Why do people follow "guides"? (split from: Dissatisfied with PTVUpgrade's sales proc [Archive] - DealDatabase Forum - Deals, Freebies, and TiVo & DirecTivo Hacking

ronnythunder

01-01-2005, 08:10 PM

as crazy of a thought as this may be to some, consider this: there is a *large* contingent of people who simply aren't technically inclined and/or have no desire to learn how to hack, but just want the hacks to work.

now, before anyone starts yelling, consider this: any of you "heavy hitters" running linux? did you install it from a distro? surely not, right? surely no redhat, gentoo, and of course, even no suse or debian, right? because why should you take the lazy way out and use a distro? why not just get a kernel from kernel.org, go to gnu.org and get the libs and build it yourself?

no, i suspect that i'm not the only person who's installed linux with a distro. i took the "easy way out". heck, there's a lot about my install that i don't know about, but i know where to look if i have problems. does that make me a bad person?

now, having said all of that, if we *really* want to talk about guides, here's what i think is missing from all of them (well, the one's i've read, anyway): they all tell *what* to do, but few really tell *why* to do. for example, a lot of people get tripped up on the whole partition 4/7 thing. if i were to make a guide, i'd say something like this:

the tivo actually contains two complete installations of it's operating system software, stored in seperate areas called "partitions". one version is the current running software, and the other is either empty or contains the previous version of the operating system. your hacks will need to be installed on the current operating system's partition, so first, we need to determine which partition that is.
...

i think if people understand why they're doing something, it's easier for them to adapt. of course, the downside to this approach is that the guide will get rather large. and of course, the downside to any guide is that it has to be maintained, which is as much of a labor of love as writing the thing in the first place.

ronny

JJBliss

01-01-2005, 08:29 PM

ronnythunder:

Your logic is almost acceptable, but not for dealdatabase. This is the home of the development of the products that they "just want to work". This is not the appropriate place to look for a cookbook. This is the place to learn how to cook.

There are other forums that should probably stick to the guide/cookbook motif. The average member on other forums lack technical expertice that is required to develop and participate in the design of the newest hacks, and should be relegated to those forums until such time that they are interested in learning how to hack, and how/why things work.

Continuing on the cookbook metaphor -

For example, CIA (Culinary Institute of America) is a school that teaches cooking. They teach the theory, logic and science behind why heat changes food's characteristics, what makes things taste a certain way, how things combine, why garlic is sharper when it's cut and sweet when it's whole, and what processes and techniques are used then they hone those skills. They explain and test the students on priciples that make master chefs. Cookbook/recipes, on the other hand, tell the reader to chop the garlic finely. They don't tell them why, nor does the average recipe reader care, as long as it tastes good. The recipe will tell them to heat cream for a specific dish, but not explain the chemical reaction that takes place when energy is added to the lactic acid structures and what the results are. This is fine for the homemaker or casual cook, but unnacceptable for someone who wishes to go into the food business.

You had better NOT enroll at the CIA looking for recipes. For that, you need to buy a book, or search google for the recipe pages.

DDB is like CIA. Here we can provide the raw knowledge to churn out some of the greatest Tivo hackers the world might ever see. We have no intention of churning out recipes. Some of the masters might take their knowledge and create them, but they'd never be used in class. DDB is the classroom.

If someone is interested in participating in this forum, in this classroom, they are welcome to come in and learn. If they want to follow a guide, they are welcome to do that as well, but this is not the place.

ronnythunder

01-01-2005, 08:42 PM

jj, that's a very, very good analogy. i must confess, i'd never quite thought of it that way, and of course, you're absolutely correct. that might almost be the basis for a sticky somewhere, because i think it would help explain to the newbies what we're about. i think that's what's most misunderstood here: we want to teach you how to cook, not to give you recipes.

