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tytyty
09-30-2004, 10:28 PM
Renaming the thread to DEPRECATED is just one way is'nt it?

Lots of people did and still do apreciate his efforts, just because there is a "new" method (with a crap licsense IMHO) does not make his method less viable.

Shame on you.

alldeadhomiez
09-30-2004, 10:53 PM
Renaming the thread to DEPRECATED is just one way is'nt it?

Nope, read the first post of this thread if you don't understand the reasons. The "new" methods are substantially less buggy and convoluted.


Lots of people did and still do apreciate his efforts, just because there is a "new" method (with a crap licsense IMHO) does not make his method less viable.

Crap license? Tell me where this (very restrictive) license came from:


TERMS OF USE
A.) REDISTRIBUTION PROHIBITED IN ANY FORM
B.) SALE OF ANY DRIVE OR UNIT MODIFIED WITH THIS SOFTWARE PROHIBITED
C.) USE OF THIS SOFTWARE TO OBTAIN THEFT OF SERVICE PROHIBITED
D.) USE OF THIS SOFTWARE TO OBTAIN AND DISTRIBUTE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL PROHIBITED

Sounds like you're just another pissed off fanboy. "Shame on you" too.

tytyty
10-01-2004, 12:13 AM
Here I go violating a forum rule ...

The first post of this thread has been heavily modified by both Sleeper (due to his own errors and certain developers threats and harrasment) and by the mods.

I stand by my previous statments.

alldeadhomiez
10-01-2004, 01:07 AM
Here I go violating a forum rule ...

The first post of this thread has been heavily modified by both Sleeper (due to his own errors and certain developers threats and harrasment) and by the mods.

I stand by my previous statments.

I'm not quite sure what you're unclear on.

The section between "Edit by mrblack51" and "Original post follows," inclusive of the dividers, was added by mrblack51. I notice that when called on to back up your criticism of the "deprecated" label, you have failed to rebut any of the statements in this section which justified it.

The section following "Original post follows" was written entirely by Sleeper, including the stringent terms you might deride as a "crap license."

I am not aware of any threats or harassment; if you are, please report the posts or PM me right away.

tytyty
10-01-2004, 02:27 AM
To clarify to you "fanboy"


a "new" method (with a crap licsense IMHO)
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=177100&postcount=1

I dont have the time or desire to post the dozens of posts slaming sleeper, who despite some serious config errors in his scripts was insrumental in giving even an monkey the ablity to begin their hacking experience on S2 units.

Props out to ingeneer you made me a better thinker.

newbie
10-01-2004, 08:57 AM
I never used Sleeper's script.

Since the script is deemed to be obsolete why is it still a "sticky"? Since the moderators think it's completely obsolete (probably is) why not move it to the sewer if you don't want to delete the thread?

Sleeper was refused permission to use the new techniques with a new script. I certainly agree the developers have the right to refuse to give Sleeper permission, for whatever reason.

Let's see, Sleeper isn't allowed to use current techniques in is tool, is banned by the board yet his tool remains at the top of the board. Kind of like someone holding a person up so someone else can continue to hit them.

Not sure if I'd call it harassment but certainly rude. You guys banned Sleeper, probably with just cause, but there is no justification as attacking his tool when he isn't able to update the tool or post here.

Sorry, I agree with tytyty.

alldeadhomiez
10-01-2004, 11:01 AM
I dont have the time or desire to post the dozens of posts slaming sleeper, who despite some serious config errors in his scripts was insrumental in giving even an monkey the ablity to begin their hacking experience on S2 units.

As you said, the Sleeper ISO was explicitly designed for inexperienced end users. As such, ANY config errors are unacceptable in an end-user grade product, and needed to be fixed immediately. Since they weren't, mrblack51 added warnings.


Since the script is deemed to be obsolete why is it still a "sticky"? Since the moderators think it's completely obsolete (probably is) why not move it to the sewer if you don't want to delete the thread?

Sleeper was refused permission to use the new techniques with a new script. I certainly agree the developers have the right to refuse to give Sleeper permission, for whatever reason.

This thread is sticky because a lot of people, particularly TCF members, still are instructed to search for "Sleeper ISO" when asking how to hack their Series2. It's also got quite a bit of necessary information for people who are still using a drive prepared by the Sleeper ISO.

