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tmorvant
10-07-2004, 10:56 PM
Geeze enough with the 'misery loves company' crap. Look, is it not possible for someone to write a guide that includes all steps as well as detailed descriptions as to what/why things are being done. Why on earth do you have to force someone to read these endless posts to find something that is relevant. Why is the idea of stripping the 3 or 4 useful posts out of the millions of irrelevant and placing the information they are trying to convey into a document? Do you guys realize that for some people (me included) it is very difficult to get started as you use terms and concepts that are foreign. Ugghh...this is as bad as politics. The right hates making the process easy and has no empathy for newbies, and the LEFT doesn't want to learn anything. What about the moderates, that are truely interested in learning, and helping, but just can deal with the information overload to even get started!

JJBliss
10-07-2004, 11:21 PM
Geeze enough with the 'misery loves company' crap. Look, is it not possible for someone to write a guide that includes all steps as well as detailed descriptions as to what/why things are being done.
Which is wy they shouldn't write guides.

Why on earth do you have to force someone to read these endless posts to find something that is relevant.
It's called learning. Is that what your teachers/parents taught you? That if you don't know the answer to a question, bitch about the length of the textbook, and someone will throw you the answer?

Why is the idea of stripping the 3 or 4 useful posts out of the millions of irrelevant and placing the information they are trying to convey into a document?
Though that's not really a question, I assume you like that idea. The reason it's a bad idea is that the reader doesn't actually learn anything, and they are then forced to come ask the NEXT question that comes up, as opposed to learn it on their own.

Do you guys realize that for some people (me included) it is very difficult to get started as you use terms and concepts that are foreign to some people.
I'm sorry it's so hard for you.

I am a developer and have been coding for over 10 years and I even start to gloss over when trying to read these forums.
<giggle> This is not something I'd be bragging about if I were you.

Ugghh...this is as bad as politics. The right hates making the process easy and has no empathy for newbies, and the LEFT doesn't want to learn anything. What about the moderates, that are truely interested in learning, and helping, but just can deal with the information overload to even get started!
Ummm.. That's a wacky analogy, but I guess you're entitled. Hey, I have an idea. Continue reading the forums, stick around, participate more then just using the forum as a personal storefront and then add your two cents.

cojonesdetoro
10-08-2004, 01:41 PM
It would be nice if someone took the time to write a 'spoon feed' guide but that takes time and isn't much fun. You can take the time to make it all nice and wrap a ribbon and someone will still bitch about how it is poorly written or lacks detail.

BTW, Jeff Keegan already did this and he makes little money buy selling it as a book. He doesn't go much into S2 for legal reasons so you're on your own if you want that. I think it's something like 12 bux+ship at Amazon.

psxboy
10-08-2004, 02:17 PM
Lots of people have written guides over the years, and in almost every case something changes that makes the whole thing obsolete after a short time.

Case in point: http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36361

This guide was written with the Sleeper ISO as it's method of hacking, which has been depricated. While the steps and techniques are all valid, they're not recommended anymore because of new developments in bypassing the boot ROM security.

Another case: http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37295

Another guide with clear, step-by-step (you don't have to think on your own) instructions. The fatal flaw? A software update about a month later made all of the static partition numbers in the guide incorrect. It's still a good guide to learn from, but you need to use your noodle now to figure out how to apply it to your situation. And THAT'S the part I think most people who bitch about there being no hand-holding guides have the biggest problem with. (What?! You want me to think on my OWN?!)

The simple fact of the matter is that you need to learn how this stuff works and why this stuff works before you can reliably do any of it on your own. And the best way to do that is to read through the seemingly endless and irrelevant posts on this board... stick around, read what's new, come back the next day & read what else is new... before long, you'll have a handle on what's important and what isn't. If you don't want to spend the time, then you have to spend the money and get your "instant cake" from PTVUpgrade. They're there to help folks who can't/won't help themselves.


Ugghh...this is as bad as politics. The right hates making the process easy and has no empathy for newbies, and the LEFT doesn't want to learn anything.

I take offense at that, BTW... I'm a left-winger myself and I took the time to learn. Why can't you?

-psxboy

alldeadhomiez
10-08-2004, 02:37 PM
It would be nice if someone took the time to write a 'spoon feed' guide but that takes time and isn't much fun. You can take the time to make it all nice and wrap a ribbon and someone will still bitch about how it is poorly written or lacks detail.

Even when somebody does this, maintenance and support are the two critical areas which always get neglected.

