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blueman2
08-06-2004, 02:46 PM
Has anyone been able to successfully extract contect with the 5c flag enabled? I believe PPV has copy never enabled, and HBO has copy once enabled. I am curious of those videos are viewable after extraction?

mikemav
08-06-2004, 03:14 PM
I've done HBO and it works. Not sure about PPV.

moshmothma
08-06-2004, 04:25 PM
5c is meant for enforcement across a digital interface on cable boxes. I don't think this is implemented for sattelite.

malfunct
08-06-2004, 04:31 PM
5c is meant for enforcement across a digital interface on cable boxes. I don't think this is implemented for sattelite.

I think it is but the bigger key to why it just works with tytool is that the flag must be read by the editor and listened to. Tytool could care less and doesn't read the flag. They would have to encrypt the video for tytool to get screwed up, or change the headers I suppose.

jdiner
08-06-2004, 05:22 PM
I think it is but the bigger key to why it just works with tytool is that the flag must be read by the editor and listened to. Tytool could care less and doesn't read the flag. They would have to encrypt the video for tytool to get screwed up, or change the headers I suppose.
Actually I do listen to it, and you can even print it out in the right debug mode. But I summarily ignore it. If I wanted to I could turn that flag off in video and audio elementary streams as well so that it would never get passed on. But doing something like that could cause a little too much notice so it is left as is.

--jdiner

moshmothma
08-06-2004, 05:26 PM
5c is not implementated by Satellite companies. Its use is for enforcement of copy protection across IEE1394 (or Firewire) interfaces. The enforcement is in place to prohibit unfettered, lossless copies of digital material. It is in use by Cable companies today. Satellite companies today don't need 5c because
1. The don't deploy boxes with IEE1394 interfaces
2. They employ access cards to prohibit unauthorized access to digital material
3. Other digital interfaces, DVI, will be restricted by HDCP.

In any event, 5c is only enforced in Firewire interfaces. TyTool has nothing to do with it.

blueman2
08-07-2004, 05:57 PM
Moshmothma,

That is not what I have understood from reading the AVSForum for the past year. 5c is planned for satellite. Also, there was a Echostar box, the 921, which did have firewire 1394 with 5c support. It was beta tested successfully and the 5c worked on it. It does turn out they had a design problem and pulled out the firewire port, but other satellite boxes should have firewire soon (probably 6-12 month out).

jdiner,

So the material that is passed along does have a 5c flag in place still? So if it is copy never, then my JVC 30K DHVS deck which has 5c compliance will not record it?

Interesting.

moshmothma
08-07-2004, 07:27 PM
Not saying 5c can't be used for satellite. Just saying I was fairly sure it hasn't been since there are no satellite boxes with 1394 interfaces. If they should use firewire 5c would probably be the enforcement scheme.

redstone
08-09-2004, 01:39 PM
Alright. I got it. The fix was simple once I tracked it down.

Other than the missing data in the middle fo the dion clip I now get proper creation from each of the sample HDTivo files that I have.

So here it is, HD Tivo Test #3. Just the TyTool EXE once again.

Give it a try and let me know what results you get.

--jdiner

Is there any chance that you could post HDtytool in your other thread like you do so people could find it?

Now that the folks had the weekend to get the HDTIVO exploit working, they are starting to send me PM's of where to get HDTytool.

Since it is your code, it makes sense for it to have it's own home and not buried in this post.

I would appreciate it.

Thanks

redstone
08-09-2004, 01:49 PM
Now that I am able to download HD material myself thanks to the HDteams's SW exploit, I have had the opportunity to download and convert quite a number of 2 - 8 GB test recordings.

They convert great and with no complaints so a BIG thanks again for HDtytool.

I play them back with MYHD but I noticed an odd thing.

If I convert them to mpeg2, there is what I can only describe as a very subtle Gerkiness to the picture. You really notice it on scenic pans.

replace the g with j in gerk - I can't think of a better word and the auto bad language check is replacing with ****

If I convert them to VOB, the gerkiness is almost imperceptable (sp) but is still there.

Any idea what might be going on?

Anyone else notice this?

If you need want, I can find a clip where it is more obvious to see and upload it.

I know your plate is full so any help/ideas would be appreciated.

desplaines
08-10-2004, 12:40 AM
TyTool 9r16 has the code from HDTyTool 'built-in', doesn't it?

fixn278
08-10-2004, 12:49 AM
TyTool 9r16 has the code from HDTyTool 'built-in', doesn't it?

Yes, it does.

redstone
08-10-2004, 02:09 AM
TyTool 9r16 has the code from HDTyTool 'built-in', doesn't it?


Thanks. I never realized that.
There were 3 different versions of HDtytool that were released for testing and I did not know that the code had been rolled into tytool9r16.

redstone
08-10-2004, 02:15 AM
How about my other question above with regards to mpeg2 and VOB files?


Anyone have a MYHD card that can try out both types and replicate what I am seeing?

Also, MYHD does not FF or RW with either of these files.

I also tried PowerDVD XP and it does not display any Video with the High Def programs.

Thanks

desplaines
08-10-2004, 02:30 AM
No MyHD here, but I can try a couple of clips through the Fusion HD player into a 1920x1080p 60Hz Sony 24" monitor. I may not have time until tomorrow evening, though.

redstone
08-10-2004, 03:34 AM
Go back a few posts in this thread and you will see that we had no luck in converting the mpeg2 files into a transport stream format which is required to get the recording onto a D-VHS.

I had tried 3 programs.

Tonight, I fnally had a chance to try these tools again with this latest version of HDtytool.

None of them still produced a useful .ts file EXCEPT that now vlc does.

I Ran vlc on a High Def mpeg2 file (which was made with version 3 of hdtytool/tytoolr16)and generated a .ts file.

Then I ran Dvhstool to put that .ts file on D-VHS tape and played the tape back via MYHD - I have a MITS deck which does not have it's own decoder like the JVC's do so I needed to use MYHD.

To my now pleasant surprise, it works. I only did about a 10 minute test recording but it played back just fine from the D-VHS.

We now have a way of archiving HDTIVO High Def recordings to D-VHS tape which has been my ultimate goal.

To summarize:
You will need to download a copy of vlc and Dvhstool
Convert the mpeg2 file out of tytoolr16 to a .ts file with vlc
Run Dvhstool and have it write the .tsfile to the D-VHS

When you are done you now can:
Pop a tape in a JVC and it will play on your HD display of choice or pop a tape in the much cheaper MITS and play the tape back via MYHD (and other PC HDTV cards) to watch on you HD display of choice.


SUCCESS!!!!
A VERY BIG thanks to jdiner for this latest version!!

Now I can continue adding to my D-VHS library of HD movies made with the now silcenced DISH 5000 rig.



BTW, MYHD is now able to successfully play that .ts file and FF/RW works which as noted before, does NOT work with the mpeg file.
The verdict is still out on the gerkiness.
I am now writing a full length movie from HDMMV to a D-VHS tape and when I watch it tomorrow, I will report back what I see.


Way cool:)

jdiner
08-10-2004, 11:22 AM
So the material that is passed along does have a 5c flag in place still? So if it is copy never, then my JVC 30K DHVS deck which has 5c compliance will not record it?

Interesting.
I know little about the 5c stuff specifically. But there is a this is copyrighted flag in both the audio and the video streams. There are a few other security measures in place inside of an MPEG-2 file as well.

Just to be clear what I was trying to say is that I watch the flags, I pay careful attention to them as it casues differences but I do nothing to alter these flags.

I don't change them for many reasons, but what you should take away is that they are unchanged. If that causes problems there are other things that can be done to solve the problem but at the moment TyTool does nothing about it.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-10-2004, 11:24 AM
Is there any chance that you could post HDtytool in your other thread like you do so people could find it?
Guess I was never clear. The HDTyTool is the name I gave the test version here just to be clear what it was.

The changes are a part of TyTool proper. There will be no more HDTyTool releases as you will look to the main TyTool release for any upcoming fixes. So for everyone here and everyone there to get it just head on over to the first page of the TyTool thread.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-10-2004, 11:36 AM
I can't explain the visual skipping problems. I don't see them here. But my test clips are few and small.

I use PowerDVD for most of my playback and I do get video on that machine. I do not get video on an underpowered machine I tried to use first. So it could be that you are just right on the ragged edge when it comes to speed. It could also have something to do with the adaptive multiplexing in use.

--jdiner

redstone
08-10-2004, 12:50 PM
I can't explain the visual skipping problems. I don't see them here. But my test clips are few and small.

I use PowerDVD for most of my playback and I do get video on that machine. I do not get video on an underpowered machine I tried to use first. So it could be that you are just right on the ragged edge when it comes to speed. It could also have something to do with the adaptive multiplexing in use.

--jdiner

Now that it looks like I can archive to and playback from a D-VHS as noted above (I am currently recording to D-VHS a full 90 minute movie as a test), I guess i'll wait and see how the playback looks from the tape as well as wait to hear from any folks with a MYHD before asking you to look at a new,longer file.


As a data point:

I watched a 90 minute movie last night as a VOB file with MYHD and it was almost perfect but did exhibit that subtle gerkiness but not enough to make it unwatchable. The family could not even tell.

I played 5 minutes of the same movie converted as an mpeg2 and the family could tell.

It is that level of 'subtleness'.






As far as horsepower goes, that is not a problem. I am using a 3.0 Ghz P4 with the Intel Granite Bay chipset ASUS Mboard and a Radeon 9000.

Since I use MYHD to play my DVD's due to the fact that it upscales DVD's to 1080i, I had to load the freebee copy of Powerdvd XP and Windvd that came with my DVD drives so it may be a SW player version issue.

I am using PowerDVD XP Version 4.0 and WinDVD version 3.1

As a reminder, Powerdvd has audio but no video and Windvd crashes as soon as the program switches into High Def.

My test with the SW DVD players is 'Dead like Me' from Showtime HD and it has about 3 minutes of upcoming attractions in SD then the station switches to HD when 'Dead Like Me' starts.

blueman2
08-10-2004, 04:24 PM
We now have a way of archiving HDTIVO High Def recordings to D-VHS tape which has been my ultimate goal.

To summarize:
You will need to download a copy of vlc and Dvhstool
Convert the mpeg2 file out of tytoolr16 to a .ts file with vlc
Run Dvhstool and have it write the .tsfile to the D-VHS

When you are done you now can:
Pop a tape in a JVC and it will play on your HD display of choice or pop a tape in the much cheaper MITS and play the tape back via MYHD (and other PC HDTV cards) to watch on you HD display of choice.


SUCCESS!!!!


WOW!!! This is BIG news for me. I am a regular over at the AVSForum, and was one of those who used to have a Dish 5000 to record HDTV. When Echostar cancelled the firewire port of the 921, it killed any decent way to record satellite (except the expensive hacks like 169time, which do not seem very stable anyway).

Redstone, this is great! Now, per the discussion above, have you run into any issues with 5c implementation? Have you done any PPVs yet? Like moshmothma says, 5c probably is not even implemented in satellite yet since there are no 1394 capable boxes yet, but I am curious.

VERY cool! I need to get me a HD Tivo now!

redstone
08-10-2004, 04:55 PM
WOW!!! This is BIG news for me. I am a regular over at the AVSForum, and was one of those who used to have a Dish 5000 to record HDTV.

Redstone, this is great! Now, per the discussion above, have you run into any issues with 5c implementation?

I too was a DISH 5000 customer and since you are a regular at avsforum, you know that MYHD has trouble sometimes with tapes made with DVHStool.

I just ran into that at the 30 minute mark when playing back a tape I made with DVHSTOOL so I am still in the testing phase of this very last step.

As far as 5c goes, I don't know because I do not know if any of the stations on Directv are broadcasting the flag. I have been doing all my testing with HDMMV,SHOHD and DSCHD.

blueman2
08-10-2004, 05:38 PM
Thanks for blazing the trail with D-VHS support on this, Redstone. Have you tried just using the preview function on DVHSTool to watch the recordings made by the HD Tivo (after conversion to .ts by VLC)?

I have the JVC 30K DVHS deck, and it seems that anything DVHSTool can play in file preview mode, the JVC can record/play.

redstone
08-10-2004, 07:24 PM
Thanks for blazing the trail with D-VHS support on this, Redstone. Have you tried just using the preview function on DVHSTool to watch the recordings made by the HD Tivo (after conversion to .ts by VLC)?

I have the JVC 30K DVHS deck, and it seems that anything DVHSTool can play in file preview mode, the JVC can record/play.


I am still having some trouble with DVHStool working consistently which puzzles me.

Then I find a post that says Dvhstool expects constant bitrate transport streams and another that says the audio/video pids should be 11 and 14 for Dvhstool to work correctly!

I am getting really mixed up on those issues and to make things worse, I find out that the version of SW for MYHD has a bug and crashes when writing a .ts file to a tape. Heck, I thought it was the mpg from jdiner's tool which was then made into a .ts file by vlc which ws crashing MYHD.

This is giving me a headache

moshmothma
08-10-2004, 10:11 PM
Unfortunately, MYHD is one of the flakier apps out there for viewing HD (and otherwise). I have noticed artifacts and other subtle anomalies when using that software. My recommendation is not to use. Especially since there are so many better choices now. OnAireditor is great if you can get it - NVDVD 3.0 works quite well also; Zoom Player is cool - but you have to configure it - same as Windows Media Player (original) and finally VLC.
Using tape to archive is not ideal in my opinion. I would archive to much cheaper (and more reliable) DVDr. Tape will degrade and the JVC 30000 will have problems. Both are inevitable. Do dvdr now - make backups and look for dual layered media next year when it is cheaper.
Of course, I have been 'sanitizing' all of my recordings with TyTool. Really helps with playback.

moshmothma
08-10-2004, 10:17 PM
Hmm, interesting - Jdiner is hinting that there is some copyright enforcement in the stream - is it broadcast flag or 5c? If 5c, and you copy to a DVHS, depending on the flag - you may not be able to copy to anything again.

JDiner - what is the possibility for getting a TS muxer for TyTool since that output is widely recognized for HD viewing as the standard? Thanks

malfunct
08-10-2004, 10:41 PM
Hmm, interesting - Jdiner is hinting that there is some copyright enforcement in the stream - is it broadcast flag or 5c? If 5c, and you copy to a DVHS, depending on the flag - you may not be able to copy to anything again.

JDiner - what is the possibility for getting a TS muxer for TyTool since that output is widely recognized for HD viewing as the standard? Thanks

He mentioned one time that the likely hood of a transport stream muxer is very low probably near to none. Also processing of a transport stream (demuxing) he said probably would not be done.

jdiner
08-10-2004, 10:51 PM
JDiner - what is the possibility for getting a TS muxer for TyTool since that output is widely recognized for HD viewing as the standard? Thanks
Right now it would be a fair amount of work to solve a problem for a pretty select few. As such it is of fairly little interest to me. I have looked at what it would take to add an TS import system as well. But again my focus is TyStreams from a tivo and the rest of this is all kind of a bit off of the beaten path.

--jdiner

rc3105
08-11-2004, 12:01 AM
anybody know if there's such a creature as a DVHS deck with usb ports?

direct ty <-> ts extract / insert w/o involving a pc would be pretty darn handy...

blueman2
08-11-2004, 12:57 AM
RC3105,

No, just IEEE 1394. Only 1394 has the required 5c compliance to allow recording of protected content. Not to say USB2.0 could not be done, it simply has not been and probably will not be.

malfunct
08-11-2004, 01:16 AM
RC3105,

No, just IEEE 1394. Only 1394 has the required 5c compliance to allow recording of protected content. Not to say USB2.0 could not be done, it simply has not been and probably will not be.

Not to mention that DV transfer is spec'd over IEEE 1394 and all the digital camcorders speak this as well as all the stand alone decks I've seen. I think you are right that its the standard and we won't see USB using it.

Maybe a firewire over USB adapter? lol

jdiner
08-11-2004, 01:26 AM
A few people have begun to PM me looking for some kind of magic fix to a wierd problem only they are seeing. For one it was something about OTA channels and things behaving oddly. It was my impression that HDTivos did not record OTA but once again only from satellites. So the context is off in some way to start with.

Further I have done pretty much all I can with what I have. Just like when I first started working on DTivo stuff looking at the audio, yeah way way way back when, I needed one to really get enough data to make things work right. Coupled with the fact that my home network can't support massive downloads and HiDef streams tend to be huge I am a bit hamstrung.

When it comes to HDTivos I fear the same will be true. However collecting a few hundred dollars for a DTivo is a very different process than trying to collect ~$1k for an HDTivo. (People haven't actually donated that much total in the several years I have been working on all of this...)

This puts the burden on the rest of you that have one and the time to really work things over. Looking for problems and finding the smallest dataset possible to be used in trouble shooting.

I don't know what more I can say. My experience with HiDef is limited to pretty much what I did for TyTool so far. I have an understanding of it at the MPEG-2 level and nothing beyond that. You talk about tapes and other hardware recently and I have no idea about the whats and the whys on it. Couple that with some pretty serious feature requests and it is getting to be a bit much for me at this point.

Just kind of a heads up. The easy part is done. The major cut over to start handling files. The hard part is finding yet another set of idiosyncracies in the data and deciding what if any futher features really add value.

Also please don't start by PM'ing my looking for help. I probably know the most about the TyStream files in this group and the absolute least about HiDef work in general. Post somewhere looking for help from those that are in the know...

--jdiner

rc3105
08-11-2004, 01:47 AM
Not to mention that DV transfer is spec'd over IEEE 1394 and all the digital camcorders speak this as well as all the stand alone decks I've seen. I think you are right that its the standard and we won't see USB using it.

Maybe a firewire over USB adapter? lol
actually got a couple of those around here somewhere, didn't work worth a darn but oh well. wish I could get source for the drivers or remember where they got put. been using digital8 as a cheap video walkman by doing ty -> dv & thinking about springing for a new camera with a usb port to eliminate the pc middlman. DVHS sounds handy, thought perhaps somebody offered one with usb, everything else seems to have it these days


jdiner:

hr10-250's can record OTA if it's digital, not old style analog ntsc though

desplaines
08-11-2004, 03:26 AM
Here are some updates on file and player quality:

-I used a wide-screen CRT monitor set to 1920x1200, 60 Hz.

-Video-source material plays perfectly smooth here in .mpg or .vob format, using VLC v0.72 as the player (for mpg or vob), Zoom Player v3.1 (mpg) or the Fusion player v2.61 (included with the Fusion HDTV tuner board)(mpg only). MPEGs seem to 'look' a little cleaner, but that might just be the players. Each player I tried handles freeze-frames and deinterlacing a bit differently.

-Converting either a .vob or an .mpg into a .ts results in a definite loss of quality in my eyes, in either VLC or Fusion, but thet still played smoothly.

-I also tried a HiPix hardware HD board, but it had big stuttering/freezing problems with the .ts files I tried (its native format).

Tomorrow, I will play with some film-source material. Jdiner, your program is fantastic!

desplaines
08-11-2004, 04:48 AM
I tried some film-source material, and it also played smoothly in .mpg format in VLC and Fusion.

jdiner
08-11-2004, 11:49 AM
hr10-250's can record OTA if it's digital, not old style analog ntsc though
Ah... Good to know. Makes sense. There would still be no recompression just a seperate parser for the digital signal. I wonder if the TyStream structure looks different than the stuff coming from the DirecTV sats.

--jdiner

moshmothma
08-11-2004, 01:16 PM
Jdiner - The HDTivo does record OTA broadcasts as well. Many stations broadcast HD material this way. Thanks

redstone
08-11-2004, 02:21 PM
Unfortunately, MYHD is one of the flakier apps out there for viewing HD (and otherwise). I have noticed artifacts and other subtle anomalies when using that software. My recommendation is not to use. Especially since there are so many better choices now. OnAireditor is great if you can get it - NVDVD 3.0 works quite well also; Zoom Player is cool - but you have to configure it - same as Windows Media Player (original) and finally VLC.


Using tape to archive is not ideal in my opinion. I would archive to much cheaper (and more reliable) DVDr. Tape will degrade and the JVC 30000 will have problems. Both are inevitable. Do dvdr now - make backups and look for dual layered media next year when it is cheaper.
Of course, I have been 'sanitizing' all of my recordings with TyTool. Really helps with playback.

You left out one important little tidbit about MYHD and it's other HW variants.
It is a HW card that has component or DVI out for sending the picture to REAL HDTV equipment NOT little,tiny PC monitors. It also has all the standard ATSC resolutions and timings as well as some custom ones for the fixed pixel displays that have oddball resolutions.


If one wants to use ANY of those SW players that you just mentioned on a real HDTV set, you have to muck around with custom timing & resolutions from the video card on your PC and the TV picture is rarely sized properly.
Also, depending upon the type of input connection that you have, you may need to buy a transcoder.
Anyone who has used Powerstrip knows what a PITA that can be.




I agree partially with you about D-VHS.
Today, I can archive a full 2 hour (~17GB) movie on quality S-VHS stock with my D-VHS deck for about $3.00 and I do not have to get up 4 or 5 times to swap DVDR's. The price goes up to around $7.00 if you choose to use D-VHS stock.

Next year when the dual layered DVD's are available, that would then be my choice of archive medium but until an HD DVD player is available, it is still not a viable solution unless one uses a PC HDTV card like MYHD or one of the variants which can read high def data on a DVDR.

DVD's have been out long enough now that it has been discovered that they are subject to rot (remember the old laserdisks?) so your argument about D-VHS starts to fall apart for long term archiving.
A DVD with rot will be TOTALLY unplayable because the player expects a good file system whereas all that would happen on a D-VHS tape (assuming it did degrade) would be a few spots of pixelation.
Granted, They are re-examining the manufacturing techinueq's so the rot problem should be rectified in the near future.


