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snowman
10-22-2004, 04:42 PM
Sleeper's ISO is what I used and as far as I can tell, it's working just fine. My original goal was to go from 40 to 80 gigs. I've done that. Unfortunately, I now have a nasty case of the "I wants". I want FTP access, I want to copy the recorded shows over to my PC and burn to DVD and have something I can actually play. I want to do this via wireless networking.

It would seem that the one thing agreed on by most everyone is that the Sleeper ISO is outdated. I wasn't here when Sleeper made his famous departure, but he obviously took the time to create the ISO so people like me could hack our Tivos.

I'm surprised someone hasn't "stepped up" and taken over the task of continually updating with newer versions, etc. I'm asking if someone would, PLEASE????

I don't care what you call it, but having everything in one place sure would be nice. I know I need to learn Linux (or at least parts of it), but having to recompile kernals and compiling drivers and all that jazz just is beyond my scope of knowledge.

Of course, I'm hoping someone comes along with a "how-to" on hopping up the processor. Compared to Dish's PVR unit, DirecTivo is slow. Yes, it has more features and doesn't appear to need a reboot every few days, etc, but viewing the channel guide is absurdly slow.

alldeadhomiez
10-22-2004, 05:04 PM
It would seem that the one thing agreed on by most everyone is that the Sleeper ISO is outdated. I wasn't here when Sleeper made his famous departure, but he obviously took the time to create the ISO so people like me could hack our Tivos.

After the Sleeper debacle, many developers have specifically requested that their contributions not be included in any tool like TivoScripts.

I agree with this sentiment and ask that nothing I have worked on or discovered be distributed in this way. When possible, I (like others) will license and copyright my work so that it is not legal to redistribute.


I don't care what you call it, but having everything in one place sure would be nice. I know I need to learn Linux (or at least parts of it), but having to recompile kernals and compiling drivers and all that jazz just is beyond my scope of knowledge.

If you can't find precompiled binaries for the things you need, you've either got very unusual needs or you are not looking hard enough.

The software found on this board are hacks. They are not designed to be used in the absence of documentation or background material. They are frequently updated. And they are not designed or intended for "end users" looking to download a finished product.

BTW, drive expansion existed a looooong time before Sleeper. There are better ways to do that.

snowman
10-22-2004, 05:39 PM
Let's be fair here. The reason people write scripts and such is so others can/will use them. An installer-type system allows everyone to use the product. In THEORY, having Sleeper's ISO and a hardware firewall, you've got everything you need in one nice, neat little package.

I do think Sleeper could have gone a little further with his project and allowed you to select which hacks/mods you wanted (with explanations as to what they were).

I understand that Sleeper didn't invent upgrading size in hard drives. While there may be "better" ways, I don't know of an easier one.

If Tivo used an MS-DOS based system, I'd be all over it. But trying to learn Linux (and trying to determine which kernel does what) AND trying to learn Cisco's IOS, well it's a little daunting.

As long as the programmer is given credit where due for his/her works, I don't see why packaging is such an issue.

However, I appreciate your feedback and your feelings on the matter.

AlphaWolf
10-22-2004, 05:45 PM
Let's be fair here. The reason people write scripts and such is so others can/will use them.

Not really. Most just write stuff like that for their own uses, then just post their stuff so that if somebody else is inclined they can follow in the same footsteps without reinventing the wheel. I can only think of like three people here that are only out to be heroes and write something with the sole purpose of fame and glory.

alldeadhomiez
10-22-2004, 06:14 PM
Let's be fair here. The reason people write scripts and such is so others can/will use them. An installer-type system allows everyone to use the product.

For whatever reason you are under the impression that this is a good thing. To most of us, it is not.

Although my motivation is almost always curiosity or "scratching an itch," I am usually willing to share my work with a few groups of people:

- acquaintances / friends / family
- developers who are working on things that provide some benefit for me
- people who are curious as to how something was done
- some reasonable number of users who find it posted here and would like to use it for themselves

I am generally not willing to share my work under the following conditions:

- it is being sold for profit by somebody other than myself, without permission
- it is being distributed en masse to end-users who don't care about how it works and don't know (or care) who made it
- it is being used for a purpose which upsets the fragile relationship we have with the corporations that produce our toys

Thus we can craft the following guidelines:

- limit the scope of the program's distribution
- keep it relative discreet or archaic (not end-user-ready)
- respect all authors' wishes
- contribute back to the community

A quick glance through the Sewer will show you that the people who most vehemently oppose these sorts of guidelines are often the ones who have contributed little or nothing new to the community. This is not a coincidence.

TooMuchTV
10-22-2004, 07:36 PM
- it is being used for a purpose which upsets the fragile relationship we have with the corporations that produce our toys


That is a really good point. If it is too easy and everyone is doing it, they may get pissed and do something to stop it.

malfunct
10-22-2004, 07:49 PM
Not really. Most just write stuff like that for their own uses, then just post their stuff so that if somebody else is inclined they can follow in the same footsteps without reinventing the wheel. I can only think of like three people here that are only out to be heroes and write something with the sole purpose of fame and glory.

Agreed, the only reason I'd make a scripted installer is to repeatedly hack my own machines and its doubtful I'd release it to the community (for many reasons already mentioned as well as the fact I'd know it would be flawed and wouldn't want to deal with explaining the flaws and how to get around them). Of course my participation in this community thus far has been to answer obvious questions and read the forums for my entertainment so all the comments that go along with that apply to me.

rc3105
10-22-2004, 08:03 PM
That is a really good point. If it is too easy and everyone is doing it, they may get pissed and do something to stop it.
boy howdy!

tivo could SERIOUSLY mess us up via nightly or sat downloads, not to mention it's a legal minefield & nobody's got the $ to fight hollywood

snowman
10-22-2004, 08:07 PM
Tivo at least talks about networking rather than DirecTv's stance that the USB ports can't work.

alldeadhomiez
10-22-2004, 08:14 PM
That is a really good point. If it is too easy and everyone is doing it, they may get pissed and do something to stop it.

Yep, like updating the new units to lock out the exploitable kernel.

Or pre-emptively auditing the PROM code and adding a new TCD1 security header.

Or having their lawyers send out nasty letters (at least three times in the past year, that I am aware of, probably many more in reality).

But that's nothing, compared to the nasty things they could do.

TiVo has never minded seeing a few dedicated individuals in "some corner of the internet" taking things apart and playing around. What they clearly dislike is seeing their product advertised for extraction or service theft purposes, and seeing software that purports to offer these capabilities to the average joe on the street.

We are not on a mission to bring extraction and networking to every single TiVo user. We simply enjoy taking things apart and adding new functionality. Anybody who chooses to embark on this populist, "everybody deserves a hack" crusade is welcome to do so on his own turf, with his own resources and code, and backed by his own legal budget.


Agreed, the only reason I'd make a scripted installer is to repeatedly hack my own machines and its doubtful I'd release it to the community (for many reasons already mentioned as well as the fact I'd know it would be flawed and wouldn't want to deal with explaining the flaws and how to get around them).

One of the main differences between a hero and a hobbyist is that the hobbyist is willing to admit that his project isn't perfect for everyone. The hero will lie, cheat, and steal to build his fan base.

snowman
10-22-2004, 08:40 PM
Those that want things "given" to them are the ones that don't "give back". I run a fishing site, so I understand where you're coming from. However, the newbies of today are the support structure of tomorrow. Granted, not ALL of us are, but with VERY rare exception, one must follow if he is to ever lead. In that light, I have NOTHING technical I can add yet (though I did add a "deal").

Having said that, one of the absolute WORST sites I've ever found is sourceforge.net. Man, there's SO much information there, but you had better know what you're looking for and what to do with it when you find it. It is, to me, the epitome of why Linux hasn't become more mainstream. The hardware vendors seem to mostly thumb their noses up at the Linux community by not providing drivers for Linux.

That Weaknees guy seems to be the best mix I've found. He'll tell you how to do it for free or do the work for you for a fee if you just don't want to do the work. The purists may not like him because of it -- I don't know, don't really care.

So, this seems to have been put to bed. Sleeper's ISO, while still available for download, will not be updated if the purists have their way. So, I've gone back into newbieland and asked what I have to go back and update to current versions and what bugs I need to look out for.

alldeadhomiez
10-22-2004, 08:58 PM
Sleeper's ISO, while still available for download, will not be updated if the purists have their way.

s/purists/contributors/

Our community believes that the author/developer of a hack gets to set the terms on which that hack will be used. This is for the simple reason that people share more stuff when their wishes are respected. When they get pissed off, they leave, and everybody loses.

It all boils down to respect. Here at DDB we respect the people who make our hobby possible, period.


So, I've gone back into newbieland and asked what I have to go back and update to current versions and what bugs I need to look out for.

No need - just read the Sleeper ISO thread in the Series2 Support forum. Everything you need to know is in there.

rc3105
10-22-2004, 08:59 PM
sourceforge is great, it's like a fully stocked machine shop. if you know what you're doing the sky's the limit

*hint: google can limit it's search to a particular site


sleeper's iso isn't actually hosted here on dd, there's nothing stopping him from fixing it except maybe a case of cartmanitis ( "screw you guys, I'm going home" )

geminicat
10-22-2004, 11:04 PM
sleeper's iso isn't actually hosted here on dd, there's nothing stopping him from fixing it except maybe a case of cartmanitis

Which reminds me 6 straight hours of South Park this evening. And tomorrow as well. :

Starting this Friday, Oct. 22nd, we'll be showing the 27 Greatest South Park Episodes that you chose. Tune in all weekend starting at 9p / 8c, and count 'em down with us, capping off with South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut with a trailer for Team America: World Police

All I can say is way cool !!!!!