So let's look at a typical guide or autoinstall script, from cradle to grave:

1) Some guy decides that hacking is too hard, and thinks he's going to save the world by making it s00par-easy for people to get started. After all, isn't his grandmother entitled to easy extraction and DVD archiving of her Matlock episodes?

2) He releases something that pertains to somewhat current versions of a bunch of existing utilities. He doesn't link to the original threads, so nobody can take advantage of updates or errata. He doesn't understand how most of the stuff works, so he ignores all potential pitfalls. After all, if it worked fine for him, it will work in every other possible configuration, right? Our hero is undeterred by corner cases, warnings, and all that other "technical" stuff that the developers keep yammering on about. What do they know, anyway? They're just a bunch of stupid engineers who can't even figure out how to get a date.

3) He is deluged with fanboys who stroke his ego and tell him that his release is the best thing since sliced bread. He decides to put up a paypal link, because after all, why shouldn't he receive credit for and profit from the hard work of all the people who made his release possible?

4) After a month or three, our hero gets tired of keeping the guide/script up to date, so he just doesn't bother. After all, what worked in 2002 will still work today, right? 3.1.U5 oughta be enough for anyone. If you don't agree with everything he does, you're just an elitist.

5) Our hero soon gets tired of answering support questions about the guide/script, and starts telling people to read and search. Never mind that his original goal was to keep people from having to read and search through thousands of posts to get things working.

6) He eventually stops visiting the board entirely, and moves on to something else, leaving his "valued customers" high and dry. Optionally, he becomes abusive toward the developers whose work he misappropriated, and gets exiled from the community.

7) A few hundred or thousand users who never really learned what they were doing in the first place repeatedly bump into walls and break things, and then blame the hobby's true innovators for not making things "easy" enough for them.

8) The fanboys lash out against the developers and the senior members, complaining that "the man is keeping them down" or spew some other inflammatory rhetoric. Never mind the fact that the developers continue to post useful information and programs for the community's benefit, and expect nothing in return.

9) Each time, a few more developers get fed up with this nonsense, cut their losses, and move on to other projects.

10) A few weeks or months later, somebody else repeats the same exact mistakes. Return to step 1.

AlphaWolf
10-08-2004, 02:51 PM
Geeze enough with the 'misery loves company' crap. Look, is it not possible for someone to write a guide that includes all steps as well as detailed descriptions as to what/why things are being done.

You make it sound simple, why don't you write one then?

There are many guides out there, too many to count. All of them are now obsolete. In fact pretty much any guide you write is pretty much guarenteed to go obsolete within a period of 2-4 months, if it even lasts that long. Something new always happens which throws out the ways of the old.

E.g. userland replaced killinitrd, monte replaced userland and changed pretty much everything, then killhdinitrd replaced monte and did it yet again.

Noscramble modules replaced the kernel patches, then kmem replaced the kernel modules, then tivoapp patches replaced kmem and ever since around this period the focus of the hacking scene shifted away from the kernel and started a huge emphasis on patching tivoapp for pretty much everything. That lead to the auto-key scripts becoming mostly obsolete, etc.

NutKase
10-09-2004, 12:00 AM
This is a great thread. I hope everyone will read it :).

alldeadhomiez, et al..., there's no way all my whining could say it more clearly.

'MeeToo' :(...

Sorry, did it again. :)


NutKase

Tiros
10-10-2004, 02:21 PM
'MeeToo' :(...
Sorry, did it again. :)
NutKase

Talk about fanboys!
Give it a rest NutJob, maybe if you pulled your head out of ADH's a** you would have time to learn how to do some real hacking. Judging from the technical content of your posts, you can barely write a script and don't have a clue about assembler or C. Great butt licking signature too! I'll bet YOU Sleepered YOUR Tivo. I guess by sucking up to the mods, you hope to gain stature in the community. Good luck!

ADH,
I have tried to avoid going here again but you just never stop.
It's always the same rhetoric:
Boo Hoo Hoo
Sleeper stole the glory for all of our hacks.
We have to make sure nothing like this happens again! :mad:
Don't Sleeper! It's Deprecated!
Use my "new cooler" hack.
You need to get a new song.



Ugghh...this is as bad as politics. The right hates making the process easy and has no empathy for newbies, and the LEFT doesn't want to learn anything. What about the moderates, that are truely interested in learning, and helping, but just can deal with the information overload to even get started!

The guy makes a legitimate point and is promptly attacked by the "Right".
This man is not a retard. Until Sleepers next release you can expect more of the same from new users. Likes it or not the Sleeper ISO is still usefull. It gets you Bash. Once you have bash, there is still plenty to learn.
There are of lot of people (professionals) who can write programs/scripts who do not know or care how to set up an OS. But hey let's run them out of town because they don't understand how to Monte. :confused:

It's senseless to keep arguing about it. The Left will never convince the right.
Just give it a rest!