I can see from your post that you live in a PC based world so I can see why you would think of SW players.
I use the PC (actually two of them) merely as a means to host an HDTV card to feed my Projector to a 100" screen and my bedroom LCD TV as well as transfer HD material via firewire to my D-VHS.
Besides of course, as the interface and processor for the HDTIVO.



I am not interested in starting a debate about this so this my only response I will make on your post.
I only responded because I started this thread to see about pursuing extraction on the HD-TIVO for the purposes of archiving and viewing on True High Definition equipment with today's technology and doing so simply. This means D-VHS and PC HW decoders. I did start NOT this thread because I wanted to watch movies on my PC or shuffle stacks of DVDR's around.

Your post has already generated 2 PM's from people asking me how to display the output of Windows Media player on their HDTV set - I suspect you have also since this thread is rather popular judging by the hit count.

blueman2
08-11-2004, 02:48 PM
BTW, MYHD is now able to successfully play that .ts file and FF/RW works which as noted before, does NOT work with the mpeg file.
The verdict is still out on the gerkiness.
I am now writing a full length movie from HDMMV to a D-VHS tape and when I watch it tomorrow, I will report back what I see.


Way cool:)

redstone,

The gerkiness you are talking about is sometimes due to poorly formed GOP structure. There are programs which will fix this; I need to look back through AVSForum to find them.

As I said elsewhere, I have a JVC 30K unit, and would like to test out how the converted .ts files play on it. I do not have the HD Tivo yet, but if this works out well, I will probably take the leap since they are now becoming more available. I also have the HiPix card, and would like to test on that too.

Would you be able to provide a short 10 second clip of the .ts file as it comes out of Tytool for me to play with? I have an FTP you could upload to or if you have an FTP, I can download from that.

PM me if you can do that.

moshmothma
08-11-2004, 04:50 PM
I am not interested in starting a debate about this so this my only response I will make on your post.
I only responded because I started this thread to see about pursuing extraction on the HD-TIVO for the purposes of archiving and viewing on True High Definition equipment with today's technology and doing so simply. This means D-VHS and PC HW decoders. I did start NOT this thread because I wanted to watch movies on my PC or shuffle stacks of DVDR's around.

Your post has already generated 2 PM's from people asking me how to display the output of Windows Media player on their HDTV set - I suspect you have also since this thread is rather popular judging by the hit count.

Redstone, I agree with not debating the point because there is no need to debate - let's just share info! There are some advantages to tape and some to the PC. I do archive everything to DVDr but movies I watch from my local Hard drive. I have no need for tape and simply wanted to offer an alternative that is far more flexible (but definetly more complex). Although, MYHD has a more simplistic method for scaling, PC Scaling is very flexible and becoming easier all the time. Both ATI and NVidia offer drivers that natively scale to 720p and 1080i. Powerstrip is not needed. However, as I said PC playback on my 57" Hitachi via some of those other apps is FAR superior to MyHD and, is mainly, more flexible. Most video cards today have DVI outputs. Even though you don't really need it so much anymore, Powerstrip is the most versatile app for custom timings. Also, I use the color controls to get things just were I want them and can apply these by application. Different codecs offer different playback and some are superior to others. Usually, this is personal preference but DVHS playback locks you into an app. Additionally, I can apply post processing filtering to my HighDef playback which greatly enhances even HD!! I can use sharpening, I can control the color space, I can use denoise filters etc... None of these things are possible through MyHD.
As far as reliability is concerned, DVDr will prove more reliable than tape, and a decent computer will prove more reliable than our JVC 30000 (which is notorious for problems). I didn't mean to imply any of this was perfect - just IMO preferable.
Anyway, I am glad to share info. Anyone interested in more info should go to avsforum.com. This thread is worthwile on many levels but I hope we don't dismiss alternatives.
Thanks for your efforts to drive this particular application (and thread)!

jdiner
08-12-2004, 09:56 AM
I have a few thoughts on the gerky playback and what can be done about it.

Someone recently theorized that it was improper GOP structure. That is not the case here. Mux'ing is just the packaging of the Elementary Stream data into small managable chunks.

If all it takes for it to go away or at least to improve "enough" is to change mux'ing format then it is an issue with how things were mux'ed rather than a GOP problem which is part of the Video Elementary Stream which is created once at the compression stage itself.

The hardest part for me is that I can't see these portions right now. I don't see any playback issues in what I have but then I am also using standard software playback to see what is going on and I can't help but think that this has something todo with the hardware in question. Which means that it is going to be relatively tedious to try and find and fix.

When I saw it before a long time ago, i.e. when I first started the mux'er, I found that the problem then was buffer management. I think we are still have some buffer management issues for the HD playback. Probably packing up a bit too much audio a bit too quickly.

--jdiner

mattdb
08-12-2004, 10:26 AM
I am just getting back into this now that I have the HDTiVo. I am seeing all kinds of ****y play back, no matter what software I use. PowerDVD just gives me a blank screen with audio. I get audio and video out of VLC, Media Player and Media Player Classic. VLC seems to be the smoothest of them all. I am also seeing audio sync issues. This may be a factor of my software playback though when I am advancing thru the mpg.

I am going to keep at and see what I can find out.

I am running an AMD 2200 with 1GB ram.

matt

redstone
08-12-2004, 04:07 PM
I am just getting back into this now that I have the HDTiVo. I am seeing all kinds of ****y play back, no matter what software I use. PowerDVD just gives me a blank screen with audio. I get audio and video out of VLC, Media Player and Media Player Classic. VLC seems to be the smoothest of them all. I am also seeing audio sync issues. This may be a factor of my software playback though when I am advancing thru the mpg.

I am going to keep at and see what I can find out.

I am running an AMD 2200 with 1GB ram.

matt

There goes another damn detailed response that I wrote thanks to the submit timing out.

Short version cause I am not writing for another half hour:

Please go here:
http://www.manzanitasystems.com/

and download their trialware free mpeg2 analyzer programs on the .mpgs that you have generated. Those tools say there are errors in the structure.

desplaines
08-13-2004, 01:46 AM
More file/decoder/format test results (some of these duplicate what redstone has already posted, but I can confirm those results):

-Through a MyHD, an .mpg file stutters continuously (it is 'gerky'). A .vob file is much better, but has an occasional 'blip'-loss of smoothness (like 'dropped frames', maybe?). No fast-forward/rewind abilities.

-Also through a MyHD, a .ts file (from VLC, whether the original was .mpg or .vob) also looks good except for brief non-smooth spots as above. The non-smooth spots are the same on each play. FF/Rew work. Changing MyHD to certain aspect ratios 'on the fly' makes the screen fill with green garbage but it recovers if you go back to some of the other ratios. A HiPix .ts file, by comparison, can be changed to any aspect ratio while playing.

-Unlike my results in VLC or Fusion play, my .ts files look every bit as good in MyHD as the original .vob did.

-Playing a .ts file via DVHSTool through IEE1394/'FireWire' out of a JVC 30K VCR's component outputs, results in a 'perfect' play-no stutters or gerkiness at all! No FF/rewind, though.

'Bottom line' to me, right now, is that we need a better MPEG-to-TS converter, one that gets the PIDs and other details right.

desplaines
08-13-2004, 02:05 AM
I did a quick re-play of the same .ts file through the Fusion player, now that I knew where to find the stutters, and I see them in the same spots as on the MyHD play. Also, changing monitor refresh rate and resolution (from 1920x1200 60Hz to 1600x1000 76Hz) made no difference. I should point out, though, that you 'have to be really looking for problems' to see these flaws, in my opinion.

redstone
08-13-2004, 08:49 AM
More file/decoder/format test results (some of these duplicate what redstone has already posted, but I can confirm those results):

A) -Through a MyHD, an .mpg file stutters continuously (it is 'gerky'). A .vob file is much better, but has an occasional 'blip'-loss of smoothness (like 'dropped frames', maybe?). No fast-forward/rewind abilities.


B) -Unlike my results in VLC or Fusion play, my .ts files look every bit as good in MyHD as the original .vob did.

C) -Playing a .ts file via DVHSTool through IEE1394/'FireWire' out of a JVC 30K VCR's component outputs, results in a 'perfect' play-no stutters or gerkiness at all! No FF/rewind, though.

D) 'Bottom line' to me, right now, is that we need a better MPEG-to-TS converter, one that gets the PIDs and other details right.

A) That is odd. On my system, with .mpg and .vob files from Tytoolr16, FF works with MYHD.

B) Please explain - are you referring to what you see if you play the .ts file made from a .mpg file with VLC or a .vob file?

C) I have different results.
I watched a D-VHS movie from hdnet (Obsession) last night made with D-VHS tool/HDtytoolR16/VLC.
I use a MITS deck that needs the MYHD to do the decoding.


The gerkiness is VERY obvious on panning scenes. For example, there is a scene where the camera pans across the interior of a church and the picture was really gerky.
I saw this on every scene where the camera panned and since a lot of this film takes place in Rome, you can imageine that there was a lot of scenic panning.

I can spot the gerkiness on non-panning scenes but you do have to really look for it.

I synced up the HDTIVO and the Tape so I could swich back and forth for A/B purposes. FF/RW works on the MITS with this tape cause I needed it to get both shows in sync.
What was interesting is that I could see that the tape was slowly falling behind the HDTIVO and by the end if this 1:40 movie, they were off by about a minute.

This movie was an oddball resolution as it was 1280 x 1080 reported by MYHD but I could tell no diference in PQ between the D-VHS made from a .ts file and the HDTIVO.


D) I am not sure why that is your conclusion. The analysis tools that I downloaded in my post above say that the mpeg2 files has error's in it's format and we see that VOB files are smoother than mpeg2 files.

VOB files from a DVD or mpeg2 files made with HDTVtompeg2 are perfectly smooth in MYHD.

jdiner
08-13-2004, 10:50 AM
I am running an AMD 2200 with 1GB ram.

I get the same behaviour on my slower machines. From what I have read and seen this is just nowhere near enough horsepower for HD stream playback.

--jdiner

malfunct
08-13-2004, 10:53 AM
I get the same behaviour on my slower machines. From what I have read and seen this is just nowhere near enough horsepower for HD stream playback.

--jdiner

What I've read (and tested with some video clips I have) the hard drive, memory and video card have more to do with playback quality than the proc speed. My pc at work has dual 1ghz PIII xeon's with geforce 2 and probably an ata 66 hard drive and it is gerky on playback but mostly with disk queuing. At home I have an ata 100 hard drive and radeon 8500 with athlon 3000+ and playback is better but still gerks. I've also been told that for HD video its important to have fastAGP writes enabled which is off by default on most machines (in fact my home machine doesn't even support it even though the machine is quite new).

jdiner
08-13-2004, 11:11 AM
What I've read (and tested with some video clips I have) the hard drive, memory and video card have more to do with playback quality than the proc speed.
The reason I was suspecting proc speed was I have a ton of software based decoders that I use in testing things. I can turn off display and monitor buffer usage and decoding time etc... All of this was part of the development of TyTool, GopEditor etc...

In the 2 machines I have been using for this I have the same motherboard, ram, HDs, etc... The only thing that changed was one machine was an XP 2600+ and one was an XP 2200+. The 2600 is barely enough to keep decoding going correctly. The 2200 falls behind a little at every frame until you get a "gerk" and the decoder tosses a frame "because it's PTS is now behind the current SCR" and it just jumps forward a bit to get to a point where things line up properly and slowly the process starts again.

Using PowerDVD on the 2200, it's decoder is sweet but not the fastest I have seen and to be honest the rendering engine is way way to slow..., you almost never get a video frame to display because it is always behind. On the slightly faster CPU I get almost every frame as it is just that little bit faster.

But I digress.

None of this really solve the 'gerking'. I have been thinking about what would and looking over various streams of data. I think I can solve it. It is just going to take a fair amount of work. :(

--jdiner

jdiner
08-13-2004, 11:17 AM
The 'gerking' way back when on Series I standard DTivo streams had to do with the field issues. One that had RFF and TFF flags in use could cause issues it altered things too much. That was long since resolved on those and I have assumed the proper fixes carry over. But I have not verified yet whether the flags in the new format Ty files actually line up. I suppose I should.

The hardest part in dealing with this right now is that the various players can be the cause. Given that the other converter produces a working file I fear that there is something TyTool is still doing that things don't like. In looking at the other output files they are wrong in certain ways but would seem to be "liked" more regardless.

This is gonna take awhile and I have limited time at the moment.

--jdiner

sanderton
08-13-2004, 11:47 AM
M$ reckon to play back 720p files with WMP10 you need a 2.4GHz P4 and to do 1080i you need a 3GHz.

desplaines
08-13-2004, 05:14 PM
A few clarifications:


Originally Posted by desplaines
More file/decoder/format test results (some of these duplicate what redstone has already posted, but I can confirm those results):

A) -Through a MyHD, an .mpg file stutters continuously (it is 'gerky'). A .vob file is much better, but has an occasional 'blip'-loss of smoothness (like 'dropped frames', maybe?). No fast-forward/rewind abilities.
--I may have got this wrong. The .vob may have allowed FF and/or rewind, but I thought the .mpg allowed neither.

B) -Unlike my results in VLC or Fusion play, my .ts files look every bit as good in MyHD as the original .vob did.
--I tried a '.ts converted from .mpg' as well as a '.ts converted from .vob'. Each appears to have slightly more visible artifacts than the original .mpg or .vob when played in VLC or Fusion. When played in MyHD, the artifacts are equal to the originals. These comparisons were done on only a few spots in one specific HD program, so it certainly may not be a true indication of a real 'trend'.

C) -Playing a .ts file via DVHSTool through IEE1394/'FireWire' out of a JVC 30K VCR's component outputs, results in a 'perfect' play-no stutters or gerkiness at all! No FF/rewind, though.
--The critical difference in this setup is the actual use of the JVC VCR's decoders and A/D conversion, I think. With systems like the 169time HD recordings, these JVC VCRs seem to have the most 'forgiving' or 'robust' HD-MPEG decoders according to what I have read or been told, and this result seems to help 'prove that', at least on this one file.

D) 'Bottom line' to me, right now, is that we need a better MPEG-to-TS converter, one that gets the PIDs and other details right.
--After reading more, I see that the errors are in the original files and not created (nor fixed) in the conversion done by VLC. Based on my experiences with the HiPix, I suspect that its MPEG decoder is the 'least forgiving' of all that I have seen, so the desire for 'better .ts files' would be so they would work with such 'picky' MPEG decoders.

desplaines
08-14-2004, 01:26 AM
I found another setup that plays at least the same test file (which is a series of HDNet previews, from before a Sheryl Crow concert) smoothly. It is PowerDVD version 5, with 'hardware acceleration' disabled. With that setup, the file plays smoothly, and with hardware acceleration enabled, the screen has white flashes in the spots where other programs just 'stutter'.

This is on an Asus A7N8X Deluxe/Athlon 2500+/WinXP/512MB setup.

The one drawback I can see, is that PowerDVD takes about a minute to load the whole 6.5GB file for the complete concert, and I am sure long movies will be worse.

redstone
08-14-2004, 08:29 AM
I found another setup that plays at least the same test file (which is a series of HDNet previews, from before a Sheryl Crow concert) smoothly. It is PowerDVD version 5, with 'hardware acceleration' disabled. With that setup, the file plays smoothly, and with hardware acceleration enabled, the screen has white flashes in the spots where other programs just 'stutter'.

This is on an Asus A7N8X Deluxe/Athlon 2500+/WinXP/512MB setup.

The one drawback I can see, is that PowerDVD takes about a minute to load the whole 6.5GB file for the complete concert, and I am sure long movies will be worse.

Have you tried WinDVD? That works and does not need any load time.
How about Theatertek?

I sure don't want to have to go back to custom T&R's out of my Radeon, though.



OT but a question. When I got this HDTIVO and activated the HD Pack, I could not figure out why HDMMV looked really good and HDNET not so hot (for High Def).
I noticed that everything I am converting from HDNET and playing on MYHD shows a resolution of 1280x 1080i whereas DSCHD/HDMMV,etc. shows 1920x1080i in the info display on MYHD.

Anyone else spot that?

mattdb
08-14-2004, 08:56 PM
WINDVD plays my mpg's just wonderfully on my machines!!!

Matt

jdiner
08-14-2004, 11:37 PM
The one drawback I can see, is that PowerDVD takes about a minute to load the whole 6.5GB file for the complete concert, and I am sure long movies will be worse.
It is the opposite for me. PowerDVD comes right up and WinDVD takes forever to even open the starting blank window. Wonder if it has something to do with the various versions.

--jdiner

redstone
08-15-2004, 04:14 PM
Some interesting results with mpegs made with tytoolr16 and played with MYHD

1) Sometimes when I convert a file, FF and RW work on the resultant file and othertimes after conversion,FF and RW do NOT work.
Hence why desplaines and I am seeing different results.

2) Play this mpeg file through MYHD but do not hit pause or anything and it is smooth. Start playing it and hit Pause/Play and it is really gerky.

Pay close attention to the wall and you will see what I mean:
http://southriver.web.aplus.net/

Do a "save target as" in IE on the "test mpeg2 file" link


FF and RW do not work on this file.
It is almost like there is something in the file format that makes the decoder in MYHD go wacko.

jdiner
08-15-2004, 11:03 PM
Do a "save target as" in IE on the "test mpeg2 file" link

FF and RW do not work on this file.
It is almost like there is something in the file format that makes the decoder in MYHD go wacko.
Sorry I don't see a wall...

--jdiner

desplaines
08-16-2004, 03:11 AM
Have you tried WinDVD? That works and does not need any load time.
How about Theatertek?

I sure don't want to have to go back to custom T&R's out of my Radeon, though.
I do not have WinDVD 5 to try currently (but I hope to find it from my usual 'bargain computer show' sources soon), and Theatertek is just plain 'not in my plans'.

These 'software decoder' results will be of interest mainly to users of fixed-pixel or other progressive-scan displays, as opposed to actual 1080i HDTV sets. Using an interlaced output pretty much ruins video-play quality from Windows machines, unless they really did fix that 'interlaced overlay' problem in a recent driver.

mikemav
08-16-2004, 09:53 AM
Speaking of Theatertek, I heard recently that the next major release will also play MyHD files. By this I assume they mean .ts. It will be interesting to see if this can play HD VOBs and MPEGs too. Better yet, a number of us should contact the developers over there and ask them to look at playing .ty TiVo files natively. Since MPlayer can do it, I am sure it would be possible in the future. I agree with most here that software decoding on full res HD files is not quite there yet (which is why I like MyHD), but as PCs get faster and faster, this may be a possibility. I wish MIT (the developers of MyHD) would try to add support for playback of .ty files in future releases, but I was told this was not likely at all.

jdiner
08-16-2004, 11:45 AM
Ty files are odd in that they are not standard mpeg files nor even close. look at all the work that went into getting a proper and accurate split. A terrible pain to pull off actually.

The underlying data being packaged is MPEG-2 elementary stream data but it is like saying I have working on Volkswagon rabbits, so obviously I can work properly on a BMW. They are after all both German cars right....

Not trying to knock what the people working on MPlayer did, or even the people at MyHD, but trying to explain why when it looks so simple it isn't necessarily so.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-16-2004, 11:48 AM
So when I downloaded and played the recently posted test MPEG. It has cycling visuals in the background but played smoothly here with PowerDVD. Apparently it has some issues for others using different playback engines.

So it got me to thinking about MyHD, or whatever that tools is actually called. So I wanted to ask about it. What is it? Can it be used all on a PC or does it require some kind of a TV out card?

What I am wondering is if I can use these other tools on the equipment I have to try and find the problem?

I don't have a projector TV of any kind. I have a 9 year old JVC 27" TV. I have friends with projectors and what not but none who would let me take it home not even for a few days... :)

--jdiner

borghe
08-16-2004, 12:41 PM
I see lots of talk on here with shows from HBO, NBC, HDNet, etc... I also see one glaring consistency.. 1080i. Has anyone successfully done anything with shows in 720p? I have checked material from HBO (Six Feet Under) and NBC (Olympics) and all work in TyTools and TyShow reasonably well..

but 720p stations I haven't been able to do anything with. none of the ty's will play with the TyShow filter (tried samples off of ABC, FOX, and ESPNHD), none of them will keyframe correctly in TyTools, and none of them will mux to mpeg..

Yes I am not overly technical in this post but I just want to start the ball rolling by finding out if anyone has successfully done anything with 720p video.

so far the only thing that has worked is extracting the tmf and reinserting it which works perfectly.

edit - hmm.. it may be my system.. doing more investigating.. tyshow and vserver are now working fine with 720p stuff.. it seems to just be tytools which now on my system has stopped working with everything... :\

redstone
08-16-2004, 02:25 PM
Sorry I don't see a wall...

--jdiner

My apologies.

I don't know what happened when I uploaded it yesterday but you got a short file.
I just downloaded it and it is only 17 MB when it should have been 243MBytes.

I am re-uploading it now and it will be done by around 5:00 pm EDT.

redstone
08-16-2004, 02:28 PM
So when I downloaded and played the recently posted test MPEG. It has cycling visuals in the background but played smoothly here with PowerDVD. Apparently it has some issues for others using different playback engines.

So it got me to thinking about MyHD, or whatever that tools is actually called. So I wanted to ask about it. What is it? Can it be used all on a PC or does it require some kind of a TV out card?

What I am wondering is if I can use these other tools on the equipment I have to try and find the problem?

I don't have a projector TV of any kind. I have a 9 year old JVC 27" TV. I have friends with projectors and what not but none who would let me take it home not even for a few days... :)

--jdiner


MYHD is a HW based PC HDTV card.

You can use it to watch HDTV on your PC display or feed a HDTV set.

redstone
08-16-2004, 07:01 PM
The file that I uploaded was made with the first choice of Multiplex in the menu - NOT the new format option.