CroW
10-25-2004, 12:57 PM
I realize this is a bit off topic but I'm curious.. Sleeper obviously contributed to these forums in more ways than one.. What was he banned for? Idle curiosity..

rc3105
10-25-2004, 01:11 PM
lotta reasons. search for his posts if you want to see the public ones

---

what's kinda interesting is that it would take all of about 2 minutes to fix the iso. wouldn't be the end-all solution everybody wants, but at least it wouldn't damage anything


kinda suprising none of his fanboys has stepped up. could fix it & post a link in less time than just 1 of the flame festivals has wasted

snowman
10-25-2004, 02:41 PM
As I understand it, he made threats toward one or more moderators.

HOWEVER (I wasn't here at the time), I suspect the release of TivoScripts ticked off many people because he gathered information and put it all together and redistributed it. I cannot understand why, since once something is released into the public domain (not GNU license or any of that stuff, but honestly posted publicly/released publicly), it's there for the getting.

I wonder if Sleeper had merely created a step-by-step document with links on the various programs needed, would there have been such an issue? The fact that Hinsdale did just that but centered solely around one program, and hasn't been blasted (that I've seen) for doing so, makes me believe that it was the redistribution of the included programs that caused the problem.

I wish I knew how to contact Sleeper as I'd like to talk with him and thank him for the work he did. It created an EXCELLENT place to start and without his efforts, I would currently not have a Dtivo unit that I can access via the network.

rc3105
10-25-2004, 03:34 PM
the iso included broken versions of many utilities

the iso included utilities w/o permission (a courtesy email for gpl stuff would have been apropriate, didn't happen)

the iso was indirectly responsible for a SLEW of ebay upgrade cd's


folks posting guides which produce a config that screwed up generally get flamed - the blind thinking they can lead the blind make extra work for us mods and clutter the forum

his install scripts at least explained what was being done & so he got a lot more slack than most people would've


failure to fix known problems, trolling, threatening mods and just basically annoying the hell out of those with the edit button got him booted

alldeadhomiez
10-25-2004, 03:37 PM
HOWEVER (I wasn't here at the time), I suspect the release of TivoScripts ticked off many people because he gathered information and put it all together and redistributed it. I cannot understand why, since once something is released into the public domain (not GNU license or any of that stuff, but honestly posted publicly/released publicly), it's there for the getting.

If you ever develop anything of your own, you'll understand why people don't like to see their work stolen and misused without permission, regardless of license. It's a simple matter of respect for the people who have shared their efforts with you.

Speaking of which, if anyone takes Riley up on his challenge, please don't use anything I've posted in your release. Also, please remove anything I have authored or worked on from the image. (That shouldn't be too difficult because most of the software in question, like kmem and the old 2.4.4 USB drivers, is outdated.)

snowman
10-25-2004, 03:50 PM
Alldeadhomiez, please explain how things were stolen or misused. Don't read anything negative into that, it's truly a request for how you feel things were stolen or misused. I ASSUME that Sleeper did not sell his image, but offered it for free. Are you blaming Sleeper because of how his image was used (for profit by Ebayers) or is it something else?

What I find exceptionally ironic about not just this thread, but the undercurrents surrounding "why sleeper shouldn't have created it", is the google adsense ads trying to sell us modd'ed Tivo units.

Why does Hinsdale get a "free pass" for his "how to"? Was it because it only deals with mfstools and the owner of mfstools either gave permission or didn't care? Is it because he didn't include other utils?

Why does Alphawolf get a free pass for his bundling of all s2 utils together?

There is a line that many feel was crossed but I'm trying to determine WHAT the line is.

rc3105
10-25-2004, 03:53 PM
oy... I just think it's funny that none of his fanboys are willing/capable

some of the ebay sleaze have allready fixed the problems, might even be worth the $5/$10 if they sold it as a basic utility installer & weren't trying to cash in by including other utils & svc theft hacks

alldeadhomiez
10-25-2004, 04:06 PM
Alldeadhomiez, please explain how things were stolen or misused.

Numerous hacks and programs were reproduced without permission, and used for purposes with which the developers did not agree. As you were not one of those developers, your opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

You will respect the wishes of the people who have graciously shared their work with the community. End of discussion.

Edit: moved to Sewer and re-opened.

snowman
10-25-2004, 04:44 PM
Hang on man.. I'm ASKING in an attempt to understand. I'm not taking sides in this, I'm trying to understand. As a non-developer, putting a list of hacks together and making it publicly available when already publicly available in pieces seems like a good thing. I'd think I had actually done something useful for the community.

Again, can you compare Sleeper's ISO to the work of both Hinsdale and Alphawolf and what makes Hinsdale and Alphawolf's work "good" and Sleeper's "bad". Is it the WHO that made it bad, is it the automated install that made it bad, or what? Or would Alphawolf's s2 all in one collection have the exact same problem except that Alphawolf did something differently (such as asking the developers' permission).

Let's say you wrote some new program/hack and it was not "user friendly" or "intuitive" or "easy to figure out" (however you wish to phrase it), and I came along and wrote extensive instructions on how to load and/or use it. Would I be violating some sort of unwritten "rule"?

This goes back to the old BBS days of file leaches where you could only download so many things for every one you uploaded, to keep people from being only "takers". It's engrained in my character that you always "give back". There is absolutely no way I can give back in the form of a program for others to use. So, to give back, I try to answer questions, help others with support questions so those who write the programs can do so. To me, Sleeper, Hinsdale, and AlphaWolf all did that... gave back but not by creating something new, but by repackaging and/or creating instructions on use. Sleeper (as best I can tell) is the only one of the three that wasn't appreciated for doing so. He did something differently, crossed a line. 6 months from now, I feasibly might have done the same thing with the right intentions. To keep me and others from crossing the line, I am asking what the line is. There's more to this story than I know, and I'm taking Sleeper's ISO completely at face value and as a single work. There's obviously a lot about that "tool" that has bothered many, and I want to understand how to avoid the same ire.

snowman
10-25-2004, 05:03 PM
the iso included broken versions of many utilities

the iso included utilities w/o permission (a courtesy email for gpl stuff would have been apropriate, didn't happen)

the iso was indirectly responsible for a SLEW of ebay upgrade cd's

failure to fix known problems, trolling, threatening mods and just basically annoying the hell out of those with the edit button got him booted

Okay, I feel as though I'm getting conflicting information. "Failure to fix known problems" is mentioned. Are you saying that if someone DID "take over" the project and bring it up-to-date, that it would be okay? I get the unshakable feeling that Alldeadhomiez would frown HARD on the poor soul that did so.

So, if someone were to start over and script the backup/restore and enlargement of a new drive using mfstools2.0, add networking support, do the kernel mods, toss in a few misc utils such as ftp, telnet, tivowebplus, tserver, and instructions on using those tools as well as their desktop counterparts, would that be okay? I realize the kernel mods is copyrighted, not for redist, all that stuff, so this is only a educational discussion. Or, do I need to contact the people who made mfstools 2.0 (as well as Hinsdale for his how-to doc), whomever I can for the home-grown drivers, and the utils mentioned above, and ask their permission before releasing the script, would THAT be okay? I'm looking for what would make everyone happy.

Do I just create this big long document that says step 1, step 2, step 3 (link to software), step 4 (link), etc and does THAT make it okay?

Or, is it just that not seeing up front that such scripts/instructions would make it easy for others to proliferate Ebay to make a profit off the work of others, that makes it a no-no regardless?

malfunct
10-25-2004, 05:13 PM
I think it comes down to two big issues on the side of not having automatic installation of hacks and I'll list them in no particular order:

1) The hacks quickly fall out of date and flaws are not fixed so you have an endless support problem from people that don't know how to fix any issues on thier own.

2) The profiteering and HUGE influx of people using hacked tivos both slaps the original developers in the face and brings down the wrath of tivo (and DirecTV) upon the hobbiest community.

Neither of these things has anything to do with supporting the hobbiest community that this forum wants to foster and so it recieves little support from the core.

On the other side of the coin it would be nice to have an easy way to repeatedly and correctly hack your tivo. The new killhdinitrd happens to be easy enough that automated hack scripts probably aren't necessary.

So all said I am on the side of not having a widespread automated hack script and wouldn't support someone tring to attempt one.

rc3105
10-25-2004, 05:35 PM
know where every util that's included came from and make sure it works


RESPECT THE WISHES OF THE ORIGINAL DEVELOPER(S)
how would you feel if you spent a month developing "TiVo 101" and some yutz started ebaying copies for $20?


