The crackdown begins...

[AlphaWolf]

First let me say that I don't mind when you sell your tivos on ebay. It's your hardware, and you are allowed to do whatever you want with it. But theres a certain line that you should not cross. The "line" I am referring to is when you lie to your customers, and sell hacks that you all but claim as your own, or at least not even bother to mention that you got those hacks for free, where you even got the hacks from, or at the LEAST who wrote the hacks, (because it certainly wasn't you) and then on top of it all, selling them at an outrageous profit margin.

It's come to my attention recently that somebody among us has been outright lying in their ebay auctions in this manner, contributing to the scammer problem that ruins the good names of the members of dealdatabase. To make matters worse, this person is collecting hacks that several of us here on dealdatabase have spent countless hours on developing, and then selling them. Apparently this person has been doing this for a while now; scamming people just like yourself.

The specific auction I am refering to can be found here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3076561880&category=11725), and I am sure that many of you will recognize the name of the seller, who to wit, is using deceptive (read: scamming) phrases like this:


Until recently, it was believed that series 2 DirecTivos could not be hacked


$375 for a tivo...that is earning at least $150 for about 30 minutes of work (if that,) and he is selling numerous ones. If only dealdatabase had money like that, then we could have our new server by now...

To make things worse, the inclusion of directv service theft hacks in this package is only going to make things harder on us.

For the record, I have attached a zipfile containing the origional auction in HTML.

Witnesses testifying to seeing this auction as I have posted it, please reply below.

Nothing personal, but this stuff just plain pisses me off. The regulars of dealdatabase need to unite, and take action against scams like this. More to follow...

[djohn]

Very similar auction to one previously linked to in the FS/FT forum which was followed by editing and lying.

I saw this one with my own two eyes the same as I did the last one.

edit: added a few links, another person passed these on to me, I am just adding them to the post for info.

http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=captain_video
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3076148546&category=11725

We all know that Tivo and DTV do not want to see service theft and extraction hacks become a mass market phenomenon. When they can find dozens of illegally hacked TiVos on eBay with a simple search, they will get upset and they will eventually shut down the perceived source of the problem. That is a grave threat to the survival of this board and this hobby, and we should do what we can to prevent it.

I have not posted anything of value here but I urge software authors to release and re-license their tools under a more restrictive set of conditions to avoid being burned by eBay scammers. Let's call it the DPL: Dealdatabase Public License, and start with a few common sense provisions:

"You may not sell products or services that include any of my code unless you satisfy ALL of these conditions:

You do not advertise it in any public way, including online auction sites, for sale forums, classified ads, etc.

The sale does not involve any service theft hacks, including HU card hacks, noppv hacks, ZKT hacks, tier hacks, or DTV card programming

You clearly inform the buyer that you are not the author of my hacks, and properly give credit where credit is due for all hacks present on the unit, including mine

You clearly inform the buyer that you will handle all support issues and that they are forbidden from seeking support from me

You are selling a full TiVo unit, not a hard drive, CD, or DVD with my software on it



If you violate any of these conditions I may obtain an injunction against you, sue you for damages, file an eBay notice of copyright infringement (http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/vero-rights-owner.html), or take any other action deemed necessary. I hereby authorize any other party to take such an action on my behalf upon witnessing an infringement of this license."

[RUBiK]

Pretty sad and disturbing stuff...

And yeah, haven't we been through this before? With lots of denying/changing stories/etc.?

Not a cool thing to do to some of the kind people donating their time (read: hacks, written code, etc) only to see it bundled up and sold on eBay. I can't imagine how pissed some of the developers feel... *sigh*

[BubbleLamp]

On the other hand, there seems to be plenty of people paying the price. And people come here who clearly state they'd rather pay than do it themselves. I don't endorse it, but given the way some newbies get crapped on lately around here, maybe they see it as a way to get the system they want. :confused: :(

[kaustic]

I can verify that the auction links are as described at the time of this writing.

This member has obviously betrayed the trust of the community that has given him so much over the years. He has profited from your hard work and associated us all with criminal activity, after contributing almost nothing to our collective knowledge.

We need fewer goobs like this here. Hopefully djohn's proposed license will be widely adopted to stop these abuses.

Compatible with Hu series access cards

Noppv hack to allow scheduling of PPV events for recording in advance just like normal shows (you still have to purchase the shows)

It is a brand new unit that was subbed on my personal account for only a couple of weeks so that it could be thoroughly tested

I generally have more series 2 DirecTivos that have been upgraded to the same extent as the model listed above for the same price.

This sounds very dishonest. Between this and the seller's partial ownership of a well known service theft website, it looks like DDB needs to do whatever it can to dissociate itself from this conduct. This user is a sinking ship and he will drag us all down with him if we let him.

[AlphaWolf]

On the other hand, there seems to be plenty of people paying the price. And people come here who clearly state they'd rather pay than do it themselves. I don't endorse it, but given the way some newbies get crapped on lately around here, maybe they see it as a way to get the system they want. :confused: :(

Thats a bit of a gray area, but heres whats not gray: advertising hacks on ebay without any word of where they came from, claiming the hacks as your own, making yourself sound like some kind of official source of these hacks, etc. Thats just downright deceitful and dishonest. At least they could have the decency to admit that they are nothing but a script kiddie and not even anything close to being a hack developer, but they wont even at least hint at that. Not only that but they accept money for code when they don't even have a clue as to how it works.

[BubbleLamp]

I can verify that the auction links are as described at the time of this writing.

This member has obviously betrayed the trust of the community that has given him so much over the years. He has profited from your hard work and associated us all with criminal activity, after contributing almost nothing to our collective knowledge.

We need fewer goobs like this here. Hopefully djohn's proposed license will be widely adopted to stop these abuses.
Someone should see to it folks like weaknees also adopt these rules.

[djohn]

Someone should see to it folks like weaknees also adopt these rules.

Agreed and I can't imagine TiVo's lawyers not doing so after shutting down all the FTP servers where images were publically available.

I mean what is the deal, we can't "pirate" their software but other people "weaknees, ptvupgrade, etc" can openly profit from distributing it as long as it is installed on a drive?

Also, I do actually agree with TiVo shutting down distribution of images. I feel that if you are too damn stupid to not backup your drive and check to make sure that your backup works and maybe even burn a cd of it and take it to your lockbox then you deserve to have a broken tivo when you fruck your drive up because you either didn't research what you were doing enough, did something stupid or stayed up too late and got too tired while trying to finish that one last thing on the tivo and created more problems then you ever dreamed of. Yeah that is a long runon sentence but the point is what counts, we should not need backup images from other sources, our own backup should be sufficient with the exception of unsupported software versions such as 4.0.x but then those unsupported versions are a likely factor of why we have no more FTP servers.

One other thing...Last time I checked Weaknees did not install any hacks what so ever. I don't believe they even help you get bash but I am not positive of that and have never made a purchase there or at PTV.

[FredThompson]

Where are the statements in that ebay listing which claim ownership or authoring of the hacks?

You can be upset about the listing but keep your posts about it accurate.

--revision--

Without seeing the complete package, there's no way to verify lack of proper credit, be it lying through omission or just an oversight.

Remember, "She turned me into a newt."

Yes, promoting the lifetime sub is stupid. There are legitimate reasons to circumvent "calling home" but only if the subscription is paid and the use is in America or Great Britain. In this case, it's being used as an attention grabber and motivation to buy.

Also, some of the other comments are wags, not a good thing to do.

[captain_video]

I didn't realize that I was pissing so many people off here with things that have nothing to do with this forum. Since when did my private life become a public spectacle for your enjoyment? In my defense I never said any of the hacks were my own and have credited the originators whenever possible. I just didn't list the credits in the auction description.

As for the refernce to DTV theft of service, I included a certain hack to allow the use of an older access card because most of the units I modified were not subbed to DTV. The only way I could test them thoroughly was to "test" them so I had to include the hack that enabled the use of said card. Ironically, I procured said hack from a website linked to in the "Official image begging thread" posted by none other than David Bought himself so he is directly responsible for me finding the hack in the first place. The real irony is that he was the first one to lash out at me for posting a link to one of my ebay auctions that listed the hack as one of the included features. Since it obviously stirs up so much controversy here I will be removing the aforementioned hack from any future DTivos I choose to sell.

I worded the auction quite carefully so as not to scam anyone. If you guys had actually taken the time to read the complete auction description carefully (it's quite detailed and explicit) and then weigh my actual costs vs. what I include I think you'll find that I offer quite a deal to those that want the benefits but don't want to take the time to learn how to hack their own Tivo.

The street price of a S2 DTivo is anywhere from $150 to $200 on ebay with no programming commitment. This has been my primary source for DTivos to hack although I have purchased some locally at a Best Buy and had them subbed on my DTV account, primarily so I could get the latest software downloads.
I include a 2nd 120GB hard drive at a cost of about $140 on average.
The hard drive bracket from 9th Tee costs $12.95 plus S&H.
The USB 2.0 ethernet adapter costs $30 from CompUSA.
The serial cable costs $7.00 from 9th Tee plus S&H.
Original software is included on CD and I follow up with links to hacking sites such as DDB and others as well as written tutorials on how to use the hacks. All of the software I provide is freely available to anyone that wishes to download it. If it was copyrighted as one poster suggested I would have never even considered selling a hacked Tivo on ebay or anywhere else.
I personally provide all needed tech support and don't palm off anyone to this site looking for answers if they have problems.
I ship to the buyer at my expense via insured FedEx Home Delivery.
My asking price is much lower than what the real scammers are selling their units for. I also include far more features, extra accessories and software, and above all, the truth about what others are scamming on ebay. That point seems to have eluded everyone here.

Do the math and see if my profit margin is as outrageous as you claim it is. As for anyone taking exception to the wording of my auctions I'll gladly entertain suggestions in a PM as to how you think it should be worded. The statement about S2 Tivos and their hackability was a holdover from a Tivo I sold quite a while back and admittedly is a bit outdated. If you feel that this statement in itself constitutes a scam then I think you're reaching a bit. However, you are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

I spend a whole lot more than 30 minutes hacking these units. I test them for days, if not weeks, to ensure that they function properly and do everything I say they do. I'd like to know exactly what you would consider scamming in my auctions because I divulge everything about what I'm selling up front and honestly. I let each customer know exactly what he or she is paying for before any money changes hands. I've even turned away potential buyers because I wanted them to be able to have the latest software version that's coming down to ensure they don't have any problems or complaints.