AlphaWolf
10-10-2004, 02:38 PM
Give it a rest NutJob, maybe if you pulled your head out of ADH's a** you would have time to learn how to do some real hacking. Judging from the technical content of your posts, you can barely write a script and don't have a clue about assembler or C.

Well if it is any consolation, he was just talking about assembler a few hours ago in IRC. BTW, keep it up and comments like that will get you a one way ticket to ban city.

Bottom line is, if you think a guide will be useful, then quit bitching and don your hero cape and write your own.

NutKase
10-10-2004, 02:42 PM
Talk about fanboys!
Give it a rest NutJob, maybe if you pulled your head out of ADH's a** you would have time to learn how to do some real hacking. Judging from the technical content of your posts, you can barely write a script and don't have a clue about assembler or C. Great butt licking signature too! I'll bet YOU Sleepered YOUR Tivo. I guess by sucking up to the mods, you hope to gain stature in the community. Good luck!


Once again, you prove what an A$$ you are.

I clearly and publicly state and prove that I know very little about coding, either in assembler or C.

I do know about tivo hacking methods, history and present, and I try to help those willing to learn.

I've never booted Sleeper on my or any other tivo.

It's not Right and Left, it's:

Learn and do it yourself so you can support yourself - and - Do it for me then support me.

I've followed your attitude for a while and I hope this is the last time. I won't be responding again.


NutKase

Tiros
10-10-2004, 03:07 PM
I clearly and publicly state and prove that I know very little about coding, either in assembler or C.

It's not Right and Left, it's:

Learn and do it yourself so you can support yourself - and - Do it for me then support me.

I've followed you attitude for a while and I hope this is the last time. I won't be responding again.
NutKase

NutJob,
What about help me get started and I'll support myself! (moderate)
I think that's what the original poster was trying to say.

Your brown nosing signature has bothered me for a while. Your "me too" post just pushed me over the edge. If it was not for browning, why did you do it?You seem to be helpful and are clearly working toward advancing your skills. I commend you. Augmenting your legitimate efforts with fanboy posts such as this diminishes your integrity/credibilty.

AlphaWolf
10-10-2004, 04:13 PM
NutJob,
What about help me get started and I'll support myself! (moderate)
I think that's what the original poster was trying to say.

Your brown nosing signature has bothered me for a while. Your "me too" post just pushed me over the edge. If it was not for browning, why did you do it?You seem to be helpful and are clearly working toward advancing your skills. I commend you. Augmenting your legitimate efforts with fanboy posts such as this diminishes your integrity/credibilty.

Are you suffering from ADHD or something?

NutKase
10-10-2004, 04:14 PM
Your brown nosing signature has bothered me for a while.
If it was not for browning, why did you do it?

I was in the middle of a sleeper yes/no discussion and decided to change it real time and was meant to broadcast my opinion on any hack-it-for me .iso (Sleeper just happens to be the one, I don't have a personal problem with him at all). No brownnosing intended. Sorry it bother's you but it's staying. I hope that no one uses sleeper again and asks for support. I also wish that it would unstick.


You seem to be helpful and are clearly working toward advancing your skills. I commend you.

Commend me by not screwing with my nick.


Augmenting your legitimate efforts with fanboy posts such as this diminishes your integrity/credibilty.

Don't know where you get fanboy, that's just your opinion, I simply totally agreed, with AlphaWolf, alldeadhomiez, JJBliss, cojonesdetoro, and psxboy... as a matter of fact, with everyone but you and the original poster.


NutKase

Tiros
10-10-2004, 05:01 PM
Are you suffering from ADHD or something?

What is ADHD?
All Dead Homiez Disorder? :)



Don't know where you get fanboy, that's just your opinion, I simply totally agreed, with AlphaWolf, alldeadhomiez, JJBliss, cojonesdetoro, and psxboy... as a matter of fact, with everyone but you and the original poster.

Your "me too" posting qualifies you for "Fanboy" status.
Just keep on "Totally Agreeing" and maybe you too can become a "MOD"!

This is not a new topic. It just keeps coming back. You don't have to search far to find the history here. If you think there are no others who agree with me you are not looking. Try searching for banned users and closed threads.

NutKase
10-10-2004, 05:07 PM
Your "me too" posting qualifies you for "Fanboy" status.

Only in your eyes.