READ the licenses. just because there wasn't one with the program when you found it doesn't mean it's nonexistant. a program posted w/o a license isn't automatically in the public domain. copyright applies unless specifically waived (that pesky legal system)

*there are ebay sleaze distributing my sw they got in an emule image, WOW are they suprised when I file a NOCI & ebay cancels their account


UNDERSTAND what you're doing. Alphawolf's busybox build & standard *nix utils are all pretty much freely avail under the gpl, the tivo specific scripts he wrote sure aren't

--

tivo decided they really didn't want folks downloading images with all the hacks installed or that allowed for downgrades to avoid subscription fees. last fall they took legal action & shut down all the web / ftp sites hosting backups

all in one upgrade iso's sorta negate that

anyone watching will notice that tivo just began encrypting 3.x sw updates - it became too easy so tivo responded to make things harder


we know tivo is going to have to react, it's a minor miracle killhdinitrd ever saw the light of day

--

not fixing known problems in a widely used tool is a recurring slap in the face to the folks that have to deal with all the noob questions / problems

alldeadhomiez
10-25-2004, 05:36 PM
Again, can you compare Sleeper's ISO to the work of both Hinsdale and Alphawolf and what makes Hinsdale and Alphawolf's work "good" and Sleeper's "bad". Is it the WHO that made it bad, is it the automated install that made it bad, or what? Or would Alphawolf's s2 all in one collection have the exact same problem except that Alphawolf did something differently (such as asking the developers' permission).

Three rules of thumb that will save you a lot of trouble are:

- ask permission before you include somebody else's work
- avoid "mass appeal" and focus on people who are interested in learning and understanding how things work
- don't try to be a hero

AlphaWolf
10-25-2004, 06:13 PM
Why does Alphawolf get a free pass for his bundling of all s2 utils together?

Actually wrt to the all in one stuff, aside from the stuff that has already been declared GPL there is only one thing that wasn't written by me, which is tivoftpd, and the author has already declared that freeware. (btw I have actually found something else based on BSD code which I intend to replace that with somewhen)

Since I own everything in it that isn't freeware or GPL, I am allowed to distribute it how I see fit, therefore I gave myself the free pass.

JJBliss
10-25-2004, 07:36 PM
snowman et al

Here's the bottom line:

In an effort to maintain a robust developer community on dealdatabase the moderators and I need to take a pretty hard line on certain things. We have already laid out a number of "rules" and/or "guidelines" that keep dealdatabase a safe, free, and desirable place to discuss and modify Tivos.

At the highest level they are

Don't discuss service theft hacks
Don't threaten or harrass other members
The word of the moderators and administrators is final

All of these are subject to warnings and then eventual banishment.

It is becoming more and more apparent that an additional one is necessary.

The wishes of individual developers is dealdatabase LAW

If a member of this community violates the published/posted wishes of any developer as it pertains to his/her own software, that violator is required to modify or remediate the problem. If not, they will be warned by a moderator or administrator. Failure to comply will result in punitive action.

Sound about right?

That should avoid most, if not all of the complaints and issues surrounding heroware, unapproved external hosting of software and all-in-one releases. In addition, it can be infered that any such banished member cannot expect his software-in-violation to be supported or accepted by dealdatabase members. In fact, it may come to pass that any software in violation of this new rule, or discussion of any such software may be summarily deleted with no additional notification to avoid any anecdotal support nightmares as we've seen in the past

Any of the moderators feel like adding anything?

rc3105
10-25-2004, 07:45 PM
Any of the moderators feel like adding anything?
damn, why didn't I think of that :p

tytyty
10-25-2004, 10:07 PM
Looks like the end of user input.

Great work.

JJBliss
10-25-2004, 10:08 PM
Looks like the end of user input.

Great work.
Nope. Looks like the end of user leeches.

Nothing else changes.

khig
10-25-2004, 10:13 PM
Dude......how thick can you be? :eek:

It's pretty simple really.

Sleeper took material written by others, without their permission, included it in an ISO without any recogition of who wrote it and called it Tivoscript. It became widely known as Sleeper's ISO when Sleeper had absolutely nothing to do with creating the hacks/programs.

It's called plagiarism .

There......thats my $.02 flushed down the sewer!



Teacher, why did you give me an 'F' on my term paper, I copied it word for word right out of that book?

tytyty
10-25-2004, 10:13 PM
Nope. Looks like the end of user leeches.

Nothing else changes.
Nice now you have called the users "leeches"



Don't threaten or harrass other members

This has been enforced sporatically and based on mods whims


The wishes of individual developers is dealdatabase LAW


Bow down to the GODS

tytyty
10-25-2004, 10:18 PM
Dude......how thick can you be? :eek:

It's pretty simple really.

Sleeper took material written by others, without their permission, included it in an ISO without any recogition of who wrote it and called it Tivoscript. It became widely known as Sleeper's ISO when Sleeper had absolutely nothing to do with creating the hacks/programs.

It's called plagiarism .



And he removed them as requested

i.e. TivoScripts 1.02

This is what you get when software is not "open"

ingeneer led the way by showing us how to use open software to monte.

Olaf gave us TyStudio

where are they and the others today?

Think about it.

edit by mrb: fixed broken quotes

JJBliss
10-25-2004, 10:21 PM
Nice now you have called the users "leeches"
Some users are leeches. I'm saying goodbye to them.



Don't threaten or harrass other members


This has been enforced sporatically and based on mods whims

Did you forget rule number 3?



The wishes of individual developers is dealdatabase LAW


Bow down to the GODS
Without them, you'd have nothing! You owe all your TiVo hacking to them. You should be more contrite when dealing with those who are superior to you in this arena.

If you don't like the rules of this forum, you're free to leave.

JJBliss
10-25-2004, 10:23 PM
And he removed them as requested

i.e. TivoScripts 1.02

Incorrect.


This is what you get when software is not "open"

Incorrect


ingeneer led the way by showing us how to use open software to monte.

Incorrect.


Olaf gave us TyStudio

where are they and the others today?

Think about it.
They grew bored with people who didn't appreciate them and left you all to wallow in your own uselessness.

khig
10-25-2004, 10:32 PM
And he removed them as requested

i.e. TivoScripts 1.02

This is what you get when software is not "open"

ingeneer led the way by showing us how to use open software to monte.

Olaf gave us TyStudio

where are they and the others today?

Think about it.


Yea, what JJBliss said.

Now I am a noob here so I'll ask my question in the sewer to JJBliss.

JJBliss, would tytyty be defined as a 'Fanboy'? :eek:

tytyty
10-25-2004, 10:37 PM
And he removed them as requested

i.e. TivoScripts 1.02

This is what you get when software is not "open"

ingeneer led the way by showing us how to use open software to monte.

Olaf gave us TyStudio

where are they and the others today?

Think about it.


Yea, what JJBliss said.

Now I am a noob here so I'll ask my question in the sewer to JJBliss.

JJBliss, would tytyty be defined as a 'Fanboy'? :eek:


Ahh does the illusive



Don't threaten or harrass other members


Apply here?

I wont even comment on the broken formating....

JJBliss
10-25-2004, 10:38 PM
JJBliss, would tytyty be defined as a 'Fanboy'? :eek:

I personally don't think so. However, I do think he's worried that his use of our free software will be somewhat restricted.

Boo freakin' hoo.

Welcome to America.

alldeadhomiez
10-25-2004, 10:40 PM
ingeneer led the way by showing us how to use open software to monte.

Thanks for proving our point.

Ingineer did not discover the BASH_ENV exploit. Tiger did - back in the days of the Series1 DTV boxes, before the PROM hack was public.

Ingineer had nothing to do with monte. (Do you even know what monte is? Compare the dates on Ingineer's post and on MN's monte release.)

Ingineer merely wrote, you guessed it... a guide, compiled from various posts on TCF, which demonstrated how to use the BASH_ENV exploit.

But we're not here to take Ingineer to task for something he posted with good intentions, two years ago. We're just asking that references and credits be propagated, and that the original authors' intentions are respected. Really, is it that hard for you to stomach a little common courtesy?

If you want to see "open" software return (as I do), you are going to need to become a lot more respectful of the authors' wishes. Defending the illicit repackaging and redistribution of software against the developers' will is absolutely not an effective strategy for getting people to share code.

And since sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about, JJBliss' strategy makes perfect sense: we will not bite the hands that feed us.

snowman
10-25-2004, 10:43 PM
Dude......how thick can you be? :eek:

It's pretty simple really.

Sleeper took material written by others, without their permission, included it in an ISO without any recogition of who wrote it and called it Tivoscript. It became widely known as Sleeper's ISO when Sleeper had absolutely nothing to do with creating the hacks/programs.

It's called plagiarism .

There......thats my $.02 flushed down the sewer!



Teacher, why did you give me an 'F' on my term paper, I copied it word for word right out of that book?

Khig, I'm not being "thick". I'm trying to learn from another's mistakes. I didn't know exactly what the underlying issue was. Items such as tivoftpd and tytools seem to have been publicly released here. To me, those are two tools everyone would want. So, if I were to try to take my experiences and pass them on to others, I'd surely expect they'd want those utils and therefore would include them. I probably wouldn't have even considered that anyone would get upset because I was only putting publicly available files into an install script. I wasn't here when everything went on, so I'm wanting to make sure that I fully understand WHY there was even an issue. I now understand.

However, I must say that I don't agree that Sleeper "stole" credit. He created a bootable CD image that would copy a virgin drive to a larger one, install lots of cool hacks and utilities. I fear that it being called "Sleeper's ISO" rather than TivoScripts as the reference point further angered the people who created the utils. Again, only conjecture on my point since I wasn't here, but it seems logical.