I found that if I used the new format VOB or mpeg option, I got a file that FF and RW worked and was nearly perfect during playback.

By nearly perfect, I mean that I converted the entire movie (The Cincinatti Kid) into a new format VOB and I sat down last night to watch the whole thing with MYHD.
The video was smooth but at around the 18 minute mark , I lost the audio.

By this time I was into the movie so I just switched to watching it on the HDTIVO cause I have not let the TIVO delete that movie and will play with it some more tonight.

If you go back to my website, http://southriver.web.aplus.net/
you will see that I have renamed the links and uploaded both versions of that mpeg file.

Can you please see what is different about these 2 files?
Same source data, same tytoolr15,just used each of the 2 multiplex options.


The second one is uploading as I write this so it will take a while to finish.

Thanks

redstone
08-16-2004, 07:34 PM
I was playing with that new format KID file in MYHD and found that if I had MYHD Fast forward more than about 30 seconds by using the slider bar on it's gui,I lost audio and could not get it back.

Very repeatable.

I ran the file through vlc to generate a Tarnsport Stream file just for yucks and to my VERY pleaseant surprise, I could move back and forth in the movie using the slider and it did NOT lose the audio.

VLC is correcting something in that file.

Next test is to grab a new recording from the HDTIVO, convert to new format VOB, run it through VLC to generate a transport stream file and watch the whole movie.

We may have a workaround.

I will report back when I have done this test.
It will be tomorrow cause I have not extracted anything that I have not already watched and it takes about an hour and 1/2 to extract a movie at 1.5 MBytes/sec.

If someone with a MYHD card can try this also, it would be appeciated.

jdiner
08-16-2004, 08:16 PM
MYHD is a HW based PC HDTV card.

You can use it to watch HDTV on your PC display or feed a HDTV set.
Ah hardware. I was afraid of that.

If someone has a spare and wants to loan it to me in the short term I will take a look at what it does and does not like. But I won't be buying one in the short term and without one don't know what is or isn't making it happy. Anyway once that is known I would send it back.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-16-2004, 08:20 PM
I ran the file through vlc to generate a Tarnsport Stream file just for yucks and to my VERY pleaseant surprise, I could move back and forth in the movie using the slider and it did NOT lose the audio.
Yeah the new format is much more "liked" than the old format by other systems. I turned the first format to the 4 hardware DVD players I have and other systems get a little picky about it.

The problem with the new format is that the SCR clock gets way way off. The fix in that is to do what MyHD did. Which is to force the clock to stop counting forward during a data write so that things always stay pretty well aligned.

I have been planning a special muxer for HD streams that would do just that.

--jdiner

borghe
08-16-2004, 08:54 PM
ok, none of my OTA files now work in TyTool. I have extracted and muxed a bunch of sat files including 720p from ESPN (GO PACKERS!!!) but nothing from OTA is working. It always comes back with:

Sorry... Failed to get the first 10 initial chunks...
Have to have at least that many to start the analysis phase..

have plenty of log files both of successful SAT recordings and failed OTA recordings. Anyone else having problems or ideas? Note that the OTA files play perfectly and with perfect sync using the TyShow filter.

If there is anything I Can do to provide more information let me know.

Cheezmo
08-16-2004, 09:03 PM
ok, none of my OTA files now work in TyTool. I have extracted and muxed a bunch of sat files including 720p from ESPN (GO PACKERS!!!) but nothing from OTA is working. It always comes back with:

Sorry... Failed to get the first 10 initial chunks...
Have to have at least that many to start the analysis phase..

I had the exact same problem and have provided jdiner an example.

borghe
08-16-2004, 10:10 PM
if jdiner wants more examples I have a number of 200-400MB examples and can produce tons more on demand. I have tried many random samples across all local stations, multiple per station and it comes out to the same result.

jdiner - if you need anything let me know. I have a T1 at work I can host the files on.. It'll actually be a 20Mbps Ethernet connection in a week or two if you want longer samples.

mikemav
08-16-2004, 11:26 PM
I had the exact same problem and have provided jdiner an example.

Someone please check Aplhawolf's scramble check program on these. I remember it being said back when I got the prom mod that the no scramble patch may not work on OTA. I believe this is not true, since I was able to convert that Law & Order test clip a while back, and it was OTA from my local NBC-DT.

jdiner
08-17-2004, 01:33 AM
Ok. I found the problem with the smaller streams.

Is the min resolution for it 720 or 780? Something I read said it was 780p not 720 as has been written here recently.

So the check to make sure things can lock on is based on the 780 horz res check.

If it can and is really 720 then I am going to have to come up with yet another way to figure out how to garantee the type of stream it really is.

--jdiner

borghe
08-17-2004, 07:40 AM
mikemav - NoCSO descrambles OTA fine. Before NoCSO OTA is like any other scrambled program and will just crash TyShow and can't be reinserted into a different HD Tivo (tried on a friends). After NoCSO the file is fully playable in TyShow (file or vserver stream) and can be reinserted into a different HD Tivo. Though I wish I had your luck in being able to convert OTA. :( Everything I have tried so far has failed.

jdiner - the official size is 720p. I can't think of an instance where they would make something 780p. When they down rez stuff to more effectively use the bitrate mostly it is usually only done on the horizontal resolution (so HBO goes from 1920 to 1220).

Note that Showtime (1920x1080), HBO (1220x1080), and ESPNHD (1280x720) all worked fine for me in 9R17.

mikemav
08-17-2004, 08:35 AM
mikemav - NoCSO descrambles OTA fine. Before NoCSO OTA is like any other scrambled program and will just crash TyShow and can't be reinserted into a different HD Tivo (tried on a friends). After NoCSO the file is fully playable in TyShow (file or vserver stream) and can be reinserted into a different HD Tivo. Though I wish I had your luck in being able to convert OTA. :( Everything I have tried so far has failed.

jdiner - the official size is 720p. I can't think of an instance where they would make something 780p. When they down rez stuff to more effectively use the bitrate mostly it is usually only done on the horizontal resolution (so HBO goes from 1920 to 1220).

Note that Showtime (1920x1080), HBO (1220x1080), and ESPNHD (1280x720) all worked fine for me in 9R17.

Well, I just tried a file I had recorded of the Olympics opening ceremony. It seemed to take forever to start processing (with no on-screen feedback like I usually get telling me what the program is doing), but I let it run, and later it said it was "done" muxing. However, the file was only 4MB instead of the 6GB it should have been, so I am not sure what happened. I will have to try out some more things when I get time.

redstone
08-17-2004, 12:50 PM
Ah hardware. I was afraid of that.

If someone has a spare and wants to loan it to me in the short term I will take a look at what it does and does not like. But I won't be buying one in the short term and without one don't know what is or isn't making it happy. Anyway once that is known I would send it back.

--jdiner

I have a spare MYHD card that something went wrong with it's TV/PC out display in that it won't output 1080i but it will do 480P.


480P will be just as fine for you to see the gerkiness with the 'old' format,etc. Not sure if 720P works ornot as I never tried it on my PC monitor and my HD equipment can not do 720P.

My only concern is that some folks have trouble getting this card to work on their PC. I would hate for you to spend your time puzting with this card to get it to work.

For 99.9% of us,it is a true plug and play device (You do have to explicitly tell it which driver to use though) and works perfectly


Is your PC an INTEL based chipset?
Does it or does not have Multithreading?

jdiner
08-17-2004, 01:29 PM
Oh man... What was the source of the file:

tsclip.ty

that I was sent???

There are all kind of new record types in this file and it was seriously messing things up. This HDTivo stuff is getting old. They seem to use/want completely different information for every little thing that goes by. Ugh.

Anyway, its actually looking at the stream I fixed the problems I have seen, and they were plentiful, but I thought it was supposed to be a 720p stream and I am actually seeing a 1920x1088 stream.

But 1088? I kid you not. That is the resolution setting that is in the file. But what is in the file isn't correcT? I thought it was 1080 in that res not 1088? With only 1 stream I can't tell more than that, but whatever.

I have it working now. I will make a new release in a bit.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-17-2004, 01:34 PM
Is your PC an INTEL based chipset?
Does it or does not have Multithreading?
The machine I would put it in is an AMD 2600+ WinXP Pro box.

As for multi-thread I assume you mean the CPU and with that particular AMD I have no idea. I don't know if AMD even does it or if it is an INTEL only thing.

If you want to loan it to me, and now provide instructions on getting it set up I will see what I can do... :)

--jdiner

jdiner
08-17-2004, 01:37 PM
Alright. Rather than a full release. let's see what this does with just the HD side of things.

So here is HDTyTool4.zip. It contains just the new version of TyTool which has a few other fixes but most notably should let many more HD streams be processed correctly now.

--jdiner

borghe
08-17-2004, 02:11 PM
will have to check the quality when I get home, but every OTA stream I tried and failed with before now works. I am doing it over a terminal connection so I can't actually play the clips but here is what I come out with:

make keyfile works on all ota clips (didn't work on any before)
gopeditor works most of the time but crashed a couple of times. I reloaded it after the crash on the same clip and it worked fine. chunk cuts seem to work.
multiplex creates a file that is the same size about as the original without cuts and the cuts seem to work (cut the beginning of one clip)
file in Media Player reports the correct resolution

the only thing so far that I have tried that doesn't work is FAE but that crashes on ALL of my HD stuff, sat or OTA.

will run the video when I get home but it showed choppy slideshow frames in terminal services so barring anything major it should show fine at home. will also look for lip sync as well (all of my files were synced fine).

mikemav
08-17-2004, 02:32 PM
will have to check the quality when I get home, but every OTA stream I tried and failed with before now works. I am doing it over a terminal connection so I can't actually play the clips but here is what I come out with:

make keyfile works on all ota clips (didn't work on any before)
gopeditor works most of the time but crashed a couple of times. I reloaded it after the crash on the same clip and it worked fine. chunk cuts seem to work.
multiplex creates a file that is the same size about as the original without cuts and the cuts seem to work (cut the beginning of one clip)
file in Media Player reports the correct resolution

the only thing so far that I have tried that doesn't work is FAE but that crashes on ALL of my HD stuff, sat or OTA.

will run the video when I get home but it showed choppy slideshow frames in terminal services so barring anything major it should show fine at home. will also look for lip sync as well (all of my files were synced fine).

Will try to put this through its paces when I get a chance. Thanks for the update jdiner! Borghe, jdiner, do you suggest new or old muxer for this version of the tool? VOB, MPEG, or dealer's choice?

borghe
08-17-2004, 02:37 PM
I've been out of the loop for many months, so I don't even know what the new muxer does.. as for VOB or MPEG, I don't know the real differences between the two files but it's not like you can really do anything with an HD VOB other than play it on your PC anyway... can you take a VOB to TS to send it to DVHS (I'd imagine VLC could)?

redstone
08-17-2004, 02:37 PM
Will try to put this through its paces when I get a chance. Thanks for the update jdiner! Borghe, jdiner, do you suggest new or old muxer for this version of the tool? VOB, MPEG, or dealer's choice?

mikemav,
I believe that you have a MYHD card correct?

Can you try the old and new format and see if you can replicate what I posted about about FF/RW working and the video is NOT gerky when using the NEW format?

Thanks

redstone
08-17-2004, 02:48 PM
I've been out of the loop for many months, so I don't even know what the new muxer does.. as for VOB or MPEG, I don't know the real differences between the two files but it's not like you can really do anything with an HD VOB other than play it on your PC anyway... can you take a VOB to TS to send it to DVHS (I'd imagine VLC could)?

VLC will generate a Transport Stream file from a VOB file that can be transferred to a Dvhs with DVHStool.

The MYHD card that I keep referring to will play an HD VOB and display it on a PC or an HD display device depending upon what you connect the output of the card to.

borghe
08-17-2004, 02:53 PM
I understand that, I was just referring to any preference between VOB or MPEG. I always thought the point to making a VOB was to have a DVD formatted MPEG. If you can't use the MPEG on DVD, there doesn't seem to be a reason to format it for such.. that's all I was saying.

Cheezmo
08-17-2004, 09:06 PM
You got that from me. It is OTA HD NBC (Tonight Show). Should be 1920x1080.



Oh man... What was the source of the file:

tsclip.ty

that I was sent???

There are all kind of new record types in this file and it was seriously messing things up. This HDTivo stuff is getting old. They seem to use/want completely different information for every little thing that goes by. Ugh.

Anyway, its actually looking at the stream I fixed the problems I have seen, and they were plentiful, but I thought it was supposed to be a 720p stream and I am actually seeing a 1920x1088 stream.

But 1088? I kid you not. That is the resolution setting that is in the file. But what is in the file isn't correcT? I thought it was 1080 in that res not 1088? With only 1 stream I can't tell more than that, but whatever.

I have it working now. I will make a new release in a bit.

--jdiner

borghe
08-17-2004, 09:17 PM
ok, everything seems to be good on all clips. there is no sound (assuming this was intentional) and audio type is detected as MPEG Layer II when it is AC3 (again assuming it's intentional).

and the GOPEditor crashes when doing FAE.

Aside from that it has worked on all clips and shows I have transferred off my box.

jdiner
08-18-2004, 02:07 AM
ok, everything seems to be good on all clips. there is no sound (assuming this was intentional) and audio type is detected as MPEG Layer II when it is AC3 (again assuming it's intentional).
Check your speakers, wires, whatever. I get sound from the short clip you sent me. It gets detected correctly and plays back just fine.


and the GOPEditor crashes when doing FAE.
Nothing, and I do mean nothing, has been done to GopEditor to deal with these streams. 1 thing at a time. This means GopEditing will work but FAE has no chance. The buffers are the right size, the mpeg splitting system hasn't been update, etc... I need to figure out the problems with stream parsing first then the rest will come. And too be honest my time is limited. It is going to take a while to get to the point of considering this done.
GOP editing will work as it does not use the original file.

But as many may notice you can run into sizing issues with things not with standing. My box doesn't show the controls on the GopEditor with certain streams because the things are big enough to completely fille the display and the window can't be automated to go bigger than that.

--jdiner

borghe
08-18-2004, 09:47 AM
jdiner - sent you a PM with links to my clips that don't get sound.

edit - oh, and that clip wasn't from me.. assuming it was from mikemav.. none of my OTA stuff has gotten sound after muxing with the newest HDTyTool. More in the PM.

redstone
08-18-2004, 10:42 AM
I was playing with that new format KID file in MYHD and found that if I had MYHD Fast forward more than about 30 seconds by using the slider bar on it's gui,I lost audio and could not get it back.

Very repeatable.

I ran the file through vlc to generate a Tarnsport Stream file just for yucks and to my VERY pleaseant surprise, I could move back and forth in the movie using the slider and it did NOT lose the audio.

VLC is correcting something in that file.

Next test is to grab a new recording from the HDTIVO, convert to new format VOB, run it through VLC to generate a transport stream file and watch the whole movie.

We may have a workaround.

I will report back when I have done this test.


Thanks for the updated HDtytool. I realize that it was to fix some OTA problem but I did get the same results wtih Tytool9r16.

I ran it through a 1.5 hour movie from HDNET using the New format,then ran VLC on it to do whatever VLC is fixing to make MYHD happy when trying to FF too far and lose the audio.

I played that 1.5 hour movie through MYHD and watched the whole thing.
It was perfect.

FIRST time I have had a 100% flawless viewing session.

joeblough
08-18-2004, 05:11 PM
just a data point for everyone.

i have spent the last few weeks building a linux-based HTPC. i am using a pcHDTV HD-2000 card to record OTA HD. the local PBS station broadcasts 1080i, and i have captured and watched a lot of their programming.

my television is progressive scan, and i am driving it with a progressive signal. therefore the 1080i must be deinterlaced before sending it to the video card, or else it looks like total crud (gerkiness does not begin to describe it, serious tearing/combing; unwatchable)

mythTV (the PVR software i am using) only offers one kind of deinterlacing. it takes probably 90% of the CPU (athlonXP 3000+) to deinterlace the 1080i signal. and even so, on slow pans, it still looks gerky. i think this is simply an unavoidable consequence of interlaced video, but also there are better software algorithms for deinterlacing.

in contrast 720p content from the ABC affiliate looks great.

i thought i'd mention this since most people here are probably watching these streams on their PC monitors, which are progressive, and so are seeing deinterlacing artifacts.

redstone
08-19-2004, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the updated HDtytool. I realize that it was to fix some OTA problem but I did get the same results wtih Tytool9r16.

I ran it through a 1.5 hour movie from HDNET using the New format,then ran VLC on it to do whatever VLC is fixing to make MYHD happy when trying to FF too far and lose the audio.

I played that 1.5 hour movie through MYHD and watched the whole thing.
It was perfect.

FIRST time I have had a 100% flawless viewing session.

Thanks - one more time as well as another data point for jdiner.

Did the same thing again (HDtytool VOB new format--> VLC Transport Stream) with a movie from SHOHD last night and once again, MYHD played that .ts file back with a perfect picture/sound with FF/RW for the nearly 2 hour long movie.


I am going to hold off on sending you my spare MYHD card until more folks start doing the mods to the HDTIVO and using MYHD with the output of tytool.
If they get perfect results, then there is no need to keep bugging you.

Thanks a lot.

mikemav
08-19-2004, 04:41 PM
I will try out a few movies this weekend. Have not had a chance to try the new muxer/app yet, but hope I have the same luck Redstone is having.

Now if that is working properly, the next step would be for someone to figure out how to go from .VOB or .ts back to ty+ in the future, should we ever want to insert the program back into the Tivo with mfs_ftp. A reverse of the Tytools process. I would hate to have to store all my 9GB HD movies two ways, one for the Tivo and one for the other media players. Either that, or find a way to play back the ty+ files on the Tivo (with Now Playing support) that are stored on a NTFS network drive share. If I ever really need to play it back on the PC, I can convert a particular file to .ts pretty quickly w/ TyTools and VLC I guess.

redstone
08-19-2004, 06:19 PM
If I ever really need to play it back on the PC, I can convert a particular file to .ts pretty quickly w/ TyTools and VLC I guess.


Not sure I follow that. You have a MYHD card which will playback the .ts files on your HDTV via component or RGBHV or DVI so why would you need to keep the .ty file around?

Currently, you can put those .ts files on a D-VHS for archive and playback. If you use a JVC deck, you don't even need MYHD and can play them back directly to your hd display. Unlike the MITS deck that I have which does need a decoder like MYHD.

Also, sometime within the next year, the dual layer DVD's and recorder may be an affordable option.

BTW, I don't use the ty+ format. I merely use tytool's tserver to grab the files I want and then use it to process the .ty files. When done post-processing to .ts format, I delete the .ty file.

I also am now testing DVHSTOOL with these .ts files. More to come on that front.

jdiner
08-19-2004, 06:54 PM
I am going to hold off on sending you my spare MYHD card until more folks start doing the mods to the HDTIVO and using MYHD with the output of tytool.
If they get perfect results, then there is no need to keep bugging you.
Alright cool. Glad it appears to be working.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-19-2004, 06:58 PM
Now if that is working properly, the next step would be for someone to figure out how to go from .VOB or .ts back to ty+ in the future, should we ever want to insert the program back into the Tivo with mfs_ftp.
It a kind of ugly thing to do. I thought my way through it and it is quite simple. Build a simple rough DB of block and pointers to within the data.

I haven't gone any further than that mostly because re-insertion holds no personal interest for me and what would seem to be a only a rather small contingent that like/use/want it. So I have been focusing my efforts elsewhere recently.

--jdiner

mikemav
08-20-2004, 09:02 AM
Not sure I follow that. You have a MYHD card which will playback the .ts files on your HDTV via component or RGBHV or DVI so why would you need to keep the .ty file around?

Because I may want to play the files back on the Tivo, not on my PC. I only use MyHD since it is a necessary evil. Don't get me wrong. It is a good hardware/app combo, but it is still a PC. My 3 year old can operate the Tivo, on the other hand. I have gone to the trouble to set up DVD Lobby to control MyHD (with your help, Redstone, via Girder files!), but it still does not hold a candle to the simple and crash proof Tivo UI. If I convert the files to .ts, unless someone works out a reverse Tytools, I lose the possibility to play it back on the Tivo. I have 1.2TB of storage outside my tivo, but (only) 500GB inside. I know if I had a way to access all of that space I would archive more movies, but for now, that would only work if I keep using MyHD and give up on playing them back again on the Tivo.

redstone
08-20-2004, 03:40 PM
The good news as I reported yesterday, is that I have now watched 5 full length movies in a row with MYHD that were created with TYTool.

The process goes like this:
Tytool New Format creates.VOB -----> VLC creates and cleans up the VOB to generate a .ts file ---->MYHD which plays back the .ts files


The bad news is that after about 20 minutes of having Dvhstool archive the .ts file to D-VHS, my system bugchecks.

So one last hurdle to cross.


Dvshtool is not happy with the data as seen by a snipper from it's debug log file:
Thu Aug 19 19:28:26 READ: Executing initial delay of 5 seconds

Thu Aug 19 19:28:26 0, GetCurFile: G:\HDTIVO Programs\Ghoulies-.ty.vob.tp

Thu Aug 19 19:28:27 0, GetCurFile: G:\HDTIVO Programs\Ghoulies-.ty.vob.tp

Thu Aug 19 19:28:28 0, GetCurFile: G:\HDTIVO Programs\Ghoulies-.ty.vob.tp

Thu Aug 19 19:28:29 0, GetCurFile: G:\HDTIVO Programs\Ghoulies-.ty.vob.tp

Thu Aug 19 19:28:30 0, GetCurFile: G:\HDTIVO Programs\Ghoulies-.ty.vob.tp

Thu Aug 19 19:28:31 G:\HDTIVO Programs\Ghoulies-.ty.vob.tp is 7595081184 bytes long and we need to read 48128 bytes, global Pos = 0

Thu Aug 19 19:28:31 Invalid pat. This packet is bad.