Anything that I do outside this board stays outside this board until members bring it to light and draw attention to it. There was nothing publicly posted that said the hacks I installed came from this or any other site. For your information, I have never lied to a customer about what he or she is buying. This whole business about me lying and changing stories was precipitated by a certain member that shall remain nameless when I made a joke about making a change to an ebay item description. Apparently it was taken seriously instead of the manner in which it was implied and I've been branded for it ever since.

And why are there links posted for items that I purchased on ebay? At what point do the villagers rise up with the torches and pitchforks?

[Will]

Al Hodges did chewing gum commercials on TV late in his career, playing a dentist. Very sad.

However, this particular individual is selling Tivos on eBay, packaging hacks for which his eBay audience couldn't even open the readme's. That's a service his superior intelligence (relative to that mob) allows him to offer. I think people on this forum underestimate the market value of intelligence (including their own); it's a question of finding the right market. This individual has found a little niche. Outrageous profit margins are what made America great.

Possibly he already _plans_ to assign a portion of those profits to support this forum, from which they came. That would be admirably enlightened.

As to the unwanted attention wide dissemination of these hacks might bring upon our hobby, I share your regret in that. But our "rights" in this regard are non-existent and non-enforcable.

[FredThompson]

As to the unwanted attention wide dissemination of these hacks might bring upon our hobby, I share your regret in that. But our "rights" in this regard are non-existent and non-enforcable.Where are the rants against O'Reilly and CMT (?) about the TiVo hacking books? Those have far more exposure than the ebay listings?

[djohn]

Actually as I recall you denied having posted that the HU hack was listed in your auction after lecturing someone who had posted their auction link that included lifetime sub. I think I was the one that pointed out (after you posted the link to your auction showing how lifetime subs were bs) that you were also advertising a service theft hack. Then your post and auction were editted and those things were denied.

I could really give a crap less if you sell tivos on ebay or not although it makes a headache for the people who write the hacks when the people create support problems.

I have recently seen things happen such as Riley pull mfs_ftp from tivostuff and Sleepers ISO because Tivostuff was asking for donations and Sleepers ISO was distributed there and also created support issues. I am sure there are others who have had support requests because hacks got in hands that didn't understand the first thing about the tivo.

All software be it TiVo's binaries or a little two line tcl script is copywritten, could be liscensed under GPL or DPL or simply closed source. Just because the source is public doesn't mean that source isn't copywritten by the author. No different then if I created a smiley face in mspaint and sold it for 2 billion dollars, it would be a copywritten work by me. Point being when I mentioned copyrights (did I even previously? not sure but should have ;p) I mainly meant the TiVo software since that is how they shut down the FTPs.

Do what you want, I won't stop you, you have no code of mine on there I am sure of that...unless someone gave you something they shouldn't have and then I am gonna be pissed off too. I won't even flame you and most of what I posted was simply to verify what the original auction advertised and a very good DPL that was sent to me by an author that didn't want to be named.

Open source is great, freely distributed public hacks are even better, people taking those freely distributed public hacks and them to profit are not so great. Also I agree you are probably not making enough money to pay yourself much more then you could make floppin whoppers but you really are paying too much for your 120G drives, CC gave out rainchecks this week for them at $30 bucks after rebate.

One final comment, if you guys haven't seen the shift in releases you are blind. It is things like these auctions that drive the developers into hiding to just enjoy their hacks with their close circle of friends rather then share them with the public. This week I was talking to someone who I knew had made a discovery on something that I had also spent some time on but had not been actively working on. That person wanted to know what I could and would contribute before sharing that information with me. In the end I straight up said I had too many other things in progress and probably couldn't contribute anything of value and he declined sharing his discovery with me. Can't blame him at all and I am sure he would react the same way to anyone not in his tight circle of friends. Moral of that story, I believe he doesn't want the info to end up being spread around and eventually ending up on ebay because it is running some really wild hacks and the fewer people that know how to do it the better.

[RUBiK]

Well said, djohn.

Honestly, I could care less what you do outside this forum, I don't know you and I really am just a nobody in the grand scheme of things... but I (indirectly) take offense to seeing stuff listed/mentioned in your auction that I know shouldn't be bundled in there as per author's wishes (with whom you may or may not have checked with prior to installing on the unit being sold).

Considering myself good friends with a few of the developers of some of the most useful/used/valuable software tools around here (most of which you include on your unit being sold), I feel bad that, perhaps in the long run, you're costing the rest of the community the chance to get to use any new/updated software as it comes out... once the developer(s) is/are fed up with people selling their stuff... You can debate the fact that you're not selling each feature per se all you want, but I personally don't buy it; I see it listed as a "feature" of your bundle and you're listing it for a reason -- to help you (better) sell your item.

Having said all that, if you have asked for permission to bundle up the programs/tools/scripts from their developers in advance and they've given you the OK, I'll gladly "calm down" and will feel better about the whole thing... but then again, what I think shouldn't matter much as I'm just jumping in to give my opinion on this whole thing.

[captain_video]

Your points are well taken and I appreciate the context in which they are given. I was more than a bit outraged at the accusation of being a scammer when it couldn't be further from the truth. That implies that I'm not telling the truth about what I'm selling when the fact is that I'm more truthful about my hacked DTivos than any other seller on ebay. I felt like I was being singled out simply because I've been a longtime member here and my user name is recognizable elsewhere. It's simply not right to post links here about someone's personal dealings outside the boundaries of this forum. That issue was addressed previously and I'm apalled at seeing it dredged up once again.

I sell nothing but turnkey systems that have been fully tested. I also back what I sell and make sure everything is fully functional so that the buyer doesn't have to come here looking for support. In fact, I had someone contact me the other day about a hacked DTivo he had purchased on ebay and the seller wasn't offering him any help with a problem he was having. I told him how to fix the problem and he was happy that I was able to help. There is indeed a niche market out there for pre-hacked Tivos and I'm only just partially filling the demand. I'm sure that I'm not the only one here that's doing it either. There are a lot of individuals that don't have the time or inclination to learn how to hack a Tivo. I provide them with more than enough info to become self-sufficient with the hacks I provided.

Actually as I recall you denied having posted that the HU hack was listed in your auction after lecturing someone who had posted their auction link that included lifetime sub. I think I was the one that pointed out (after you posted the link to your auction showing how lifetime subs were bs) that you were also advertising a service theft hack. Then your post and auction were editted and those things were denied.

This was the incident that was taken completely out of context. I do not deny making a change to an auction listing. When asked about it I was being sarcastic in my reply and it somehow ended up being taken as gospel. The listing of the service theft hack in the auction was a major faux pas on my part and I quickly realized it had no place on an ebay auction, which is why I edited the listing. FWIW, I also uninstalled the hack from the DTivo prior to the sale. I never had any inquiries about it other than when it was mentioned here.

As I said, all of the software I installed is freely available which is why I didn't feel the need to ask for anyone's permission to use it. There are vendors selling the software, upgraded hard drives, and all kinds of Tivo upgrades in various forums to an unsuspecting public that has no idea what to do with them. That's why I only sell complete units that have been fully tested.

Selling upgraded Tivos is becoming commonplace these days. Even authorized on-line DirecTV dealers are doing it (check the Orbitsat website and try to find a stock DSR7000 for sale). There are numerous other sellers on ebay that have been selling hacked DTivos longer than I have and openly claim that their units have lifetime subs. I dispel this myth in my auctions and tell it straight. Go ahead and compare all of the auctions and see which one is telling the truth about what's being sold then you'll know who the real scammers are.

Many of the scripts included in my hacked units are simply loaded on the Tivo drive and are not initiated automatically. I leave that up to the buyer as to whether or not they actually want to use them and I provide the steps necessary to run these apps as well as a description of what each one does.

but I (indirectly) take offense to seeing stuff listed/mentioned in your auction that I know shouldn't be bundled in there as per author's wishes (with whom you may or may not have checked with prior to installing on the unit being sold).

If the author of said program wants me to remove it from future DTivos I plan on selling I will do so at his or her's request. I have no desire to get on the wrong side of the real developers and will certainly comply with their wishes. I will, however, provide a link to the DDB thread that contains the software and provide detailed instructions for installing it. The buyer that has problems with the installation will then be directed to the appropriate forum for answers to his newbie questions since I would no longer be responsible for the software installation. I will expect the developer to provide the support for their own product. Otherwise, I'd be fielding all of the questions for the hack and be the one taking the heat if it doesn't work. So far no one from DDB has complained about what I've installed other than the aforementioned questionable DTV hacks.

FWIW, I gave $50 towards the new server when Vadim first posted the request for funds.

[alldeadhomiez]

I agree with AW and djohn. Taking a look at a few recent auctions, I see dozens of hacked units selling for $400 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3076113631&category=15071), $500 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073603085&category=11725), even $600 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3072599348&category=15071). Many of the units are stock hardware so it is clear that the buyer is paying a huge premium for hacks that the seller has no rights to.

This was not my intent when I posted hacks here. I too do not want to be blamed or hurt when TiVo and DTV crack down on these auctions so I feel that the best course of action at this point is self-policing. We need to reign in the rogue sellers before DTV does, because they tend to take a "scorched earth" approach to things and we will not like it if they have to step in.

Effective immediately, any original work I have posted here will be licensed under the "DPL" and may not be sold on eBay. This will be enforced through eBay's copyright reporting procedure and your auction will be canceled. I strongly encourage other authors to do the same.

I will make exceptions on a case by case basis for people who have made their own contributions to the hobby. Clearly it would be unfair for this policy to affect active participants here. But seeing strangers who have developed nothing make hundreds of dollars profit on each unit from our research is ludicrous and it will stop.

[newbie]

If the author of said program wants me to remove it from future DTivos I plan on selling I will do so at his or her's request.
FWIW, I gave $50 towards the new server when Vadim first posted the request for funds.

CV You have it backwards. Riley has a copyright on mfs_ftp. You have no right (legal, moral or ethical) to distribute unless YOU GET PERMISSION FIRST.

[rc3105]

missed this in time to cancel the auction with a NOCI notice - been busy with life 'n all :mad:

quoting the auction listing


Latest version of mfs_ftp for transferring videos to your PC and and back to the same Tivo or even a different one for playback; works with a standard ftp program


quoting the mfs_ftp readme


# TERMS OF USE: personal (noncommercial) fair-use backup & restore
# This software may not be used for copywright infringment or any illegal
# purpose, bundled with any product, sold, distributed or redistributed
# under any circumstances on any media without express written consent.


and quoting the mfs_ftp license


TERMS OF USE: personal (noncommercial) fair-use backup & restore
This software may not be used for copywright infringment or any illegal
purpose, bundled with any product, sold, distributed or redistributed
under any circumstances on any media without express written consent.