However, you must understand a person's desire to help others by documenting their own process and maybe even script it. At work, I make batch files for anything I possibly can. If I can upgrade to a service pack by creating an "AT" job, by golly I'll do it. As such, if I keep blowing my Tivo up too often, I'm liable to script an easy way to rebuild it. If it works well, I'd surely want to share it. Without understanding WHAT Sleeper did to make such a nice big hole in which to dive, others conceivably could dig the same sized hole.

JJ pretty much summed it all up for me, and I appreciate that. However, your comments calling me thick for asking the question just made me feel compelled to respond. Please understand I don't know Sleeper, know absolutely nothing of him short of what I've read here, and I am NOT waving his flag. I am grateful that he created TivoScripts (the SCRIPTS to install the utils and hacks). There is very little "new" knowledge in the world these days (generally speaking), but a whole lot of gathering existing knowledge and repackaging it. That's all any educational book is anyway... a repackaging of others' work. With only a few exceptions, the originator of the thought never gets credit. Pythagorus got his theorum, and Pasteur got his pasteurization process, but by in large, giving credit where credit is due just isn't that common.

I was NOT one whose "works" had been re-used by Sleeper, so it was hard for me to get a handle around the underlying issue. It was conceivable by the waves he's made here that TivoScripts by Harold would have gone over MUCH better than TivoScripts by Sleeper. Sometimes it IS the messanger and not the message and that's what I was trying to sort out.

However, I can be thick-headed and fully admit to that. I just don't want to be labeled a trouble-maker for asking a question that truly was a question seeking a legitimate answer.

My best to you....

tytyty
10-25-2004, 10:52 PM
Ingineer did not discover the BASH_ENV exploit. Tiger did - back in the days of the Series1 DTV boxes, before the PROM hack was public.

Ingineer had nothing to do with monte. (Do you even know what monte is? Compare the dates on Ingineer's post and on MN's monte release.)

Ingineer merely wrote, you guessed it... a guide, compiled from various posts on TCF, which demonstrated how to use the BASH_ENV exploit.


Correct and I apologize to Tiger


But we're not here to take Ingineer to task for something he posted with good intentions, two years ago.

Mighty generous



We're just asking that references and credits be propagated, and that the original authors' intentions are respected. Really, is it that hard for you to stomach a little common courtesy?


As is required in GPL sw unless you are M$


If you want to see "open" software return (as I do), you are going to need to become a lot more respectful of the authors' wishes. Defending the illicit repackaging and redistribution of software against the developers' will is absolutely not an effective strategy for getting people to share code.


And never defended Sleeper for the stuff in Tivoscripts 1.01 he made attempt in 1.02 and was still vilified. (all I liked was the ask question and show required commands teaching it gave the non-linux users)




And since sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about, JJBliss' strategy makes perfect sense: we will not bite the hands that feed us.

Sorry I disagree as a developer/mod I cannot say why to you for fear that you could envoke either Rule 3 or 4

JJBliss
10-25-2004, 10:56 PM
Sorry I disagree as a developer/mod I cannot say why to you for fear that you could envoke either Rule 3 or 4

Actually, as a mod he could invoke Rule 3, but since anything you say has nothing to do with violating his wishes regarding his personally released software, he cannot invoke Rule 4. And even if he did invoke Rule 4, you would have plenty of time to remediate it should you choose to.

snowman
10-25-2004, 10:59 PM
My apologies to anyone who's gotten this far... this thread has turned UGLY, which was NOT my intention.

tytyty
10-25-2004, 11:00 PM
Actually, as a mod he could invoke Rule 3, but since anything you say has nothing to do with violating his wishes regarding his personally released software, he cannot invoke Rule 4. And even if he did invoke Rule 4, you would have plenty of time to remediate it should you choose to.
That is the exact reason I spoke out regarding the new rule a mod/developer can make different claims (not that they ever would) against a user.

I'm still not a leech btw...

JJBliss
10-25-2004, 11:02 PM
I'm still not a leech btw...
Never said YOU were.

Read, don't infer.

khig
10-25-2004, 11:06 PM
snowman....

I didnt use the word thick as an insult but as merely an adjective. As it seemed to me, the answer to your questions were in the prior posts but you still where asking.

I didnt say Sleeper stole anything. What he did do was not give credit where credit is due amoung other things.

I dont think you are being a trouble-maker, he's a few posts up.

alldeadhomiez
10-25-2004, 11:07 PM
However, I must say that I don't agree that Sleeper "stole" credit. He created a bootable CD image that would copy a virgin drive to a larger one, install lots of cool hacks and utilities.

And those "cool hacks and utilities" came from where? The ether?

How about the drive expansion tool? That wasn't original, either. In fact, pretty much everything of substance on the CD came from a few people from here and from TCF. And the scripts, while potentially somewhat tedious to write, were no better than any of the versions that existed in private. (It's worth mentioning that most of the private scripts were equally unsuitable for the purpose that TivoScripts was advertised for, which helps explain why the authors chose not to post them.)


It was conceivable by the waves he's made here that TivoScripts by Harold would have gone over MUCH better than TivoScripts by Sleeper. Sometimes it IS the messanger and not the message and that's what I was trying to sort out.

Sometimes it's both. But you're not going to goad us into bashing Sleeper, the person, when he is not here to defend himself.

Go ahead and take a look at this post (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=175050&postcount=1648), and think about some of the reasons why his approach might have alienated people. Read between the lines: "I'm going to keep redistributing your code, whether you like it or not, because I think you are wrong." It's easy to get fed up with somebody who acts so unilaterally, mocking and ignoring the wishes of the people who make his work possible.


Sorry I disagree as a developer/mod I cannot say why to you for fear that you could envoke either Rule 3 or 4

So, what is the purpose of this forum, in your view?

rc3105
10-25-2004, 11:28 PM
I'm still not a leech btw...
that's true, you've contributed an immense number of worthless posts

guess that makes you more of a troll

Vadim has decreed no bashing (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140435&postcount=1), and while while your constant whining doesn't technically qualify it's equally disruptive

If you don't like the rules of this forum, you're free to leave.
so, do you want to shape up or ship out?

Tiros
10-26-2004, 11:24 AM
Original developers get bored and leave. Once the main "nut" has been cracked the rest is really only crumbs.



Without them, you'd have nothing

Is a delusion of grandeur.

Plenty of people are capable of figuring out how to compromise these units. It's true that the current crop of "developers/gods" here know more about the unit than anyone else.
The problem is they want to keep it that way!
The cat is out of the bag, there are now loads of tools and documents for technically savvy people to recreate anything done here. New people don't have to go through the same steep learning curve that the original developers did. The fact is that it now only takes a fraction of the time to come up to speed on this stuff as it used to. That pisses some people off too. Look at Jamies work. A member less than 2 months and he fixes the USB problem that has been dogging people since Day1 w/Series2. Yeah, ADH jumped in to help (after Jamies initial sucess). Is this to say without him Jamie would not have suceeded? I don't think so.

Go ahead and keep all your little "hacks" private. If there is sufficient demand, someone will make a public version. If not, no one cares anyway. If you think your the only one capable, your kidding yourself. When there is enough motivation, ie:some show stopping problem, that needs to be solved, the hacking community will attack it with or without help from any elitists here.

snowman
10-26-2004, 12:03 PM
And those "cool hacks and utilities" came from where? The ether?

Absolutely not. They were written by someone. That's all completely understood. As an IT person, but not a Linux person, I fully understand that Sleeper released a scripted install/upgrade that included lots of other stuff in there that obviously wasn't his original "intellectual property". But let's stop for just a moment and ask the (what I feel to be) important question... WHAT could Sleeper do/have done that would have made everyone happy AND still release TivoScripts? An opening screen that listed each program installed and the author?



How about the drive expansion tool? That wasn't original, either. In fact, pretty much everything of substance on the CD came from a few people from here and from TCF. And the scripts, while potentially somewhat tedious to write, were no better than any of the versions that existed in private. (It's worth mentioning that most of the private scripts were equally unsuitable for the purpose that TivoScripts was advertised for, which helps explain why the authors chose not to post them.)


I view TivoScripts as "I found everything I could find that was out there and scripted the install process to put the tools/hacks/utils that I find most useful all in one package". TivoScripts did take a lot of work. And it does what it's advertised to do (at least for me).


Sometimes it's both. But you're not going to goad us into bashing Sleeper, the person, when he is not here to defend himself.

Now that's not fair at all to me. I didn't suggest that anyone start bashing Sleeper. I asked what he did wrong and am asking how a person could do something similar without doing it "wrong". I'm asking about the procedural issues. It's OBVIOUS that Sleeper has a group here that doesn't care for him, hence the question of message vs messenger. John Kerry could come up with the greatest plan ever to reduce taxes, but since I'm a FIRM Republican, I'd dismiss his ideas just as I dismiss the person. That's what I'm getting at. If someone else had done the same thing, in a modified way, would it pass the muster, or is it the "ease of use" that simply made it an unacceptable project from the beginning?



Go ahead and take a look at this post (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=175050&postcount=1648), and think about some of the reasons why his approach might have alienated people. Read between the lines: "I'm going to keep redistributing your code, whether you like it or not, because I think you are wrong." It's easy to get fed up with somebody who acts so unilaterally, mocking and ignoring the wishes of the people who make his work possible.