now, if we could only *charge* what the cia charges it's students... ;)

ronny

PlainBill

01-01-2005, 08:44 PM

Simply put, I used a guide (actually TiVoScripts), because that is the way I learn. A few hours reading the thread (about 45 pages), a few hours running the script, patching, etc. and I had a working system - except for the network. Figure out that I had specified the wrong adapter, so I started over. When I entered the wrong IP address, I learned how to find the right file, edit it AND to make sure I am working from the right information (again). At this point I could install patches, edit rc.sysinit.author, change drivers, etc. all with confidence that no matter WHAT I screwed up I could start over easily. THIS made me relax enough I never had to start over again. And allowed me to study what is happening on a working system while helping others.

In a large part, I used TiVoScripts because there was no discernable organization to the information here. I tried to hack it myself - I really did. But the mass of broken links, outdated threads, and errors forced me to abandon that approach.

Personally, I think we need another guide - one without ANY commands.

"ALWAYS work from a copy of your original drive. Put the original away so you can recover if anything goes wrong. (pointer to image begging thread). To make a backup, see Hinsdale's How To (pointer to Hinsdale's How To)."

"Use pdisk to see how your drive is partitioned. Note that some partitions are in sets. Explain the meaning of partitions. (Pointer to documentation for pdisk)."

"Run bootpage to determine the active partition set (pointer to ADH's updated bootpage). The boot partition is one less than the root partition."

"Install a killhdinitrd kernel. Explanation of 'chain of trust' and how and why killhdinitrd is used to break that chain. (pointer to killhdinitrd threads AND sources of kernels)."

Etc.

Etc.

PlainBill

alldeadhomiez

01-01-2005, 09:04 PM

as crazy of a thought as this may be to some, consider this: there is a *large* contingent of people who simply aren't technically inclined and/or have no desire to learn how to hack, but just want the hacks to work.

In many cases these goals are fundamentally incompatible. They wind up learning anyway, because most of what's posted here isn't "commercial grade" (nor do the developers necessarily want it to be). There will inevitably be a learning curve of some sort, because making things dummyproof (and doing it right) is technically and politically difficult, expensive, and legally risky.

In an ideal world, people who are unwilling to tackle the learning curve will go away, and people who are willing to learn will be able to do so with as little busywork and hand-holding as possible. In short, I want to minimize the amount of wasted time and effort, so that people are free to concentrate on developing new things. How can we work toward this goal?

now, having said all of that, if we *really* want to talk about guides, here's what i think is missing from all of them (well, the one's i've read, anyway): they all tell *what* to do, but few really tell *why* to do.

Agreed; most guides provide little, if any, background information. They don't explain the "big picture," and they don't explain any of the finer details necessary to successfully complete the process. They also tend to avoid listing prerequisites we all know are mandatory, such as the ability to use shell commands and the all-important serial cable. These omissions usually negate any benefits the guide may have had, in my view.

mbellot

01-02-2005, 01:43 AM

In many cases these goals are fundamentally incompatible. They wind up learning anyway, because most of what's posted here isn't "commercial grade" (nor do the developers necessarily want it to be). There will inevitably be a learning curve of some sort, because making things dummyproof (and doing it right) is technically and politically difficult, expensive, and legally risky.

Two things.

1. Its not ever really dummy proof, merely dummy resistant to a greater or lesser extent.

2. It would require a limitless supply of dummies, something which does not seem to be well tolerated here at DDB (insert applause here).

To answer the original question regarding guides, I have minimally hacked my S1 SA... It now has a 250GB drive (with an LBA48 kernel) and a turbonet card with bash, ftpd and mfs_ftp. I played with TivoWebPlus, but its a bit beyond me at this point (I'll keep reading and experimenting).

I accomplished all of the above modifications by reading *multiple* guides as well as digging through the posts here and on TC. Nothing teaches better than failure, and if its someone else's failure then so much the better.

There will never be a substitute for independant thought and the people who seek such solutions will inevitably be disappointed.

