Bounty complaints (split from: DirecTV R10 SUPPORT thread)

[mateom199]

Why not? We've had two already! (Name the movie)

PlainBill

I'm all for supporting developers and stuff. I mean, I can't do it, so I don't have a problem shelling out some money for a fix. But it seems the amount requested for the bounties is pretty rediculous. For all I know, the couple of thousand dollars is going to some linux whiz kid who spent maybe a day developing the hack/fix. It's not that I don't think the author(s) deserve compensation, I guess I just really have a problem with the amount thats demanded, and the whole secrecy about it.

Or maybe I'm just an *****.
:D

[alldeadhomiez]

I'm all for supporting developers and stuff. I mean, I can't do it, so I don't have a problem shelling out some money for a fix. But it seems the amount requested for the bounties is pretty rediculous. For all I know, the couple of thousand dollars is going to some linuz whiz kid who spent maybe a day developing the hack/fix. It's not that I don't think the author(s) deserve compensation, I guess I just really have a problem with the amount thats demanded, and the whole secrecy about it.

Or maybe it's going to a group who worked on it, and needs to be split several ways.

Have you looked at the code that's been released? Is this something you could do in a day? A week? A year? Why didn't you do it yourself and offer it up for $4000? Heck, I know I would.

If there really is some guy out there who can solve our most challenging problems in an afternoon, don't you think his time is pretty darn valuable in the first place? After all, he's probably not exactly working in fast food or installing burglar alarms all day...

[mateom199]

Or maybe it's going to a group who worked on it, and needs to be split several ways.

Have you looked at the code that's been released? Is this something you could do in a day? A week? A year? Why didn't you do it yourself and offer it up for $4000?

If there really is some guy out there who can solve our most challenging problems in an afternoon, don't you think his time is pretty darn valuable in the first place? After all, he's probably not working in fast food or installing burglar alarms all day...

Like I said, I can't do it. I know that. But do you know this group who released the RID fix? Do you know exactly how long it took them? Maybe you do, your a respected member of this community, and you've done/contributed zounds more than I ever will, but the fact remains...how do I know who made this and how long it took? And I do believe there are kids in college, with no job and plenty of free time, who are smart enough to do this in a relatively short time. My skepticism stems from the secrecy I suppose.

I don't want to start another fight over the bounties and stuff, so that's all I'll say. And you know, if there is a bounty, I will probably contribute...not happily, but what other option do I have.

[alldeadhomiez]

My skepticism stems from the secrecy I suppose.

DDB is not complicit in any secrecy surrounding this work. In fact, we went out of our way to make sure everyone had a chance to work on the Uma6 problem here without interference.

Was the group who developed it secretive? It would seem that way, but that is their right. We can't force people to share. Some of the competing groups also appeared to operate this way.

And you know, if there is a bounty, I will probably contribute...not happily, but what other option do I have.

You can improve your skills so that next time, you can do the job yourself. We can always use more of those people here. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Find the Series2.5 hole and release it for free. Nobody will stop you.

When your refrigerator breaks and you don't know how to fix it, do you get upset with the repairman for sending you a bill?

[PlainBill]

<SNIP>

When your refrigerator breaks and you don't know how to fix it, do you get upset with the repairman for sending you a bill?

I think this is something most people ignore. The value of an item is not just a function of the amount of time spent developing it. If 100 (or whatever) people were willing to spend a total of $5000 for this hack, does it really matter how many hours the programmers spent working on it? Shouldn't the time spent developing their skills also be considered?

Also look at the killhdinitrd hack. IIRC, the bounty for that was only $500, but it has benefited everyone who wishes to hack a Series 2 TiVo.

PlainBill

[alldeadhomiez]

I think this is something most people ignore. The value of an item is not just a function of the amount of time spent developing it. If 100 (or whatever) people were willing to spend a total of $5000 for this hack, does it really matter how many hours the programmers spent working on it?