The killhdinitrd license (circa August 2004) doesn't explain why nearly year-old bugs were not fixed. The two issues are completely unrelated.

newbie
10-01-2004, 11:23 AM
This thread is sticky because a lot of people, particularly TCF members, still are instructed to search for "Sleeper ISO" when asking how to hack their Series2. It's also got quite a bit of necessary information for people who are still using a drive prepared by the Sleeper ISO.

The killhdinitrd license (circa August 2004) doesn't explain why nearly year-old bugs were not fixed. The two issues are completely unrelated.

You get to make the decisions BUT it doesn't really make sense to have a buggy, obsolete program as the first thread in a forum on series 2 hacking. One would expect the first sticky to be the most important information for people who are interested in the subject of the forum. Perhaps just move the files to the file section with a note that they are being retained for "historical purposes" and are not recommended for current use. If the moderators feel so strongly that they see the need to edit the first post then they should consider moving the post to a less prominent place in the forums.

I hacked my HDVR2 before Sleeper's script, I know he was planning a revised script using intridhd but didn't realize that his scripts were buggy.

mrblack51
10-01-2004, 01:02 PM
You get to make the decisions BUT it doesn't really make sense to have a buggy, obsolete program as the first thread in a forum on series 2 hacking. One would expect the first sticky to be the most important information for people who are interested in the subject of the forum. Perhaps just move the files to the file section with a note that they are being retained for "historical purposes" and are not recommended for current use. If the moderators feel so strongly that they see the need to edit the first post then they should consider moving the post to a less prominent place in the forums.
thats an interesting suggestion. however, the edits were made so that the most people with the appropriate purpose would see the information. as stated by ADH, the intent was to ensure that people understood that there are better options available while properly warning them of the caveats of the tool. As stated numerous times on page 46 of this thread (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28921&page=46&pp=40) (assuming 40 posts per page), the tool still does the job which it originally was released to do. however, it has the issues noted in my edit. we would be derelict if we continued to promote a tool as being the proper solution when there is a better, more straight forward, more universal tool available. does the fact that the tool has been deprecated mean that people can't use it? no, but htey should know what they are getting into, have a good idea of the issues they are likely to run into, and know what more modern options are out there.

for those of you who think this is unfair, you will note that I edited my sticky post my hdvr2 hacking experience (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21103) long ago to indicate that the instructions were no longer the best method, and linked to the newer method. however, it seems that there are a number of individuals who would rather focus on the fact that there is some sort of conspiracy against sleeper.


I hacked my HDVR2 before Sleeper's script, I know he was planning a revised script using intridhd but didn't realize that his scripts were buggy.

I too used the sleeper iso as a tool, because it had the files i needed togehter at the time. I couldn't use it verbatim, due to the highly restrictive setup, but as a tool it was somewhat viable. just like any other tool, sometimes a better one comes along, eclipsing the old one.

mrblack51
10-01-2004, 01:09 PM
Renaming the thread to DEPRECATED is just one way is'nt it?

Lots of people did and still do apreciate his efforts, just because there is a "new" method (with a crap licsense IMHO) does not make his method less viable.

Shame on you.

shame on you for being short sighted, blinded by your apparent devotion to sleeper. sleeper was banned due to his own actions, and nobody elses...however, that is a topic for another thread.

as for slapping him while he is down, you will note that in january of this year, I had edited my own thread about using 3.1.u5 to indicate that it had been eclipsed by the monte method. I didn't label it as "deprecated" then, simply because at the time the forums had a different layout. I have added that to my thread as well, to properly indicate that the method I discussed was not the best way to do things - something which is now true for the monte method utilized by sleeper's tivoscripts iso.

note: once this issue is clearded, i will be editing my thread to point to killhdinitrd as the most modern method. however, i have waited on editing it to allow interested parties to verify the "edit" date on the first post.

your feelings on the license for killhdinitrd are a topic for another thread. however, as noted by ADH, sleeper's own license was equally, if not more, restrictive - calling the killhdinitrd license crap would be the big fat pot calling the kettle black.

edit: there have been some questions as to whether this thread should be moved or unstickied or whatnot. the sewer is for BS posts, so this little exchange and a few of the similar ones should be moved there, and probably will be. the files section is for files, no discussion is allowed, so it certainly isnt the place for this thread either. the s2 support forum is the correct place, because this thread is dedicated to supporting the popular but eclipsed (deprecated) tool. it is stickied to prevent the hundreds of poeple from TCF or ebay from creating hundreds of other threads about the tool, and hopefully they will read it and learn how to fix their own issues (or use the updated methods). the thread is at the top of the sticky list because the forum is sorted chronologically - something i have no control over.

tytyty
10-01-2004, 03:02 PM
Since this post is bound to end up here I may as well start here.