My $0.02

shawn

01-02-2005, 06:49 PM

This is why a complete accurate guide i think should be made.
We have at least 500 post due to the incomplete guide.
We have an entire thread dedicated to TMK INSERTION FAILURE.
As Letterman would say
"and the #1 reason for accurate guides is"

**********************************************************

Houston We Have A Go!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, we are up and running. My final step was to setup the network card via the aurthor file and once the TiVo came up I telneted in and ran the superpatch and the fakecall.tcl.

Now that everything is up and running a few question.

1. Do I need to run the guide patch?

2. Do I continue to prevent it from calling home? Right now it is set to call via the phone which is now blocked but it also is has the option to dial via the internet.

edit:

Do recall reading that there is no need for the unit to call home.

3. Selecting movies to record its say that it is getting the information from the satelitte but that full data will take 1 - 2 days.

edit:

The data is populating but I don't see Desperate Housewives in the list.

4. How does this affect PPV?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by lightiv : Today at 10:39 PM.

NutKase

01-02-2005, 08:30 PM

midspan

01-02-2005, 08:45 PM

Ah, but the bigger question is: why do people follow these "guides" in the first place? Clearly, many or most of the guide authors know very little about the subject matter. Why would anybody in their right mind want to follow that sort of advice?

Is it for lack of better or more organized documentation? Would it help to have a semi-centralized source of reference material to speed up the learning curve?

Is it because the community is attracting lazy people who want an "easy fix"

What can we do to ensure that our users are well-informed?

Alrighty , here's my two cents worth............................
For one ,this is the most in depth source for accomplishing the means to an end , which is Tivo customization,hacking,personalizing,adapting, etc.. etc .
everyone comes here for a different reason and as everyone is aware you do a search for tivo hacks and just about the whole first page comes up with links to here so naturally this is where almost everyone starts myself included
hence the the diversity in mindsets in this forum.
Second the Guides have their place but not everyone grasps the idea that it is a guide not a walkthrough or step by step that i think is the BIGGEST problem here .
I was lucky to know just enough Linux to see the points where i had to modify what was written to what was needed for my set up i wound up useing 2 guides and 3 different ways to set my DTIVO's up i could not have gone step by step with any one Guide or i would have failed time and time again. The wealth of information in this forum is insurmountable it is EXTREMELY unorganized and for someone with absolutely no analytical skills or comprehension of terms would be forever lost in the mass of imformation in here.

i understand the directives of this forum but people that come here don't realize what it is about,HOWEVER, they do see that this is where all the information is hence the clash and confusion, some don't want to learn , some simply don't have time which woulda been myself as i work mandatory 6 day work weeks , screamin wife cuz ya wanna mess with the tv dream machine,
or just impatient, there's a hundred reasons.
Others just can't understand the language at all but still want to reap the benefits of what others have and can follow instructions even if they don't know what it all means.
In the end there should be Guides i think as long as their aware that there not step by step and there is a degree of interpretation. There
Should be a page, or link to one that describes commands used and for what
and just let everyone know this is a Forum to understand hacking tivo's and no one here is just going to spell it all out.i think that everyone that has successfully hacked there Tivo,Dtivo should write a structured Guide type with there model name and experience level or some similar sorts listed as REFERENCE ONLY!! and in it's own place that would truly help people understand that have similar equiptment and what they need to be learning so there not absorbing the wrong information. I have seen people in here trying to apply series 1 hacks to series 2 boxes and vice versa simply because they don't know what they need! (example) If i own a volvo why would i study a chevy manual? i would if i wanted to be an experienced all round mechanic i would study them ALL!!!! but if i just wanted to know how to keep my car purring in tip top shape or supe it up i would want to study about Volvo or atleast start there and then move on when i have a better grasp on the lingo etc.. , CAPISH?
Ok ok it was 3 cents worth but i think everyone can relate to one or two sentences here.

the truth is out there TRUST NO Guide! :D

NutKase

01-02-2005, 09:18 PM

i think that everyone that has successfully hacked there Tivo,Dtivo should write a structured Guide type with there model name and experience level or some similar sorts listed as REFERENCE ONLY!!