This software may NOT be redistributed under any circumstances on any
media without express written consent.

parties currently authorized to redistribute: NONE


now, copywritten sw has been distributed via e-bay in clear violation of oh, lesse, copyright law, interstate commerce regulations... I'm sure my lawyer will have a whole laundy list - he's practically drooling at the prospect of going after somebody with deep pockets - I'm just P*I*S*S*E*D OFF!


*kinda a shame, was gonna post some new utils on the mfs_ftp release anniversary next week - why else start a wishlist (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?p=145066) thread?


edit: look at the auction links in the first page of the captain's feedback, you'll see 7 tivo's, and that's just in the most recent page

[captain_video]

My apologies for any problems or aggravation I may have caused Riley, alldeadhomiez, or any other members here at DDB for my actions. I was unaware of any copyrights that were in affect for your software or I never would have violated them (sorry but I never got around to reading the readme for mfs_ftp). You have every right to be angry with me for posting said items and I am deeply sorry for doing so. There will be no further auctions posted on ebay for hacked Tivos incorporating your software.

Just so I don't ruffle any more feathers, I still have several S2 DTivos I need to sell on ebay but they will not be hacked to include any of the aforementioned software. I will be reviewing any copyright notices for each hack or utility I had previously installed so that my error will not be repeated. I'd like to at least provide a baseline for the buyer to work with if at all possible but will sell it as just a 2-drive upgrade with stock software if necessary. I will be providing a detailed set of instructions and links so that the buyer can obtain the software on his own and perform the hacks by himself. This should satisfy any distribution concerns since anyone is free to download the software for personal use. At least that's how I understand it so please correct me if I'm in error. I will offer any assistance to the buyer should he or she need it but rest assured that I will not be the one performing the hacks or providing the software.

Riley, if your lawyer is looking for someone with deep pockets I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. I've got one kid in college and another one starting next year. I was just looking for a few extra bucks to help supplement educational expenses. I wasn't seeing much of a profit margin but every little bit helps these days.

[rc3105]

ebay's the one with deep pockets - but of course they'll nix all the hacked listings tuesday to avoid any liability

$500 per copyright violation, 7 listings I see (reasonably sure ebay records will reveal more, but anyway) minus the lawyer's cut leaves about $1,700. oughta cover a hd-tivo 'n a dvd burner sa

since you admitted in your last post (which has been archived & the ip logged in case dealdatabase is deposed as a "witness") to the violation(s) & the $ in question is only a few thousand that sounds like a slam-dunk in small claims court

[BubbleLamp]

ebay's the one with deep pockets - but of course they'll nix all the hacked listings tuesday to avoid any liability

$500 per copyright violation, 7 listings I see (reasonably sure ebay records will reveal more, but anyway) minus the lawyer's cut leaves about $1,700. oughta cover a hd-tivo 'n a dvd burner sa

since you admitted in your last post (which has been archived & the ip logged in case dealdatabase is deposed as a "witness") to the violation(s) & the $ in question is only a few thousand that sounds like a slam-dunk in small claims court

Can we count on seeing you guys on Judge Judy?!!

BTW, Riley, you might want to spell-check your copyright notice. :D

[rc3105]

BTW, Riley, you might want to spell-check your copyright notice. :D


ya well, it's a hobby :p

LOL - if this were a commercial project I'd fire MYSELF for such sloppy coding!

[djohn]

I want to say that even though cv is the guy being picked on in this thread he is not nearly the worst culprit.

I think we are making him an easy target because he is a member of the community and we are familiar with him as a user. That doesn't make it any less of an issue.

Let it be known that I have nothing against cv in any way, no axe to grind or any reason to not like him, in fact I do like him. He has been very helpful to everyone he could help, never been rude that I have seen, has answered more newbie questions then I could EVER tollerate to answer and is straight up front and honest about what is and is not installed on his modded tivos. The issue is selling modded tivos with software that is free, yes you do have the work invested but you do not have near as much work invested as the people who wrote the software to start with.

[captain_video]

$500 per copyright violation, 7 listings I see (reasonably sure ebay records will reveal more, but anyway) minus the lawyer's cut leaves about $1,700. oughta cover a hd-tivo 'n a dvd burner sa

Actually, there were only four listings that sold. The S1 units did not include mfs_ftp and one each of the S1 and S2 units were relisted. The other listing was for my son's drum set. That's all there was as I didn't start selling them until after Christmas when my daughter's tuition bill came in for the spring semester.

djohn, thanks for the kind words. I have no axe to grind either. For an example of one of the real scammers I've seen on ebay, do a search for the user name lynchpat and see what you find. I pale in comparison to all the Tivos he's sold with copyrighted software. Not to mention the outright lies claiming lifetime subs and factory warranties. You can get a lifetime sub according to him, but only if you steal the service! Go get 'em, Riley! There's lots more out there that I haven't located yet but I'm still searching.

[mrblack51]

Actually, there were only four listings that sold. The S1 units did not include mfs_ftp and one each of the S1 and S2 units were relisted. The other listing was for my son's drum set. That's all there was as I didn't start selling them until after Christmas when my daughter's tuition bill came in for the spring semester.

djohn, thanks for the kind words. I have no axe to grind either. For an example of one of the real scammers I've seen on ebay, do a search for the user name lynchpat and see what you find. I pale in comparison to all the Tivos he's sold with copyrighted software. Not to mention the outright lies claiming lifetime subs and factory warranties. You can get a lifetime sub according to him, but only if you steal the service! Go get 'em, Riley! There's lots more out there that I haven't located yet but I'm still searching.

shifting the blame to someone else in an attempt to dodge the issue is shameful at best. just because there are other scummy people out there doesnt give you the right to be scummy by selling copyrighted work - bottom line. im not going to get into whether its right or wrong, i have my own opinions on that.

[malfunct]

shifting the blame to someone else in an attempt to dodge the issue is shameful at best. just because there are other scummy people out there doesnt give you the right to be scummy by selling copyrighted work - bottom line. im not going to get into whether its right or wrong, i have my own opinions on that.

I agree that the need to follow and licencing restrictions on the software is paramount as is not ever selling DTV theft software or devices. My only question is what is a fair amount to be charging for the service of installing the hacks? I mean I realize how easy it is for someone that knows what they are doing (I only half know and it took me an hour) but I know many people that just wouldn't know where to start. My opinion is that a monte'd tivo with no contract restrictions (because it was bought full price or you ate the contract time yourself) would have a price of about $300, $400 if you put in a larger drive (120gig or 160gig).

Are you saying that you think charging for installing the hacks is ethically wrong? Is it more the fact that licences are being broken and illegal hacks are included? Is it the fact that its making the scene far too public? I'm just curious the more detailed reasons why you don't like it, since many people just keep going "its bad".

That said my time is worth more to my employer than it would be to hack tivos and sell them on ebay so you won't see me doing that.

[David Bought]

I didn't realize that I was pissing so many people off here with things that have nothing to do with this forum. Since when did my private life become a public spectacle for your enjoyment?

Wow, where to start...

You STOLE our work, sold it for $300 profit, and think that has nothing to do with this forum?

You, sir, are a TRAITOR.

As for the refernce to DTV theft of service, I included a certain hack to allow the use of an older access card because most of the units I modified were not subbed to DTV. The only way I could test them thoroughly was to "test" them so I had to include the hack that enabled the use of said card.

More lies. Any subscribed card will receive the preview channels and locals which are sufficient for testing the unit. You were clearly advertising and selling these units with the intent to attract buyers who committed service theft. You went out of your way to draw attention to this hack.

Ironically, I procured said hack from a website linked to in the "Official image begging thread" posted by none other than David Bought himself so he is directly responsible for me finding the hack in the first place.

Who forced you to use and sell that hack?

Tell you what, we'll let the judge decide whether it's your fault or mine. SI will be notified as of Monday morning. You should know that as a moderator on a high profile service theft site, DTV is willing to take cheap shots at you, even if you're small fry. Say hi to the process server for me. :D

Anything that I do outside this board stays outside this board until members bring it to light and draw attention to it.

It's simply not right to post links here about someone's personal dealings outside the boundaries of this forum.

And when you're screwing the entire community here, there's a damn good reason to bring it to light, whether or not you want us to. You have no "right" to take advantage of us.

You're not the only one who is in the wrong, but you of all people should know better by now. We've already called you on your scam once. Only an outsider could plead ignorance.

I will expect the developer to provide the support for their own product.

Wrong, we don't owe you or your customers anything. You will not "expect" developers to do anything they don't want to do.

That's all there was as I didn't start selling them until after Christmas when my daughter's tuition bill came in for the spring semester.

Cut the "I'm poor so I'm allowed to break the law" shit.

[captain_video]

Are you saying that you think charging for installing the hacks is ethically wrong? Is it more the fact that licences are being broken and illegal hacks are included? Is it the fact that its making the scene far too public? I'm just curious the more detailed reasons why you don't like it, since many people just keep going "its bad".

I think it's more of the fact that I was distributing software without permission that had been copyrighted and not so much charging for the installation. I honestly didn't realize that any of the software here had been copyrighted so I thought nothing about there being a problem with distributing it outside of the forum. I went back and looked at some of the readme files and sure enough, there it was in black and white. I just totally missed the disclaimers and went along acting fat, dumb, and happy thinking that the software is free so what's the big deal? I have quickly been shown the error of my ways and have posted apologies both publicly and privately to several of the developers involved.

I'm not making excuses for what I did because it was flat out wrong and I can't apologize enough for the grief it's been causing. I can only promise that it won't happen again. There are too many good people here and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize what small shred of a relationship I have left with any of them. I'm sure a lot of you feel like I let you down and I know it's going to take some doing on my part to earn your respect back for what I did. Perhaps it will come in time but right now I don't feel like I deserve it.

[AlphaWolf]

First, let me repeat what I said in my first post: there is nothing personal here. However, what captain_video did very much crossed the line that I mentioned in my first paragraph. I don't care who does it, its simply unacceptable.

captain_video: The reason you are being singled out in this instance is nothing personal at all, in fact I had absolutely no beef with you until I saw your auction. Several people on IRC pointed your auction out to me before I even considered starting this thread. (in fact, I even insisted that they prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the captain_video on ebay was the same captain_video here before I even considered saying anything, you can even ask them if you don't believe me) They also pointed out that you had been doing this for quite some time. You are being singled out because this entire time, you have been trying to come off as somebody who is entirely legitimate and would not pull things like this, and not only that, but also lieing about being in canada, which would only serve one purpose.