To quote JJ above... read don't infer. I read that post and all I saw was "some people don't like the fact that I've released the scripts, but tough, I'm going to keep updating my scripts and try to simplify the process of updating your Tivo". Let's start with Hinsdale's "how-to". He's outlined the process required to the public domain. It's freely available to anyone with internet access. Scripting that process and automating the manual process that Hinsdale has outlined seems to be a logical progression.




So, what is the purpose of this forum, in your view?

I'm sure you get this, but what you'd quoted was NOT my text on that one. But to answer the question you asked. MY view of the purpose of this forum is:

To exchange ideas and information and help others enjoy the possibilities that can be had with your Tivo box. If it's for an elite few, then it would seem to me that there would be a "members only" section where only certain people would even be allowed. Of course, for me, I stay away from such areas, since "development" has no value to me. I cannot understand what's being said nor can I contribute to the discussions. Short of a feature request, I'd just be in there shaking my head wondering why no one speaks English :).

Jamie
10-26-2004, 12:04 PM
... Look at Jamies work. A member less than 2 months and he fixes the USB problem that has been dogging people since Day1 w/Series2. Yeah, ADH jumped in to help (after Jamies initial sucess). Is this to say without him Jamie would not have suceeded? I don't think so.Please don't drag me into the sewer to use me as an example to make your case. I probably spent a month reading everything I could find, mostly on this forum, before I even cracked open my TiVo cases. I found the information here invaluable. If anything, I'm an example that this forum can still attract new blood who can spin up and make contributions relatively quickly.

mrblack51
10-26-2004, 12:07 PM
As is required in GPL sw unless you are M$

why does this sort of thing always go back to M$. they havve nothing to do with this discussion. The GPL is a license with many benefits, but its not the only license. When you release something, you can release it GPL or whatever you want, but the various developers here have choosen all kinds of licenses for all kinds of reasons. respecting that decision shouldnt be that difficult.

This is clearly becoming something more akin to you being upset with the various mods over a single individual and/or a single tool. You disagree with the ban - thats great, but you arent a mod, so you dont get to make that decision. you disagree with the deprecation of the tivoscripts iso that sleeper put together from others tools - good for you, but that doesnt change the fact that it is deprecated based on the technical merits of killhdinitrd.

I find it rather unfortunate you continually choose to spend your time in these sewer threads debating issues which really shouldnt be an issue - respect the people who make tools for you to use, be respectful to the people who have to keep order here, dont do stuff that will cause tivo to get pissed. why are things related to those simple ideologies so difficult to stomach?

alldeadhomiez
10-26-2004, 12:39 PM
Original developers get bored and leave. Once the main "nut" has been cracked the rest is really only crumbs.


Is a delusion of grandeur.

Plenty of people are capable of figuring out how to compromise these units.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. There are a lot of things left to do that are absolutely not "crumbs."

Compromising the unit is trivial compared to some of the things that others are working on right now.


It's true that the current crop of "developers/gods" here know more about the unit than anyone else.
The problem is they want to keep it that way!

You keep repeating this, but you have never offered evidence to back it up. So tell me this: what is it about rule #4 (or any DDB policy) that keeps people from learning?

I would assume that people who wanted to keep secrets from "anyone else" wouldn't post detailed messages to describe how things work. They wouldn't post source code. Heck, they might not post code at all. They might not even register an account here.

But that isn't what's happening. Knowledge is shared, information is organized, and people are educated. From what I've seen, those "in the know" have been very generous in sharing their findings. And why wouldn't they be? They have everything to gain from bringing others up to their level.

Why is that such a problem for you? Is it because you have chosen to share so little?


To quote JJ above... read don't infer. I read that post and all I saw was "some people don't like the fact that I've released the scripts, but tough, I'm going to keep updating my scripts and try to simplify the process of updating your Tivo".

He is still welcome to do so, as long as he does not violate the wishes of any developer whose work he is using.

In my estimation, he probably does not have the manpower to redo all of the work that is now off-limits to authors of "ISO"-like tools. Nor would I; no man is an island. So in effect, his post was a promise to continue redistributing the tools that he has been specifically asked not to bundle with his work. If you can think of a better explanation, I'm all ears.

Your attempt to draw a parallel between TivoScripts and the Hinsdale guide is deeply flawed. Guides don't contain software; ISO images do.

rc3105
10-26-2004, 01:06 PM
Plenty of people are capable of figuring out how to compromise these units. It's true that the current crop of "developers/gods" here know more about the unit than anyone else.
The problem is they want to keep it that way!
not really, source is avail for (allmost) all the major utilities. doesn't stop anybody from learning. even the "elite" are perfectly happy to help folks trying to learn

The cat is out of the bag
yep, that's not necesarily a good thing either. images are no longer freely avail, sw updates are encrypted, tivo legal has taken an unhealthy interest...

maybe you're used to only being able to share sw via irc & ftp sites that move around daily in the xbox scene, we'd sorta like to avoid that

Look at Jamies work. Less than 2 months and he fixes the USB problem that has been dogging people since Day1 w/Series2
and it only took olaf a few weeks to leapfrog tytool. must be some usefull info here

When there is enough motivation, ie:some show stopping problem, that needs to be solved, the hacking community will attack it with or without help from any elitists here.
two important words there hacking community. not a bad group, in sharp contrast to the leech community (fixit-fixit-fixit make it work I bought a tivo you owe me!) and the crapweasel community (I'm gonna take your work & make $ or a name for myself and if you don't like it you're just a <insert generic insult here>)

somebody wants to spend a month & learn enough to write their own <whatever> good for them, likely the info is avail, even help if it's not just some script kiddie (elders / mods cross pollinate projects all the time)

If there is sufficient demand, someone will make a public version. If not, no one cares anyway.
except that the tivo-verse is really a fairly small place. maybe if there were 10k developers (or even would-be developers) the wishlist of utilities would appear. when there's maybe 200 people the odds of finding an <insert required specialty here> guru are pretty slim and the hero / leech / crapweasel abuse effect can be devastating

Tiros
10-26-2004, 01:07 PM
You really have no idea what you're talking about. There are a lot of things left to do that are absolutely not "crumbs."
Compromising the unit is trivial compared to some of the things that others are working on right now.


Please elaborate.
Since compromising the unit and video extraction work, at the moment, what new ground breaking hacks are still absolutley needed?

The only thing missing now is a new script to automate it all. The Sleeper ISO was created due to demand. Like it or not that demand still exists. If the demand is great enough and not met here, it will be met elsewhere. If you try to stop it, you will only be as sucessfull as Tivo or TCF. You will just push it underground or force people to go elsewhere (just like when this board broke way frome TCF). Maybe you don't care.

The point is that if policies become too restrictive, people look for other ways to get the job done.

BTW:
I never implied that the info here is not useful. My point was just the opposite. The info here gives anyone technical the ability to come up to speed much faster than the original developers did.

alldeadhomiez
10-26-2004, 01:26 PM
Please elaborate.
Since compromising the unit and video extraction work, at the moment, what new ground breaking hacks are still absolutley needed?

The only thing missing now is a new script to automate it all.

A shell script that automates hack installation is not "ground breaking" by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is it "absolutely needed." Nor is it desired by the majority of the developers whose work would be incorporated into it. Face it, it's a bad idea. Accept the facts of the situation, and move on.

Now, in contrast, there are quite a few groundbreaking discoveries yet to be made. Like understanding and documenting the hardware interfaces. Or figuring out the rest of MFS. Or writing an MRV client or server. These are all much more worthwhile endeavors than slapping together another redundant installer that pisses off the contributors (again).


The point is that if policies become too restrictive, people look for other ways to get the job done.

Our policies encourage innovation and respect for the innovators, period. I'm not sure what else you could possibly ask for in a hacking board.


I never implied that the info here is not useful. My point was just the opposite. The info here gives anyone technical the ability to come up to speed much faster than the original developers did.

Then what's your complaint? Sounds like we're doing our jobs.

JJBliss
10-26-2004, 01:28 PM
... recreate anything done here.
RE-create. Get it?


...original developers
ORIGINAL developers Get it?


Go ahead and keep all your little "hacks" private. If there is sufficient demand, someone will make a public version.
Doubtful Trust me. There are MANY MANY hacks that are NOW private, and there are MANY that have been over the last few years that you have never seen DESPITE sufficient demand.