Holy Crap! If that EVER happens, I'm gone.

NutKase

shawn

01-02-2005, 09:46 PM

midspan

01-02-2005, 09:51 PM

Holy Crap! If that EVER happens, I'm gone.

NutKase

if it had it's proper place why not? even if it was off this forum,,,
would you rather the ones who truly have a hard time sorting out what they need to know and what doesnt even pertain to them be at a loss and not get to experience what you already know ?

mbellot

01-02-2005, 10:01 PM

We don't need a guide to fix that.

We need people to stop responding to lazy 'give it to me' posts like that.

We need the people who ask questions like that to be sent to the 'stupid tax' penalty box for 3 or four days, with a little note that says "asked lazy questions w/out attempting to help yourself. Now you have the time."

Good idea, but make sure it just removes the ability to post. Give them full access to the forums so they can fix their problem if its already been discussed ad nauseum.

So my proposition is that we delete responses to questions whose answers are easily found or that have been asked and answered recently in other threads (in an effort to wean the lazy off the drug), and place the lazy poster in timeout.

How about giving a posting timeout to the "helpful" person as well. A gentle reminder that DDB is not about spoon feeding the leeches.

Also, I've long been in favor of a minimum time from join to first post system. It would allow time for the dedicated to read and learn and possibly annoy and make those not willing to learn quit and go elsewhere. Either way the board will start to be filled with those dedicated/learning types and not the problem children.

Here I disagree, but mostly for personal reasons. I happen to be one of the few that DOES bother to read through posts/stickys prior to posting, and usually even prior to joining the forum (why join and then find out I don't want to be a member).

I had another forum drive me insane with this kind of rule. I had been lurking for about a month when someone asked a question I could actually answer quite well that was going unanswered. I decided to register and became further frustrated by the fact I couldn't post for one week after registering.

NutKase

01-02-2005, 10:07 PM

NutKase,
This is why you are a lightning rod for PM

2 each, SA S2 287hr 4.0.1b-02's with Lifetime.
Hacks: Manually Monte'd, Bash,Telnet,FTP,TivoWebPlus,
Superpatch-4all Unscrambled/HMO,MFS_FTP Ver. N,TyTools

I don't get that many pms and never said I did. Maybe 2 a month. I just refer them to posting on the board so everyone can benefit.

Maybe change it to 1 sleepered the other hacked following lightiv's re-guide.

That IS funny though :).

NutKase

mcomer

01-02-2005, 10:07 PM

1) Some people are lawyers. Some people are doctors. Some people are rocket scientists. Some people are computer geeks (me included, I have five Linux boxen in the house NOT inluding the two Tivo's plus 3 Windoze pc's). Not everyone has the time, inclination, or energy to learn everything that we know about these miracle devices, they just want them to work. As stated in an earlier post, some don't want to learn how an internal combustion engine works, they just want to drive the damn car. True; you can "drive" a Tivo without hacking it, but there are some things that are simply great to have that don't come "stock" - that's why you guys put the time and energy into finding or creating this stuff.

2) Some folks just aren't quick/bright enough for it. Let's face it, some people have a harder time with this stuff than others. A guide gives them a way they can do something for themselves like Haynes or Chiltons does for a car. Somebody does all the work to figure out the hard crap, and the rest can follow along.

3) There really aren't any great sources of info other than DDB. The "other" forum bites moose dork. The ridiculous supression of information and political correctness over there make even the newbs crazy.

4) The search feature here really isn't that friendly. The default of "threads" for a results display is a pain; I'm sure a lot of newbs don't know to change to "posts". The simplistic keyword search ("and"-mode only) makes fine-grained searches impossible. A guide eliminates the need to read hundreds or thousands of posts to figure out what you want to know.