I worded the auction quite carefully so as not to scam anyone. If you guys had actually taken the time to read the complete auction description carefully (it's quite detailed and explicit) and then weigh my actual costs vs. what I include I think you'll find that I offer quite a deal to those that want the benefits but don't want to take the time to learn how to hack their own Tivo.


You are right in that you carefully worded the auction, however, you carefully worded it to not appear to be a scam. I'll tell you why. One of your sentences as I quoted earlier says this:


Until recently, it was believed that series 2 DirecTivos could not be hacked and that the only way to get the most out of a DirecTivo was to buy a series 1 model.


Although the term "recently" is vague, its very misleading. Knowing yourself that it was too vague, you furthered it with:


I have recently discovered that others are selling similarly modified series 2 DirecTivos here on ebay.


As if you were the only person doing this, and then suddenly everybody else copied you, as if all of this was your original work. Granted you didn't outright say it, but its very much implied. Even if you do tell the customer that you really just got these hacks from somewhere else for free, they don't find that out until after they already bought it, at which point its too late. Thats called being deceptive, and being deceptive is scammings ugly cousin.

That isn't the end of it either. You keyworded it "lifetime," to lure the customer in, then after they get tired from reading a huge amount of salesbabble, you add some print at the bottom saying "oh, by the way, this isn't a lifetime unit," which they probably don't read anyways. Again, being deceptive.

In sum, you did 3 big things to cross the line:

1) All but claim these hacks as your own original work.
2) You were very deceptive.
3) You included directv service theft tools.

Oh, and by the way, why are you not including the access card with the unit?

[BubbleLamp]

In sum, you did 3 big things to cross the line:

1) All but claim these hacks as your own original work.
2) You were very deceptive.
3) You included directv service theft tools.

Oh, and by the way, why are you not including the access card with the unit?

1) I think you read into it what you want. Nowhere does he say the hacks are his. Each hack is named exactly as it is used elsewhere.
2) Compared to a lot of eBay ads, his do explain a lot more than the others, so it's less deceptive than most.
3) A definite no-no.

Now where is that Superbowl class action suit, I need to get reimbursed for my pain and suffering. :D

[mrblack51]

1) I think you read into it what you want. Nowhere does he say the hacks are his. Each hack is named exactly as it is used elsewhere.
2) Compared to a lot of eBay ads, his do explain a lot more than the others, so it's less deceptive than most.
3) A definite no-no.

Now where is that Superbowl class action suit, I need to get reimbursed for my pain and suffering. :D

i agree with AW on his point that CV has been claiming that he is not this that and the other...but has been doing this stuff for some time. CV acts like someone with high standards on DDB, so his actions should be held to similar standards. he shouldnt be upset about atoning for his actions.

basically, we expect some random schmuck ebay scum to rip off free information and try to profit from it. however, we dont expect a member of our community, who claims to be in the right and such, to sink to the level of the typical random schmuck ebay scum - thats the difference

[BubbleLamp]

basically, we expect some random schmuck ebay scum to rip off free information and try to profit from it. however, we dont expect a member of our community, who claims to be in the right and such, to sink to the level of the typical random schmuck ebay scum - thats the difference

Oh, you mean like the guys here who jump all over the DTV hackers, and then post on those sorts of boards? (And no, I'm not referring to CV.)

[mrblack51]

Oh, you mean like the guys here who jump all over the DTV hackers, and then post on those sorts of boards? (And no, I'm not referring to CV.)

wow, you must think you are pretty slick there. are you ever going to let that go? evidently not. in any event, one could question why you are so sensitive to the subject of dealing with a single problematic user? perhaps you feel you should have been the one who could make that decision - but alas, that isnt the case. in any event, watch yourself, you are on thin ice

[captain_video]

In sum, you did 3 big things to cross the line:

1) All but claim these hacks as your own original work.
2) You were very deceptive.
3) You included directv service theft tools.

Oh, and by the way, why are you not including the access card with the unit?

I can only say that perception is in the eye of the beholder. AW and several others here apparently interpreted my auction description differently from what was intended. There was no deception intended in anything I stated, no matter how you read it.

1. I never claimed any such thing. As BL said, you read what you wanted into the auction description. I don't follow every item that's listed on ebay and I had, in fact, only just discovered that someone else had been listing similarly hacked units on ebay while making completely false claims about lifetime service, etc. I have no control over how you interpreted it.

2. Not if you bothered to read the entire description. I know I tend to get longwinded but I do so because I try to include every pertinent detail and sometimes go way overboard in the process. As I said earlier, the intro was a bit outdated but in no way was it meant to be misleading. Until the BASH_ENV hack and monte came along this was an absolutely true statement. I didn't follow the advances for S2 hacks until well after cobelli's guide appeared on the scene. I didn't have an S2 unit at the time so I didn't see the need to follow what was happening in that area. Viewing things from my timeline it was an absolutely true statement. To me, it was most definitely a recent development. Obviously it differed from your point of view if you had been keeping up with the progress of S2 hacking.

3. I included a hack that allowed the use of an outdated access card. I won't deny that the use of such a card would only constitute service theft so it was definitely something that should not have been mentioned or included in the auction. MrB says I should be held to a higher standard because of the way I conduct myself here. My belief has been that discussions of service theft of any kind have no place in these forums and I do my best to abide by that rule. The standard response to such talk has always been "Take it to a place that allows such discussions but not here." I have tried my best to adhere to this golden rule and have admonished others for breaking it. While ebay is most definitely not the place for such things, I and many others from this forum, choose to discuss it elsewhere and do our best not to overlap discussions between the two forums.

Some of you may remember that it wasn't all that long ago when such discussions, albeit on a limited level, were open topics in these forums. The links that DB so generously posted in his "DB Banned" thread bears this out. What he didn't post were the same topics discussed by the rank and file at that time. I seem to recall that Vadim himself even stated at the time that he had no problem with the topics as long as they were kept low-key. The recent crackdowns by DTV have caused these rules to be followed far more strictly than they used to be and I try to follow them as the rest of you do. The fact that the hack was included with software culled from this forum is inexcusable on my part and I am ashamed that I did so.

I had no valid access cards to include with any of the units I sold. If I had included an Hu card I would have never heard the end of it, although that is something I would not have done even if I had them to give. Enabling Hu compatibility and then providing the bullet to load the gun would not have been my style, regardless of what you may think of me.

Many of the DTivos I sold were purchased used on ebay and did not come with an access card. The others were new units that I activated on my personal DTV account for a short period of time and then had them disconnected. I had to agree to extend my DTV commitment for another 12 months from the date of activation but I intend to be a loyal DTV subscriber for quite some time so it's no hardship for me to do so. My monthly DTV bill is between $75.00 and $95.00 depending on the number of receivers I have on the account at any given time. That includes Total Choice with locals and HBO and probably something else that I've lost track of (I only watch a handful of channels so it's something the wife and kids wanted).

The P4 and P5 cards activated with the DTivos were then useless to anyone else since they had already been subbed. I believe I stated what was necessary to get a new card in the auction description ($20 from DTV). Since P4 and P5 cards are unhackable they have no value to anyone after they've been subbed so why would I include a useless piece of plastic?.

[mrblack51]

I had no valid access cards to include with any of the units I sold. If I had included an Hu card I would have never heard the end of it, although that is something I would not have done even if I had them to give. Enabling Hu compatibility and then providing the bullet to load the gun would not have been my style, regardless of what you may think of me.

Many of the DTivos I sold were purchased used on ebay and did not come with an access card. The others were new units that I activated on my personal DTV account for a short period of time and then had them disconnected. I had to agree to extend my DTV commitment for another 12 months from the date of activation but I intend to be a loyal DTV subscriber for quite some time so it's no hardship for me to do so. My monthly DTV bill is between $75.00 and $95.00 depending on the number of receivers I have on the account at any given time. That includes Total Choice with locals and HBO and probably something else that I've lost track of (I only watch a handful of channels so it's something the wife and kids wanted).

i dont see how stating what your DTV bill is has to do with any of this. there is an assumption here that everyone pays their dtv bill (everyone should be, and if they arent we dont want to hear about it on ddb). claims of "i pay X for Y, which entitles me to Z" are not accurate. in the end, the action is still the action, regardless of how much you pay dtv. you could be paying dtv $1000 a month, but that wouldnt change the fact that selling units which have the HU hack is selling a unit purposely enabled for service theft.

[AlphaWolf]

2) Compared to a lot of eBay ads, his do explain a lot more than the others, so it's less deceptive than most.


Well, deception is deception.

I can only say that perception is in the eye of the beholder. AW and several others here apparently interpreted my auction description differently from what was intended. There was no deception intended in anything I stated, no matter how you read it.

Well, apparently there is deception present in the way I read it.


1. I never claimed any such thing. As BL said, you read what you wanted into the auction description. I don't follow every item that's listed on ebay and I had, in fact, only just discovered that someone else had been listing similarly hacked units on ebay while making completely false claims about lifetime service, etc. I have no control over how you interpreted it.


You used the following untrue statements:


Until recently, it was believed that series 2 DirecTivos could not be hacked and that the only way to get the most out of a DirecTivo was to buy a series 1 model.

I have recently discovered that others are selling similarly modified series 2 DirecTivos here on ebay.


By looking at your ebay record, its very obvious that you have been selling on ebay for a long time, so your "recently discovered" claim is a lie. With that in mind, how can this sentence not be interpreted as you claiming yourself as an official distributor of these hacks?


To me, it was most definitely a recent development. Obviously it differed from your point of view if you had been keeping up with the progress of S2 hacking.


Even if you only recently started hacking S2 units, you have been trading on ebay for a long time, so I don't buy that in the slightest.


I included a hack that allowed the use of an outdated access card.


Now why would they need to use an outdated access card?

[tytyty]

Personaly I beleive this thread has run its course.
Let it be a warning to all that use these boards for information and enlightenment that the information and programs here are usefull, but the misuse of said can be paid for with the scorn and ridicule of its members.

Learn, Teach, Enlighten but Do not take advantage.

And in the words of the imortal one.....


THREAD CLOSED :)

[captain_video]

Well, deception is deception.

Obviously you started this thread because you somehow feel deceived. I have no control over what you perceive. There was never any intention to be deceptive in any way and I'm sorry you can't see that.