If not, no one cares anyway. If you think your the only one capable, your kidding yourself. When there is enough motivation, ie:some show stopping problem, that needs to be solved, the hacking community will attack it with or without help from any elitists here.
Maybe you should review your history.

mrblack51
10-26-2004, 01:33 PM
Please elaborate.
Since compromising the unit and video extraction work, at the moment, what new ground breaking hacks are still absolutley needed?

well, if that is your stand point, that everythign must be "absolutely needed", then none of the hacks since the first time you posted your sentiment have any meaning. however, there are lots of important hacks that have not been released or developed yet:

MRV for the s1 units that integrates with HMO
ability to transfer shows to an 810 and burn them
using 4.x software on a RID unit
HMO compatibility between a subbed unit and a non-subbed unit
understanding of the TuikRes structure, possibly insertion of custom menus and actions
mpg->ty conversion
write access to the mfs from C

and that is just scratching hte surface. if you wish to be complacent because your current unit is hacked to allow basic extraction, maybe even HMO...well, good for you. just because you may be happy with that, doesnt mean there is nothing to do.

in fact, if the attitude you took was the one used in the xbox or ps2 scene, then we wouldnt have advanced modchips like the xecuter3, dms4, o2, etc.

rc3105
10-26-2004, 01:35 PM
...MY view of the purpose of this forum is:

To exchange ideas and information and help others enjoy the possibilities that can be had with your Tivo box...
that's fair enough. the problem is that a hacked tivo is NOT a consumer level device. we're not here to support modified tivos - you break it, you own all the pieces


say you install a hot-rod control chip in your car's computer, damn well better know what you're doing because the dealer isn't going to warrenty the burned out O'2 sensors, fuel injectors & whatnot or pay the emissions fine at your next inspection


surely you can apreciate that as an IT guy? the scripts you're writing make your life easier but do NOTHING to help end users understanding. for instance, an accountant that just needs to send e-mail. if one of your scripts sets up outlook and a virus / update / whatever changes the settings he'll have NO idea how to fix it. if he'd spent 15 mins on the isp's "configuring your email" page during setup he'd at least have some knowlege to fall back on

the core objection from the knowledgeable is no learning required.

as a practical matter hordes of end users (pure consumers, locusts!) w/o a clue posting the same questions over and over and over and over and not understanding the answers makes the board less usefull and burns out the developers and samaritins that try to help

snowman
10-26-2004, 01:41 PM
Your attempt to draw a parallel between TivoScripts and the Hinsdale guide is deeply flawed. Guides don't contain software; ISO images do.

Okay, so would an all-encompassing "how-to" be okay? If, instead of printing the command on the screen (and then executing it), Sleeper had created a very elaborate how-to, would all have been well?

Please understand that the method of distribution here is alien to me. I'm used to the format of download.com, etc where it's a nice big file repository, not a 10 page thread with sometimes several generations being included in the thread at various stages.

So, let's start with an ISO (bootable linux), and instructions to get the latest versions of 14 different programs and put in this particular directory structure, then script the install of all of those?

You guys seem to be concerned that we understand what the heck is going on... Well, I don't understand what's going on behind the scenes. I have no clue WHAT patching the kernel entails, except that without it, Tivo will wipe out hacks and download a clean version (I think).

Certain things are pretty simple, such as telnet and ftp. They either work or they don't. They don't "somewhat" work.

I'd "settle" for (and actually rather have) a scripted install that allows me to use a larger drive, patches the kernel so that Tivo doesn't overwrite everything, enables USB networking, and gives me ftp and telnet access via the network.

You see, I don't have a clue what all Sleeper's ISO installed, what's necessary and what isn't. I have busybox on my machine... no idea what it is or if I need it (for instance). If you'll get me up and running with ftp to get the files TO the tivo and Telnet so I can run said files, I'm happy. Do I NEED tystudio? Don't know... let me figure that one out for myself. Same goes for tivowebplus. Same goes for this hack or that hack. The fact that I had to go in and do some "clean up" to remove the 30 second skip and something else from the author AND dump tivoweb so I could GET tivowebplus to even load, etc is where I feel the support problems come from.

As long as I don't sell your utils or start my own "upgrade service", would that work, or is the above paragraph's wishlist script "too much" to be released en masse such that it would empower those who would sell "upgrades" too easily?

I'll even go one step further. The latest hacking method of the kernel (and I'm botching the name), killinethd, seems to be WHAT allows me to do everything else (run networking, ftp, telnet, etc), charge me $20 for the self-installing patch (but I mean SELF-INSTALLING) and support it and offer future upgrades. "They" offer a license per tivo unit for resale. Honestly, I see no problem with that.

However, let's look at that fee per unit for resale fee that's being charged. Let's say I am completely up-front and use mfstools to put a larger drive in (and pay $20 for the license), and use killinethd (again, it's so far beyond my scope to even care to spell it correctly) to patch the kernel (and pay the license fee), and load the network drivers (and heck, even a license fee) and load telnet and ftp on it via GPL (assuming they are simple GPLs), and went to ebay and sold 43,000 of them, someone would STILL get upset.

JJBliss
10-26-2004, 01:46 PM
Please elaborate.
Since compromising the unit and video extraction work, at the moment, what new ground breaking hacks are still absolutley needed?
:rolleyes:

In 1899 Charles H. Duell, Comissioner of the U. S. Office of Patents, resigned, saying, "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

Boy, he looks like a real dolt NOW, don't you think.

Who would make such a stupid comment? Only someone without vision or skill to produce anything else.

This is now the second time I've heard such a ridiculous statement.

snowman
10-26-2004, 01:56 PM
that's fair enough. the problem is that a hacked tivo is NOT a consumer level device. we're not here to support modified tivos - you break it, you own all the pieces

Yes I do. However, if I break something and ask for help in fixing it, why is that a bad thing. You don't OWE me a fix, but I see no reason why I can't ask and why you can't answer.



say you install a hot-rod control chip in your car's computer, damn well better know what you're doing because the dealer isn't going to warrenty the burned out O'2 sensors, fuel injectors & whatnot or pay the emissions fine at your next inspection

NO DOUBT. However, I will call the company who made the chip and ask for help. Same as I ain't calling Tivo for help when I screw up my .author file. The difference here is of course, the payment. I know what alpha and beta mean and understand the risks involved.



surely you can apreciate that as an IT guy? the scripts you're writing make your life easier but do NOTHING to help end users understanding. for instance, an accountant that just needs to send e-mail. if one of your scripts sets up outlook and a virus / update / whatever changes the settings he'll have NO idea how to fix it. if he'd spent 15 mins on the isp's "configuring your email" page during setup he'd at least have some knowlege to fall back on

But it's cause and effect. Are we not a support forum? Are we not here to support each other and help out where we can?



the core objection from the knowledgeable is no learning required.


But my outlook user doesn't need to code outlook just to be able to use it.



as a practical matter hordes of end users (pure consumers, locusts!) w/o a clue posting the same questions over and over and over and over and not understanding the answers makes the board less usefull and burns out the developers and samaritins that try to help

And that's why we have newbie central. That's where we foster the learning of each other. The reason the same questions are asked over and over and over is.... inability to USE search. It isn't a lack of trying, it's a lack of knowing what to search for. HALF of my job is understanding how to search for the answers when something goes amuck. We all query support.microsoft.com, but you have to understand enough about the process to know that 1 answer is too few and wading through 500 is WAY too many. But the terminology used is what makes or breaks the usefulness of a search. That is EXACTLY why "information overload" takes place. So, you nudge people in the right direction. In just the last WEEK, I've learned a lot that helps with my searches. There are times I want to strangle PlainBill for not just giving me a freaking 2 second answer. But he tells me not "go search" but "go search for this and this".

I'm almost thinking we should rename this thread to "observations of a freaking newbie". :)

JJBliss
10-26-2004, 02:00 PM
Okay, so would an all-encompassing "how-to" be okay? If, instead of printing the command on the screen (and then executing it), Sleeper had created a very elaborate how-to, would all have been well?
You type an awful lot.
Actually, what would have been okay, would be to participate in these forums, learn all you can (and not spend your time in useless dialectic just for the sake of hearing your gums flap), and then instruct users, teach them to help themselves and learn what they need to know to participate in this hobby and not just get their tivo hacked


You guys seem to be concerned that we understand what the heck is going on... Well, I don't understand what's going on behind the scenes.
But you should.



I'd "settle" for (and actually rather have) a scripted install that allows me to use a larger drive, patches the kernel so that Tivo doesn't overwrite everything, enables USB networking, and gives me ftp and telnet access via the network.
Then you're not really the person we want here at dealdatabase. Sorry. It's a harsh reality.


...killinethd (again, it's so far beyond my scope to even care to spell it correctly)
Then you're not really the person we want here at dealdatabase. Sorry. It's a harsh reality. If you can't even search the name of the utility before you post about it, in context, then why bother?

This is not a retail shop. This is our hobby If you want it to be yours, then that's great. If you want us to support your learning in the hobby we're here to help. If you want to make the fruits of the hobby freely available to everyone without having to have them participate in the hobby, then we're not interested.

Tiros
10-26-2004, 02:00 PM
Doubtful Trust me. There are MANY MANY hacks that are NOW private, and there are MANY that have been over the last few years that you have never seen DESPITE sufficient demand.



Yeah, Yeah, heard it before. MANY MANY hacks.
Since I started here, the units were already compromised. Didn't need any "Secret" hacks to get bash and extraction. Still don't.
Now if any of that wasn't working, that would be a high demand hack. Many of the things developed here are really cool and useful, but only a certain percentage qualify as a "high demand" hack. Call me when they integrate the boot rom.

How come I have never seen the "sufficient demand" for these "secret" hacks.
So what are they?

JJBliss
10-26-2004, 02:02 PM
But my outlook user doesn't need to code outlook just to be able to use it.
And you don't need to know how to code tcl or C to use your Tivo.

malfunct
10-26-2004, 02:02 PM
learn what they need to know to participate in this hobby and not just get their tivo hacked

You know, that line really sums up the entirety of ddb. This forum is about tivo hacking the hobby which in all reality is more about the doing than it is about what gets done.

PVTUpgrade is there for you if you just want a tivo that spits out video and ddb is there for the other people that want to in some way learn how things work and participate in the hobby part of it all.