And compared to the alternative (buying a questionable Uma4 unit off eBay for $100-150), uma6fix sure looks like a bargain. Excluding old versions of the software (~100 downloads IIRC), somewhere between 355 and 458 people have downloaded it so far. At an average cost per user of somewhere between $11 and $14, and with many users owning several Uma6 boxes, maybe $5000 was a little low when you compare it with the huge sum of money people have already saved.

Edit: split to general discussions.

[Montaño]

I don't know that a bounty will even be an issue for 6.x. Those who wanted HMO/Networking/MRV/etc.... now have it with 4.x. It would seem that 6.x would have to have something superior to 4.x in order to generate enough interest and/or need for 6.x to be hacked. As ADH has said, there is no need (at present) to upgrade to 6.x

[JohnSorTivo]

I don't know that a bounty will even be an issue for 6.x. Those who wanted HMO/Networking/MRV/etc.... now have it with 4.x. It would seem that 6.x would have to have something superior to 4.x in order to generate enough interest and/or need for 6.x to be hacked. As ADH has said, there is no need (at present) to upgrade to 6.x
Aren't you forgetting about those who are getting their first Tivo, which will have this configuration, and as such, unless they perform a PROM hack, are going to be stuck with a stock unit.

Heck, using the same logic, I saw no need for the RID hack, since I'm running 2 HDVR2s, which run 4.x just fine. It's not necessarily about upgrading to 6.1 as much as it is about those that are already stuck with it.

[alldeadhomiez]

Aren't you forgetting about those who are getting their first Tivo, which will have this configuration, and as such, unless they perform a PROM hack, are going to be stuck with a stock unit.

Heck, using the same logic, I saw no need for the RID hack, since I'm running 2 HDVR2s, which run 4.x just fine. It's not necessarily about upgrading to 6.1 as much as it is about those that are already stuck with it.

For about the first 1.5 years of Series2 DTiVo hacking, we were forced to downgrade at least partially to 3.1.U5 just to get into the box. There were no exploits for the newer software. It is almost inevitable that getting into the box will require downgrading to an exploitable version of one or more components. 6.1 built for the Series2.0 should boot just fine with the exploitable 3.1.5 kernel; it is a non-issue on this hardware. If somebody buys a DVR80 with 6.1 preinstalled and wants to hack it, they will still need to find an exploitable kernel image, at the very least.

The real issue here is what to do about the Series2.5 hardware. There are no public holes in any of the software versions that run on these boxes (5.3, 5.4, and 6.1). Although the benefits of releasing an exploit must be weighed against the cost of finding the next one after the hole is closed, it is definitely not in the community's best interest to get left behind instead of learning how to work with the most recent hardware and software.

We've got a thread on here somewhere about "developers needing Series2 boxes." Maybe we need another thread dedicated to providing PROM (and RAM?) mods for developers' Series2.5 boxes.

[Montaño]

That was the point of my post, that obviously didn't come across. Unless all new DTivo's are going to be 2.5 units, then I don't think the demand will be there. RID boxes and non-RID boxes were both S2 units. Whereas the R10 is a 2.5.

I still feel that unless 6.x adds something substantial, 4.x will continue to be the preferred method for S2's since it is readily available. Who's going to pay a bounty for 6.x if it does nothing more than 4.x ?

[JohnSorTivo]

I think we're coming at this from 2 different perspectives.
Who's going to pay a bounty for 6.x if it does nothing more than 4.x ?
People who buy a new series2.5 DTivo are, since they won't be able to do anything with their units, at least very easily, until some sort of hack arrives.

This will happen as the series2.5 units reach a critical mass / the demand becomes high enough, as the RID units disappear off the shelves and are completely replaced with these units.

It's not about a bounty to run 6.x, it will be about a bounty to make the 6.x hackable.