You used the following untrue statements:
Quote:

Until recently, it was believed that series 2 DirecTivos could not be hacked and that the only way to get the most out of a DirecTivo was to buy a series 1 model.

I have recently discovered that others are selling similarly modified series 2 DirecTivos here on ebay.

Just because you don't believe them to be true doesn't mean they weren't true from my perspective. I wrote what I thought was a true statement at the time. It has obviously become outdated and may no longer be true but as such you are perceiving this to be a deceptive remark.

Just because I've been selling on ebay for a long time has no bearing on what I do or do know know about other people's auctions. I have seen lots of other hacked DTivos but until just recently 99% of them had been series 1 models.

While there may have been more series 2 models that had been hacked, I never checked the auction descriptions to see what they were all about so the statemennt about their recent discovery was a true statement. Believe what you want. There was never any deception intended. In fact, I went out of my way to be as truthful about what I had for sale as I possibly could. Apparently you think otherwise. That's your opinion, and that's all it is BTW since you have no way of knowing what I was thinking at the time I wrote it, so you're welcome to it. We agree to disagree on this point so let that be an end to it.

[Hi8]

I plan on putting my SVR 2000 on eBay.

Do I remove all the hacks, and put the original drive back in? Or can I sell it with everything I've done, MFS_FTP, tserver, Telnet, FTP, TiVoWeb; and put in credit to all those listing each hack/developer ?

I'm now afraid to ask for a reserve price, thinking I will be lamb-basted if it doesn't meet with the DDB forum User Association's approval.

to be honest $300 range for a hacked s2 is NOT that bad! I bought my Hughes SD-DVR40 at Circuit City for $99 plus CT sales tax (6%) $105.

bought a 120gig HD & Belkin USB Ethernet from TigerDirect for $104 / $29.95 Plus Shipping & Tax $135 --

so far my cost is about $240 add in a few hours of my time and I'm Way over $300.

sure if you know what you are doing you can knock this out in a few minutes, but isn't that what experience give you? How much is that worth. I have have a few people ask me to hack TiVos for them, and were willing to pay that much and more. I have never taken them up on it, as I don't really have the time, as I don't feel it's worth it for me. My occupation pays me MUCH more than that per hour - to make it something I would do beyond a personal favor.

I'm starting to feel like by being a member here, I need to go before a condo association board before I list a hacked TiVo on eBay.

I don't think CV did anything that any good advertising exec. would do in wording an ad to sell their product. Have you ever looked at the diet pill ads? or Ronco TV ads... is EVERYTHING in the Ad just the facts without any embelishment of letting the Buyer fill in the blanks?

I too have just hacked an S2 - I never payed much attention to the threads related to it until now, as far as I'm concerned I knew a few people that were able to hack one... MrBlack comes to mind... but until Sleeper's ISO - I never considered the process.

I also have modified what Sleeper's scripts do, as I don't think they produce a base system to my likeing. I don't like his 30sec skip or Nowshowing sort method - using sendkey type activation. Skip30 and noscramble2 are MUCH better ways to do it IMHO.

If I reflected that modification to my hacked auctioned Tivo would I be accused of taking creadit for the origin of the hacks?

[captain_video]

I'm not going to make any comments about what you should or shouldn't do with regard to your hacks since I'm in no position to respond to that. Based on the posts in this thread I'd have to say that it would generally be frowned upon. However, you should be able to ask whatever price you feel is fair for the hardware and accessories and whatever else you put into it.

I was being criticized for asking $375.00 for a S2 DTivo that included a 2nd 120GB hard drive and hard drive bracket, USB 2.0 adapter, serial cable, backup software, and free shipping. Never mind that a new 120GB Hughes DVR120 will cost you $395.00 at your local Circuit City and so far has never been discounted to my knowledge. It may come down in price eventually but for now it's a new model and sells for full retail. Check the prices on ebay and see what the going rate is. SA Tivos don't sell for all that much unless they come with a lifetime sub (the legit kind).

[Hi8]

I'm not going to make any comments about what you should or shouldn't do with regard to your hacks since I'm in no position to respond to that. Based on the posts in this thread I'd have to say that it would generally be frowned upon. However, you should be able to ask whatever price you feel is fair for the hardware and accessories and whatever else you put into it.

I was being criticized for asking $375.00 for a S2 DTivo that included a 2nd 120GB hard drive and hard drive bracket, USB 2.0 adapter, serial cable, backup software, and free shipping. Never mind that a new 120GB Hughes DVR120 will cost you $395.00 at your local Circuit City and so far has never been discounted to my knowledge. It may come down in price eventually but for now it's a new model and sells for full retail. Check the prices on ebay and see what the going rate is. SA Tivos don't sell for all that much unless they come with a lifetime sub (the legit kind).

mine does come with a legit sub paid for by ME $249 --- I know I offered mine up on this forum with and or without the 120gig HD or original 40gig - for less than I paid for the lifteime sub! without any takers. But that's neither here nor there.

thanks for your advice; I ALWAYS respected what you had to say, and still do. If I were in the market for another S2 I wouldn't hesitate to pay $375 for a S2 with extraction hacks - and only one 120gig HD. As I stated eariler; my personal time is worth something to me, and the first S2 I hacked filled the hobby need of doing it, I don't feel the NEED to do it again. I'm just waiting for my Tee-Shirts to arrive that I ordered and plan on selling on eBay --

"I Hacked myS2 TiVo!"

I hope nobody asks for a cut of the Profits -- or royalties - for the merchandising side of the business. (just kidding) But the point I was trying to make was where does the gray issue end? Up until now it appears it's based on an opinion as to where the line is, and if there is a line -- can you show it to me, so I can make sure I'm abiding by each an every letter. (excluding copyright notices within the sourcecode)

For Sale (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31524)

[sanderton]

But the point I was trying to make was where does the gray issue end? Up until now it appears it's based on an opinion as to where the line is, and if there is a line -- can you show it to me, so I can make sure I'm abiding by each an every letter. (excluding copyright notices within the sourcecode)

The absolutely clear point is where the author of a hack specifically states that it can't be sold on, as Riley does with mfs_ftp for example.

"Not having read the readme" doesn't really stack up as an excuse, especially for a complex hack where surely the readme is an essential part of the install process.

[captain_video]

The way I understand it, if there's a copyright notice that comes with the software that specifically states you can't distribute it without permission from the author, you can't sell your Tivo with said software installed on it. I'm sure there are some programs developed for the Tivo that do not come with such restrictions but right now I don't know exactly where that line is drawn. I don't develop software myself so I am completely unfamiliar with copyrighting issues and never gave it a second thought as a result.

"Not having read the readme" doesn't really stack up as an excuse, especially for a complex hack where surely the readme is an essential part of the install process.

I agree that ignorance is no defense and I've already admitted that it was wrong of me to include Riley's program as well as any others that may have been copyrighted. I think that issue's been addressed and put to bed.

It would be nice if there was a compiled list of programs that were copyrighted and which ones weren't so my mistake would not be repeated by others.

[Hi8]

The absolutely clear point is where the author of a hack specifically states that it can't be sold on, as Riley does with mfs_ftp for example.

"Not having read the readme" doesn't really stack up as an excuse, especially for a complex hack where surely the readme is an essential part of the install process.


you mean like you not reading / ignoring this...

(excluding copyright notices within the sourcecode)

perhaps my point should have been, most of what I have seen, is what some "WANT" to see(interpret) in his auction description. He has acknowledged the issues with copyrights -- perhaps continuing to point out what he has already admitted is useful in some way?

[BubbleLamp]

you mean like you not reading / ignoring this...

(excluding copyright notices within the sourcecode)

perhaps my point should have been, most of what I have seen, is what some "WANT" to see(interpret) in his auction description. He has acknowledged the issues with copyrights -- perhaps continuing to point out what he has already admitted is useful in some way?
Why not start a thread asking exactly which hacks are copyrighted AND may not be distributed?

[Hi8]

This whole thread begs the fine line / Balancing Act that Headshops play(ed) with drug misc.

Selling papers, pipes, & roach clips VERY legal nothing wrong with it, but god forbid imply they have anything to do with drugs.

I'm sure many of the hack/developers "test" their talents with the darker side of this DSS hobby. Perhaps some of which may be offended or upset that they are assumed guilty of something that appears to be illegal - thru the association of CV's auction.

Let's face it; why do you think TiVo/DTV have NOT made a big deal out of all this stuff, because it's not THEM that are concerned, It's the HBO ; ShowTime, PPV distributors that care along with the Movie Studios.


If they did DDB would have been shut down awhile ago. Meaning most of US are on the edge here with what is perfectly legal and acceptable.

[mrblack51]

I'm not going to make any comments about what you should or shouldn't do with regard to your hacks since I'm in no position to respond to that. Based on the posts in this thread I'd have to say that it would generally be frowned upon. However, you should be able to ask whatever price you feel is fair for the hardware and accessories and whatever else you put into it.

I was being criticized for asking $375.00 for a S2 DTivo that included a 2nd 120GB hard drive and hard drive bracket, USB 2.0 adapter, serial cable, backup software, and free shipping. Never mind that a new 120GB Hughes DVR120 will cost you $395.00 at your local Circuit City and so far has never been discounted to my knowledge. It may come down in price eventually but for now it's a new model and sells for full retail. Check the prices on ebay and see what the going rate is. SA Tivos don't sell for all that much unless they come with a lifetime sub (the legit kind).

there are a couple major differences that i have seen between you and hi8.
1) where hi8 is selling his personal box to get rid of it, you sold multiple units production line style clearly with the intent of making money (im not saying there is anything against making money in general, but the fact remains that
such an action places you in the league with other typical ebayers

2) your unit was advertised as having a lifetime hack, even though you had your lengthy paragraph at the end of the ad. hi8 is selling a legit lifetime unit, and should not have problems because of it.

3) hi8 would be selling a unit which is legit. you are purposely selling and advertising units which have been intentionally modified to allow for service theft. that is a major difference on its own

[FredThompson]

wrt point 1, that's irrelevant except he should properly follow licensing terms of whatever modifications are included. Profit motive is good, it's why TiVo devices exist.

wrt points 2 and 3, these are only true because of the HU hack. Purchase of a proper card from DirecTV includes billing for the TiVo service regardless of the unit calling home or not, doesn't it?