Thu Aug 19 19:28:31 Invalid pat. This packet is bad.

Thu Aug 19 19:28:31 Invalid pat. This packet is bad.

Thu Aug 19 19:28:31 721920, GetCurFile: G:\HDTIVO Programs\Ghoulies-.ty.vob.tp

Thu Aug 19 19:28:32 Invalid pat. This packet is bad.

AbMagFab
08-21-2004, 04:00 PM
HDTyTool works great (and regular tytool didn't). Extracting a 5-minute HD MPEG now, hopefully it'll be a real MPEG. From OTA Olympics.

redstone
08-21-2004, 06:38 PM
The good news as I reported yesterday, is that I have now watched 5 full length movies in a row with MYHD that were created with TYTool.

The process goes like this:
Tytool New Format creates.VOB -----> VLC creates and cleans up the VOB to generate a .tp file ---->MYHD which plays back the .tp files


The bad news is that after about 20 minutes of having Dvhstool archive the .tp file to D-VHS, my system bugchecks.

So one last hurdle to cross.
.

The last hurdle was to run the .ts file through tstoatsc with -c (correct streams option) . The pogram spits out messages that it is fixing all the data.

I archived the resultant files with DVHStool and it did not bugcheck.

Now I need to really watch the tape tonight to make sure all it okay.

What a process to go through:)

Tytool ----> .VOB ----> VLC ----> .TP Which play fine with MYHD but
to be avle to archive to dvhs with dvhstool one more step is needed:

.TP ---->tstoatsc---->.TS ---> Dvhstool

NOte: .TS and .TP are the same exact format. It is just a different name extension that the HW cards use.

I will report back and hopefully, I am done.

redstone
08-22-2004, 05:53 PM
I made a .vob file with HDTytool Version 4 of a segment from the Olympics and I get no sound from the VOB file.

This was an OTA recording on the HDTIVO.

I tried New format VOB and old format mpg with the same results



Mplayer plays the .ty file and does have sound.

I am uploading a .ty clip here:
http://southriver.web.aplus.net/

so you can replicate.

Thanks

jdiner
08-23-2004, 12:40 AM
Well I am getting pretty freaking sick of the crap that is the OTA stuff.

What a joke.

One of the streams I got is nothing but I-Frames. I kid you not. No prediction, i.e. not sharind of compressed data, as a result the files are huge! This was the teachnique of MPEG-1, make everything an I-Frame.

Then we move to the next from someone else and a different channel. This one has P frames but no B frames. A standard MPEG-2 video stream is usually:

I P B B P B B P B B I B B P B B ....

So I have seen OTA that is:

I I I I I I I ....

and now

I P P P P P P P P P P P I P P P P P ....

TyTool was built to handle this kind of thing in the main, but some of the more recent HDTivo code made some assumptions that are just not always true.

And here I was thinking that DTV was bad, they are heavent sent compared to some of this crap.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-23-2004, 12:52 AM
Here is another lovely error. Megabytes of video data with no matching audio records. You can forget OTA from TyTool for the near future. This goes beyond a simple fix to trying to figure out if the data is lieing, as it is in this case, how and why it is lieing.

I am in the middle of other things and will have to come back to this at some point but I am not going to spend any more time on it right now.

--jdiner

gNOMEintheRedHa
08-23-2004, 10:57 AM
I can't say as I blame you.
There seems to be NO standard even for the same station.

My local NBC station seems unable to decide if the local news should be HD or SD and howmuch bandwidth it should get.

One dat the news is HD @ ~12Mb
Next it is HD @ ~8Mb
Then it's SD @ ~10Mb

redstone
08-23-2004, 01:03 PM
Here is another lovely error. Megabytes of video data with no matching audio records. You can forget OTA from TyTool for the near future. This goes beyond a simple fix to trying to figure out if the data is lieing, as it is in this case, how and why it is lieing.

I am in the middle of other things and will have to come back to this at some point but I am not going to spend any more time on it right now.

--jdiner

Thanks for looking into this. I know your plate is full and I do appreciate it.


I'll just make sure I use the MYHD card for now for OTA stuff that I want to keep.




In your message about 2 different streams and different handling of I fields, can you tell me which describes the Olympics one I posted on my website?

I would like to record a Transport Stream snippet of the Olymipics from the same channel with the MYHD card and send it off to MIT to look at so they can verify if it is coming in that way or the TIVO is doing something wierd.

Thanks

jdiner
08-23-2004, 01:34 PM
There seems to be NO standard even for the same station.

My local NBC station seems unable to decide if the local news should be HD or SD and howmuch bandwidth it should get.

One dat the news is HD @ ~12Mb
Next it is HD @ ~8Mb
Then it's SD @ ~10Mb
Wow. That is terrible. The latest lie I am getting from the OTA stuff appears to be that the audio records which have, on the tivo always been 1 audio PU per record, are now about 3.6 per record on average. Sometimes I get multiple PES headers in there and sometimes I get only 1. So I can't even count headers to see what is there. This has me extremely frustrated as the TyStream side used to be the easy 1 to deal with.

I expected that we would find different oddities for every different OTA sender, now it would appear that we will find different oddities from the same sender on different days.

I wonder if it is going to get any better or if it will continue to just be whacked out for some time to come.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-23-2004, 01:38 PM
In your message about 2 different streams and different handling of I fields, can you tell me which describes the Olympics one I posted on my website?

I would like to record a Transport Stream snippet of the Olymipics from the same channel with the MYHD card and send it off to MIT to look at so they can verify if it is coming in that way or the TIVO is doing something wierd.
I was the I P P P P... I was talking about for that one.

--jdiner

rc3105
08-23-2004, 01:53 PM
I expected that we would find different oddities for every different OTA sender, now it would appear that we will find different oddities from the same sender on different days.

I wonder if it is going to get any better or if it will continue to just be whacked out for some time to come.

--jdiner
and yet the tivo, numerous hd recievers and pc tuner / software combo's handle it all just fine

perhaps you need to take a step back & approach the process from a different perspective

( not gonna improve, if anything it's getting worse :( )

jdiner
08-23-2004, 02:03 PM
and yet the tivo, numerous hd recievers and pc tuner / software combo's handle it all just fine

perhaps you need to take a step back & approach the process from a different perspective

( not gonna improve, if anything it's getting worse :( )
Precisely. That is why I said:


I am in the middle of other things and will have to come back to this at some point but I am not going to spend any more time on it right now.

It is going to take some real time and is not a quick fix.

It obviously plays elsewhere meaning the data is good. But a I said somewhere else here recently I made a ton of assumptions based on the nature of TyStreams. These have "always been correct" for the 3 kinds of tivos: SA, DTivo, and S2 DTivo. But now with the advent of this newest OTA nightmare for the HDTivos these rules are just not rules anymore.

The mpeg import system was made massively more flexible and now almost all external MPEG/VOB files can be used with it. The TyStream parser was built for just that the TyStreams that we were always seeing. What we are seeing is just radically different.

But as you mention there are a ton of tools that deal with them "properly". Perhaps I should just bow out on the HD front rather than trying to play catch up.

--jdiner

rc3105
08-23-2004, 02:22 PM
bcc produced a (mostly) working util in a few days, catching up from where you're allready at shouldn't be too bad


still think the option to generate diff files would be well worth the effort. (been there, done that, not too hard)

I don't have any use for mpg anymore (straight ty<->divx nowdays) and you don't have any use for insertion, but there are a lot of folks out in the middle that use both

if you'd consider adding a diff option I'll work up a module tserver can use to grab the xml & extract ty+

redstone
08-23-2004, 02:23 PM
But as you mention there are a ton of tools that deal with them "properly". Perhaps I should just bow out on the HD front rather than trying to play catch up.

--jdiner

Please no!

There is one and only one tool that can convert HDTIVO .ty files to a standard playable format and you wrote and own it.

jdiner
08-23-2004, 02:38 PM
bcc produced a (mostly) working util in a few days, catching up from where you're allready at shouldn't be too bad
I took a look at the output from his stuff awhile back. It was missing a number of issues in the stream. Not trying to pick onhim but it was a simplistic splitter. I posted awhile back what I had found wrong in it the output. Never did look at the source. I was just trying to figure out an issue on what I was generating. Turned out to be a wrong audio detection issue on my part.


I don't have any use for mpg anymore (straight ty<->divx nowdays) and you don't have any use for insertion, but there are a lot of folks out in the middle that use both
have you come up with a simple way for TV display of divx files or are you using something more complex like an XBox etc? I would personally love the smaller size but the cost of recompression timewise and the lack of simple playback has me still focused on DVD output.

--jdiner

redstone
08-23-2004, 02:52 PM
I don't have any use for mpg anymore (straight ty<->divx nowdays) and you don't have any use for insertion, but there are a lot of folks out in the middle that use both



At the risk of getting hollered at, I must speak up.

This thread is about extraction from the High Definition TIVO, the HR10-250, so there is NO place for divx when it comes to High Def.

jdiner has done a great service to the HDTVO folks in making it possible for us to make full rez mpegs/VOB of the HD material.

Heck, I have never even tried this program on the Standard Definition recordings.

malfunct
08-23-2004, 03:11 PM
At the risk of getting hollered at, I must speak up.

This thread is about extraction from the High Definition TIVO, the HR10-250, so there is NO place for divx when it comes to High Def.

jdiner has done a great service to the HDTVO folks in making it possible for us to make full rez mpegs/VOB of the HD material.

Heck, I have never even tried this program on the Standard Definition recordings.

There is plenty of room for discussion of conversion to other formats, especially if HD-DVD ends up being MS's flavor of mpeg4. (I'm not hollaring at you btw) I do agree that the work that JDiner has done is valuable, especially what he seems to be working on in the realm of editing, but it would still be nice to have the knowledge of converting to divx (and in that way to microsoft's hd-dvd format when it comes along).

rc3105
08-23-2004, 08:49 PM
redstone:

this thread is titled "Video extraction from the new HD10-250" - that's pretty well solved

conversion to other formats for use with hardware like a dvhs deck or dvd player is off topic ;-)


HD -> divx and divx -> HD works great, mpg4 is just another encoding format

keep in mind the dtv mpeg2 spec has been in use since like 94. if you maintain the original resolution while going from HD -> mpeg4 you benefit from advances in compression technology and get decent filesizes without losing any quality, just gotta have something that can decode & display it. an xbox with the right cable drives a hdtv nicely (thinking it's a vga monitor)



jdiner:

as you know conversion between radically different formats requires some serious math skills or transcoding. codec -> framserve -> codec is WAY easier than trying to transmute between mpeg flavors designed for different purposes. divx <-> mpeg isn't a problem. if you're building mpeg from decompressed frames it's easy to make it tivo friendly, then mpeg -> ty is simple enough

I have a gentoo-myth xbox with mpg/divx/dv/ty codecs that'll convert or display pretty much anything thrown at it

wkozun
08-23-2004, 09:04 PM
This thread is about extraction from the High Definition TIVO, the HR10-250, so there is NO place for divx when it comes to High Def.

I must agree with rc3105 on this one - divx is NOT synonymous with poor quality. Broadcast MPEG-2 HD is not perfect, in fact it is very heavily compressed to a bitrate of (I believe) 19.2Mbps.

This is obvious if you watch high motion sports in HD - a perfect example is the diving from the Olympics that was on during the weekend on NBC-HD. While the diver was standing still the picture was beautiful. As the diver was descending the picture was almost unwatchable due to the pixelation, at least on my TV (NBC-HD from Detroit and NBC-HD from Seattle delivered via Rogers Cable to Toronto) and from many other posts it appears that I am not the only one to notice this.

borghe
08-24-2004, 10:15 AM
jdiner - you want a simple DivX playback system? XBox.. won't take the thread too far off track but for the cost of a PC->XBoxMemCard hardware ($20-30) and a used non-platinum copy of splinter cell, mechassault, or 007: Agent Under Fire, you can software mod your XBox in under 15 minutes and be fully capable of playing DivX back. I haven't compressed any HD to full resolution DivX at say 8-10Mbps, so I don't know how well it will play back, but standard res DivX (720x480) plays back at full framerate. No soldering or even opening up your xbox.

That being said, DVHS is out of the question for me. I just can't go back to a linear analog storage format. I have taken to splitting my HD TMF's across 4.7GB rar stores (very little time to "compress" or extract) and sending them off to DVD.. will be nice when dual layer discs don't cost $5/each. Then just reinsert them into the Tivo when I want to watch them. Don't have to worry about tapes giving out, or anything.

Will try encoding HD DivX to 10Mbps.. That should give me a slightly less than 2 hour movie on a dual layer disc. See how that plays on my XBox.. though for the time being I still can't do OTA no matter what without sound. :(

mikemav
08-24-2004, 10:28 AM
borghe-
I had asked a similar question to Riley a while back: if the Xbox with the HD breakout cable can handle hi-def (1080i games, etc...) via component, can a hacked Xbox w/ XBMC or XBMP play back HD tivo programs? Either (ideally) in the ty format @ 1920x1080 or 720p , or if the file is converted to MPEG or VOB at the HD resolution? I had asked Riley to take a look at one of the sample HD files I provided redstone, but I am not sure if he had a chance to try playback on the hacked Xbox. Can you let us know if it works? I have been thinking of hacking an Xbox, but I cannot get a clear answer on my two remaining questions; if it will play the HD files at HD resolution, and if it will work with one of the RF wireless controllers available? If those two were possible, I could add an Xbox upstairs and it would be a great multimedia and high-def platform.

redstone
08-24-2004, 10:59 AM
That being said, DVHS is out of the question for me. I just can't go back to a linear analog storage format. I have taken to splitting my HD TMF's across 4.7GB rar stores (very little time to "compress" or extract) and sending them off to DVD.. will be nice when dual layer discs don't cost $5/each. Then just reinsert them into the Tivo when I want to watch them. Don't have to worry about tapes giving out, or anything.



It is because we do not yet have an HD DVD standalone player, DVD's are out of the question for me.


I am not interested in waiting an hour and a half to restore a movie from a DVD into the TIVO before I can watch it. That would be a big hit with my family.


I have a library of over 100 HD movies on D-VHS made from the DISH 5000 days and it is now being added to thanks to HDtytool.

It's 8:00 PM and the family decides to sit down and watch a great HD movie.
We pick out something that everyone agrees on, stick the D-Vhs tape into the JVC, hit play and watch.

rc3105
08-24-2004, 08:34 PM
heh, I have usb hd & dvd drives attached to the tivos. connect a drive or pop in a disk of ty+ & start watching (insert finishes in the background)

the 810 has the internal dvd & a dual layer burner on usb, the first 2 disks of a multi-disk recording (olympics) can go in at the same time


considering the cost of a usb case + dvd vs a used xbox, it's allmost more economical (certainly more flexible) to treat an xbox as network attached storage. replace the xbox dvd with a burner & add a few scripts on each to coordinate & you can extract/burn import/streamview all from the tivo remote


just to stay on topic ;) it's perfectly feasable to do "Video extraction from the new HD10-250 " directly to usb connected storage or another *nix box acting as NAS

redstone
08-25-2004, 07:11 AM
just to stay on topic ;) it's perfectly feasable to do "Video extraction from the new HD10-250 " directly to usb connected storage or another *nix box acting as NAS

VERY Interesting idea.


Don't want to take this thread too far OT so I started a new thread about "Video storage and Playback on the new HR10-250".

It should start a good discussion.


Thanks!

jdiner
08-25-2004, 12:48 PM
Alright added some visual resize code to the GopEditor windows so that you can see everything including the controls for some of these stupendously large resolution HD streams.

This is the first step to getting HiDef editing working correctly.

--jdiner

redstone
08-27-2004, 11:11 AM
As you have been working with the HD streams that we gave you, have you found that the Video and Audio Pids are different between the clips?

I am asking because when I convert a VOB file -new format with VLC, the Video and Audio Pids (seen with Tsreader light) are always either 44,45 or 45,44

Thanks

redstone
08-27-2004, 12:21 PM
I extracted a 6.8 Gbyte High def .ty+ file and processed it with HDtytool version 4 using the VOB new format option.

I have been doing this successfully (except for the OTA ones) for at least 10 other files.


On this file, however, Hdtytool made a short file.

HDtytool did not complain but it only generated a 500 MByte VOB file.

I played the file and what I have plays fine.

I am uploading as much of it as I have quota for (ftp site has a 1 GByte quota) and I really would appreciate it if you could check into what went wrong.

It is here:
http://southriver.web.aplus.net/{Midnight in St. Petersburg}{1994-12-31}{}{07.30 AM Wed Aug 25, 2004}{HDNM}.ty+

If that url does not work then please just go to:
http://southriver.web.aplus.net
and click on

"ty+ file for testing Hdtytool v 4"


Thank you

jdiner
08-27-2004, 12:26 PM
I am uploading as much of it as I have quota for (ftp site has a 1 GByte quota) and I really would appreciate it if you could check into what went wrong.
So exactly how big is that file? I don't have the bandwidth to download 1gig here at home. I also have limits and that is a pretty good section of what I get a month.

--jdiner

wkozun
08-27-2004, 12:38 PM
jdiner - this may be beyond the scope of TyTool but it would be great to have divx (or xvid, etc.) as one of the types of files that could be created with TyTool for those of us who play extracted files on HTPCs, Connected DVD players or hacked XBOXes. This would also be useful for people owning a DVD player that is able to play divx files.

What I am thinking is that you would go through the same process as to create a VOB or MPEG (Get Ty, Make Key, Edit Key, Multiplex w cuts) but then the file you create would be a divx file rather than a VOB or MPEG.

Anyone out there interested in doing this - I guess this is a slight variation on Etivo.

mikemav
08-27-2004, 01:41 PM
I extracted a 6.8 Gbyte High def .ty+ file and processed it with HDtytool version 4 using the VOB new format option.

I have been doing this successfully (except for the OTA ones) for at least 10 other files.


On this file, however, Hdtytool made a short file.

HDtytool did not complain but it only generated a 500 MByte VOB file.

I played the file and what I have plays fine.

I am uploading as much of it as I have quota for (ftp site has a 1 GByte quota) and I really would appreciate it if you could check into what went wrong.

It is here:
http://southriver.web.aplus.net/{Midnight in St. Petersburg}{1994-12-31}{}{07.30 AM Wed Aug 25, 2004}{HDNM}.ty+

If that url does not work then please just go to:
http://southriver.web.aplus.net
and click on

"ty+ file for testing Hdtytool v 4"


Thank you

I'll bet you extracted this time with mfs_ftp, not via TyTools, right? Same thing was happening to me with the standard installation of mfs_ftp. There is a bug for our application where it does something with the Priority Set string that does not let TyTools get past the first 512MB. Search this thread several pages back for "priority set." Someone (I want to say it was BCC?) posted a fix, which is a new binary or something that goes in the mfs_ftp folder. Once I changed that, all was good. Unfortunatly, once you have extracted with the old version, all those extractions will have these errors. A few pages later someone posted a DOS command line "fixer" app to find these priority set strings and get rid of them, so you would not need to waste those extracted files.

Let me know if you have questions. I have both the DOS app and the revised mfs-ftp files that fixed it for me.

-Mike

redstone
08-27-2004, 02:18 PM
I'll bet you extracted this time with mfs_ftp, not via TyTools, right? Same thing was happening to me with the standard installation of mfs_ftp. There is a bug for our application where it does something with the Priority Set string that does not let TyTools get past the first 512MB.

Let me know if you have questions. I have both the DOS app and the revised mfs-ftp files that fixed it for me.

-Mike

Yes,I did!

I remember you posting about some priority issue but I thought that had something to do with the process priority and did not pay much attention to it. Plus, that was before jdiner made the updates for the HDTIVO's high def files.

There are so darn many versions of mfs_ftp floating around on this forum that I have no idea which is the one I should be using.

I do have a question:
Which is the correct version of mfs_ftp and could you please post a link for the correct one?

Thanks

redstone
08-27-2004, 02:21 PM
So exactly how big is that file? I don't have the bandwidth to download 1gig here at home. I also have limits and that is a pretty good section of what I get a month.

--jdiner

The file is still being uploaded to my ftp site but the file is 6.8 Gbyte.

When the upload quits, it would be ~ 1Gbyte.

Anyway,hold off until I get resolved which version of mfs_ftp I should be using for extracting ty+ files - see the post above by Mikemav.

I canceled the upload.

mikemav
08-27-2004, 02:50 PM
Yes,I did!

I remember you posting about some priority issue but I thought that had something to do with the process priority and did not pay much attention to it. Plus, that was before jdiner made the updates for the HDTIVO's high def files.

There are so darn many versions of mfs_ftp floating around on this forum that I have no idea which is the one I should be using.

I do have a question:
Which is the correct version of mfs_ftp and could you please post a link for the correct one?

Thanks

Here you go. Put these in the mfs_ftp folder and you should be good to go.
mfs_ftp_supportS2 (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=171242&postcount=55)

Here (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=174525&postcount=150) is the error fix DOS program

redstone
08-27-2004, 04:38 PM
Here you go. Put these in the mfs_ftp folder and you should be good to go.
mfs_ftp_supportS2 (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=171242&postcount=55)

Here (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=174525&postcount=150) is the error fix DOS program


I re-uploaded the .ty+ file with those new binaries and now HDtytool processed it fine.

The odd thing is that before the .ty+ file was around 6 Gbytes and now it is only around 4.5 Gbytes.

redstone
08-27-2004, 07:18 PM
I re-uploaded the .ty+ file with those new binaries and now HDtytool processed it fine.

The odd thing is that before the .ty+ file was around 6 Gbytes and now it is only around 4.5 Gbytes.

I spoke too soon.