Wait. I'm rambling.

Why people want guides:
- Some people don't want to read RFC821, RFC974, RFC2821, RFC1939, RFC3501, etc to understand the history, theory, and workings of internet mail, smtp, pop3, and imap. They just want to use their email.
- Some people are afraid they'll screw something up and end up having to explain to their wives why the Tivo is dead. And why all their recordings are lost. And why they have to go out now and buy a new one.

:)

For the record, I did not use a guide to hack my two Series2 DTivos. However, as previously stated, I am clearly a geek. However I did use a Haynes manual when I changed the head gaskets on the 3.8L V6 in my wife's Ford minivan. Thank god; I would have been screwed without it.

-Matt

NutKase

01-02-2005, 10:13 PM

Here I disagree, but mostly for personal reasons. I happen to be one of the few that DOES bother to read through posts/stickys prior to posting, and usually even prior to joining the forum (why join and then find out I don't want to be a member).

I had another forum drive me insane with this kind of rule. I had been lurking for about a month when someone asked a question I could actually answer quite well that was going unanswered. I decided to register and became further frustrated by the fact I couldn't post for one week after registering.

I don't think we disagree. If it was clear that there was a 'week from register to first post' requirement, the month you spent lurking/reading/learning would've easily filled the requirement and you'd have been good to go. A week isn't all that long, maybe a month... and a 'penalty' if you post a guide :).

So:

1. Register
2. Read/learn try to figure out what's going on with tivo hacking
3. Post when you can.

It may not help the 'I killed my tivo last night' or 'I want it hacked during this weekend' crowd but they should be reading and learning what they should be doing, or are about to do, while hacking their tivos.

NutKase

PlainBill

01-03-2005, 12:00 AM

if it had it's proper place why not? even if it was off this forum,,,
would you rather the ones who truly have a hard time sorting out what they need to know and what doesnt even pertain to them be at a loss and not get to experience what you already know ?

One obvious problem would be the number of unnecessary guides. Off the top of my head, there are more than a dozen models of Series 2 DirecTiVos. However, in fact, there are only three different models. (Standard definition Non-RID, Standard definition RID, High Definition). I'm taking the liberty of classifying the R10 as Series 2.5. Again, the majority of the Series 2 Stand Alone are identical for hacking purposes (excluding those with DVR and DVD player, and of course the Series 2.5 models).

Another flaw with your suggestion is most of the drfferences are NOT between models, but between features.

PlainBill

midspan

01-03-2005, 12:27 AM

One obvious problem would be the number of unnecessary guides. Off the top of my head, there are more than a dozen models of Series 2 DirecTiVos. However, in fact, there are only three different models. (Standard definition Non-RID, Standard definition RID, High Definition). I'm taking the liberty of classifying the R10 as Series 2.5. Again, the majority of the Series 2 Stand Alone are identical for hacking purposes (excluding those with DVR and DVD player, and of course the Series 2.5 models).

Another flaw with your suggestion is most of the drfferences are NOT between models, but between features.

PlainBill

True but still a difference none the less;;;
Think you all are missing the point maybe it is my fault for calling it a structured guide?
I simply meant SOME kind of catagory and some place for people who have successfully completed there own . thus giving somone else an opertunity to maybe see a similar prob there haveing with theres and see how someone else resolved it and same time give the mods and others that are more enept to TEACH by seeing what others have done and allow for correction instead of the all to familiar look and mess it up yourself then beg for an answer ya sewer rat most here say LOOK, SEARCH,LEARN for yourself and you know what, thats fine for alot of people that have the capability but you can't deny those few who honestly can't without more PLAIN english GUIDEnce. if you ask me it would be ALOT more interactive that way
hey but what do i know it isn't my forum . I just have a problem with being opinionated ,, it's a curse :)

shawn

01-03-2005, 12:41 AM

All who put this together should make a downloadable auto installer with a small donation fee required. Soon as you ask a dumb question you get a link to purchase. Or maybe a pay per question basis.

midspan

01-03-2005, 12:56 AM

Yo,, i'de go with that one :D think that would be little diffucult though

and sept the dumb question part.
because in education there are no dumb questions.................

mbellot

01-03-2005, 01:01 AM

Why people want guides:
- Some people don't want to read RFC821, RFC974, RFC2821, RFC1939, RFC3501, etc to understand the history, theory, and workings of internet mail, smtp, pop3, and imap. They just want to use their email.