[captain_video]

there are a couple major differences that i have seen between you and hi8.
1) where hi8 is selling his personal box to get rid of it, you sold multiple units production line style clearly with the intent of making money (im not saying there is anything against making money in general, but the fact remains that
such an action places you in the league with other typical ebayers

2) your unit was advertised as having a lifetime hack, even though you had your lengthy paragraph at the end of the ad. hi8 is selling a legit lifetime unit, and should not have problems because of it.

3) hi8 would be selling a unit which is legit. you are purposely selling and advertising units which have been intentionally modified to allow for service theft. that is a major difference on its own

1. If you consider four units a production line then I won't argue the point (although it was really only three because the other one was a personal unit that I had hacked long ago and just replaced with an S2 model, clearly putting one of my auctions in the same light as Hi8's). A moot point perhaps, but one I thought I should clarify.

2. No, the unit was advertised as having a "lifetime" sub (the quotes indicate that there's a caveat or catch in case you're unfamiliar with this particular use of the punctuation). The "lifetime" sub and it's real meaning was clearly defined in several places throughout the description and pointed to the discussion at the end of the auction page. As with any document, you need to read the fine print (even though it was clearly big print) to know what you're buying. Show me a single auction on ebay other than mine that has been honest enough to describe what a "lifetime" sub really means. You can't buy one with a DTivo anymore, especially a S2 model. You can still buy lifetime service for a SA model so you're mixing apples and oranges when comparing a DTivo to a SA unit.

3. I'm definitely not going to mince words on this one because everyone has their own feelings about this. Suffice it to say that it takes more than what I did to steal service from DTV. That action is clearly taken by the buyer and it's not a plug and play hack without performing other actions with the access card. I'm not going to say one way or the other whether I intended it to be included for service theft but I did install it for reasons stated previously. The fact that it remained on the unit was wrong and I've already admitted that it was so there's no need to belabor the issue.

While DB's premise was that I only needed any P4 or P5 access card to check out the tuners, I would not be able to make sample recordings to test out the extraction methods I installed. You can't record without an active access card and two of the receivers I sold did not come with cards so I had to make other arrangements. Any recordings were subsequently deleted and a Clear and Delete Everything was performed prior to shipping the unit to set everything back to default. In hindsight I should have removed the aforementioned hack as well but I didn't so there it is.

[David Bought]

1. If you consider four units a production line then I won't argue the point

Selling four units is proof positive that you were engaged in this as a business activity. Nobody finds themselves with four "extra" Tivos.

I'm definitely not going to mince words on this one because everyone has their own feelings about this. Suffice it to say that it takes more than what I did to steal service from DTV.

You WILL NOT justify bad behavior with worse behavior.

I'm not going to say one way or the other whether I intended it to be included for service theft but I did install it for reasons stated previously.

Actions speak louder than words. You have spent a significant amount of your time helping people defraud DTV, and your day of reckoning is coming soon.

While DB's premise was that I only needed any P4 or P5 access card to check out the tuners, I would not be able to make sample recordings to test out the extraction methods I installed.

What's wrong, can't figure out how to record channel 100 after you've been "hacking PVRs for 4-5 years"? Sounds like we've got a real pro on our hands here. :D

Regardless, several preview channels and most local channel packages are viewable with a subscribed access card, regardless of pairing status. There was NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER for ever installing this service theft hack. You may believe your own lies by now but we do not.

[Hi8]

Selling four units is proof positive that you were engaged in this as a business activity. Nobody finds themselves with four "extra" Tivos.




strange ... my wife says the same thing! "We only need 1 why do we have 5!"

DB wrong? hummm.

[captain_video]

Only five? I've had up to eight of them subbed at one time plus several regular receivers. :D

[captain_video]

You are being singled out because this entire time, you have been trying to come off as somebody who is entirely legitimate and would not pull things like this, and not only that, but also lieing about being in canada, which would only serve one purpose.

I just saw this as I somehow missed it the first time around. I gotta tell you that I have no idea what this statement is all about. Where did I ever state or deny that I lived in Canada?

I'd also like to set the record straight about my involvement in a website that has been given more than it's share of attention by certain parties here. I was asked to be a mod for the Tivo section at a website that primarily dealt with hacking DTV and other related topics. I had reservations about this since I wasn't too thrilled about being associated with the DTV related stuff. I was assured that I only had to work with the Tivo area so I agreed to take on the task.

Just about a month or so ago I was actually terminated as a mod there because the other mods there thought I wasn't pulling my own weight. The reason they thought this was because I was never doing anything in the DTV area of the website and that I was spending all of my time here at DDB instead of attending to the other forums.

I told the owner of the site that I was brought onboard to handle the Tivo side of things and nothing more. I also informed him that I needed to spend time here because this is where the action is and where the cutting edge of Tivo hacking takes place. I had to learn what was going on in the real world of Tivo hacking so I could share it with the limited membership there. As a result, I was reinstated with the agreement that I would only deal with the Tivo forums and have little or nothing to do with the DTV area.

Someone here mentioned that I was a part owner of said site when in fact I have no vested interest in the site whatsoever. There is only a little bit of traffic so I'm hardly there at all except when I receive notification that someone has posted in a thread in the Tivo section. Most of you are aware of the site I'm referring to so you're more than welcome to stop by and check my posting record to see my activities there. I think you may find only one or two posts in the DTV area where I responded to a post but I sincerely doubt there's more than a few there by me. Somehow my involvement has gotten blown out of proportion and I'm being pictured as some super nefarious DTV-hacker. The fact is, I know just the basics about DTV hacking and what I've seen over the years has shown me that it simply doesn't pay not to be a legit subscriber.

BTW, before you jump in and claim that I went in and deleted all of my posts in the DTV area you should know that all control panel permissions for the mods were revoked a while back when it was discovered a renegade mod wreaked havoc in the forum and wiped out a vast majority of the files and major threads. I had to go in and rebuild the majority of the Tivo section from scratch (mostly How Tos and links to other sites). AFAIK, I couldn't remove a post or thread even if I wanted to. Just check the Admin threads and see what all the other mods have been griping about to prove what I'm saying.

P.S. I have quite a few members there that have been avoiding DDB simply because they don't want to have to deal with The Janitor. They like it where they can talk nice to each other without getting flamed for asking newbie questions.

[AVD]

The drug paraphenelia reference is an interesting one:

I think of this hobby akin to a grow-your-own mentality: what you do in the privacy of your home is ok, once you take it outside it ain't kosher anymore.

Maybe we can draw a sodomy reference to it instead.

[tytyty]

The drug paraphenelia reference is an interesting one:

I think of this hobby akin to a grow-your-own mentality: what you do in the privacy of your home is ok, once you take it outside it ain't kosher anymore.

Maybe we can draw a sodomy reference to it instead.

Drugs and sex where is the rock and roll ?

[Sleeper]

Captain,

I have very mixed feelings about this situation. I do not like the thought that anyone is profiting from the hard work of some of the tools that I and others have created. I created my tools with the intent that other Tivo owners could enjoy the hobby without the skillset that is otherwise required. I have to date never asked for or accepted any compensation for my work, including many telephone calls to help certain individuals that could not reslove problems on their own.

If you are using any of my tools to profit personally, I must ask you to stop. Future license agreements will be included to legally prohibit such actions.

On the other hand, authors have used their knowledge to financially gain from others works by writing books. And I believe that you are within your rights to sell modified tivos provided that you do not a) violate license agreements and b) violate the wishes and best interests of your peers.

I applaud you for being forthwright in this matter. I believe this thread and the self-policing here by your peers is the proper way to handle the situation.

I am not calling for you to cease and decist, but I am asking that you get the proper approval for each and every tool and utility that you use and/or distribute with the modified units that you sell.

Regards,


Sleeper

[rc3105]

Drugs and sex where is the rock and roll ?
channels 815-821, didn't you see the hack AW posted for recording dtv music channels? :)

[captain_video]

Sleeper,

I have already agreed to cease and desist so that is no longer an issue. I never intended to betray anyone's trust here at DDB but it was a thoughtless act on my part that resulted in it happening anyway, whether intentional or not. I will no longer openly advertise modified Tivos that contain any of the software developed by DDB members or any that was developed outside of this board that is copyrighted.

It has already been suggested by myself and someone else that we put together a list of copyrighted software so we all know what we can and cannot use so this error will not be repeated. I would like to see a thread started where all developers can post which software they've created that is copyrighted. I have looked through many of the posts and zip files and most of them do not contain either a readme file or any sort of copyright notice yet they are being touted as having a copyright. If there is no mention of it with the software itself how are we to know if it's copyrighted or not?

The developers here haved worked extremely hard to help the rest of the community further this hobby. There seems to be no limit to what they can accomplish when they put their minds to it. I fully support the copyright agreement that was suggested earlier as I do feel that your hard work should be protected.

[David Bought]

If there is no mention of it with the software itself how are we to know if it's copyrighted or not?

Here is a simple rule of thumb: if you did not write it, and somebody else did, you don't have the right to copy it unless they give you permission. Any questions? :D

Your boneheaded move drew attention to the situation and prompted a crackdown by authors who otherwise would not care. Nice going.

Just about a month or so ago I was actually terminated as a mod there because the other mods there thought I wasn't pulling my own weight. The reason they thought this was because I was never doing anything in the DTV area of the website and that I was spending all of my time here at DDB instead of attending to the other forums.

Translation: you were fired for incompetence. The truth just sounds different, doesn't it? :D

After "4-5 years" of stealing DTV and hacking PVRs, you have about the same level of understanding of the subject as the average 1-month veteran of DDB. I would have fired you with extreme prejudice a long time ago.

P.S. I have quite a few members there that have been avoiding DDB simply because they don't want to have to deal with The Janitor.

Wow, just what we need, more shithead DSS thieves asking what 53999999 means and whining about demo mode every Friday. Sounds like a huge loss for DDB. :D

[newbie]

Even if tytools doesn't have a copyright common courtesty would suggest you check with Josh before you sell it. If the author is around why not ask first? It really isn't yours to sell with or without a copyright.

You really ought to square things with Riley, you really don't have a leg to stand on. He asked Dennis to remove mfs_ftp from tivostuff when he started asking for donations. You can't read the installation instructions without seeing the copyright notice yet you sold the program. Not sure if you owe Riley a check, contribution to his favorite charity or if the apology is sufficient BUT you really should square up.

Don't want to "pile on" but this was a unit you bought for re-sale, you didn't even have it activated long enough to D/L the current software, just long enough so you wouldn't get a charge back for not activating the unit.







