got to read here, but when you get the results like Mr. Bought shows, it takes a long time to read and figure out what's good and what's trash.

With that in mind, here's my newbie suggestion. Add a feature to the search that will limit the results to members with X number of posts or higher. That should cut the number of results down to something more useful.

AlphaWolf

01-16-2004, 06:49 PM

How about monday or tuesday night? Around 8:00pm EST?

The weekend would be best for me, as on monday and tuesday I have to go to traffic school at that time for my first ticket ever. (got cought making a left turn on a yellow arrow by one of those photo thingies in spite of the fact that the intersection was littered with cops who were already handling an accident investigation, and not one of them even thought twice about coming after me...fortunately they will throw out the ticket and add no points to my license since this is my first time)

BubbleLamp

01-16-2004, 07:05 PM

With that in mind, here's my newbie suggestion. Add a feature to the search that will limit the results to members with X number of posts or higher. That should cut the number of results down to something more useful. Good idea, but not possible in vBulletin without some custom coding.

JJBliss

01-16-2004, 07:07 PM

khig

01-16-2004, 07:47 PM

Good idea, but not possible in vBulletin without some custom coding.

Well........are there programmers here or not? :D

mrblack51

01-16-2004, 08:14 PM

Somebody knows how to use the search button :)
Yeah I want to run IRC server on the new server..
I'm still debating which day is a good day to do the chat.
How about monday or tuesday night? Around 8:00pm EST?

i can make 8:30pm EST on tuesday, pretty much anytime on monday

AlphaWolf

01-16-2004, 08:27 PM

As a newbie myself, I understand what Mr. Bought is getting at here. I know you've got to read here, but when you get the results like Mr. Bought shows, it takes a long time to read and figure out what's good and what's trash.

With that in mind, here's my newbie suggestion. Add a feature to the search that will limit the results to members with X number of posts or higher. That should cut the number of results down to something more useful.

Well, that wouldn't really work because some people tend to stay stupid even past their 100 post mark (too many names to mention,) and others post very intelligent info even though their post count is low (e.g. PGM.)

MoneyMark

01-16-2004, 09:49 PM

I think the main problem is just how the sections are ordered and described. If these sections are ordered correctly, with a Rules section at the top. followed by the newbie section, people will start going there first. It is simply a human factors issue. Also, there is no explict "Developers" section, it is entitled Experts, which leads people with questions to seek the Experts assistance.

Merging the SA and DTV sections will help as well. I still suggest creating subsections under the new section which is explicitly for SA and DTV units. This should help keep information organized correctly.

There of course will always be confused newbies since it is the inherent nature of a noobie to be confused. We just need to make things as clear as possible to them and watch the problem correct itself.

MoneyMark

splitsec

01-17-2004, 12:09 AM

vu2vu

01-17-2004, 12:19 AM

Vadim,

Just in case I cannot make it to the meeting. Can we setup a linux forum? I know there are a million of them on the net but it would cut down on alot of the clutter if we had a linux forum so people can ask about commands syntax. This is where people can go to learn how to use basic linux commands and how to tame vi.

Vadim

01-17-2004, 01:08 AM

Excellent Idea,
I would love to hear this at a meeting where others can comment on this.

How about hosting 2 meetings? One over the weekend? Sunday in the afternoon and tuesday around 8-8:30.
Hmm Time to do a poll?

Vadim,

Just in case I cannot make it to the meeting. Can we setup a linux forum? I know there are a million of them on the net but it would cut down on alot of the clutter if we had a linux forum so people can ask about commands syntax. This is where people can go to learn how to use basic linux commands and how to tame vi.

David Bought

01-21-2004, 11:19 AM

What happened in the IRC meeting? Can somebody post a log?

NutKase

01-21-2004, 12:44 PM

What happened in the IRC meeting? Can somebody post a log?

I voted in the poll but never saw a time established. If it happened I must've missed it too.

NutKase

cali

01-25-2004, 11:45 AM

First off, a couple of guys need to put their personal issues aside.
DB is brutal in some of his responses but I think 90+% of the time they are correct for the situation.

I have been registered here some quite sometime, and rarely have the need to post. I am no genius coder by any means, I hold my own at times. I have to say I agree 100% in the seperation idea.

I recently started looking into the S2 threads, and it is very very difficult to find excellent info. The information is there but you have to dig through so much shit, it becomes a chore, esp when you spend 8 hrs in front a PC at work, then have to read like a madman at home.

I believe a great way to do this is when a new script/sw etc is released, make it a CLOSED sticky that only the owner or moderator can add to it. Make a seperate thread to discuss it. The original thread gets updated by mod/owner as necessary.

Also, I think the S2/Expert forums need a clear definition of what is allowed in there. I had a post moved to the newbie section, that I put in the S2 section, pertaining to a S2 unit. my searches never revealed the answer so I put in what I "thought" to be the appropriate forum.
Cali