Thank you JJ for your perfect sumation of what has been forming in my mind for a long time now.

JJBliss
10-26-2004, 02:08 PM
How come I have never seen the "sufficient demand" for these "secret" hacks.
Because you are a TiVo leech. You only know what the developers allow you to know. You have no vision, as illustrated by your post above and you have no knowledge of what is possible. You know, things go on that YOU might not know about. Except maybe in the XBOX world.


So what are they?
Yeah, OK. That might happen. :rolleyes:

Tiros
10-26-2004, 02:28 PM
Because you are a TiVo leech. You only know what the developers allow you to know. You have no vision, as illustrated by your post above and you have no knowledge of what is possible. You know, things go on that YOU might not know about. Except maybe in the XBOX world.
Yeah, OK. That might happen. :rolleyes:


I don't know why Xbox keeps coming up, but wrt the modchips, an eprom pulled from an old PC, flashed with evox and wired point to point to the mainboard works just as well as the fancy schmancy Executor chips w/lcd readouts etc. etc. This only serves to prove my point. The original exploit still works and groups of so called "developers" jumped on the backs of guys like Bunnie who thought the whole thing up. Now all they do is add bells, whistles, LCD readouts and crap like that and tout the old work as deprecated. They are making money he is not. Does he care? I doubt it since he is an MIT grad and doesn't need to worry about someone making $20 off his work. Now all they do is add bells, whistles, LCD readouts and crap like that and tout the old work as deprecated. Sound familiar?

I know what's possible, the question is what is REALLY necessary.
The answer:Bash & extraction.
Since no one (except the inner circle) is aware of what's so important (since I only know what developers want me to know) could you please enlighten me on what high profile hacks still need to be done.

alldeadhomiez
10-26-2004, 02:41 PM
but only a certain percentage qualify as a "high demand" hack. Call me when they integrate the boot rom.

How come I have never seen the "sufficient demand" for these "secret" hacks.

So far you've used the word "demand" at least seven times in this thread.

What will it take to make you realize that "customer demand" isn't one of the more important forces that drives TiVo developers, and never was?


I know what's possible, the question is what is REALLY necessary.
The answer:Bash & extraction.

To reiterate: "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

So you've seen it all. What are you still here for?

rc3105
10-26-2004, 02:42 PM
Yes I do. However, if I break something and ask for help in fixing it, why is that a bad thing. You don't OWE me a fix, but I see no reason why I can't ask and why you can't answer.
we're not here to support hacked tivos, we're here to support tivo hobbyists. plenty of people willing to do that


NO DOUBT. However, I will call the company who made the chip and ask for help.
who will politely explain you should have had the chip professionally installed to avoid such problems

But my outlook user doesn't need to code outlook just to be able to use it.[QUOTE=snowman]
maybe not, but that's commercial sw designed for end users. using freeware hacks & utils often requires understanding the basic principles

We all query support.microsoft.com
HA!

you have to understand enough about the process to know that 1 answer is too few and wading through 500 is WAY too many. But the terminology used is what makes or breaks the usefulness of a search. That is EXACTLY why "information overload" takes place. So, you nudge people in the right direction. In just the last WEEK, I've learned a lot that helps with my searches. There are times I want to strangle PlainBill for not just giving me a freaking 2 second answer. But he tells me not "go search" but "go search for this and this".

and how exactly will an all-in-one installer help with that?

it makes the situation worse because now the average user with a problem only learned enough to hit enter 17 times instead of spending 3 hours with a good howto

if you understand the steps in the howto you can fix your own problems, or refer back to it. no lost-in-googlehits search required unless it's a bad howto (and that's another sore point, search for cobelli)


I'm almost thinking we should rename this thread to "observations of a freaking newbie". :)
a blind impatient newbie maybe, geez, do a lil reading before you post a novel and for gods sake quit trying to help people

Tiros
10-26-2004, 03:00 PM
So far you've used the word "demand" at least seven times in this thread.

What will it take to make you realize that "customer demand" isn't one of the more important forces that drives TiVo developers, and never was?

To reiterate: "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

So you've seen it all. What are you still here for?

If you think that "demand (#8)" has nothing to do with hacking or driving developers your way off base. I really can't believe you would even attempt to spew such garbage. Go ahead and cite even one hack that there was NO demand for. Anything really critical will never be private no matter what you say or do.

Why am I still here?
Waiting for a worthwhile project I guess.
I tried to help when the HD unit came out, and was clearly unwelcome.
Maybe when they integrate the prom..........

rc3105
10-26-2004, 03:07 PM
...Anything really critical will never be private no matter what you say or do.
it's a fancy vcr. the only critical functions are record & playback. tivo cust svc allready supports that. anything else is a hobbyist contribution

Maybe when they integrate the prom...
then you can prove you didn't sleep though Assembly 101 & be a huge hero to the clueless hordes *yawn

whining & annoying the folks posting usefull stuff is obviously the best thing to do until then

alldeadhomiez
10-26-2004, 03:16 PM
If you think that "demand (#8)" has nothing to do with hacking or driving developers your way off base. I really can't believe you would even attempt to spew such garbage.

Please point out where I said that demand has nothing to do with hacking or driving developers. Really, I'd like to see it.

Is it "a" factor? Sometimes. Is it one of the more important factors? Not often. Developers here tend to solve problems they're interested in instead of intentionally directing their efforts toward things that are likely to be the most popular releases. Because once again, it's a hobby, not a business. Developers are not accountable to "customers."


I tried to help when the HD unit came out, and was clearly unwelcome.
Maybe when they integrate the prom..........

Getting involved in a Sewer flamewar isn't normally what I would count as "helping."

Tiros
10-26-2004, 03:18 PM
it's a fancy vcr. the only critical functions are record & playback. tivo cust svc allready supports that. anything else is a hobbyist contribution

then you can prove you didn't sleep though Assembly 101 & be a huge hero to the clueless hordes *yawn

whining & annoying the folks posting usefull stuff is obviously the best thing to do until then

Just like your doing know.
If your one of the "folks posting usefull stuff" please identify the post number in this thread where YOU have made your "usefull" contribution.
Yeah I probably will be a hero on that day, especially when I make the info public with no strings attached.

rc3105
10-26-2004, 03:29 PM
well lets see, I've partially explained why things are the way they are, how they got there and how to avoid making it worse

obviously I need to go get a masters in teaching remedial / special needs courses if you can't see that

ealexius
10-26-2004, 03:40 PM
Just like your doing know.
If your one of the "folks posting usefull stuff" please identify the post number in this thread where YOU have made your "usefull" contribution.
Yeah I probably will be a hero on that day, especially when I make the info public with no strings attached.

My goodness, is it just me or does somebody need to have their mommy tuck them in for a nap? Seems more than a few members are getting a bit cranky!

Look, I may be just a 'Dumb-a.. Newbie', but at least I understand the difference between a Tivo Enthusiast (someone who enjoys USING their Tivo) and a Tivo Hobbyist (someone who enjoys learning about, altering the functionality of, and promoting the knowledgebase of the Tivo).

It seems pretty clear to me that this board was set up and continues to be dedicated to the promotion of THE HOBBY!!! Hello??!!

I first discovered this board as a result of my desire to get my DTivo HDVR2 on my home network for extraction purposes, and as such was looking for a quick and easy 'Out-of-the-box' solution. That isn't what I found, and for one I'm grateful.

What I did find was an environment that teaked my curiosity to the point where I became intreagued by the possibility of possibly learning enough that I can eventually develope some code of my own, thereby truely contributing to the spirit of this community.

For all of you who seem bent on convincing those individuals who truely embrace the spirit of what this board is intended to provide, that it should be something else (ie. a Tivo USER forum), I say get over it, relax a bit and you may find there is more here than yourealized. You may even get something out of it!

or maybee not, just a thought. ;)

mrblack51
10-26-2004, 03:41 PM
I don't know why Xbox keeps coming up, but wrt the modchips, an eprom pulled from an old PC, flashed with evox and wired point to point to the mainboard works just as well as the fancy schmancy Executor chips w/lcd readouts etc. etc. This only serves to prove my point. The original exploit still works and groups of so called "developers" jumped on the backs of guys like Bunnie who thought the whole thing up. Now all they do is add bells, whistles, LCD readouts and crap like that and tout the old work as deprecated. They are making money he is not. Does he care? I doubt it since he is an MIT grad and doesn't need to worry about someone making $20 off his work. Now all they do is add bells, whistles, LCD readouts and crap like that and tout the old work as deprecated. Sound familiar?

I know what's possible, the question is what is REALLY necessary.
The answer:Bash & extraction.
Since no one (except the inner circle) is aware of what's so important (since I only know what developers want me to know) could you please enlighten me on what high profile hacks still need to be done.

youre exactly right. and you prove my point by stating as such. yeah, the same basic modchip stuff that worked originally still works. that doesnt mean development should stop. you make a broad statement about deprecation...well, yeah, the original 29 wire modchips have been deprecated essentially, since basically all modchips these days are LPC based.