The way I understand it, if there's a copyright notice that comes with the software that specifically states you can't distribute it without permission from the author, you can't sell your Tivo with said software installed on it. I'm sure there are some programs developed for the Tivo that do not come with such restrictions but right now I don't know exactly where that line is drawn. I don't develop software myself so I am completely unfamiliar with copyrighting issues and never gave it a second thought as a result.





I agree that ignorance is no defense and I've already admitted that it was wrong of me to include Riley's program as well as any others that may have been copyrighted. I think that issue's been addressed and put to bed.

It would be nice if there was a compiled list of programs that were copyrighted and which ones weren't so my mistake would not be repeated by others.

[Hi8]

Wow, just what we need, more shithead DSS thieves asking what 53999999 means and whining about demo mode every Friday. Sounds like a huge loss for DDB. :D


speaking of that kinda guy ... you seem to know an awful lot about the subject for someone that rides so high on his horse. Almost too much to have not actually done it before... ???? You remind me of Rush Limbaugh in MANY ways.

[Hi8]

Even if tytools doesn't have a copyright common courtesty would suggest you check with Josh before you sell it. If the author is around why not ask first? It really isn't yours to sell with or without a copyright.

he didn't sell anybody's software. If I were one of these guys that have developed these hacks and was concerned, I would also look into what PVRUpgrades is packaging. It sounds an awful lot like the same thing CV is getting accused of?

DVDrchiver software a TiVo Netready Harddrive kit?

see below:

DVRchive Client Tool Installation
Overview
This toolkit of DVRchive clients is packaged using a simple Windows Installer to simplify installation and removal of the software on your Windows PC. We recommend you run these tools on Windows XP or Windows 2000. The toolkit contains repackaged versions of TyStudio and TyTools. These tools are very simple to use for archiving recordings from your TiVo your PC into a relatively standard mpeg-2 file. Advanced functionality in both tools allow users to edit scenes or commecials, and save files in formats suitable for DVD burning, as well.

Sounds like someone with deeper pockets to me!

[David Bought]

Don't want to "pile on" but this was a unit you bought for re-sale, you didn't even have it activated long enough to D/L the current software, just long enough so you wouldn't get a charge back for not activating the unit.

No, we should be piling on. CV has violated our community standards at least three or four times in the past few months with his outrageous, illegal scams. Maybe this time the message will get through and he'll learn that breaking the law will not be tolerated here, especially in ways that tarnish the entire community's reputation.

Almost too much to have not actually done it before...

State your proof now or shut the hell up.

If I were one of these guys that have developed these hacks and was concerned, I would also look into what PVRUpgrades is packaging. It sounds an awful lot like the same thing CV is getting accused of?

CV is the problem here, not PVRupgrades. PVRupgrades is a legitimate, professional business that does not sell service theft hacks. CV is a well known liar and thief who should not be allowed to profit from our hard work.

Quit trying to distract us from the real issues.

[Hi8]

State your proof now or shut the hell up.



wow... sensitive aren't we? I wonder why? something to hide?



Quit trying to distract us from the real issues.

Sounds like the REAL issue is you have a hair across you ass for this guy, nothing more.

[Hi8]

PVRupgrades is a legitimate, professional business that does not sell service theft hacks.

Quit trying to distract us from the real issues.

I thought the issue WAS including copyrighted software with his TiVos that were up for auction?

You didn't seem to explain this: (right from PVRUpgrades webpage)

We make it so easy, practically anyone can do it. DVRchive is now a option when networking your TiVo with our Genuine TurboNet Bundles or CacheCard Bundles. Simply add a TurboNet Bundle or a CacheCard Bundle to your cart, and select DVRchive before you checkout. You can order the kit and install it yourself, or you can ship us your TiVo and we'll install it for you!

-------

It sounds like CV can offer the same thing and be considered a legit and professional business, as you seem to endorse this business model.

[David Bought]

Sounds like the REAL issue is you have a hair across you ass for this guy, nothing more.

That's an odd (read: stupid) statement to make after several TIVO GODs just ripped him a new asshole for his shady and illegal activities.

Did you even read this thread before you posted your nonsense?

wow... sensitive aren't we? I wonder why? something to hide?

Well, we all have skeletons in our closets (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&th=377c3cd0eeac2fde&seekm=oAyR7.1181%248N6.63492%40atlpnn01.usenetserver.com#link1), don't we? :D

[Hi8]

That's an odd (read: stupid) statement to make after several TIVO GODs just ripped him a new ******* for his shady and illegal activities.

Did you even read this thread before you posted your nonsense?


yes, and YOU are the only one that refers to himself as a "TiVo GOD" that I know of.

And you seem to include yourself in this "Class-Action" attack -- in this statement:

...who should not be allowed to profit from our hard work

you keep using that term "our" and "we" -- remind US all again as to what did CV put on those TiVos that had YOUR name on it? Or better Yet what hacks have you authored again? you seem to ALWAYS avoid answering that question!

...tarnish the entire community's reputation.

And I suppose YOUR friendly, curtious, helpful respones to users just starting out - are to be held up as an example for all to emulate, as the way to improve the community's reputation?

[BubbleLamp]

I thought the issue WAS including copyrighted software with his TiVos that were up for auction?

You didn't seem to explain this: (right from PVRUpgrades webpage)

We make it so easy, practically anyone can do it. DVRchive is now a option when networking your TiVo with our Genuine TurboNet Bundles or CacheCard Bundles. Simply add a TurboNet Bundle or a CacheCard Bundle to your cart, and select DVRchive before you checkout. You can order the kit and install it yourself, or you can ship us your TiVo and we'll install it for you!

-------

It sounds like CV can offer the same thing and be considered a legit and professional business, as you seem to endorse this business model.

Stop confusing him with facts Hi8, you know that only clouds the issue. :rolleyes:

[newbie]

CV was including MFS_FTP. That software has a copywrite and Riley didn't authorize distribution. The copywrite notice is right before the instructions you need to read before you install the program. Very hard to miss. CV posts on many threads. Riley has made a point of getting his files out of Cobelli, sleepers tools and tivostuff. PVRupgrades is not including mfs_ftp, just tytools and tystudio.

AFAIK Josh and Olaf didn't copywrite their software. As a courtesty (not a legal requirement) I suggested that CV check with Josh before distributing tytools. I don't know if pvrupgrades did.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

I thought the issue WAS including copyrighted software with his TiVos that were up for auction?

You didn't seem to explain this: (right from PVRUpgrades webpage)

We make it so easy, practically anyone can do it. DVRchive is now a option when networking your TiVo with our Genuine TurboNet Bundles or CacheCard Bundles. Simply add a TurboNet Bundle or a CacheCard Bundle to your cart, and select DVRchive before you checkout. You can order the kit and install it yourself, or you can ship us your TiVo and we'll install it for you!

-------

It sounds like CV can offer the same thing and be considered a legit and professional business, as you seem to endorse this business model.

[mrblack51]

CV was including MFS_FTP. That software has a copywrite and Riley didn't authorize distribution. The copywrite notice is right before the instructions you need to read before you install the program. Very hard to miss. CV posts on many threads. Riley has made a point of getting his files out of Cobelli, sleepers tools and tivostuff. PVRupgrades is not including mfs_ftp, just tytools and tystudio.

AFAIK Josh and Olaf didn't copywrite their software. As a courtesty (not a legal requirement) I suggested that CV check with Josh before distributing tytools. I don't know if pvrupgrades did.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

oh, that and the whole selling units which have a hack installed whose sole purpose is service theft

[Hi8]

oh, that and the whole selling units which have a hack installed whose sole purpose is service theft

that is correct, he acknowledged that as a MISTAKE -- but please be clear in what you are saying.... Are you saying that what you have read in his description you feel his main selling point was service theft?



CV was including MFS_FTP. That software has a copywrite and Riley didn't authorize distribution. The copywrite notice is right before the instructions you need to read before you install the program. Very hard to miss. CV posts on many threads. Riley has made a point of getting his files out of Cobelli, sleepers tools and tivostuff. PVRupgrades is not including mfs_ftp, just tytools and tystudio.


So why didn't Sleeper get raked over the coals.... sounds like the only difference is the almighty $ attached to this. Sleeper acknowledged his mistake and all is forgotten, still being held up as a local hero here. (deservered I might add)

Yeah; perhaps Josh is fine with it? perhaps NOT. Tystudio - for some reason I thought that was under GPL -- so I guess you can make up a fancy name like "DVRchiver" so as to led the buyer to believe it's your's -- and just include the source code and GLP README and your all set! Cha-Ching! no money back the the original authors.

So you ALL may be correct by the letter of the law, but you'll have a hard time convincing ME of the moral difference.

It's obvious that DB will not be happy until he see's CV breaking rocks - for the rest of his life. To acknowledge you were wrong, doing your best to right the wrong; publicly appoligizing for it; Saying it will NEVER happen again. Just an't good enough.

It is VERY clear that CV can do/say anything that will satisfy the few that won't let this go. His punishment, has been determined by a lynch mob mentality - that being a "Tatoo-d Scarlet Letter" for life. And you know the tone of it sounds like they enjoy doing it.

[newbie]

I don't care if CV is selling the unit to people who are using hacked cards BUT FACE THE FACTS, Directv will sell and install a brand new unit for $99. It makes little sense to buy on E-Bay UNLESS you're not planning on subscribing the unit.

that is correct, he acknowledged that as a MISTAKE -- but please be clear in what you are saying.... Are you saying that what you have read in his description you feel his main selling point was service theft?

[djohn]

cop·y·right n. Abbr. c. or cop.
The legal right granted to an author, composer, playwright, publisher, or distributor to exclusive publication, production, sale, or distribution of a literary, musical, dramatic, or artistic work.

The word copyright is being tossed around alot here and I am no expert on the law but any software authored by anyone is a copyrighted work of that author. It doesn't matter if you put a copyright notice in the source, readme, wherever or not. If you only release binaries without even a readme it doesn't mean the work isn't copyrighted even if it doesn't say so, it still is copyrighted by him because he is the author.

I am also well aware that there is a difference between a legal copyright which is applied for to the government and a assumed copyright by simply being the author. Look to the bottom of the page, this page is copyrighted be DDB, is there a legal copyright applied and approved for? I doubt it but it is still a copyrighted work and would be even if it didn't say so at the bottom of the page.