The resultant VOB file has errors that is making VLC blow up so I uploaded a .ty file with tserver.

Hdtytool makes a .VOB file but it also makes VLC blow up.

Here is the .txt file from Hdtytool - perhaps you could tell me from this log file how much I need to upload for you to see the errors?

EDIT: I watched the same movie on the HDTIVO last night and it had about 5 places where it had some heavy pixelation and loss of audio.
It corresponds as best I can tell with the error chunks noted in the enclosed file.
Now sure why the TIVO had all those errors but this is a case where the source data was wacky so no reason to look into it.

jdiner
08-29-2004, 01:52 AM
There are so darn many versions of mfs_ftp floating around on this forum that I have no idea which is the one I should be using.
Just use TyTool. It will save you a lot of pain and many many headaches.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-29-2004, 01:54 AM
Redstone: I was going to say. The errors you are seeing are part of some serious signal loss. But you saw that yourself, so no need to go into it further.

--jdiner

rc3105
08-29-2004, 03:09 AM
Just use TyTool. It will save you a lot of pain and many many headaches.

--jdiner
yah, because nobody's ever had trouble using tytool or the nonstandard files it produces...



There are so darn many versions of mfs_ftp floating around on this forum that I have no idea which is the one I should be using.

there is one version - currently 1.2.9p - in the main mfs_ftp thread (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21915&perpage=1). the latest/current version is allways right there

read the first post & follow the install instructions. they point s2 users to the MFS_FTP on Series 2 Units (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29459&pp=1) thread for s2 binaries

if you plan to extract as ty rather than tmf you'll also need the fixed version of mfs_stream (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3432) that bcc posted

jdiner
08-29-2004, 03:27 AM
yah, because nobody's ever had trouble using tytool or the nonstandard files it produces...
Nope. Because TyTool has never put erroneous entries in the middle of a TyStream file. Non-standard only in that you added things to the stream. And because 1 tool used to do things limits the possiblities that people can screw things up. They won't read my docs, I assume they won't read yours or anyone elses, so I will continue to suggest that people just use TyTool. Past that suggestion everyone is on their own.

--jdiner

rc3105
08-29-2004, 11:35 AM
Nope. Because TyTool has never put erroneous entries in the middle of a TyStream file

right, tytool used to put the same "erroneous entry" at the start of each stream

and who (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/member.php?userid=1724) was it again that goofed on the mfs_stream source? ;)


mfs_ftp's native format has never had any problems. mfs_stream was included (warts 'n all) for the convenience of the tytool crowd since tystudio allows for editing before extraction

redstone
08-29-2004, 03:39 PM
Just use TyTool. It will save you a lot of pain and many many headaches.

--jdiner

I had been using .ty files but since I am having a hard time getting a good D-VHS copy, I decided to use .tmf files.

Those I can stream back into the HDTIVO for playback as well as continuing to try to find tools that make a good D-VHS copy since Tytool can read .tmf files.

jdiner
08-29-2004, 09:37 PM
right, tytool used to put the same "erroneous entry" at the start of each stream
And yet somehow TyTool processes what it downloads correctly. Sounds like TyStudio just couldn't get it together.

So we are back to TyStudio ruling the world eh? Because it works so darn well doesn't it... That must be why there is no on going development on it.

--jdiner

jdiner
08-29-2004, 09:37 PM
I had been using .ty files but since I am having a hard time getting a good D-VHS copy, I decided to use .tmf files.

Those I can stream back into the HDTIVO for playback as well as continuing to try to find tools that make a good D-VHS copy since Tytool can read .tmf files.
Yeah. TMF files are the only way back to put things back onto the Tivo.

--jdiner

rc3105
08-29-2004, 10:01 PM
And yet somehow TyTool processes what it downloads correctly. Sounds like TyStudio just couldn't get it together.

So we are back to TyStudio ruling the world eh? Because it works so darn well doesn't it... That must be why there is no on going development on it.

--jdiner
never had any problem with tystudio output here past the initial hassle of adding support for new ty flavors as hardware becomes available to produce test clips

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - lotta different tystudio forks & derivitives. really couldn't care less about ty -> mpg these days, or what tools people use, or especially trying to corral all them all under 1 umbrella (more interesting things to work on)

ntesla
08-31-2004, 03:05 PM
No luck yet. It locks up the xbox within seconds. You get a small clip of audio. But that is over a smb share so may just be network troughput. I'll try some of the posted streams. I'm also downloading the latest XBMC. At some piont I will boot into linux and give mplayer a try.

desplaines
09-02-2004, 03:57 AM
Dvico just released a new version of the Fusion HDTV aplication and drivers (v2.70.02). Now, my 'test' file that used to be 'gerky' in certain scenes plays cleanly. I use the following Fusion settings:
-'non-DXVA' video decoding
-Highest or lowest video quality both worked
-'auto' or 'software' deinterlacing
-'S/PDIF plus WaveOut' audio

This is on an Athlon 2500/512MB/Nforce 2 chipset/Radeon 9600 non-pro/WinXP Pro SP2 machine.

jdiner, 'you've got PayPal!' :)

jdiner
09-02-2004, 06:45 PM
or what tools people use, or especially trying to corral all them all under 1 umbrella (more interesting things to work on)
Except of course that everyone should be using mfs_ftp to download. Funny you take a certain pride in what you wrote and feel people should use it but don't afford others the same courtesy. As soon as I say use TyTool I am in the wrong.

--jdiner

rc3105
09-03-2004, 03:11 AM
your implication that my tool causes headaches is what I take exception to
Just use TyTool. It will save you a lot of pain and many many headaches.
--jdiner
if drag & drop to/from a browser window is too complicated you probably shouldn't be noodling with extraction in the first place...

bcc
09-04-2004, 03:19 PM
I took a look at the output from his stuff awhile back. It was missing a number of issues in the stream. Not trying to pick onhim but it was a simplistic splitter. I posted awhile back what I had found wrong in it the output.I don't recall seeing any such report. Just that you had issues playing back HD content with your directshow filters, that nobody else was able to reproduce. Never found out exactly what directshow filters you were using. Also I remember you had issues with the hdtvtompeg2 generated transport streams, but those issues shouldn't be attributed to me.

Simplistic? That's not the word I'd choose, but yes, simplicity was a design goal for me. Does demuxing of HD have to be complicated? I've looked at tystudio code and it has all kinds of heuristical stuff in there which seems unnecessary. For example gleaning the video frame rate by scanning the data instead of using the reported frame rate. There was no way I was going to code such complexity without understanding why it is required (and I've seen no spec that requires such complexity).

For this sort of problem, I prefer a unix-like approach where a bunch of more "simplistic" tools can be piped/compiled/whatever together to perform the overall task. Once the individual tools are fairly solid, then a GUI can wrap things together to provide the ease of use most people need. I know you were already at the GUI stage a long time ago, but now with HD it seems more work is needed on the more elementary parts. I would rather share & develop instead of compete. Wish you felt the same.

bcc
09-04-2004, 03:33 PM
if you plan to extract as ty rather than tmf you'll also need the fixed version of mfs_stream (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3432) that bcc postedWould be cool if you'd merge the 3 zip files of programs needed to use mfs_ftp for .ty format into a single zip. Or at least merge the s2 binaries into a single zip? Perhaps use something similar to sleeper's mfs_ftp tpm to select the s1 vs s2 binaries at installation time.

jdiner
09-04-2004, 07:13 PM
I don't recall seeing any such report.

Check this thread in this post: http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?p=177242&highlight=bcc#post177242

The problem as mentioned there is that while it locates the proper start to the data it is not processing things correctly with it. The 00 00 01 e0 is a protected by sequence under MPEG-2 specs and they are present through-out the data after using your tool. Didn't take more than a cursory look at the source after that point.


Just that you had issues playing back HD content with your directshow filters, that nobody else was able to reproduce. Never found out exactly what directshow filters you were using.
Me neither. I just did a system rebuild on another machine (identical hardware to the first) to get to a clean state, put PowerDVD on it and it started working. Beyond that I never searched any further for either the cause or a solution.


Also I remember you had issues with the hdtvtompeg2 generated transport streams, but those issues shouldn't be attributed to me.
No. The only portion I was talking about were the erroneous video PES headers that were showing up within the output.


Simplistic? That's not the word I'd choose, but yes, simplicity was a design goal for me.
It was for me too. I obviously had a different end goal in mind but that is besides the point. So allow to explain my comment.

The process of splitting a TyStream is extremely simple. You get a CHUNK worth of data from the file, find the header that starts it all out, and pull the video from the video records and the audio from the audio records with in that chunk. Save the video pieces to 1 file and the audio pieces to another and you have a splitter. This is infact exactly what Tridge released all those long years ago.

However there are a ton of oddities that are a part of the nature of the TyStream itself. Whether they are Tivo's fault or DTVs fault is a matter of interpretation and presonal preference I guess. In building TyTool I spent a ton of time on those. I know from posts and other contact with Olaf that he had to do the same thing with TyStudio. You mention a few of the other things you saw in his source...

When I said it was simplistic I was talking about what was actually going on inside of the code. Not that it was a bad design just that you didn't seem to be do anything about these oddities and errors and there is a very long list of them.


Does demuxing of HD have to be complicated?
Personally I think it is the nature of the beast. If you want to fix things or solve certain issues then you add complexity to the code and the algorithms. If you don't care about those pieces then there is no need. These "bad" things to be worked around are far far more common on a DTV supplied source. Those with stand-alone units, which HDTivos are not, have far fewer issues.


I've looked at tystudio code and it has all kinds of heuristical stuff in there which seems unnecessary.
I never have. Saw no need too. So I have no comment on his source.


For this sort of problem, I prefer a unix-like approach where a bunch of more "simplistic" tools can be piped/compiled/whatever together to perform the overall task. Once the individual tools are fairly solid, then a GUI can wrap things together to provide the ease of use most people need. I know you were already at the GUI stage a long time ago, but now with HD it seems more work is needed on the more elementary parts. I would rather share & develop instead of compete. Wish you felt the same.
I have never been stingy with what I have found. I just have issues with the fact that the source I wrote belongs to me. But that has been long hashed over. I posted what I had found with your tool here some time ago. I wasn't trying to hide anything.

I built a GUI as at the time it seemed to be what most wanted. And it is true. Those willing to spend $1k+ on an HDTivo are not the same level of hobbyist users that tend to be the primary users of TyTool. Most get a single SA/D-Tivo and what a simple point and click interface.

But I digress. I have tried to help and will continue to do so.

--jdiner

jdiner
09-04-2004, 07:16 PM
your implication that my tool causes headaches is what I take exception to
And what would you imply about a system wherein one of the main download mechanisms is broken? There have been fixed versions of mfs_stream since it was first released with the bug. Took gosquad, who did some of the original web download work, less than a week to find the bug, the fix was made and released. More than a year later you are still using the bad version? I know you would be using tmf as that is your preference but it can and does cause problems for the average user...


if drag & drop to/from a browser window is too complicated you probably shouldn't be noodling with extraction in the first place...
I agree completely. If someone can't read a simple FAQ or to-the-point docs they should be either but every tool for use with a tivo has faced that particular problem.

--jdiner

rc3105
09-05-2004, 05:13 AM
the "main download mechanism" produces tmf & there's been a tmf2ty converter avail since day 1. (tar works nicely too) ty extract was added as an afterthought and as such isn't even fully supported for import (no streamview or scramble support)

didn't even have an s2 when the broken binaries were originally built but anyone bothering to read the install instructions / thread will find the link to the correct copy of mfs_stream (which generally changes with each s2 hardware revision)


there's definatly some overlap, but the "average user" for our utils is quite different. tytool users want dvd's, mfs_ftp users want to use the tivo as a media center and are generally more willing/able to build additional projects/patches for features they'd like

rc3105
09-05-2004, 05:24 AM
Would be cool if you'd merge the 3 zip files of programs needed to use mfs_ftp for .ty format into a single zip. Or at least merge the s2 binaries into a single zip? Perhaps use something similar to sleeper's mfs_ftp tpm to select the s1 vs s2 binaries at installation time.
the current first post & binaries are frozen until this legal mess with ebay is settled - got a chess clock accumulating billable support hours that result from unauthorized distribution via ebay

if I'd known they were going to drag their feet (the VERO program is a joke) I'd have done things differently :rolleyes:

AlphaWolf
09-05-2004, 11:23 AM
I know you would be using tmf as that is your preference but it can and does cause problems for the average user...

Hmm...I've never seen any issues with it coming from anybody actually. What issues are you refering to?

copyleft
09-05-2004, 11:35 AM
I have never been stingy with what I have found. I just have issues with the fact that the source I wrote belongs to me. But that has been long hashed over. I posted what I had found with your tool here some time ago. I wasn't trying to hide anything.

To that i say: pffffffffffft

You have never posted your tytool sources, despite your promises to do so. You thought you would teach the world a lesson for pissing you off. Well look what happened, a bunch of guys who were smarter than you made a more versatile tool and gave away the source for free.

You did your best to sabotage olaf and mrbassman. You just couldn't stand the thought of them releasing a competing project. They succeeded in spite of you. You have never shared anything useful. They asked you ty format questions, you told them to read iso 13818. Real helpful, pal.

You have never posted your gpl msql sources. How many years has it been now? Empty promises are the enduring legacy of jdiner. If I were you I'd take down that web page so nobody gets their hopes up.

You're not a team player, dinerstein. Never were, never will be. You're in this for the spotlight. Your fame trumps anybody else's interests. You have tunnel vision. You don't even understand how mfs ftp, tystudio, and hdemux work, because you just don't care. But that doesn't keep you from spreading fud about them.

Shame on you.

-copyleft

rc3105
09-05-2004, 12:10 PM
To that i say: pffffffffffft

You have never posted your tytool sources, despite your promises to do so. You thought you would teach the world a lesson for pissing you off. Well look what happened, a bunch of guys who were smarter than you made a more versatile tool and gave away the source for free.

You did your best to sabotage olaf and mrbassman. You just couldn't stand the thought of them releasing a competing project. They succeeded in spite of you. You have never shared anything useful. They asked you ty format questions, you told them to read iso 13818. Real helpful, pal.

You have never posted your gpl msql sources. How many years has it been now? Empty promises are the enduring legacy of jdiner. If I were you I'd take down that web page so nobody gets their hopes up.

You're not a team player, dinerstein. Never were, never will be. You're in this for the spotlight. Your fame trumps anybody else's interests. You have tunnel vision. You don't even understand how mfs ftp, tystudio, and hdemux work, because you just don't care. But that doesn't keep you from spreading fud about them.

Shame on you.

-copyleft
Dear Sir,

jdiner's a mod (don't diss the mods) and has chosen to continue answering the inevitable zillion end user questions (lil bit of karma there) so please refrain from such personal attacks in the future as they are against current forum policy


*now I gotta go check if hell just froze over...

jdiner
09-05-2004, 12:40 PM
You did your best to sabotage olaf and mrbassman.
On the contrary I answered every PM olaf ever sent. And how did I sabotage a project I never even downloaded?


They asked you ty format questions, you told them to read iso 13818. Real helpful, pal.
The TySTream format is beyond simple for the portions I looked at. I released what I had seen a very very long time ago. So did olaf. What I mentioned above in a recent post is by and large everything you need to know. I came no where near close enough to figuring it all out even to do re-installation. The others you feel I held back learned far far more about it than I did. My goal was simply different.


You have never posted your gpl msql sources. How many years has it been now? Empty promises are the enduring legacy of jdiner. If I were you I'd take down that web page so nobody gets their hopes up.
msql was never GPL. It was a source available commercial project. And you really ought to check the facts before spouting such nonsense. It is as mentioned a commercial app owned by David Hughes. I did what I did originally on my own and then somewhat under his perview. When I stopped developing it the source to all of the various versions where sent to him for hosting on the main SQL site. This was at his request and not my idea he wanted to have the "offiicial" things all hoest in the same spot. Just because David never did so is neither my fault nor my responsibility.


You don't even understand how mfs ftp, tystudio, and hdemux work, because you just don't care. But that doesn't keep you from spreading fud about them.
Now this one actually has a shade of truth to it. I don't care about the other apps. I use what I wrote, just as the other authors do. But there is nothing malicious in it.

Am I tired of trying to fix the issues introduced by TMF files? Absolutely. As a result I tell people who are having troubles to use TyTool for the download. Will it solve the problems they are having with tmf files, yes. Why because they don't have TMF files anymore.

--jdiner

rc3105
09-05-2004, 01:13 PM
Am I tired of trying to fix the issues introduced by TMF files? Absolutely. As a result I tell people who are having troubles to use TyTool for the download. Will it solve the problems they are having with tmf files, yes. Why because they don't have TMF files anymore.
--jdiner
tmf is an extremely basic implementation of the tar format

it is mind boggling that you can parse ty but can't handle tar reliably...

AlphaWolf
09-05-2004, 01:34 PM
Am I tired of trying to fix the issues introduced by TMF files?

What issues introduced by tmf files? I have yet to see any. The ones generated by mfs_tmfexport and rileys tystudio are picture perfect. You can even open them up in winrar and extract the individual files if you want to. Although theres the possibility of it existing, I have yet to see one program that generates TMF files incorrectly. If you have found one, let me know because I would like to see it too. Tar is an extremely basic archive format (about as basic and simple as you can get really,) theres not much that can go wrong with it, so if there is an issue it would have to be a very very light one at best. This is 1980's technology we are dealing with after all.

copyleft
09-05-2004, 03:16 PM
On the contrary I answered every PM olaf ever sent. And how did I sabotage a project I never even downloaded?

The TySTream format is beyond simple for the portions I looked at. I released what I had seen a very very long time ago. So did olaf. What I mentioned above in a recent post is by and large everything you need to know. I came no where near close enough to figuring it all out even to do re-installation. The others you feel I held back learned far far more about it than I did. My goal was simply different.

pffffft. More baloney.

It is obvious from your interactions with Olaf and MrBassman that they embrace teamwork and cooperation, but you despise it.

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?p=93007#post93007

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?p=69583#post69583


msql was never GPL. It was a source available commercial project. And you really ought to check the facts before spouting such nonsense. It is as mentioned a commercial app owned by David Hughes. I did what I did originally on my own and then somewhat under his perview. When I stopped developing it the source to all of the various versions where sent to him for hosting on the main SQL site. This was at his request and not my idea he wanted to have the "offiicial" things all hoest in the same spot. Just because David never did so is neither my fault nor my responsibility.

Typical passive aggressive behavior, you get tired of the project and "punish" everyone for pissing off the mighty Josh in the only way you know how. Why post your patches when it's so much fun to watch people squirm and beg you for them. Josh must keep control at all costs.


Am I tired of trying to fix the issues introduced by TMF files? Absolutely. As a result I tell people who are having troubles to use TyTool for the download. Will it solve the problems they are having with tmf files, yes. Why because they don't have TMF files anymore.

And why do you think that is? Is it because you learned your lesson about borrowing gpl code for a closed source project? Or is it because you suffer from Not-Invented-Here syndrome and can't stand the thought that somebody else might have designed something better than your precious tserver.

redstone
09-05-2004, 06:34 PM
pffffft. More baloney.

Or is it because you suffer from Not-Invented-Here syndrome and can't stand the thought that somebody else might have designed something better than your precious tserver.

I started this thread to explore extraction from the HDTIVO - NOT as a forum to start bad mouthing someone.

You also must not have read through this thread or you would have seen that only 2 folks stepped up to the plate (bcc and jdiner) to provide support for the HDTIVO.
jdiner who does NOT even own an HDTIVO has made updates to his program to generate playable High Def mpeg/VOB files which is what I have been looking for.

I am glad for his unfairly called NIH approach because thanks to tytool/tserver, I now have a capability for my HDTIVO that I did not have before.


Please take your argument somewhere else.

moshmothma
09-05-2004, 07:33 PM
I started this thread to explore extraction from the HDTIVO - NOT as a forum to start bad mouthing someone.

You also must not have read through this thread or you would have seen that only 2 folks stepped up to the plate (bcc and jdiner) to provide support for the HDTIVO.
jdiner who does NOT even own an HDTIVO has made updates to his program to generate playable High Def mpeg/VOB files which is what I have been looking for.

I am glad for his unfairly called NIH approach because thanks to tytool/tserver, I now have a capability for my HDTIVO that I did not have before.


Please take your argument somewhere else.

Yup, right on Redstone!! Jdiner easily has the best tool with the most development. Please take the nonsense to your own thread people. It's really wasted here.

copyleft
09-05-2004, 08:24 PM
Attention jdiner fanboys:

Do not waste your breath, you are now on Ignore.

jdiner
09-05-2004, 09:37 PM
Copyleft:

It is obvious you are using a new alias to try and stay anonymous. If you actually have the conviction of your views why not grow some balls and start posting as who you have been on here.

Why try to hide? You got something to say, say it to my face. At least as close as you can come on a forum. Hiding is for...

This is now the 3rd time in the last little while that someone from "another camp" has created new accounts to chatise me. I am done with the discussion until you grow up and coem back as an adult.

I can boil your whole rant down to 1 sentence: "Do what I want, when I want or you suck.."

--jdiner

jdiner
09-05-2004, 09:48 PM
What issues introduced by tmf files?
TyStream files are contiguous blocks of data. As are MPG-2 PS files.

TMF files have tar headers strewn throughout, at what appear to be FSID segments. The code I wrote was for standard TyStream files and given the way I jump around in them at times this non-contigous nature is a problem.

Now I am NOT saying the files or format is wrong. Don't get me wrong, I am saying TyTool has problems with them because I didn't build it to deal with those. FAE editing is a massively Random-Access process.

But people point at them and keep saying why not those too? Why not, for me they are an after-thought. Standard Tytream continues to be the focus of what I am working on, downloading within TyTool continues to be part of the focus, etc...