This is a continuation of the disscussion at the end of the (DEPRECATED) SLEEPER ISO - Series 2 Scripts for U5, Monte and Prom with many hacks thread.


Mr. Black and ADH regarding the restrictive lisence and language in the 1st posting as edited by Sleeper and the mods.

Without seeing the history of edits I have no idea when and in relationship to which bit of abuse he made the edits, I do know that when he originally released the iso that the licsense was not there so my copy would be unlicsensed. Also calling anyone who makes a positive statment about Sleeper a "fanboy" is just...........

alldeadhomiez
10-01-2004, 03:30 PM
Mr. Black and ADH regarding the restrictive lisence and language in the 1st posting as edited by Sleeper and the mods.

Without seeing the history of edits I have no idea when and in relationship to which bit of abuse he made the edits, I do know that when he originally released the iso that the licsense was not there so my copy would be unlicsensed. Also calling anyone who makes a positive statment about Sleeper a "fanboy" is just...........

Apparently you believe that anything Sleeper did with which you disagree was a result of "abuse" or "harassment."

If this is your view of Sleeper (it definitely isn't mine), how can you have so much respect for somebody who was so unwilling to stick to his principles?

In the interest of full disclosure, I seem to recall that you were selling pre-hacked DTiVo units en masse at one point. Perhaps that helps to explain why you are so bitter about the strict licenses found on TivoScripts and killhdinitrd?

Edit: split this conversation from the Sleeper ISO support thread

TheWickedPriest
10-01-2004, 06:44 PM
In the interest of full disclosure, I seem to recall that you were selling pre-hacked DTiVo units en masse at one point. Perhaps that helps to explain why you are so bitter about the strict licenses found on TivoScripts and killhdinitrd?

You know what, the license for killhdinitrd is crap, regardless of how TivoScripts was or wasn't licensed -- two wrongs don't make a right. And I've never sold a pre-hacked Tivo. Never used TivoScripts, either. I just think restrictive licensing is killing the community.

alldeadhomiez
10-01-2004, 07:01 PM
You know what, the license for killhdinitrd is crap, regardless of how TivoScripts was or wasn't licensed -- two wrongs don't make a right. And I've never sold a pre-hacked Tivo. Never used TivoScripts, either. I just think restrictive licensing is killing the community.

I really wish people would learn how to play nice so that developers weren't driven to use restrictive licenses. It's pretty clear how we wound up in this situation.

my0gr81
10-01-2004, 08:14 PM
You know what, the license for killhdinitrd is crap, regardless of how TivoScripts was or wasn't licensed -- two wrongs don't make a right. And I've never sold a pre-hacked Tivo. Never used TivoScripts, either. I just think restrictive licensing is killing the community.


How is that? How does the license restriction apply to you? You are free to download killhdinitrd and use it for yourself, so there is no restrictions, it is posted on the thread to download.

The only people that would have an issue with this are the ones trying to make a buck out of this. The tie in with ptvupgrade essentialy eliminates the loop hole with respect to damages, as there is a commercial alternative for applying the hack and damages can be substantiated (every pre-hacked unit sold is a loss to ptvupgrade).

IMHO, this is well within the boundaries and the spirit of the GPL. Linux has the distributors that ensure that a supported commercial alternatives are available, but anyone can still download distribs for their own use.

alldeadhomiez
10-01-2004, 08:43 PM
How is that? How does the license restriction apply to you? You are free to download killhdinitrd and use it for yourself, so there is no restrictions, it is posted on the thread to download.

I see a lot of value in aggregating and extending existing code. And I would be a lot happier if things were released under a license that allowed people to do so. Unfortunately, the actions of a few bad apples have annoyed some developers to the point where they are unwilling to release their code with no strings attached, out of concern that it will be abused.

It is my view that the eBay scammers and the Sleeper ISO were two critical milestones along this path. Both events increased the user base, without a corresponding increase in productivity. This has the effect of diluting the community, similar to what happened at TCF.