Not a valid comparision. You can be blissfully ignorant of all the awful details contained the the RFCs by using a pre-wriiten email application.

Very few "canned" solutions exist for much of the TiVo hacking that is being discussed.

- Some people are afraid they'll screw something up and end up having to explain to their wives why the Tivo is dead. And why all their recordings are lost. And why they have to go out now and buy a new one.

Then don't do it. If your wife scares you that much perhaps you should look into a court order. Or buy a "spare" TiVo on fleabay to experiment with while the wife sits quietly on the couch.

Or maybe a pay per question basis.

Take it one step further. Make no promise that the specific problem may be solved and you know what you have created?

Microsoft Tech Support.

:eek:

NutKase

01-03-2005, 02:04 AM

catagory
there
opertunity
haveing
theres
enept
to
thats
GUIDEnce
ALOT

you can't deny those few who honestly can't without more PLAIN english GUIDEnce. if you ask me it would be ALOT more interactive that way
hey but what do i know it isn't my forum.

For real... I hope english isn't your first language. If so, you have an excuse.

Regardless of your 'typed expressions' I disagree with most of your points.

(HINT: I make typo's a lot of the time... I do, however, try to fix them...)

My point is, I can't even read your opinions enough to respond.

the all to familiar look and mess it up yourself then beg for an answer ya sewer rat most here say LOOK, SEARCH,LEARN for yourself and you know what, thats fine for alot of people that have the capability but you can't deny those few who honestly can't without more PLAIN english GUIDEnce.

Yes, actually the board CAN deny people who can't handle hacking 'their' tivo if they need 'PLAIN english GUIDEnce'.

if you ask me it would be ALOT more interactive that way

Who said DDB CARES if it's 'more interactive'?

NutKase

midspan

01-03-2005, 02:29 AM

Hey NutKase
ddddid i spell that right?
was wondering who would be the first to be at such a loss they would have to resort to a personal attack , my money was on you of course.
God i hate it when i'me right......................

P.S
then post a frickin sign sayin the Forum is for linux rocket scientist ONLY!
and then you have noone to belittle anymore. OH BUT WAIT what fun would that be right?

midspan

01-03-2005, 03:05 AM

Who said DDB CARES if it's 'more interactive'?

NutKase

So by this statement your saying? that DDB already knows it all and doesn't need any input?well i will have to keep in mind that your there spokesman from now on.

also a quote is not a quote when it is not word for word so don't take what i tyed out of context then reword it and say it is .

mbellot

01-03-2005, 10:48 AM

P.S
then post a frickin sign sayin the Forum is for linux rocket scientist ONLY!
and then you have noone to belittle anymore. OH BUT WAIT what fun would that be right?

If you had spent a week reading this forum you would have already realized that questions asked without an attempt to search for the answers first will generally be met with indifference or hostility.

Personally I find it refreshing.

There are a handful of forums (non-TiVo) I am a member of that have adopted like minded attitudes and its pleasant not reading 40 to 50 posts about the same problems (and solutions) every week.

It may not be the most friendly environment, but its rarely dull either.

:D

fixn278

01-03-2005, 11:05 AM

This is a stupid argument.

The fact of the matter is, the mods here time and time again have said this is a hacking/development board. It's not a support forum. There are more than enough incomplete/inaccurate/inappropriate guides out there already.