Now to say mfs_ftp works with them or tystudio does is a pointless comment for me. If they didn't work no one at all would use them as it would mean nothing could use them. TyTools support for them is limited, thats all. I would gather tystudio was built with them in mind. That being the case it should work with them or there are real problems. They are an extreme
"after the fact" for TyTool and this shows in the aforementioned limited support.


So back to the comment that started all of this latest confusion. Someone had a TMF file and posted "TyTool doesn't work right on it". My response, "use TyTool to download and save yourself that problem". And I stand by that. TyTool users will have fewer problems if they use TyTool from start to finish, it is a simple accurate comment. It had nothing to do with one being better than another.

Somehow it became another round of mine is bigger than yours from both sides and for that I owe the forum at large an apology. Anyone who has been around in the last year knows that there is history between RC3105 and myself. Be that as it may we have tried to be cordial to each other and honestly recently it has worked, but when it comes to a few on here I am quick to fall back into old patterns. Hopefully someday I will just learn to let it go and ignore such things.

--jdiner

patriot
09-06-2004, 03:38 PM
Has there been anymore done with the AC3 Dolby extraction in tytools? I have not read anymore about this. I too would like to keep the AC3 for the DVDs. I have used tools like besweet and a few other but they dont seem to like the mpa/m2a files extracted off the HD Tivo if they are not SD Audio. I prefer to do my video/audio editing seperate from tytools so to control the size of the shows to allow more to fit onto 1 dvdr or cdr if I wish to go to SVCD.

If the AC3 info is posted somewhere else, pls let me know.

Also, for HD Tivo, what rls of tytools should be used now? I see HDTyTool4.zip and TyTool9r17.zip are posted.

patriot

bcc
09-07-2004, 11:55 PM
Check this thread in this post: http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?p=177242&highlight=bcc#post177242

The problem as mentioned there is that while it locates the proper start to the data it is not processing things correctly with it. The 00 00 01 e0 is a protected by sequence under MPEG-2 specs and they are present through-out the data after using your tool. Didn't take more than a cursory look at the source after that point.Ah, ok, looks like the rides .ty was passed around while I was out of town (and the discussion came out during that time too and I never before saw it). Since I've yet to see this .ty file I'm still in the dark as to my bug. I don't normally spew out mpeg video start codes into the .m2v file. Perhaps I sometimes mis-judge the video frame size (maybe the ty stream mis-reports it and I believe it). In any case I'm not taking care to strictly prevent outputting the start code if fed bad stream lengths.

Sounds like folks are very happy with HDtytool now, so this is probably a moot issue.
But I digress. I have tried to help and will continue to do so.Thanks; that's good to hear.

rudolpht
09-12-2004, 11:12 AM
As a contributor but less than expert I have a (hopefully nieve) question.

I have a very long recording (about 3.5 hours) and while I can see all the parts using MFS_Tools, I cannot "Get Parts" using the HD4 rev of TyTools (which is the greatest thing since sliced bread).

Effectively the last three "parts" in the recording are
> > 125664/51 Part 129700
> > 125664/52 Part 129702
> > 125664/53 Part 129704

But with the "Get Parts" button the list of parts truncates the end off with last entry being "1297", not even 129700. I can actually snag that one as being complete, but the last two parts don't show up.

Because the length of the recording does the list array run out of steam? It would be fantasitic if the next rev could look at this, if in the list of items to consider. This may not be an HD spoecific issue as well.

jdiner
09-12-2004, 06:09 PM
This may not be an HD spoecific issue as well.
Sounds like something in the list code is truncating some stuff.

--jdiner

bgrubb1
09-13-2004, 12:38 PM
I had the same tuncate problem on a couple of long recordings. using get instead of get parts works.

rudolpht
09-14-2004, 10:30 PM
Thanks. I was having long gets die mid stream assumbly because of recording or other activities. I actually tried putting the unit in standby and it worked flawlessly. Thanks,
Tim

bgrubb1
09-15-2004, 04:27 PM
I have been attempting to get a LONG HD movie converted and have had multiple issues. The recorded movie is ~13 gig and as a result, I have the truncation problem, so using “get parts” is not an option. In experimenting, I have found that most of my HD recordings have the “jitter” problem that has been referenced multiple times. The Jitter is noticeably worse if I run a long file through VLC versus a short file. I believe that Part of the jitter comes from tytools and it is made worse by VLC. Has anyone found a way around the truncation problem or better yet, the jitter problem ???
..Barry

redstone
09-22-2004, 07:23 PM
I have been attempting to get a LONG HD movie converted and have had multiple issues. The recorded movie is ~13 gig and as a result, I have the truncation problem, so using “get parts” is not an option.
..Barry


I just use mfs ftp to extract ALL files in .tmf format.

Than I use HDtytool to convert.

redstone
09-22-2004, 07:30 PM
When can we expect HDtytool version 4 to be merged back into the main TytoolRxx?

It is getting hard to find it in this long thread so I have saved it on a website that I simply email the url to get it.

It would be a lot simpler if it was merged back into the main branch though.

On a related note, how are you doing on the OTA issue?

I have been 'talking up' your tool to increase the paypal donations but many folks are waiting for a more complete tool before they pay up.

A bunch of us (over 250 people at last count) have our own dedicated HDTIVO 'upgrade' forum elsewhere so Tytool gets a lot of attention.

Thanks

jdiner
09-29-2004, 11:53 PM
I had the same tuncate problem on a couple of long recordings. using get instead of get parts works.
If you still have this or if anyone has a show that is showcasing the truction error I would like to get a copy of the NewShowing.tcl output. Not from TyTool but right from a manual run of the NowShowing.tcl stuff. If anyone can provide that for me I can get that problem fixed once and for all.

--jdiner

jdiner
09-29-2004, 11:55 PM
Has anyone found a way around the truncation problem or better yet, the jitter problem ???
..Barry
Send me the output of NowShowing.tcl unix redirect etc... and I will just fix the problem and no work around will be needed.

As for the jitter I have been trying to figure out what would cause/is causing that.

If someone has a reasonably small segment that has the jittering at least twice in it then I will dig in and see what I can do to fix it.

I have some ideas as to what is going on but I would love to get something that showcases the problem rather than try to dig through what I have now.

--jdiner

jdiner
09-29-2004, 11:57 PM
On a related note, how are you doing on the OTA issue?

I have been extremely busy with family and work pressures. I have done very little over the last few weeks. But more is coming. I am working on things right now and will be getting new releases out.

HDtivo Gop and FAE editing now works. You can resize the image so that you can edit some of these massive resolutions in a reasonably sized window. :)

Lots of good stuff coming.

--jdiner

jdiner
09-30-2004, 12:01 AM
Alright. I got a couple of PMs that piled up, sorry to those who found my PM box full recently..., and I thought I would just post the answer to the main question here.

I did not give up, give in, or quit on HDTivo support. I know what needs to be done for the next major OTA issue. I figured it out before I got so busy.

The reason I have not been around much is that I got extremely busy. Spent 14+ hours a day doing product testing for a few weeks trying to get something out the door.

That is over for a while and I have more time. So things are back in development. There is a great deal more to come that relates to HDTivos. Mostly I suppose it could be thought of as bug fixes trying to get the HD streams processing correctly. There is also a great deal non-HD related to come. New/better menus, more control of TyTool and what is going on, etc...

--jdiner

redstone
09-30-2004, 03:35 AM
Thanks, your dedication to a product that you do not even own (the HDTIVO) is greatly appreciated.

mikemav
09-30-2004, 09:37 AM
Thanks, your dedication to a product that you do not even own (the HDTIVO) is greatly appreciated.

I second that. Glad I PayPal'd. I'm not looking for any kudos....I think everyone with a hacked HD Tivo should do the same if you want to encourage development into our (growing, but still small) HT Tivo extraction world!

borghe
09-30-2004, 11:08 AM
are you looking at the sound issues with many OTA locals or is that not a priority at this time?

Thanks. :)

jdiner
09-30-2004, 05:03 PM
are you looking at the sound issues with many OTA locals or is that not a priority at this time?
That is the #1 HiDef issue at the moment.

--jdiner

desplaines
10-01-2004, 04:22 PM
HDtivo Gop and FAE editing now works. You can resize the image so that you can edit some of these massive resolutions in a reasonably sized window. :)
This is great news! I have been trying another program to accomplish edits (mpeg2vcr), but doing everything from TyTool will be much better. If you need any type of specific feedback once the new tools are released, I will be happy to help. (I have a 26GB movie recorded that can serve as a good 'huge file' test example.)

THardie
10-02-2004, 01:28 PM
I second that. Glad I PayPal'd. I'm not looking for any kudos....I think everyone with a hacked HD Tivo should do the same if you want to encourage development into our (growing, but still small) HT Tivo extraction world!

Speaking of that - jdiner - Do you have a paypal link we can send money to? I'd like to send you some...

redstone
10-02-2004, 07:22 PM
Speaking of that - jdiner - Do you have a paypal link we can send money to? I'd like to send you some...


It is in the splash screen that you get the first time you run the program.

Delete the .ini file and it will do it again.

Here is what is shown as the address (I know it works) to Paypal jdiner:

joshua@best.com

jeremyclark
10-07-2004, 02:55 AM
This might be slightly off-topic but I'm not sure if there is a better place to post it.

I have an HR10-250 and with the support of those on these forums it's hacked and I'm using jdiner's tools to extract HD Mpeg2 files to my PC. All of that works great for the most part (a debt of gratitude to jdiner and others!!).

I have a second HDTV (in my bedroom) with an HDVR2. I use MFS_FTP to transfer standard def shows back and forth (using FXP since other methods don't seem to work between 3.1.5 and 4.0 systems). This works great. Of course, using the HDVR2 there is no way to enjoy the HD Mpeg2 shows that I recorded on my other unit, even though the TV is capable of displaying it.

My question is, have any of you used any other types of devices to view the extracted HD-Mpeg2 recordings on another HDTV without the use of a second HR10-250?

Not wanting to fork out another $900 for a second HR10-250, the two alternatives I've come up with so far:

1. HTPC - build my own PC (using mainly spare parts I have) with a good video card with Mpeg2 decoder built-in and component/DVI out. If I do this, will my P4 2.2ghz spare system be fast enough? (It wasn't fast enough to display it without stuttering with my NVideo GeForce 4 card, so I'm hoping with a better video card it could handle it). What video cards have this kind of support that people would recommend?

2. Standalone media player - I tried viewing an HD Mpeg2 recording with my hacked xBox to no avail. It tries, but stutters a lot and can't handle it at all (733Mhz :)). I was checking out the $299 Roku HD1000 (http://www.rokulabs.com/products/hd1000/index.php) which claims to support playback (via Ethernet) for ATSC-compliant HD Mpeg2 streams. Has anyone successfully used this to play back recordings extracted from an HR10-250? Does TyTool support an "ATSC-compliant" stream (not sure how they define that)? BTW, Roku claims the device is Linux-based and that third-party applications are available to support additional formats - would it be possible for someone to port TyShow to this device?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, I'm sure others have or will encounter this same challenge.

Thanks,
Jeremy

desplaines
10-07-2004, 03:58 AM
Jeremy-

Building an HTPC is your best bet. I use a couple of Athlon boxes (2100 and 2500 CPUs), and both play HD MPEG files just fine, using WinDVD 6. Both have WinXP and 512 or 1024MB of memory, and both have Nforce2 motherboards (I recommend that type, and absolutely no other kind, for Athlon chips). One has an ATI Radeon 9600 video board, the other has an Nvidia FX5200. Though both boards are "DX9 hardware compliant" or something like that, I have WinDVD set to not use 'hardware acceleration'.

The Roku can play HD video, but it has to get its files from... an HTPC or other computer (so you would need a computer running anyway).

TyTool does not directly create ATSC-compliant files; currently, to create them takes two additional steps after TyTool had done its work (convert TyTool's MPEG or .vob file into a .ts, then convert that file into an ATSC-compliant (constant bit rate) .ts file).

borghe
10-07-2004, 10:07 AM
I really can't believe you would pay significantly less than $900 for an HTPC capable of storing and playing HD Video out to an HDTV. It will probably be less for sure, but for the (few?) extra dollars you will save yourself a ton of pain and suffering by just FXP'ing files between the two boxes.

just my two cents.

patriot
10-07-2004, 09:30 PM
not sure whats going on here. my HD Tivo got the new update to 3.1.5d and like most here that done this, I had to re apply all the hacks. I also found that some time durring the upgrade, my var partition got rebuilt as well. So after redoing everything, I try to use tytools like before but now I am seeing it dont like the older recordings.

Not sure about future recording to come since its only been going 1 day, but what going on is most the older shows are not wantting to download off the tivo.

It shows that they are downloading in the telnet window, but on tytools after I select the show and click get, it shows "Done... Read 2 kbytes" Ive seen this before with OTA but not Showtime and other stations.

A couple shows do try to download but after a so long it crashes tytools, the show is 0 bytes but the txt file it leaves shows the chunks up to 15300.ERROR: Out of memory getting a new MuxNode buffer!

Ok so my question is what is different?

jdiner
10-07-2004, 09:45 PM
My guess. You didn't re=hack the kernel to prevent scrambling of the shows. So it is trying to read an unscrambled show in a scrambled way and getting nothing usable out of it.

There are many ways to hack the kernel to cover this issue. One way to tell is can you play the old recording on the tivo or only the new ones?

--jdiner

patriot
10-07-2004, 10:28 PM
Yes I can do the new shows fine. I only tried one and it was SD, not HD, and to download it to the tivo, it did not have but 2 chucks, going to try a HD Show in a bit when it gets done recording.

What hack was used to prevent scrambling?
I did do the tivoapp update with the new values for my 3.1.5d upgrade.

I can play all shows on the HD Tivo fine.

jdiner
10-08-2004, 12:08 AM
What mode are you downloading in? TyStream mode I hope. Given the simplicity of the download process I am just surprised it could/would stop for anything but a completely full harddrive. It is literally a loop that reads from the server and writes it to disk.

--jdiner

rc3105
10-08-2004, 01:37 AM
...I have a second HDTV (in my bedroom) with an HDVR2. I use MFS_FTP to transfer standard def shows back and forth (using FXP since other methods don't seem to work between 3.1.5 and 4.0 systems). This works great. Of course, using the HDVR2 there is no way to enjoy the HD Mpeg2 shows that I recorded on my other unit, even though the TV is capable of displaying it.

My question is, have any of you used any other types of devices to view the extracted HD-Mpeg2 recordings on another HDTV without the use of a second HR10-250?

I'm watching hd streams via xbox and an old PII-400/ATI 7000 agp (both feed the 32" JVC) and noodling with getting 810 component output to support hd playback

if you want to build something, you can certainly do if for a lot less than the $899 another hdtivo will cost (www.ptvupgrade.com)

if you just want it to work, get another hdtivo

patriot
10-08-2004, 08:53 AM
What mode are you downloading in? TyStream mode I hope. Given the simplicity of the download process I am just surprised it could/would stop for anything but a completely full harddrive. It is literally a loop that reads from the server and writes it to disk.

--jdiner

No, I am using VSplit Mode which is what I have always used before and I preferd them split when I get them for re-editing. Should this not have worked before?

mattdb
10-08-2004, 09:51 AM
I'm watching hd streams via xbox and an old PII-400/ATI 7000 agp (both feed the 32" JVC) and noodling with getting 810 component output to support hd playback

if you want to build something, you can certainly do if for a lot less than the $899 another hdtivo will cost (www.ptvupgrade.com)

if you just want it to work, get another hdtivo


I didn't think a XBOX could support heavy of a load...Is it HD streams or is just standard streams? I really hadn't tried my XBOX because it is only 733 MHz or so.

Mattman

jdiner
10-08-2004, 02:36 PM
No, I am using VSplit Mode which is what I have always used before and I preferd them split when I get them for re-editing. Should this not have worked before?
VSplit mode has always been touchy for some unknown reason. It feeds the same exact code as is used when processing a file but like I said sometimes it is just way more touchy. (Which is how I guessed that you weren't in the right mode.)

In this case it could be the same old failures to recognize the HDTivo streams properly that I have been working on.

Try downloading the show in TyStream mode and then processing it and see what more detailed report that part will give you.

--jdiner

patriot
10-08-2004, 07:04 PM
Try downloading the show in TyStream mode and then processing it and see what more detailed report that part will give you.

--jdiner

Ok it will download the ty file, but then I try to spilt it after I download it and get the same results. What I am aiming to do is re-encode the audio and video seperatly and mux back together. I like to do my editing in vdub and avisynth with a avs file. It gives me more control. Whats really really odd is before the new update, I could do the vsplits fine. But now it dont like it. Now I get the Error,
Sorry... Failed to get the first 10 initial chunks...
Have to have at least that many to start the analysis phase...

DiffTime = 0.000000 (0) == 0.000000 Minutes
total = 131072

This is the same kind of error I get with OTA shows, but this is a Showtime. Does it with other Sat channels as well.

going to try the other show that did try to split but ran out of memory and see what it does.

redstone
10-08-2004, 07:28 PM
This might be slightly off-topic but I'm not sure if there is a better place to post it.


My question is, have any of you used any other types of devices to view the extracted HD-Mpeg2 recordings on another HDTV without the use of a second HR10-250?



Not off topic at all and there are lots of choices.

I use a MYHD card (after several post processing steps) to display on an HDTV.
There are also SW only HDTV cards that are a LOT cheaper but I do not know how well they work with data from the HDTIVO.

You can also dump to the JVC D-VHS and play the deck directly into your HDTV.

Another route is to use WINDVD or Theatertek DVD player with a graphics card set to the correct timing and resolution and connected to your HDTV.


No need to build a new PC - just use one that you have and can get the connections to the receiver and TV.

patriot
10-08-2004, 09:59 PM
Just finished with trying to get the show to vsplit on the computer that had the memory error trying to do it from the tivo. It did not show an error on the computer, it just crashed tytools at chunk 16500..

This really baffles me cause I had not had any issue with doing this before the upgrade. So now I got a ty file, is there a way to split it at all ?

jeremyclark
10-09-2004, 09:20 PM
Thanks for the thoughts guys. After reading the user forums for the Roku unit a bit I decided that wasn't a very good option, looks like they've got lots of complaints.

Riley, you truely have an XBOX playing back HD video recorded from the HR10-250? What are your specs on the box? You're not running one of the souped-up DreamX-1480 units where they've doubled the speed of the CPU, are you? When I tried it from my xbox, it certainly tried to play it, but it stuttered like it was going to die. Are you running XBMC? version? playing as .ty files or as .mpg? I'd be really excited if this worked since I already have the hardware setup.

Redstone, I read a good review of the MYHD card, sounds like you like it too? My Samsung 26" HDTV doesn't have an RGB input, it is either component, HDMI or DVI. I noticed the MYHD 120 version supports a daughterboard that is DVI, but then the card setup alone will be over $300. I don't really need to use the card as a tuner, nor do I need DVR capabilities (my Tivo does all that of course), I just want to be able to point to archived HD shows on another PC or my NAS (Linksys NSLU2).

I was also reading about the new Microsoft XP MCE 2005 edition (http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=xpmce2005&page=1), which is supposed to support HD. That's sounding very appealing, so maybe I'll wait for more reviews and hear what video cards people recommend with that system. I'm assuming the Tyshow codec would work with this just like windows media player?

rc3105
10-09-2004, 11:48 PM
plain old vanilla 733/64 softmod 1.1 xbox. boot a basic gentoo kernel with networking (no gui) then invoke a mplayer build with combined nvidia drivers ( essentially treating mplayer as though it were a mpeg decoder card or chip )

could probably get XBMP or XBMC working 'bout as well if you neuter'd the ftp server & any other cruft that eats cpu cycles

redstone
10-10-2004, 09:01 AM
Redstone, I read a good review of the MYHD card, sounds like you like it too? My Samsung 26" HDTV doesn't have an RGB input, it is either component, HDMI or DVI. I noticed the MYHD 120 version supports a daughterboard that is DVI, but then the card setup alone will be over $300. I don't really need to use the card as a tuner, nor do I need DVR capabilities (my Tivo does all that of course), I just want to be able to point to archived HD shows on another PC or my NAS (Linksys NSLU2).


So, if you have a NAS then that means you must have a couple of PC's so moving one to where the Samsung is should not be a big deal and you can extract files from the HDTVO wirelessly.

Not trying to talk you into anything but I thought I would elaborate on the MYHD card since it is central to my use of extracted shows from the HDTIVO.

The MYHD card is the only way I watch extracted files from the HDTIVO.

It also works fine with networked drives. I know that to be a fact since before the days of the HDTIVO, I shared a RAID between 2 PC's each with it's own MYHD card so I had HD OTA (as well as High Def Satellite from the now defunct DISH 5000) PVR functionality.

Can't do that wirelessly but a 100mbit full duplex network is perfect.

The card will output component or RGB and if you have the new model (the MDP120), you can use DVI as you saw.

Here is what I do to use the MYHD card (applicable to using WINDVD also):
1) Using mfs_ftp, I extract a show from the HDTIVO to the PC with the RAID in it.
2) Using HDtytool , I process the extracted .tmf file with the Process: VOB-Mux Files New Format option creating a vob file.

3)This will generate a file that will play with MYHD but if you do too large a jump with FF or RW, it will lose the audio.
We have analyzed the files from HDtytool and have found that the conversion process in Tytool does not generate 100% ATSC compliant files , which is why the FF jump causes problems with MYHD.

I just make sure I don't do FF's of about > 15 minutes and I am okay

4) An optional step is to do further post processing of the output file from HDtytool with VLC and TStoATSC and those make the files 100% compliant but I don't usually bother with this anymore since all I need FF for is commercials.

There are other considerably cheaper PC High Def cards than the MYHD that do SW decoding but I have not heard any reports on whether they play converted .mpg or .vob files.