This is not a new topic. It just keeps coming back. You don't have to search far to find the history here. If you think there are no others who agree with me you are not looking. Try searching for banned users and closed threads.

I've read all the closed threads you're talking about. I thought you were out to lunch then, just like I do now, I just didn't post.

Banned users, closed threads... hmm maybe you've got a trend going.


NutKase

alldeadhomiez
10-10-2004, 06:29 PM
Tiros:

You're obviously an intelligent guy. Why don't you use your abilities for something useful, instead of harassing members of the community who are trying to learn, share, and develop things?

tmorvant
10-10-2004, 11:53 PM
Didn't meant to start a war here, just wanted to vent/point out some frustrating issues. I am not totally new to hacking tivo's I hacked my first S1 almost 3 years ago, and hacked my 3 HDVR2's exactly 1 year ago (look at when I signed on this board), and the amount of information has increased by an order of magnitude. I realise documents get out of date, which is why it would be nice to have some soft of sourceforge repository or whatever that can track versions, and the community can update the content. My post was not meant to rip any of the members of this community, but more of a 'call to arms' to understand that it doesn't make sense to make everyone read the irrelevant stuff to learn. The guy that made the Textbook analogy couldn't be more wrong. This forum is hardly comparable to a textbook. I think a guide or document (whatever) could provide a lot of insight, such as a glossary to define the concepts and terms these posts refer to. That way people are truely learning. Sometimes I just get the impression that the true agenda of some people on here, is not to help people learn and contribute, but to make sure new people suffer as bad as they did when they first went through it. I know that Nutkase and Alldeadhomies came across this way in this post, however I don't believe that they truely are, as they have helped me greatly and without the typically requisite flames :)

Thanks, and keep da peaze

alldeadhomiez
10-11-2004, 01:13 AM
Sometimes I just get the impression that the true agenda of some people on here, is not to help people learn and contribute, but to make sure new people suffer as bad as they did when they first went through it. I know that Nutkase and Alldeadhomies came across this way in this post, however I don't believe that they truely are, as they have helped me greatly and without the typically requisite flames :)

Learning the ropes != suffering. I resent the all-too-common implication that bringing people up to speed should be viewed negatively. When you get a new job, you need to be trained. When you join the Army, you need to make it through boot camp. It's no different here. This board exists so that people can exchange useful information. It is not a charity or a public service. You get back what you put into it. If you don't have time or can't handle the subject matter, you drop out and take a semester of bowling instead. That's life.

BTW, if I wanted people to "suffer as badly as I did," I wouldn't have posted anything in the first place - no code, no advice, no help. DDB members have the right to share their knowledge, and to do so on their own terms. Either respect the wishes of the contributors, or don't use their work.

tmorvant
10-11-2004, 02:29 AM
BTW, if I wanted people to "suffer as badly as I did," I wouldn't have posted anything in the first place - no code, no advice, no help. DDB members have the right to share their knowledge, and to do so on their own terms. Either respect the wishes of the contributors, or don't use their work.

Umm...hello??

"I know that Nutkase and Alldeadhomies came across this way in this post, however I don't believe that they truely are, as they have helped me greatly and without the typically requisite flames"

Don't know how to be more clear than that...but whatever.

mrblack51
10-11-2004, 02:29 AM
What is ADHD?
Your "me too" posting qualifies you for "Fanboy" status.
Just keep on "Totally Agreeing" and maybe you too can become a "MOD"!

This is not a new topic. It just keeps coming back. You don't have to search far to find the history here. If you think there are no others who agree with me you are not looking. Try searching for banned users and closed threads.

and 90%+ of your posts to date qualify you as a troll. you are right that this isnt a new topic. you have spouted the same rhetoric over and again, and always with the same result.

i find it unfortunate that you attack a member of the community that is clearly trying to learn, and someone who has chosen to attempt to increase their knowledge in a technical area, and is happy to go about it in an open thread. do i have any direct contact with Nutkase? nope, but im sure you will start spinning a new conspiracy theory as soon as you read this.

do everyone a favor, stop participating in these sorts of threads. spend your time on useful endeavors like actual hacking, rather than dreaming up conspiracy theories and complaining about moderators.

mrblack51
10-11-2004, 02:36 AM
ADH,
I have tried to avoid going here again but you just never stop.
It's always the same rhetoric:
Boo Hoo Hoo
Sleeper stole the glory for all of our hacks.
We have to make sure nothing like this happens again! :mad:
Don't Sleeper! It's Deprecated!
Use my "new cooler" hack.
You need to get a new song.