[rc3105]

...
You really ought to square things with Riley, you really don't have a leg to stand on. He asked Dennis to remove mfs_ftp from tivostuff when he started asking for donations. You can't read the installation instructions without seeing the copyright notice yet you sold the program. Not sure if you owe Riley a check, contribution to his favorite charity or if the apology is sufficient BUT you really should square up...


allready pm'd captain 'n he's expressed a willingness to "square up" - a hd-tivo would square things nicely for me :p

seriously though, there's a lotta discussion in developer/irc & this thread seems to be the focal point for ddb sentiment. gotta jump through some hoops with ebay legal, finish up the incorporation paperwork & transfer sw ownership to it, talk to the folks that've contributed ideas/code, give my lawyer a day or three to get upto speed then see where things stand.

we'll work out something equitiable - I don't really want this to turn into a DMCA / copyright test case either. (the current terms of use cover my butt, but I know how nasty things will get if tivo/dtv are involved)


ps: the version sleeper included was originally released under the gpl, BUT, the actual copy included was corrupted by someone else in a way that invalidated the GPL and does NASTY things to 4.x+ tivos - best not to distribute an illegal corrupted copy of an obsolete version...

sleeper's image & tivostuff are great - soliciting tivostuff donations while vadim's trying to pay for ddb upgrades was just the proverbial straw

[newbie]

Really doesn't matter what the rest of us think as long as it's OK with you. If a hd-tivo is the going price for your program I'll have to stop using your program :)



allready pm'd captain 'n he's expressed a willingness to "square up" - a hd-tivo would square things nicely for me :p

[captain_video]

It makes little sense to buy on E-Bay UNLESS you're not planning on subscribing the unit.

Don't try and make sense of the mentality that runs rampant on ebay. People get caught up in bidding frenzies and end up paying way more than retail all the time just for the satisfaction of winning. How else would you explain why people routinely pay $50 or more for new P4 and P5 cards when

1. They're completely unhackable
2. They're available from DTV for only $20
3. They're completely worthless without a legit sub

With regard to DTivos purchased on ebay, many people have no clue how to hack their own units so the opportunity to get a unit that's already been hacked is extremely attractive and well worth the cost of admission. Another reason is to upgrade them in the way that I did and put them back up for resale to make a profit. My guess is that many people simply don't realize you can buy them new for $99.

Directv will sell and install a brand new unit for $99.

Tax and shipping charges are added plus you have to wait around for the installer to show up. I've had heard dozens of horror stories about botched installations so that's not exactly an attractive deal to many. I bought a $99 DSR7000 from DTV many months ago and I swear I'll never buy from them directly again. The installer was supposed to arrive between 8AM and noon but didn't arrive until after 5PM. I ended up burning a vacation day for this $99 deal. What really frosted me was the fact that all the installer had to do was take it out of the box and connect it to the cables I had already run for him. I would much rather have had DTV just ship me the unit so I could have installed it myself but they don't even make that an option. I've heard some stories where the installer arrived and refused to install the system because they didn't want to go through the trouble. Technically, they're supposed to install the antenna, if required, a new multi-switch (which I never received) and run all of the necessary coax cables. I'd pay more for a unit on ebay just to avoid this ordeal.

You really ought to square things with Riley, you really don't have a leg to stand on. He asked Dennis to remove mfs_ftp from tivostuff when he started asking for donations. You can't read the installation instructions without seeing the copyright notice yet you sold the program. Not sure if you owe Riley a check, contribution to his favorite charity or if the apology is sufficient BUT you really should square up.

Riley and I have already communicated with each other on this. Whatever is decided between us will stay between us.

[Hi8]

I don't care if CV is selling the unit to people who are using hacked cards BUT FACE THE FACTS, Directv will sell and install a brand new unit for $99. It makes little sense to buy on E-Bay UNLESS you're not planning on subscribing the unit.

keep your facts straight....

$99 will not buy you a DTIVO S2 with the original 40gig drive and and additional 120gig BDrive. --

And I don't think that includes a USB ethernet adapter. And it does require a contract agreement for service for 1 year, you've neglegted to add that cost in.

[captain_video]

ps: the version sleeper included was originally released under the gpl, BUT, the actual copy included was corrupted by someone else in a way that invalidated the GPL and does NASTY things to 4.x+ tivos - best not to distribute an illegal corrupted copy of an obsolete version...

FWIW, I didn't use the version of mfs_ftp included in Sleeper's tivoscript. I updated to the latest versions posted in the mfs_ftp thread. I wouldn't sell someone a DTivo that contained buggy software if I knew beforehand there was a problem with it.

[mrblack51]

that is correct, he acknowledged that as a MISTAKE -- but please be clear in what you are saying.... Are you saying that what you have read in his description you feel his main selling point was service theft?


there is no 'mistake' about it. he knew what he was doing, and has been warned and banned for similar reasons in the past. calling it a mistake is a cop out. besides, read the auction listing - he makes specific note that it has the hacked features, though attempting to carefully avoid why they are good. he knew exactly what he was doing, and now he is having to stand up to his actions...thats all.

So why didn't Sleeper get raked over the coals.... sounds like the only difference is the almighty $ attached to this. Sleeper acknowledged his mistake and all is forgotten, still being held up as a local hero here. (deservered I might add)

Yeah; perhaps Josh is fine with it? perhaps NOT. Tystudio - for some reason I thought that was under GPL -- so I guess you can make up a fancy name like "DVRchiver" so as to led the buyer to believe it's your's -- and just include the source code and GLP README and your all set! Cha-Ching! no money back the the original authors.

So you ALL may be correct by the letter of the law, but you'll have a hard time convincing ME of the moral difference.

It's obvious that DB will not be happy until he see's CV breaking rocks - for the rest of his life. To acknowledge you were wrong, doing your best to right the wrong; publicly appoligizing for it; Saying it will NEVER happen again. Just an't good enough.

It is VERY clear that CV can do/say anything that will satisfy the few that won't let this go. His punishment, has been determined by a lynch mob mentality - that being a "Tatoo-d Scarlet Letter" for life. And you know the tone of it sounds like they enjoy doing it.

um, that quote you are reffering to isnt mine...i think its from alphawolf.

[newbie]

keep your facts straight....

And it does require a contract agreement for service for 1 year, you've neglegted to add that cost in.

Actually that WAS MY EXACT point. The MAJOR reason for buying from E-Bay is buying a unit without a subscription requirement. The USB dongle that CV is selling goes for about $30 (full retail) and we all know the drive can be bought for under $100 after rebate.

I'll agree CV is being thorough in his description, including quality (good NIC) and seems to be giving backup CDs and some support.

Who CV sells to on E-Bay is of no interest to me. Plenty of us pay for our programming. I'm sure many people don't. CV and Riley both said they're reaching some kind of arrangement. That's good enough for me.

[Hi8]

the version sleeper included was originally released under the gpl,


Humm I didn't know you could revoke GPL?

If it's still under GPL, it sound like charging a fee for distribution is OK? At least that's what it sounds like to me... It also grants the person that has that license all the rights of the author, as long as the license stays intack and the source code in included in the distribution.

<see below extracted from Preamble...>

When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not
price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you
have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for
this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it
if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it
in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things.

To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid
anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights.
These restrictions translate to certain responsibilities for you if you
distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it.

For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether
gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that
you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the
source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their
rights.

[David Bought]

Humm I didn't know you could revoke GPL?

If it's still under GPL, it sound like charging a fee for distribution is OK?

An old version was GPL but the version that CV illegally distributed is not. Read the damn license file before you post something stupid next time.

[Hi8]

um, that quote you are reffering to isnt mine...i think its from alphawolf.


you are correct it was NOT your's it was from newbie. I have corrected my mistake, (was that a mistake? not sure anymore perhaps juast a F_UP) I hope someday I may be forgiven. :rolleyes:

<edit>

I would have apoligized but that doesn't seem to have any effect here. I'm sure someone will imply it was intential.

</edit>

[Hi8]

An old version was GPL but the version that CV illegally distributed is not. Read the damn license file before you post something stupid next time.

where do you get off TELLing me what I can a can not do? If I want to post something stupid I will! Just relpying to any of your posts constitutes THAT! I feel like a complete ***** after I press submit, knowing I just wasted more time.

<edit>
oh yeah... your forgot to mention the HACKS you authored again... Just a friendly reminder...

</edit>

[rc3105]

Really doesn't matter what the rest of us think as long as it's OK with you. If a hd-tivo is the going price for your program I'll have to stop using your program :)
lol - the current version is free to anyone that installs it & complies with the terms of use


# TERMS OF USE: personal (noncommercial) fair-use backup & restore
# This software may not be used for copywright infringment or any illegal
# purpose, bundled with any product, sold, distributed or redistributed
# under any circumstances on any media without express written consent.


that means you can archive/restore/post archives of aunt sally's birthday party but NOT ppv, Sopranos, etc

if you use it to transfer Stargate from the living room to the bedroom that's a question of fair-use between you & the sci-fi channel


here's where it gets sticky

as I understand things HMO is a $100 option from tivo & it's good for the life of the box - so theoretically a tivo with hmo on ebay with it is worth $100 more

mfs_ftp is both more & less usefull in that it works on any tivo but doesn't provide an onscreen method of selecting remote recordings (didn't want to step on tivos toes, yanno? - works nicely though)

is tivo + mfs_ftp worth $100 more?: not unless you're a complete moron (a minimum pc service call is what, $75. if the tech can't get bash in 20 mins with the info on ddb you don't want him touching your equipment in the first place)

is it worth more than without? certainly

how MUCH more is it worth? good question

do I want to slap the begeezus out of cv or grant a $75/box distribution license? dunno yet ;)

[David Bought]

Oops, I missed a good one. :D

It's obvious that DB will not be happy until he see's CV breaking rocks - for the rest of his life. To acknowledge you were wrong, doing your best to right the wrong; publicly appoligizing for it; Saying it will NEVER happen again. Just an't good enough.

The crux of the problem here is that CV repeatedly breaks the law, repeatedly issues fake "apologies", and repeatedly lies to try to justify his actions. He can tell all the fairy tales he wants about how "HU compatible" doesn't lead to service theft, on how legitimate DTV customers might want a "no contract" unit to avoid the mean bad DTV installer, on why he isn't planning to do anything illegal with the stack of access cards he's been accumulating for no reason, and how "he didn't know" what the big, obvious, capital letters "DO NOT DISTRIBUTE" in Riley's license doc meant. But it is obvious to even the most feeble minds (http://www.generationtivo.com) here that few if any of his transgressions can be chalked up to ignorance after all he has been through.

Normally I would call for a lifetime ban in a case like this, but after my conversation with SI this morning I am confident that he will have much bigger worries than that i