There are also 3 other HW decoder PC cards but again, no reports on how well they work.

Maybe you can find a MDP100 on ebay?

desplaines
10-10-2004, 06:23 PM
There are other considerably cheaper PC High Def cards than the MYHD that do SW decoding but I have not heard any reports on whether they play converted .mpg or .vob files.

There are also 3 other HW decoder PC cards but again, no reports on how well they work.
Software players:
The Fusion HDTV board/software player works perfectly for HD Tivo files converted to MPEG within TyTool (HD TyTool v4). It allows 'dragging the timeline' to/from anywhere in the file without losing audio or other problems. It does not allow ff/rew, though (except timeline dragging). It does not play .vob files.

WinDVD 6 plays the same MPEG files perfectly, and allows timeline dragging as well as ff/rew without problems, and it loads the files rapidly. Opening an MPEG file in WinDVD is not 'user-friendly', though-there is not a keyboard shortcut or icon that I could find. You have to right-click and select 'open file'... and it always (re-) defaults to 'My Documents' even if you just played a file from elsewhere. It should also play .vob files.

PowerDVD 5 plays the MPEG files flawlessly, but it takes 1-2 minutes to load a 8GB+ file. FF/rew worked, and timeline dragging, if I remember right. It should also play .vob files.

VLC plays the MPEG files, but some files have 'stuttering' or 'gerkiness' not visible in the above programs.

Zoom Player using the WinDVD 6 filters would probably be the ideal software setup, but I have not made it work yet.

Hardware players:
HiPix has big problems playing Tivo MPEG files converted to .ts in VLC, but may be better if processed in TStoATSC as Redstone said. It will not play MPEG or .vob files.

MyHD has shown some stuttering on MPEG and .vob files I have seen, but I have not tried the 'new' TyTool formats to see if they are better on the systems I have had access to.

JVC D-VHS output plays the same .ts files flawlessly, via DVHStool, but lacks ff/rew in that setup.

These notes only apply to experiences I have had; others' may vary.

bcc
10-10-2004, 10:19 PM
As strictly an HD playback device, I would not recommend MyHD. It is expensive if only used for that purpose (and far less wife-proof than hd-tivo for its other uses). Also it has a plethora of bugs and limitations attributed to its use of the dated Janus chipset. Issues include problems with motherboards supporting hyperthreading and an inability to configure custom resolutions. It is also still fairly picky about what transport streams it will actually support.

Custom resolutions are important if you wish to achieve native rate HD display, or display content at the resolution it was broadcast at. Only a couple of fixed timings are hard coded into MyHD. If those timings don't exactly match your display device, you are out of luck. For example, MyHD cannot display 1080i on a panny plasma, dvi or vga (won't sync). Since MyHD's 1080i doesn't exactly match panny's, you're SOL.

Strictly software based solutions will leave you able to customize your timings with powerstrip or the like. You could get a low end radeon video card - no need for a special playback board. The catch is you'll need a fairly high performing cpu. 2.4ghz P4 won't do - try 3.0ghz. On the other hand if you're going to use the HTPC for other things such as WMV you'll want lots of cpu for that as well. For me I'd rather spend the extra cash on the general purpose cpu than on a proprietary hardware based player such as myhd.

The catch is that none of this is nearly as wife-proof as an hd-tivo. My MyHD card has just been collecting dust ever since hd-tivo came out.

redstone
10-11-2004, 05:12 PM
As strictly an HD playback device, I would not recommend MyHD.

Only a couple of fixed timings are hard coded into MyHD.


Strictly software based solutions will leave you able to customize your timings with powerstrip or the like. You could get a low end radeon video card - no need for a special playback board. The catch is you'll need a fairly high performing cpu. 2.4ghz P4 won't do - try 3.0ghz.

The catch is that none of this is nearly as wife-proof as an hd-tivo.
My MyHD card has just been collecting dust ever since hd-tivo came out.


reminds me of the debate last friday, full of half truths and distortions:)

1) The hard coded timings of 1080i and 720P in MYHD are precisely equal to the standard ATSC timings of 1080i and 720P so they work fine on my PJ and my RP HDTV.
It is just like any other High Def STB in that regard so I am puzzled what your issue with the plasma is.

2) It is true that MYHD has trouble with the output of the HDtyool because as I pointed out earlier, the data stream from HDtytool is NOT 100% atsc compliant.
A pass through VLC fixes that and so MYHD works just fine. I forgot in my earlier post to mention that as well as it fixing the FF causing audio loss.

3) You had a catch for everything in the list and let me add another Catch since the poster does not have RGBHV. He will need to spend another $129 for a transcoder when using the output of the radeon and he will be getting rather frustrated with powerstrip because it never gets (limitations of the the video card HW or driver) the timings just right so you get overscan.


4) Another item to consider is image quality. There have been plenty of shootouts between the premier SW DVD player - TheaterTek and MYHD in regards to PQ. Most folks agree that the PQ from MYHD is better than the Radeon.
So much so that MYHD is also my DVD player because it upscales DVD's to 1080i and they look stunning. My Panny RP91 has been gathering dust ever since MYHD got the DVD playback working.

5) Since my RP HDTV and my PJ accepts RGBHV, I can feed the output of my Radeon with powerstrip 1080i timings from the card with no transcoder and use WINDVD.
Since the MYHD card is MUCH easier to use with a remote,so I beg to differ with the WAF, and because of the overscan and PQ issue, I don't use WINDVD .


5) How well do the alternate methods work with network playback because recall that the poster wants to use his NAS?

If one takes everything you said as truth then the original poster is left with his original dilemma - spend $999 on a second HDTIVO.

Since you have a MYHD card collecting dust, why not sell it to him and solve his dilemma?

jdiner
10-11-2004, 06:50 PM
2) It is true that MYHD has trouble with the output of the HDtyool because as I pointed out earlier, the data stream from HDtytool is NOT 100% atsc compliant.
I have not had time to really look through things properly. if you have identified what the differences that are needed are it would help me in getting TyTool caught up and working right.

--jdiner

redstone
10-11-2004, 07:11 PM
I have not had time to really look through things properly. if you have identified what the differences that are needed are it would help me in getting TyTool caught up and working right.

--jdiner

I claim to be no expert on how these streams are to be constructed.

What I go on is that A) I gave several converted file's to a fellow who is an expert in this and he said the PID tables are wrong and I posted such in this thread a long time ago and B) when I run the trial version of the Manzanita mpeg analyzer tools, they report a gazillion errors -problem is that I wold have to buy the full version to find out what the errors are.

I wish I could help more but the license for the Manzanita tools is VERY steep.

jdiner
10-11-2004, 09:16 PM
What I go on is that A) I gave several converted file's to a fellow who is an expert in this and he said the PID tables are wrong and I posted such in this thread a long time ago and
Hummm. The PID table is part of the Transport stream stuff. Not the Program stream stuff.

The manzanita analyzer is also a transport stream system.

So what were you running things through to get a transport stream out of TyTool? Sounds like that is where the problem is occuring. Not saying it is being keyed off of something TyTool is doing but TyTool does not generate TS output files.

--jdiner

bcc
10-11-2004, 11:48 PM
reminds me of the debate last friday, full of half truths and distortions:)Hey, just filling in some of the facts you left out. Ignoring relevant facts that fail to serve your viewpoint reminds me of last Friday :)

1) The hard coded timings of 1080i and 720P in MYHD are precisely equal to the standard ATSC timings of 1080i and 720P so they work fine on my PJ and my RP HDTV.So what are the ATSC timings for 1080i? The MYHD manual claims " 1080i(1920x1080 interlaced, 33.7kHz)". Panny supports 1080i at 33.75kHz horizontal, 59.94hz vertical, 74.25 dot clock. Yet myhd cannot generate a 1080i signal that a panny plasma can sync to. Neither VGA nor DVI.

It is just like any other High Def STB in that regardApparently not because all other STBs I've tried are able to sync with pannys at 1080i (hd tivo, samsung sir-ts160).

2) It is true that MYHD has trouble with the output of the HDtyool because as I pointed out earlier, the data stream from HDtytool is NOT 100% atsc compliant.
A pass through VLC fixes that and so MYHD works just fine. I forgot in my earlier post to mention that as well as it fixing the FF causing audio loss.I did not mention hdtytool. But since it is the preferred re-muxer for tivo HD, seems pretty relevant to mention that you have to do an extra pass over your video before MYHD will play it.

I was actually just thinking about how MyHD has trouble with OTA streams it records itself. I can fairly readily reproduce audio loss with MyHD using fast forward on recordings it made (no I'm not simply having some spdif issue). If I really exercise fast forward and reverse, I can eventually get myhd to stop responding. This with a hyperthreading motherboard with hyperthreading disabled.

3) You had a catch for everything in the list and let me add another Catch since the poster does not have RGBHV. He will need to spend another $129 for a transcoder when using the output of the radeon and he will be getting rather frustrated with powerstrip because it never gets (limitations of the the video card HW or driver) the timings just right so you get overscan.I don't understand, I can output from a radeon to plasma via dvi or vga at 1368x768. Original poster said he has DVI. Now 1368x768 differs by a whole 2 pixels from the native rate of 1366x768 that my plasma wants. Adjusting the display's hsize by the two pixels gets me a great picture with no scaling. If two pixel overscan bugs you, you can buy a fancier/pricier video card such as a matrox parhelia that supports horizontal resolutions without the divisible by 8 requirement. MyHD is not pixel perfect when outputting to a panny plasma either. In fact more adjustments are required than with a radeon at 1368x768.
4) Another item to consider is image quality. There have been plenty of shootouts between the premier SW DVD player - TheaterTek and MYHD in regards to PQ. Most folks agree that the PQ from MYHD is better than the Radeon.
So much so that MYHD is also my DVD player because it upscales DVD's to 1080i and they look stunning.Powerdvd and a radeon gets you DVDs upscaled to native rate. I've done my own comparisons and can't find any picture quality improvements from DVD playback using MyHD vs my radeon on my plasma. I must be blind. And MyHD's playback controls (ff/rew) are a lot more clumsy. I gotta admit MyHD does look better than HD Tivo at 1080i however. "Soft" dvi on the tivo??

My Panny RP91 has been gathering dust ever since MYHD got the DVD playback working.Likewise for my consumer panny dvd player, except I use my radeon :) (Not that I mean to be plugging radeon so much either - nvidia should be fine too I just don't have recent experience with those cards).
5) Since my RP HDTV and my PJ accepts RGBHV, I can feed the output of my Radeon with powerstrip 1080i timings from the card with no transcoder and use WINDVD.
Since the MYHD card is MUCH easier to use with a remote,so I beg to differ with the WAF, and because of the overscan and PQ issue, I don't use WINDVD .Ok, but when I mentioned WAF I was comparing tivo playback vs HTPC (and I thought the original problem was just HD playback not general purpose use of an HTPC).

5) How well do the alternate methods work with network playback because recall that the poster wants to use his NAS?For network playback I've only used powerdvd with DVDs and I sometimes notice a sub-second hiccup about once per hour. I suspect AnyDVD or turning off windows services might solve that if it becomes an annoyance.
If one takes everything you said as truth then the original poster is left with his original dilemma - spend $999 on a second HDTIVO.If that's were the facts lead him for his particular situation, then so be it.

bcc
10-11-2004, 11:49 PM
Since you have a MYHD card collecting dust, why not sell it to him and solve his dilemma?I wouldn't think he'd want to pay near retail for a card with no warranty. And it wouldn't be worth the trouble for me to sell it at a steep discount. It makes a nice OTA HD signal tester you know :)

rudolpht
10-13-2004, 04:56 PM
I think we are vectoring off topic with the MyHD review. I have my own complaints (DVI passthrough didn't work w/ Pio plasma w/o significant noise), but it was a godsend for taping off Dish HD via the 5000 before Dish pissed off it's install premium base.

I think the objective is getting output in such a state to be able to be converted into clean/compliant TS files that can play through a DVHS, software viewer, or whatever. MyHD is just one mechanism to do it, particularly in a lower end system. I still keep, though rarely use it (also not finding DVD to be better than other native rate scaling), but I rarely archive commercial ridden OTA.

OK, back on topic, we had the issue with the array structure or whatever that caused a long recording to not show the end parts. More info on that. If captured as a single contiguous file for subsequent priocessing it goes correctly to the end. I also have had better luck with audio NOT using the newer VOB format, for what it is worth. Sorry I can't get to the technical specifics/anomalies.

Regards and thanks for the continued work on HdTy,
Tim

jdiner
10-14-2004, 01:11 AM
I also have had better luck with audio NOT using the newer VOB format, for what it is worth. Sorry I can't get to the technical specifics/anomalies.
The newer VOB format won't work on an HD stream at all. It forces the DVD spec time distance between blocks and as a result gets off darn near immediately.

I have a specifically HD new format in the works would should solve a number of problems that people are having.

--jdiner

redstone
10-16-2004, 07:46 AM
The newer VOB format won't work on an HD stream at all. It forces the DVD spec time distance between blocks and as a result gets off darn near immediately.

I have a specifically HD new format in the works would should solve a number of problems that people are having.

--jdiner

Josh,

Your statement confuses me.

The NEW format VOB or MPG choice makes files that properly play in time sync with my MYHD decoder card. It just has that quirk I mentioned where a FF DOES eliminate all audio and requires a restart of the MYHD app.


The OLD format makes files that properly play in time sync BUT FF does not work in the app at all.

jdiner
10-16-2004, 05:23 PM
Every mpeg-2 program stream/VOB is a bunch of 2048 byte PACKs. Each of these PACKs has an SCR, System Clock Reference, value.

The DVD spec definies the change between each pack with regards to DVD compliance. You get the virtual padding of mpeg-2 files by simply not having a PACK.

The old format muxer picks the best possible delta value to make everything fit and be even and regular. The new format muxer forces the use of the DVD spec values.

The data rate of the HiDef streams is so far beyond the spec that by the second or 3rd video frame it blows up completely. By that I mean you get the start of the video presentation unit with an SCR for that PACK that is after the presentation time (PTS) of it. So you are off and going to stay that way.

My guess would be the MyHD thing is ignoring the SCR and doing things in some form of a custom way.

--jdiner

bgrubb1
10-16-2004, 11:36 PM
I am probably doing something stupid, but if I am, I can't seem to figure it out. I can extract / play any non Hi-def file from my hd10-250 and play it back on a dvd / my Roku as a progrm stream or transport stream unless it is recordeded in dolby 2.0 or 5.1. I am runninf 9r17. It used to work. Anyonehave any idea what went wrong ? The playback has good video with audio that periodically stutters / stops.
Thanks in advance

redstone
10-20-2004, 07:20 AM
Josh,

As you are working with the new HD code, can you please use this file in your testing?
http://southriver.web.aplus.net/

It is about 1 Gigabyte but you can just kill it when you have enough for testing purposes.

The best solution (contrary to what others say cause they are wrong) to playback VOB or MPG files and have full remote control + the option of component or DVI, is the MYHD card.

Therefore, after you release your latest version of HDtytool, if MYHD still has troubles with the output of HDtytool, I will mail you a spare card that I have.

It has a problem where it will only display 480P to the HDTV (out of warranty so can not get it fixed) but it is a single card and has a 480i overlay window on the PC display which is all you need to see the issues. The sound will use your existing setup because you will not need the digital output.

The file that is referenced above is one that I definitely want to archive but I have been keeping the .ty and.vob files on disk until MYHD can play it perfectly.

Thanks

mattdb
10-20-2004, 05:34 PM
The best solution (contrary to what others say cause they are wrong) to playback VOB or MPG files and have full remote control + the option of component or DVI, is the MYHD card.

Thanks

Actually I use WinDVD to play the MPG's after I burned them to multiple DVD's. Works just FINE.

Matt

redstone
10-20-2004, 06:06 PM
Actually I use WinDVD to play the MPG's after I burned them to multiple DVD's. Works just FINE.

Matt


Yes,I know but my equipment is setup for Y,P,B component (I have 3 component sources and use a remote controlled switcher).
With such methods as WinDVD, I would either have to go the RGBHV & custom T/R route which would make it impossible to use the other 2 component sources or buy a transcoder and use custom T/R's to stay in the component realm from my Radeon.

That is just the video side of the equation.

With MYHD it is SIMPLE to use. It outputs 1080i component and has it's own digital coax output for sound to my receiver.


BTW, when it comes to standard def programming, I do use Tytool to make a DVD image and burn a DVD+R. That plays perfectly in my standalone Panasonic RP91 DVD player so I do not need MYHD for the standard def stuff.

Currently though, DVD's are impractical for the High Def stuff as they don't hold enough (and my standalone would not give you anything beyond 480P anyway)
My LOTR:Return of the King from HD PPV is a 27 Gbyte file.

bcc
10-20-2004, 09:00 PM
Yes,I know but my equipment is setup for Y,P,B component (I have 3 component sources and use a remote controlled switcher). With a radeon you can break out and output analog component from VGA/DVI using a simple dongle.
With such methods as WinDVD, I would either have to go the RGBHV & custom T/R route which would make it impossible to use the other 2 component sources or buy a transcoder and use custom T/R's to stay in the component realm from my Radeon.Nope, the radeon will output the component directly - no transcoding required.
With MYHD it is SIMPLE to use.Users who enjoy the variable fast forward of a tivo or consumer dvd should be disappointed by myhd's "SIMPLE" fixed jump fast forward. And have I mentioned ensuing lock ups and audio dropouts from its use?
It outputs 1080i component(Just not to leading plasma displays such as those from panasnoic.)
and has it's own digital coax output for sound to my receiver.Which won't allow pass-through from any existing spdif output that one's htpc likely has.
My LOTR:Return of the King from HD PPV is a 27 Gbyte file.Wow, and that's not even at full 1920x1080i. Now at current hard disk sale prices, that's about $8 to archive to hard disk. I believe d-vhs tapes will cost you more? Not to mention the d-vhs deck price.

Not trying to get you to retire your d-vhs or myhd; just can't let all this misinfo go by. I'm sure your solution is fine for you personally. Besides, what I say is wrong :)

redstone
10-21-2004, 08:29 AM
With a radeon you can break out and output analog component from VGA/DVI using a simple dongle.Nope, the radeon will output the component directly - no transcoding required.

Can you provide me a link that discusses this particular model of the Radeon? You are tallking about 3 wire (YPB) component and NOT DVI - right?
Not the ATI site either.



Which won't allow pass-through from any existing spdif output that one's htpc likely has.
The sound system on my PC is an either/or type deal. If I tell it to output via SPDIF to the main receiver for movie watching , I lose the ability to output stereo to the other receiver which I use to drive my B&W 602's.

If I could find an alternative playback method to MYHD that 1) Does not degrade PQ and 2) allows me to stay in the YPB realm, due to my YPB switch for my multiple sources, without having to muck with Powerstrip and spend $$$ on a transcoder, I suppose I could put a second sound system in my PC to drive the B&W's.
Sorry for the run on sentence.


I case you are confused by my need for 2 sound outputs, The PC that houses the MYHD is my most powerful PC and is in my den adjacent to the Home Theater room. It has a RAID and is the same one I use to do all the video post processing.
I have the cables run through the wall to the Sound and Video equipment in the Home Theater room.




Wow, and that's not even at full 1920x1080i.

That puzzled me too because 1) The PQ is outstanding ie. not the HDTV lite that Directv has been doing these days on HDnet,SHOHD and HBOHD and 2) the data size is consistent with full data rate HDTV ie. 8 Gb/Hour x 3.5 Hr movie = 28 Gbyte

HBOHD is supposedly 1920x1080i but "The Ring" which I downloaded is only 10 Gbytes when I would have expected it to be more like 15 Gbytes since it is almost 120 minutes long.


Let's keep the idea's flowing about how to playback the converted files from a PC via component output without needing to putz with such things as Transcoders and Custom Timing/Resolutions.

mikemav
10-21-2004, 10:16 AM
That puzzled me too because 1) The PQ is outstanding ie. not the HDTV lite that Directv has been doing these days on HDnet,SHOHD and HBOHD and 2) the data size is consistent with full data rate HDTV ie. 8 Gb/Hour x 3.5 Hr movie = 28 Gbyte

HBOHD is supposedly 1920x1080i but "The Ring" which I downloaded is only 10 Gbytes when I would have expected it to be more like 15 Gbytes since it is almost 120 minutes long.


Let's keep the idea's flowing about how to playback the converted files from a PC via component output without needing to putz with such things as Transcoders and Custom Timing/Resolutions.

One thing I noticed is smaller files vs. MyHD captures EVEN ON OTA! I have an archived recording of my fav PBS HiDef special (Van Gogh's Van Gogh's) and I also recorded it on the Tivo. Both came OTA from DC local PBS (WETA.) I noticed the TiVo one was smaller, and then I figured out why. Since WETA broadcasts about 4 sub-channels on their channel, MyHD captures them all. I think when Tivo records an OTA station it only gets the sub-channel you select (in this case, 26.1, the true HD one.) Not sure how that relates to the DTV stations though, but I heard someone said once they were mostly 1280x1080i or some strange hybrid res a while back. It would be easy to check. When playing back a converted DTV capture on MyHD, just hit enter to get the file info, and the res will show on screen. I'm pretty sure HDTyTool does not change the res at all, so whatever MyHD reports is probably how it was broadcast by DTV.

redstone
10-21-2004, 10:36 AM
One thing I noticed is smaller files vs. MyHD captures EVEN ON OTA! I have an archived recording of my fav PBS HiDef special (Van Gogh's Van Gogh's) and I also recorded it on the Tivo. Both came OTA from DC local PBS (WETA.) I noticed the TiVo one was smaller, and then I figured out why. Since WETA broadcasts about 4 sub-channels on their channel, MyHD captures them all.