The guy makes a legitimate point and is promptly attacked by the "Right".
This man is not a retard. Until Sleepers next release you can expect more of the same from new users. Likes it or not the Sleeper ISO is still usefull. It gets you Bash. Once you have bash, there is still plenty to learn.
There are of lot of people (professionals) who can write programs/scripts who do not know or care how to set up an OS. But hey let's run them out of town because they don't understand how to Monte. :confused:

wow, this couldnt be any farther from the truth. I, mrblack51, am solely responsible for the deprecation of the sleeper/tivoscripts iso. I added the deprecated note to the post, and I stand by my decision. the fact that you would rather assume some sort of conspiracy shows that you have nothing better to do...rather sad I would say.

clearly, you never even read any of the information regarding the deprecation, nor do you understand the term. by definition (in software terms), a deprecated tool is not marked as no longer useful, but it simply indicates that it has been eclipsed by better/simpler/more advanced/more efficient/etc methods. if anything, your lack of taking the time to read any of the information about it and the lack of getting the facts straight shows you are much more of a blind "fan boy" than most had thought.


Just give it a rest!

yes, it would be quite nice if you followed that advice.

Tiros
10-11-2004, 02:36 PM
and 90%+ of your posts to date qualify you as a troll. you are right that this isnt a new topic. you have spouted the same rhetoric over and again, and always with the same result.

i find it unfortunate that you attack a member of the community that is clearly trying to learn, and someone who has chosen to attempt to increase their knowledge in a technical area, and is happy to go about it in an open thread. do i have any direct contact with Nutkase? nope, but im sure you will start spinning a new conspiracy theory as soon as you read this.

do everyone a favor, stop participating in these sorts of threads. spend your time on useful endeavors like actual hacking, rather than dreaming up conspiracy theories and complaining about moderators.


I never said anything about conspiracies, I have let go of that.
I read all the depricated info and never argued.
I have been a good boy since my temp ban.
It wasn't unil ADH got on his soapbox spouting HIS "same rhetoric over and again" that I felt compelled to post. Actually I even bit my tounge on that one until NutKase's "me too" fanboy post. He wasn't "trying to learn". He was brown nosing. He deserved to be flamed.

You advise me to "stop participating in these sorts of threads. spend your time on useful endeavors like actual hacking"
Is that advice for me only? It sounds like "Do as I say not as I do". It sure seems like LOTS of people have time for trolling here.



Just give it a rest!

When I said this I was ready to. I guess NO one here has the self control to leave this alone.



yes, it would be quite nice if you followed that advice.

I'm willing to give it a shot if everyone else is :)

alldeadhomiez
10-11-2004, 03:05 PM
It wasn't unil ADH got on his soapbox spouting HIS "same rhetoric over and again" that I felt compelled to post.

Your post may well have been the most obvious straw man argument I've ever seen. And it wasn't a very good one either. Not only did you fail to rebut a single statement in my "soapbox rant"; you also failed to knock down the straw man.

I know you can do better than this.

mrblack51
10-11-2004, 05:30 PM
You advise me to "stop participating in these sorts of threads. spend your time on useful endeavors like actual hacking"
Is that advice for me only? It sounds like "Do as I say not as I do". It sure seems like LOTS of people have time for trolling here.
You're correct, that was my advise. no, it is not just for you. hopefully all members of this board follow suit.

moderators have the responsibility to control threads, handle problem users, etc. we happen to be lucky enough that all of the major moderators are also developers (the ones that mod the tivo section at least). as a user, your sole purpose is to provide useful information to others, gain knowledge, etc. it is the unfortunate job/duty to deal with these sorts of threads and such...you and others have no obligation to participate, and are encouraged not to participate.

are aol style "me too" posts what we want here? nope, but that doesnt mean that you need to come in and attempt to start something either. it is your choice to sink to the level of this thread, now i charge you (and all others) to rise above it and go back to actual hacking.


I'm willing to give it a shot if everyone else is :)

great. i look forward to not seeing any more posts from you in the future like the ones you have made in this thread. i hope that all others can follow suit.

tobyjoiner
10-12-2004, 12:13 AM
How could you not know the new method?

Pull Hard Drive
Put in Computer
Boot From Linux Boot Disk w/ new hack (Sorry cant remember name) on it
Run new hack
Pull Hard Drive from Computer
Put back in Tivo
Boot Up
Add Hacks

I know this isn't the complete thing, but compared to the old methods, this is simple.

toby

tmorvant
10-12-2004, 12:44 AM
Gonna take the advise, and let that one go... see...it is possible for me to learn...