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teufel903
07-06-2004, 10:41 PM
Okay I'm totally fed up right now. I have been trying to figure out this problem for almost 2 weeks now and cannot find anything in the forum's. If I cannot figure this problem out soon Im going to switch to beyond tv 3 even tho I love my dtivo so much. I will try my best to explain. The problem I am having is after I create my vob files with VOB-MUX in ty tools version "TyTool9r14" I seem to have a ton of interlacing artifacts on screen durring dvd playback on my SA dvd players and on my PC. I will explain the steps I use to create a dvd...

everything is done with "TyTool9r14" except for the burning part. I have a dtivo dvr40 series2

1) extract .ty files using with tystream mode.
2) make and edit keyfiles (I Dont use this step all the time but the interlacing seems to be there if I do or don't do this)
3) VOB-MUX with standard MUX output mode. This seems to be where the problem is created because if I just playback the .vob files that were just created with powerdvd I can see the interlacing artifacts clearly.
4) Create IFO files/dirs
5) Burn with nero 6.3.1.15

I have a feeling it's something stupid that im missing. If anyone has an idea of what im doing wrong please reply.


here is my MUXING log

Mux'ing (with cuts): D:\Backup\dtivo\Rocky IV\Rocky IV-.ty
Detected Tivo Type: Series2
Detected Audio Stream Type: MPEG Layer II
Final standardAudioSize = 592
Final standardFrameLength = 576
Final standardAudioDiff = 2160 or 00:00:00.024
First Video PTS: 00:03:00.625
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DiffTime = 240.205011 (240205) == 4.003417 Minutes

total = 2245525504 (2141 MB)

eastwind
07-07-2004, 03:04 PM
Have you tried playing the file before MUXing? Like with the TyShow filters?

Too me (untrained eye) it looks like a field reversal problem--like the muxer is muxing bottom field first instead of top (or vice versa). But you'll need to rule out the source as the problem first, I think. Could it just be fast motion?

ew

FredThompson
07-07-2004, 03:51 PM
Improper field order is possible but not that likely unless the source is already screwed up.

TV is interlaced and any attempt to deinterlace will always create quality problems. It consists of 2 interleaved (temporaly and physically) streams of images. With NTSC, you get ~60 fps of source, with PAL, ~ 50 fps. Deinterlacing averages them together and creates a mess.

Your hardware players are set to play in interlaced mode, aren't they?

You're not doing anything improper in the steps listed above. TyTool will not change the field order from that which is broadcast.

TyShow does a simple deinterlace so it's not useful for much of anything. Sorry, but that's the truth. d7o was supposedly going to start work on upgrading the filter but nothing has been announced for weeks. Maybe it's dead again.

teufel903
07-07-2004, 05:54 PM
Hmm very interesting thanks for your reply's ..

(eastwind)--- I have not messed with the file before MUXING and yes it is mostly fast motion but sometimes its not there during fast motion.. and its more noticable on red's for some reason. I also notice it a lot when switches scenes. all in all its not that bad of an interlacing problem.. I have seen worse but its there and it kinda gives me a headache to look at for very long.

(FredThompson)---Im not sure if the source is messed up it could be but usually when I edit the keyfiles it looks okay. When I play the VOB's created with the MUXING tool in powerdvd it looks fine but any other dvd software I play the files with on here I can see the interlacing lines. I have not messed with tyshow yet so I will give it a try when I get home later on tonight.

FredThompson
07-07-2004, 06:19 PM
TyTool is field-oriented, not frame-oriented so you won't see sawteeth. It uses line doubling in the FAE mode so the image doesn't appear squashed. Pay attention in FAE and you'll see the image dance vertically.

PowerDVD deinterlaces, so does TyShow. Perhaps your other software isn't that great and your hardware player is set to play as progressive.

teufel903
07-08-2004, 04:03 PM
I have been using the ps2 and xbox for dvd playback .. I didnt think there was a way to change it to progressive scan I have tried the dvd's in a few of my friend's SA dvd player's and they all played the dvd back with slight interlacing problem's ..

malfunct
07-08-2004, 08:09 PM
I have been using the ps2 and xbox for dvd playback .. I didnt think there was a way to change it to progressive scan I have tried the dvd's in a few of my friend's SA dvd player's and they all played the dvd back with slight interlacing problem's ..

This really does just look like normal interlaced output. I think if it was viewed on a normal quality (meaning the crap we regular people get) display instead of a high quality display you wouldn't notice this. My opinion is that the problem is not the dvd, or the dvd player, or the source video. The problem is just that when you display interlaced video the fields happen slightly off from each other in time so that field a lines won't ever line up with field 2 lines. The problem gets exacerbated by some other various issues that could be in the decoder but I doubt thats what you are seeing here. One fix that some players have is a "smoother" that just blends the stuff together so you get a softer image and the jaggies are less noticeable. Anyways, I doubt you can get rid of these issues.

I could be wrong though, again that was just my opinion.

teufel903
07-08-2004, 08:38 PM
(malfunct)---Thanks for the reply you are probably right. Having the interlacing just slightly off for me is pretty noticeable on my setup (53" toshiba with s-video). It could possibly be the decoder that sounds logical. What are some of the better decoders out there? I didn't think it would make a difference but it definetly could be possible..

malfunct
07-08-2004, 11:27 PM
(malfunct)---Thanks for the reply you are probably right. Having the interlacing just slightly off for me is pretty noticeable on my setup (53" toshiba with s-video). It could possibly be the decoder that sounds logical. What are some of the better decoders out there? I didn't think it would make a difference but it definetly could be possible..

It makes a HUGE difference which deinterlacer you use (the decoder is probably doing the right thing because it just builds the fields, its the deinterlacer that is screwing you). The best out there for deinterlacers seems to be Faroudja chips, they have lots of things they do after the frame is deinterlaced that smooths out and hides flaws you might see. As far as software players go its hard to say, though if you can find one with a motion compensating de-interlacer it should do the best job. If you get one that does chroma filtering that could help too as it would smooth out the picture.

teufel903
07-09-2004, 12:30 AM
Sorry to be such a pest but how could I figure out what deinterlacer I have on here now?

malfunct
07-09-2004, 02:22 AM
Sorry to be such a pest but how could I figure out what deinterlacer I have on here now?

You look up the specs of the mpeg2 decoder you are using. Its most likely the one that was installed when you installed dvd playing software.

eastwind
07-09-2004, 04:05 AM
What about playing with mplayer. I think it doesn't use the de-interlace filter unless you specifically tell it to.
ew