However:)

When I used to be able to record HBOHD/SHOHD,etc. programming from my DISH 5000 HD mod rig with MYHD, they were always ~8 Gbytes/hour with MYHD and there are NO subchannels on those stations cause they came from the sat.

Also how does one explain that the Directv HDPPV recording I made on the HDTIVO of LOTR:Return of the King IS ~8 Gbytes/hour yet they are NOT from HBOHD on Directv?

Actually, the number is more like 9 Gbytes per hour because the ATSC spec is 19.2 Mbps which equals ~9 Gbytes/hour

mattdb
10-21-2004, 10:49 AM
My LOTR:Return of the King from HD PPV is a 27 Gbyte file.



I also recorded this off HDPPV on my HDTiVo and my ty file is 19.3 GB (20,803,747,840 bytes)

I have used TyTool to convert and split and burn to 5 DVD's.

MPG1 is 3.84 GB (4,124,762,116 bytes)
MPG2 is 3.97 GB (4,271,017,988 bytes)
MPG3 is 3.90 GB (4,196,409,348 bytes)
MPG4 is 3.73 GB (4,005,591,044 bytes)
MPG5 is 4.03 GB (4,337,698,820 bytes)

Total is 19.47 GB (20,935,479,316 bytes)

Total cost with Cases about $2.50.

Mattman

bcc
10-21-2004, 12:35 PM
Can you provide me a link that discusses this particular model of the Radeon?http://www.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html
If you want discussion, there is repeated discussion of it over at avsforum and also rage3d.com.
You are tallking about 3 wire (YPB) component and NOT DVI - right?There are two models of dongles to choose from - 1 to adapt DVI to 3 wire component, and one for VGA to 3 wire component. Depending upon the model of radeon you have, one or the other is required (or you could build your own).
The sound system on my PC is an either/or type deal. If I tell it to output via SPDIF to the main receiver for movie watching , I lose the ability to output stereo to the other receiver which I use to drive my B&W 602's.I didn't follow all that. I used to run 2 SPDIF off of my HTPC, one from MYHD and one from the motherboard's sound card. You have to separately switch your receiver between the two inputs depending upon what application on the HTPC is generating the sound. (Thus my comment about MYHD's lack of SPDIF pass-through being an issue).
If I could find an alternative playback method to MYHD that 1) Does not degrade PQ and 2) allows me to stay in the YPB realm, due to my YPB switch for my multiple sources, without having to muck with Powerstrip and spend $$$ on a transcoder, I suppose I could put a second sound system in my PC to drive the B&W's.
Sorry for the run on sentence.YMMV, but I definiately had to muck with powerstrip due to panasonic's lack of proper EDID data for native rate resolution.
That puzzled me too because 1) The PQ is outstanding ie. not the HDTV lite that Directv has been doing these days on HDnet,SHOHD and HBOHD and 2) the data size is consistent with full data rate HDTV ie. 8 Gb/Hour x 3.5 Hr movie = 28 GbyteRight, so then excessive compression is making more of a visual impact than lowering the horizontal resolution. Still I would be a bit annoyed about ordering HD PPV and not getting 1920x1080i.

bcc
10-21-2004, 12:50 PM
Also how does one explain that the Directv HDPPV recording I made on the HDTIVO of LOTR:Return of the King IS ~8 Gbytes/hour yet they are NOT from HBOHD on Directv?Ok, so directv dynamically fools with compression ratios. I don't think this is news. I guess since your PPV show was still near the max bandwidth you should be happy. On the flip side I've seen 1920x1080i look pretty crappy when there is a lot of motion. For example, check out jay leno when a guest strolls out on stage. The close up of the star walking will lack detail and usually pixelates, due to the motion.

I've seen both 1920x1080i and 1280x1080i on HBO HD. biker.ty was an example of 1920x1080i from HBO.

mattdb
10-21-2004, 12:51 PM
.YMMV, but I definiately had to muck with powerstrip due to panasonic's lack of proper EDID data for native rate resolution.

What panny are you running? If it is the L300U, what are your powerstrip settings?

Mattman

bcc
10-21-2004, 01:21 PM
What panny are you running? If it is the L300U, what are your powerstrip settings?th-50phd6uy. Newer firmware for the DVI card actually has the EDID fixed, so I don't think one would need powerstrip in that case.
PowerStrip timing parameters:
1368x768=1368,78,184,178,768,3,6,29,87394,272

Generic timing details for 1368x768:
HFP=78 HSW=184 HBP=178 kHz=48 VFP=3 VSW=6 VBP=29 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1368x768" 87.394 1368 1446 1630 1808 768 771 777 806 +hsync +vsync

mattdb
10-21-2004, 01:29 PM
PowerStrip timing parameters:
1368x768=1368,78,184,178,768,3,6,29,87394,272

Generic timing details for 1368x768:
HFP=78 HSW=184 HBP=178 kHz=48 VFP=3 VSW=6 VBP=29 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1368x768" 87.394 1368 1446 1630 1808 768 771 777 806 +hsync +vsync


Those are for the L300U projector? Mine are nothing like that.

Matt

bcc
10-21-2004, 02:06 PM
Those are for the L300U projector? No - see above

redstone
10-21-2004, 06:37 PM
I also recorded this off HDPPV on my HDTiVo and my ty file is 19.3 GB (20,803,747,840 bytes)

I have used TyTool to convert and split and burn to 5 DVD's.


Total cost with Cases about $2.50.

Mattman

Are you referring to LOTR:Return of the King?

If so, I wonder why your recording was 19 GB and mine was 27. That is nearly a full hours's worth of data difference .



Also, where are you getting your DVD's?
Best price I found was $34.88 + shipping for a 50 spindle pack of certified 8x Memorex DVD+R's which would have cost me $3.50 (using your sizes) with no cases.

Thanks

redstone
10-21-2004, 06:58 PM
bcc,

The following comments/questions are for the High def stuff only. I am using my standalone DVD player for standard def.

Here is what I have found with 3 playback methods if I do a straight .ty to VOB New Format with HDTytool V4:
1) PowerDVD stutters and pauses like crazy so much so that it is completely unwatchable
2) WinDVD seems to play it just fine (only watched about 15 minutes on my PC monitor)
3) MYHD will lose the audio if I do ANY fast forwarding.

If I run that VOB file through VLC and make it a Transport stream file, it plays flawlessly with MYHD.
BTW, The new kid on the block,Mpeg2repair, says there are zero errors in the output from VLC.

The thing is that even on my 3.0 Ghz P4 ,SATA RAID 0 XP system, Having to go through that VERY time consuming process of running VLC is a royal pita and I would like to skip it.

Have you had a chance to compare PQ on your High Def display between MYHD and whatever SW DVD player you are using?

Have you seen the same results as I described in #1 and #2 above?

I suspect that Josh is never going to be able to make one pass MYHD playable VOB's with HDtytool so I am starting to think about our previous discussion about Radeon's and HDTV adaptor's.
Hence my questions and the data points about what plays what above.

By one pass, I mean .ty to .vob and NOT having to run VLC.

Thanks

mikemav
10-21-2004, 08:49 PM
bcc,

The following comments/questions are for the High def stuff only. I am using my standalone DVD player for standard def.

Here is what I have found with 3 playback methods if I do a straight .ty to VOB New Format with HDTytool V4:
1) PowerDVD stutters and pauses like crazy so much so that it is completely unwatchable
2) WinDVD seems to play it just fine (only watched about 15 minutes on my PC monitor)
3) MYHD will lose the audio if I do ANY fast forwarding.

If I run that VOB file through VLC and make it a Transport stream file, it plays flawlessly with MYHD.
BTW, The new kid on the block,Mpeg2repair, says there are zero errors in the output from VLC.

The thing is that even on my 3.0 Ghz P4 ,SATA RAID 0 XP system, Having to go through that VERY time consuming process of running VLC is a royal pita and I would like to skip it.

Have you had a chance to compare PQ on your High Def display between MYHD and whatever SW DVD player you are using?

Have you seen the same results as I described in #1 and #2 above?

I suspect that Josh is never going to be able to make one pass MYHD playable VOB's with HDtytool so I am starting to think about our previous discussion about Radeon's and HDTV adaptor's.
Hence my questions and the data points about what plays what above.

By one pass, I mean .ty to .vob and NOT having to run VLC.

Thanks

Redstone- have you tried TheaterTek 2? It is out now, and supposedly plays MyHD files and other .tp/.ts streams as well, in addition to being (almost) everyone's favorite software DVD player for quality and ease of use. I am in the MyHD camp for DVDs w/ you, but am curious to try TT2. I have not pulled the trigger yet, mostly due to lack of time. (With your help) I already have Girder. et all configured for MyHD, so changing sounds daunting. But,....even our mutual DC/MIT friend said he now prefers the pic quality of TT2 over MyHD on DVDs. If you have the horsepower for software HD playback, it may be worth a try. Sounds like from your sys description you would have enough power.

bcc
10-21-2004, 09:57 PM
1) PowerDVD stutters and pauses like crazy so much so that it is completely unwatchable
2) WinDVD seems to play it just fine (only watched about 15 minutes on my PC monitor)Strange that powerdvd fails. I assume these tests are with the same PC. I wonder what your directshow filters were.
Have you had a chance to compare PQ on your High Def display between MYHD and whatever SW DVD player you are using?Unfortunately my 3ghz machine isn't my HTPC so I don't have direct A/B comparisons of video between myhd and software players. My HTPC's cpu is under powered - only 2.4ghz - so all software players stutter at 1080i.
Have you seen the same results as I described in #1 and #2 above?No, powerdvd played back 1080i without stutter last time I tested it at 3ghz.

rudolpht
10-22-2004, 02:12 AM
Are you referring to LOTR:Return of the King?

If so, I wonder why your recording was 19 GB and mine was 27. That is nearly a full hours's worth of data difference .


My vob clocked in at 19.6GB but my ts clocked in at 27GB too.

contemplativo
10-22-2004, 03:47 AM
The new kid on the block,Mpeg2repair, says there are zero errors in the output from VLC.
I did a google search for Mpeg2repair and came up with nothing. Can you direct me toward information on this program? Thanks.

redstone
10-22-2004, 09:17 AM
I did a google search for Mpeg2repair and came up with nothing. Can you direct me toward information on this program? Thanks.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=442446&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

toyotafan
10-22-2004, 02:59 PM
I just bought an hdtivo and will be attempting to enable the usb ports for data extraction. I have Theatertek 2.0 and have played some transport stream files recored from a hipix, they look very good. Hopefully I'll be able to test some HD Tivo files soon.

flagmaster
10-22-2004, 10:03 PM
Im not sure if this will apply to an HR10-250, but a rather expensive way to archive HD to DVHS from DirectTV is thru a firewire modifcation, and a data convesion. Check out: 169time.com

mattdb
10-25-2004, 03:51 PM
Are you referring to LOTR:Return of the King?
If so, I wonder why your recording was 19 GB and mine was 27. That is nearly a full hours's worth of data difference .
Also, where are you getting your DVD's?
Best price I found was $34.88 + shipping for a 50 spindle pack of certified 8x Memorex DVD+R's which would have cost me $3.50 (using your sizes) with no cases.

It is ROTK. Not a TS file, but a TY file.

I get my printable to hub DVD 8x + or - R here:

http://www.meritline.com/dvd-r-hub-inkjet-printable-blank-media-discs.html

They are 100 Pack Prodisc 8X DVD-R Blank Media 4.7GB White Inkjet Hub Printable DVDR Discs, $0.42 each

100 Pack Save $5 Now With Coupon Code WM5OFF

That comes to $37.00 for 100 of -R.

Matt

jeremyclark
10-26-2004, 03:23 AM
I appreciate the responses to my questions, didn't mean to start such a heated discussion. :)

After looking at some various options, and doing more research on htpcnews and AVS, I decided to put together an HTPC and purchase an ATI Radeon 9600XT (128). I built my system over the weekend and it works pretty good. I installed MCE 2005 on it, and with WinDVD installed as the Mpeg decoder, I'm able to watch the Hi Def Mpeg feeds that I archived using TyTool. So I'm excited about that! And I should be able to store the files on my NAS and access them remotely.

I was also looking at ways to access the files from MCE directly from the HD10-250. I started looking at ways I could map a network drive to mfs_ftp or something so that I could directly find the files and play them. However it seems that TyShow does not play back the HD streams that TyTool spits out. At least it didn't work with my test file. It does play the standard def .ty files however. Anyone had success playing back Hi Def .ty files through Windows Media Player 10? I've got them working through MPlayer, but then that doesn't integrate to nicely with MCE.

I may well pick up a MYHD card, or something similar that's compatible with MCE in the future so that I can also record OTA shows directly (or watch them through MCE), but for now I'm just interested in the easiest way to retrieve the files from my HR10-250 from the MCE 2005 machine. Also curious to see if others have tried this solution.

-Jeremy

redstone
10-26-2004, 06:34 AM
I appreciate the responses to my questions, didn't mean to start such a heated discussion. :)

After looking at some various options, and doing more research on htpcnews and AVS, I decided to put together an HTPC and purchase an ATI Radeon 9600XT (128). I built my system over the weekend and it works pretty good. I installed MCE 2005 on it, and with WinDVD installed as the Mpeg decoder, I'm able to watch the Hi Def Mpeg feeds that I archived using TyTool. So I'm excited about that! -Jeremy
Not heated - very useful.

With this HTPC that you put together, were you feeding your High Def display (PJ,LCD,RP HDTV,etc.) or just watching on the PC's monitor?

If so, did you have to use Powerstrip for the custom timings or does the driver support the standard 1080i timings?
If so, were you using the High Def dongle and with that were you feeding Component or DVI to your equipment..

Thanks

redstone
10-26-2004, 06:43 AM
I was also looking at ways to access the files from MCE directly from the HD10-250. I started looking at ways I could map a network drive to mfs_ftp or something so that I could directly find the files and play them.


I may well pick up a MYHD card, or something similar that's compatible with MCE in the future so that I can also record OTA shows directly (or watch them through MCE),-Jeremy

There are ways of mapping the TIVO's drive so you see it directly on your PC (Riley in the other HR10-250 thread gave us any idea how) but the problem is that at ~1.6 Mbytes/second network throughput (best cae I have ever gotten) from the HDTIVO,you will never be able to properly play back High def progarmming without massive stuttering. You need to be around 2 Mbytes/second.

ON your other comment, why use a MYHD if you are successfully feeding your TV with the Radeon?

redstone
10-26-2004, 07:07 AM
It is ROTK. Not a TS file, but a TY file.


Matt

Interesting. Look at the enclosed directory snapshot of ROTK.

It shows the original .ty file, the vob output from Tytool and the output from VLC (the .tp) which fixes the FF issue.

My TY file is much larger.


Also, thanks for the link. I did order a set of +R disks from them for when I make Photo or data DVD's for friends/family.

However,
Ever since evidence of DVD rot starting showing up last year, I am a bit nervous about using generic brands for long term video archival so I guess I will just keep spending a bit more for the Memorex 8x +r disks that I am using (.69/disc) for HDTVO recordings.

jeremyclark
10-26-2004, 11:19 PM
With this HTPC that you put together, were you feeding your High Def display (PJ,LCD,RP HDTV,etc.) or just watching on the PC's monitor?

If so, did you have to use Powerstrip for the custom timings or does the driver support the standard 1080i timings?
If so, were you using the High Def dongle and with that were you feeding Component or DVI to your equipment..


My display is a new Samsung 26" flat-tube HDTV w/built in tuner that I picked up at Best Buy for $630. The model is TX-P2670WH. It's native resolution is 1080i/480p. I'm hooking it up direct with DVI (although the manual says it doesn't work with PC connection it seems to work fine). When I first tried it with a GeForce4 ti4200 card, I wasn't able to get it to work at 1080i, even with Powerstrip (of course I got frustrated and gave up, so maybe I could have got it working eventually). I then bought the ATI card and just using the newest Catalyst drivers was able to get it work at 1920x1080 resolution.

Now I'm relatively new to the HTPC world, but it seems that my picture isn't as clear at that resolution as it should be. Or maybe I'm just expecting it to be too much like a flatscren monitor... the desktop looks a bit blurry (dialog boxes and text are hard to make out). But when I run MCE with it's large fonts, or watch the hi def mpeg files, they look very nice! The spec sheet (http://www.samsungusa.com/SamsungUSA/PRODUCT/20040924/TX-P2670WH.pdf) for my tv says something about maximum 800 lines of horizontal resolution... could anyone help me out here - does that mean my native resolution is really 800x450 or something? Maybe I shouldn't bother trying to go that high as it's really just having to blur/anti-alias everything? I also get some overscan, as the taskbar isn't viewable. Would Powerstrip help my situation any? At least get rid of the overscan? I've been unable to find any timings for this TV as of yet.

Per your other question, the reason I'm still interested in possibly picking up an MCE-supported HDTV card would be to record local hdtv shows and not have to go through the HR10-250 > TyTools > NAS > MCE process just to watch Lost upstairs in my bedroom. :)

rudolpht
10-27-2004, 09:23 PM
To continue to OT: Powerstrip should help, but it will not improve beyond the lines of resolution. Interlaced video will always look blurry. Overscan you need to address in the set itself. MyHD is not MCE 2005 compatible (or not recognized). HDTV Wonder is the only card I know that is (for HD). http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=5&forumid=25 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=5&forumid=26 are great resources for both topics

Back to our regularly scheduled HDtytools discussion :)

bcc
10-27-2004, 09:38 PM
I've got them working through MPlayer, but then that doesn't integrate to nicely with MCE.What would it take for it to integrate nicely with MCE?
spec sheet for my tv says something about maximum 800 lines of horizontal resolution... could anyone help me out here - does that mean my native resolution is really 800x450 or something?That means your native resolution is around SomethingX800. Recommend you try the moninfo program: http://www.entechtaiwan.net/util/moninfo.shtm to see if your display is advertising its native rate via VESA EDID info.

desplaines
10-28-2004, 01:07 AM
The spec sheet for my tv says something about maximum 800 lines of horizontal resolution... could anyone help me out here - does that mean my native resolution is really 800x450 or something?
Jeremy-

Basically, yes, that does mean 'about' what you said. True horizontal resolution specifications should be related to 'picture height'-that is, on a 4:3 display, '600 lines horizontal resolution' should mean that the display can display 600 lines in the same width as its height, which would be a total of 800 lines across a 4:3-ratio screen. However, no consumer TV manufacturer follows this strict standard, but rather their 'horizontal resolution' spec is the total number of lines possible across the entire width of the screen (in this case a 16:9 display). Assuming the display resolution is symmetrical H versus V, your '450 lines vertical resolution' is right on the money. That would explain why a 1920x1080 desktop is 'blurry'-it is the only thing you have looked at that truly tries to use individual rows/columns of a 1920x1080 grid. The TV can 'accept' any of several resolutions perhaps, but CRT displays do not have a 'native resolution' the way LCD/DLP/plasma displays do.

You could prove most of this by setting Powerstrip to one of its "960x540p HDTV-derived" settings and then playing the same MPEG files-I would expect them to look neither better nor worse on that monitor than with the 1920x1080i desktop.

If you do try this, leave another message here with the results.

In the meantime, I have been playing with various file formats of HD Tivo-converted files, and I have the same results as Redstone: on the MyHD, 'old MPEG' stutters terribly and does not allow fast forward/rewind, 'old VOB' plays smoothly but no ff/rew, and both 'new' formats play smoothly and allow ff/rew-but they lose audio as soon as you use ff/rew. Interestingly, both 'old' formats allow 'time-dragging' on the MyHD panel without losing audio. Converting to TS with VLC is the best for the MyHD (for me at least)-it plays smoothly and allows ff/rew/dragging without losing sound (though I have not tried a large file yet... I also have a 26GB Return of the King .ty file I can try). But... WinDVD 6 does not play TS files :( I wish there was a 'plays in everything' format!

rudolpht
10-28-2004, 09:19 PM
WinDVD will play TS files. Try it, they just may not show up so try all files or just change the extension. They look very good on WinDVD actually.

snoots
10-29-2004, 09:40 PM
I have my hdtivo set up to extract shows, I am having no luck with extracted shows. I am extracting using the ty format, when I try to use any of the mux options tytools looks like it's working, however the resulting mpg or vob is just a few k in size and of course does not work. If I try to play the ty using tyshow in windows media player they will play but often skip and **** and large files don't play at all. I have a CSI NY that is around 8gig and media player chokes on it and tytool won't create vobs or mpegs that will play. I also notice that during the actual extraction phase if my tivo is playing live tv the picture and sound will freeze randomly. Is this just that the tivo hardware is not up to task or does my tivo have a hardware or software problem ? I am ruuning 3.1.15e with tivoapp patched, linksys 200m network adapter . I can post more details but was curious if any of these symtoms have been seen before on the hr10-250, I am running tytool version 17 from the top of the extraction thread. Thanks, Snoots

snoots
10-30-2004, 10:40 AM
Well last night I was able to extract a discovery HD show that was around 8 gig, process it with tytools and it plays back just fine on my pc using windvd. I did notice that the tivo would not respond very well to keypress on the remote during the extraction and if live tv was on there was some drop outs and freezes in the video and audio. I have also noticed that the video that I have been able to process may or may not play back using different software tools. For example the Discovery HD will play in WinDVD but not theatre tek. But the OTA football I recorded will play in theatretek but not WinDVD but has no audio for some reason. I am processing them using the same options so I'm not sure whats happening. If anybody has a detailed description of which options work best in Tytools for processing HD I would appreacite any guidance,

Thanks, Snoots

rudolpht
10-30-2004, 01:33 PM
I am running tytool version 17 from the top of the extraction thread. Thanks, Snoots

Have you tried HDTyT4_16.exe, the HDtytools is more effective with HDtivo streams.