Unless all new DTivo's are going to be 2.5 units, then I don't think the demand will be there.
One would have to assume that this is their plan, to stop production off all s2 units in favor of the more "cost effective" s2.5, just as all HDVR2/DSR7000s were replaced with the RID units.

[snowman]

IF (and I just don't know) the 2.5 units will run 4.x without any new hacks needed, then 4.x will be what everyone with 6.x "upgrades" to.

As to who would pay for it, etc, maybe no one. But sooner or later, we're going to have to go to 6.x or a future version. Until Tivo either a) stops making 4.x usable or b) puts something in 6.x that we don't already have, why would we even consider upgrading?

Remember though that the R-10 IS an upgrade over the S2 RID Dtivos that are running 3.1.1e. 6.1 gives folders, 3.1.1e doesn't. So those who have no intention of ever hacking their units get something new with 6.1. The fact that 6.1 has fewer features than the STAND ALONE 4.x is an unknown to the bulk of Dtivo users. 4.x never existed for Dtivos (from DirecTV).

However, the trend among everyone out there is to upgrade to the latest version just because you can. Whether it gains you ANYTHING is a moot point. The fact that 6.1 takes away features of 4.x, is the only real reason I can see why tools aren't already being upgraded to support 6.x. No one in their right mind would "upgrade" 4.x to 6.1 right now.

[JJBliss]

No one in their right mind would "upgrade" 4.x to 6.1 right now.
:rolleyes:
Unless they were doing it as a hobby.

[JohnSorTivo]

IF (and I just don't know) the 2.5 units will run 4.x without any new hacks needed, then 4.x will be what everyone with 6.x "upgrades" to.
That's one of the major points of this thread, and where this discussion stems from, as ADH has outlined that the hardware is so vastly different that 4.x will indeed NOT run on a 2.5 box without major work:

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=199068&postcount=37

No one in their right mind would "upgrade" 4.x to 6.1 right now.
Again, those who buy a new series2.5 appear not to have such a luxury, as the "upgrade" has been done for them, though it's from 3.x to 6.x.

[Montaño]

I think we're coming at this from 2 different perspectives.

People who buy a new series2.5 DTivo are, since they won't be able to do anything with their units, at least very easily, until some sort of hack arrives.

This will happen as the series2.5 units reach a critical mass / the demand becomes high enough, as the RID units disappear off the shelves and are completely replaced with these units.

It's not about a bounty to run 6.x, it will be about a bounty to make the 6.x hackable.


One would have to assume that this is their plan, to stop production off all s2 units in favor of the more "cost effective" s2.5, just as all HDVR2/DSR7000s were replaced with the RID units.

I don't see the 2.5's replacing the 2.0's anytime soon. As ADH mentioned, 4.x has been out for 2 years and has only recenly been made available for (RID) DTivo's. Perhaps in 2 years 2.5's will be running in the majority of households.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that at some point in time...after all our S1's & S2's are dead and gone, we may all have to convert to 2.5's.

For those who have their Tivos functioning the way they want them to, they will have no need to change to a 2.5 unit. Of course the hobbyists will want to figure out a way to break the 2.5's, that's the joy of doing what they do.

I just don't see as great a demand for a 6.x/2.5 hack at this moment in time, as there was for a 4.x RID hack. Of course there are people who'd like to have all the hacks available for their 2.5 boxes, but is there enough of them to put out a $5000 bounty? I'm asking about the present time, not a year from now.

[rc3105]

allmost nobody has 2.5 dtivos

it's possible to use legit mrv to transfer to a series 2.0 for decryption

2.0 boxes are still on store shelves everywhere and refurbs are cheap

tivo2go will supposedly (real soon now, honest) allow for extract + archive w/o hacking


probably not. need an economics 101 refresher?


check back in a few months when:

we all know how much 6.x drm really sucks

commercial skip has been disabled

uma4/6 boxes are becoming scarce

there are a few thousand people with 2.5 series hardware that might be interested