In the end, yeah, as has been stated, anything we do is bells and whistles. in reality, bash is useless to most, so why are you even mentioning it. in reality, the only feature that is worthwhile from what you are saying is extraction. well, good for you. but there are lots of other hacks that, while you dont see any point, many find very useful. things like tivoweb, callerid, etc.

the point is that this is a hobbiest board, just like the xbox scene is a hobbiest community. innovation is driven by people saying things like "hey, wouldnt it be neat if <insert random feature here>". Just because you see no use in the feature doesnt mena the development is meaningless.

in short, I have to agree with ADH's sentiment - its clear that you have your tivo hacked with bash and extraction enabled, so why are you still here? go ahead and enjoy that tivo, your xbox with a basic 29 wire modchip, and probably your 44 wire install of a neo modchip in a ps2 since its "good enough". we will continue to explore the tivo, because thats why we are here.

snowman
10-26-2004, 03:43 PM
it makes the situation worse because now the average user with a problem only learned enough to hit enter 17 times instead of spending 3 hours with a good howto

if you understand the steps in the howto you can fix your own problems, or refer back to it. no lost-in-googlehits search required unless it's a bad howto (and that's another sore point, search for cobelli)


Okay, where is this 3 hour how-to? I am NOT against learning what I need to learn. However, if we were all freaking geniuses, we'd do everything ourselves and would have no need for help from anyone else as we'd be programming ALL of our own hacks.

I've spent WELL over 3 hours trying to learn this stuff and so far, Sleeper's ISO is the only thing that's gotten me running. When I screwed something up, I came here for help, and ended up having to RE-sleeper it.

Tiros
10-26-2004, 03:43 PM
well lets see, I've partially explained why things are the way they are, how they got there and how to avoid making it worse

obviously I need to go get a masters in teaching remedial / special needs courses if you can't see that

oy... I just think it's funny that none of his fanboys are willing/capable



Your version/rants of what happened can hardly be considered "usefull contributions" any more than mine are.
Pot meet kettle. :)

Want to challenge me to see if I can come up with a non infringing killinitrd hack?

rc3105
10-26-2004, 04:03 PM
Okay, where is this 3 hour how-to?
just an example, that's about what I spent back when I first got started. course, my back & 3 ribs were broken and I was heavily medicated so that may have slowed things down :p

plenty of guides, I couldn't begin to guess which one's best suited to your current level of understanding. Von Hagen's book "Hacking the Tivo" covers the basics



Your version/rants of what happened can hardly be considered "usefull contributions" any more than mine are.
Pot meet kettle. :)

Want to challenge me to see if I can come up with a non infringing killinitrd hack?
well, since you haven't contributed anything usefull or been in on any of the behind the scenes stuff, yah, I'd say my take on things is a lil more valid

as for copying killhdinitrd? are you really that desperate for attention? *ouch


wanna do something usefull and maybe earn some respect from folks that don't have to remove thier shoes to count past 10? find a sw exploit for the new humax proms

mrblack51
10-26-2004, 04:06 PM
Okay, where is this 3 hour how-to? I am NOT against learning what I need to learn. However, if we were all freaking geniuses, we'd do everything ourselves and would have no need for help from anyone else as we'd be programming ALL of our own hacks.

hmmm, lets see, here are a few guides:
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37434&highlight=guide

well, thats a list of a number of guides, which give information on using a variety of hack methods.

Again, your implication is that you have to be just short of a rocket scientist to hack your tivo. this is simply not the case, and it is not somehting we are trying for. however, as with any true hobbiest community, we expect people to help themselves, help each other, respect each other, and learn. if you cant abide by those things, then enjoy your stock tivo.

Nobody is asking everyone to be a developer. however, there has to be a certain expectation of knowledge and a willingness to troubleshoot and fix things yourself based on available information. its unfortunate if you cant see the difference between those two.


I've spent WELL over 3 hours trying to learn this stuff and so far, Sleeper's ISO is the only thing that's gotten me running. When I screwed something up, I came here for help, and ended up having to RE-sleeper it.
so you used the tivoscripts iso, and when things got screwed up, you didnt have any ability to fix it, so you just wiped the drive and re-imaged. that doesnt seem like you have learned a lot by using that tool, now does it. if you had an understanding of what was going on, you might have been able to salvage your install, or at least know what you did wrong so you wouldnt do it again.

mrblack51
10-26-2004, 04:16 PM
I know what's possible, the question is what is REALLY necessary.
The answer:Bash & extraction.

oh yeah - based on this sort of post, there clearly is no need for any hack beyond the original kmem method for disabling scrambling, even though the NoCSO method lets you watch old shows while letting new shows record unscrambled? do you feel that the deprecation of kmem is also unfair?

are you still stuck on 3.1.u5 because you are using a pure bash_env hack? clearly since that worked for the non-rid s2 directivos and the sa s2 units (other than dvd or nightlight units), there is no need for anything else

snowman
10-26-2004, 04:57 PM
Nobody is asking everyone to be a developer. however, there has to be a certain expectation of knowledge and a willingness to troubleshoot and fix things yourself based on available information. its unfortunate if you cant see the difference between those two.


so you used the tivoscripts iso, and when things got screwed up, you didnt have any ability to fix it, so you just wiped the drive and re-imaged. that doesnt seem like you have learned a lot by using that tool, now does it. if you had an understanding of what was going on, you might have been able to salvage your install, or at least know what you did wrong so you wouldnt do it again.

Okay, here goes... I learn as I go. That's how I do it. That's MY method. We all have methods that work and don't work. Web-based training doesn't work for me. Instructor led training doesn't do much for me either. I can bury my head in a series of books and come out with great knowledge. However, until I can apply that knowledge, it has a very short-lived usefulness.

I used Tivoscripts, yes. When things got screwed up, *I* screwed them up. I posted what I'd done and asked for help. I think what I did was to upload the rc.sysinit.author file and not make it -x. So, none of the goodies (such as networking) worked. I took the drive out and booted to Linux and tried to mount the Tivo drive. I failed. I came on here and explained what I'd done and asked for help to mount the drive. I didn't get that help. I got told to go learn Linux and come back. To which I politely decided that I could either spend a few days trying to figure it all out or I could re-brick and be done with it. Since it's the Tivo my 2-year old gets "her" shows on, I decided to rebrick. This is AFTER I'd accepted the advice to hack it myself. I had a 120g drive in my PC that I've used MFStools on to backup the orig and expand. It's still a work in progress and will be -- until it no longer is. Then the 80gig TivoScripted one comes out and becomes the unit to hack the second Tivo unit on. At that point, I'll have a 40g and 80g "original" pair that sit on the shelf waiting for my next adventure.

Give a man a fish and he eats today, teach a man to fish and he eats for the rest of his life. In that analogy, if it's a 3 month "teaching" session, you gotta feed the guy along the way or you're going to have a dead pupil.

The fact that I haven't run away should tell y'all something (and it AIN'T that I like getting kicked in the nads).

tbellomo
10-26-2004, 05:01 PM
(Off Topic):
FYI...

Duell never actually said that thing about there being "nothing left to invent"... no one did. Just thought you might want to know.

A simple google (http://www.google.com) search would have produced this link (http://www.questel.orbit.com/Piug/piugl99/0719.html).

;)

--Timo

Tiros
10-26-2004, 05:12 PM
oh yeah - based on this sort of post, there clearly is no need for any hack beyond the original kmem method for disabling scrambling, even though the NoCSO method lets you watch old shows while letting new shows record unscrambled? do you feel that the deprecation of kmem is also unfair?

are you still stuck on 3.1.u5 because you are using a pure bash_env hack? clearly since that worked for the non-rid s2 directivos and the sa s2 units (other than dvd or nightlight units), there is no need for anything else

Riley,
I not saying that the Sleeper ISO is not deprecated.
I not saying there is NOTHING left to do or there are NO improvements to make.
I AM saying that MOST visitors here just want to get extraction up and running. Currently, that's a done deal.
I AM saying that a script that automates a tedious and time consuming process is not a bad thing. Thats why scripting languages exist.

If the shoe fits,
Just keep on slapping yourselves on the back telling each other how great you are and how stupid the rest of the world is.
Tell us only what you feel we should know.
Tell us we would have nothing if it werent for you.
Tell us you like newbies but hate thier questions.
Tell us you don't mind script tools and then restrict the use of your work to prevent them.
Tell us heros stole your code when in fact you are standing on the backs of giants yourselves.
Tell us that Sleeper is free to "fix" his ISO and then say that any such post will be deleted.
Tell us that Sleeper ISO "destroyed" units and is buggy while THOUSANDS have used it sucessfully.
Tell us to stop spending so much time in the sewer and get back to hacking, then post 90% of the sewer posts yourselves.
Tell us that "demand" is not a factor than race other (non inner circle) developers to be the first with a new "high demand" hack, if they get anywhere, use your mod power to silence the "trivial" accomplishment.
Tell us we don't need another ISO because it generates too many support problems than field hundreds of questions on how to use killinitrd.
Tell us that profiteering is ruining the hobby than demand $$$ to release your latest hacks.

The messages are clear:
Any which way the wind blows.
We want you to learn, but not more than us!

alldeadhomiez
10-26-2004, 05:52 PM
I AM saying that a script that automates a tedious and time consuming process is not a bad thing. Thats why scripting languages exist.

Scripts are fine, as long as you respect Rule #4. This rule is highly unlikely to affect any meaningful development project.


The messages are clear:
Any which way the wind blows.
We want you to learn, but not more than us!

Great conclusion, but it is entirely unsupported by any of the other assertions in your post. You really have a knack for repeating things that you can't back up.