Mark
10-01-2004, 09:55 PM
Renaming the thread to DEPRECATED is just one way is'nt it?

Actually I don't think deprecated was meant in the Webster's dictionary sense of the word but more in the computer software sense of the word which is as follows:

Deprecated - Said of a program or feature that is considered obsolescent and in the process of being phased out, usually in favour of a specified replacement. Deprecated features can, unfortunately, linger on for many years. This term appears with distressing frequency in standards documents when the committees writing the documents realise that large amounts of extant (and presumably happily working) code depend on the feature(s) that have passed out of favour.


That seems more likely as it is a program that is being phased out.

I don't believe for a minute that mrblack51 or any other moderators here meant anything personal by adding that word to the thread's title.

my0gr81
10-02-2004, 03:32 AM
I see a lot of value in aggregating and extending existing code. And I would be a lot happier if things were released under a license that allowed people to do so. Unfortunately, the actions of a few bad apples have annoyed some developers to the point where they are unwilling to release their code with no strings attached, out of concern that it will be abused.

I agree, the ones that participate in the community but are unable to contribute code wise can help out other ways.


It is my view that the eBay scammers and the Sleeper ISO were two critical milestones along this path.

That is an interesting view, however, the same has happened to most all hacking communities, not just Tivo. Look at the XBox, PS2, and all the personal computers of all flavors. This also happened with some other tools such as cd ripping and writting and now DVD ripping and writting. The level of comfort with the tools also allows some to play hero by trying to agregate the tools into either one in all guides or tools. Actually, DVD XCopy is a perfiect example of taking the fruits of a community and trying to build a whole business with gullible investors around it.


Both events increased the user base, without a corresponding increase in productivity. This has the effect of diluting the community, similar to what happened at TCF.

As the knowlege base increases, the level of comfort with attempting mods and trying different hacks increases. That in turn draws more users in. In most cases, the users who rely on tools and guides are short term. The quality of the community is not measured by the number of members, but by the number of posts by active long term members.

alldeadhomiez
10-02-2004, 04:44 AM
That is an interesting view, however, the same has happened to most all hacking communities, not just Tivo. Look at the XBox, PS2, and all the personal computers of all flavors. This also happened with some other tools such as cd ripping and writting and now DVD ripping and writting. The level of comfort with the tools also allows some to play hero by trying to agregate the tools into either one in all guides or tools. Actually, DVD XCopy is a perfiect example of taking the fruits of a community and trying to build a whole business with gullible investors around it.

Freedom abused is freedom lost.


As the knowlege base increases, the level of comfort with attempting mods and trying different hacks increases. That in turn draws more users in. In most cases, the users who rely on tools and guides are short term. The quality of the community is not measured by the number of members, but by the number of posts by active long term members.

The quality of the community is measured by the level of innovation that takes place. When the innovators are treated poorly, everybody suffers.

mrblack51
10-02-2004, 03:06 PM
Actually I don't think deprecated was meant in the Webster's dictionary sense of the word but more in the computer software sense of the word which is as follows:

Deprecated - Said of a program or feature that is considered obsolescent and in the process of being phased out, usually in favour of a specified replacement. Deprecated features can, unfortunately, linger on for many years. This term appears with distressing frequency in standards documents when the committees writing the documents realise that large amounts of extant (and presumably happily working) code depend on the feature(s) that have passed out of favour.


That seems more likely as it is a program that is being phased out.

I don't believe for a minute that mrblack51 or any other moderators here meant anything personal by adding that word to the thread's title.

this definition is the exact definition which i was implying. deprecation is common in coding, especially with languages such as JAVA. it is absolutely not a derogatory statement, but rather a statement of fact and a notice/warning to new users of the tool/feature/whatever.

mrblack51
10-02-2004, 03:15 PM
Without seeing the history of edits I have no idea when and in relationship to which bit of abuse he made the edits, I do know that when he originally released the iso that the licsense was not there so my copy would be unlicsensed.

well, clearly you weren't all that interesed in reading the first post of that thread, since it was unchanged for months before I added the note. you lack of dilligence in ensuring you have the facts is not the fault of the moderators. you have chosen to have an attitude that leans more towards moderator conspiracies than moderators doing what is necessary to help newbies know what tools to use, what they are getting into, etc. that is your choice, though it is rather unfortunate since it doesnt do anything positive for the community.