Some things just can't be bought. Just because people are willing to pay for support, doesn't mean someone is obligated to provide it. This is a hobby, not a business. The members here are not obligated to teach anything. They do it because the enjoy it.

Owning a Tivo and having a desire for features does not entitle you to it. Some things have to be worked for.

Hi8

01-03-2005, 11:18 AM

Until there is a complete brainless installer ISO like for the XBOX Auto Installer Deluxe 1.1 - There will be a need for some form of Guides -

However my experience with guides are limited as many are crippled in the sense that the author makes too many assumptions as to the expertise of the average reader, both too high or low.

It seems to me that the only "auto-installer" like iso that has surfaced has been Sleeper's - which seems to have been trashed to the point that it is discouraged from use. I'm not sure why - as that's what I used WAY-Back when I originally hacked both of my S2 DTiVos and they are both working perfectly. Sure it's not considered a clean hack today because of the development of killhdinitrd - but who cares? Should I go back and re-hack a perfectly running DTiVo just because a better hack has surfaced? I think not.

Perhaps a bounty should be offered to create such a "Auto-Installer" Perhaps a Bootble DVD - that contains all the hacks, images and documentation related to upgrading and opening up a TiVo to it's potenial.

Until there is an application that can truely "image" a hacked TiVo based on make and model- there will be a need for these so-called guides. As in fishing guides, your success is based on, how good your guide is, your ability to fish on you own, and how beliveable you can tell a great fish story.

alldeadhomiez

01-03-2005, 11:35 AM

Perhaps a bounty should be offered to create such a "Auto-Installer" Perhaps a Bootble DVD - that contains all the hacks, images and documentation related to upgrading and opening up a TiVo to it's potenial.

Most of the critical hacks are specifically licensed in such a way that this would not be possible. The reasons why this happened have been rehashed dozens of times - search on restrictive licens* .

As for "brainless" installers on Series2.0: the manual process is simple enough that, quite frankly, we have no use for people who can't do it on their own. You don't need to be a "linux rocket scientist" to hack your box, but you do need to read and have a basic understanding of what you're doing.

midspan

01-03-2005, 12:12 PM

If you had spent a week reading this forum you would have already realized that questions asked without an attempt to search for the answers first will generally be met with indifference or hostility.

:D

FWIW i've spent a month reading here before i even registered and have both my dtivo's up and running without posting any questions. PERIOD!
I was saying if thats the way this forum is then say it at the front door for the ones who are here for other reasons.

captain_video

01-03-2005, 12:16 PM

Let's try and look at this from a newbies perspective and I think you'll see that guides do have their place, at least to a certain extent. Say you've been a long time member at the TCF and you've been brainwashed into thinking that you can only do to your Tivo what they tell you can be done. Then one day you hear about dealdatabase and you decide to check it out. Of course, you didn't hear about it at the TCF since the forum trolls there censor any posts that even try to refer you here.

The newbie starts looking through the forums and starts to get an inkling about some of the cool hacks that can be done but the info is scattered all over the place and he or she has no idea where to start looking let alone knowing what to look for. The newbie then posts a question asking for help and guidance and is told to use the search feature to find what they want. All well and good if they had a clue but since they are clueless they usually need a push in the right direction.

A few enterprising newbies take the time to read and learn and are able to put a few intelligent thoughts together and actually get their Tivo hacked. They are so stoked about their accomplishment that they decide to share their success story by putting together a guide.

This is frowned upon by the more experienced members since they feel this is a development board only (a holdover from the David Bought era and an idea not necessarily shared by the owner of this board). One of the downsides to a newbie writing a guide is that they are still newbies and may not fully understand the whys and wherefores of the hacking process thay discuss in their guides, resulting in a godawful mess of confused newbie "hacker" posts. These are the types of guides that can cause problems. OTOH, there are those that actually understand what is going on and can write a clear and accurate guide that is truly educational and helpful.

I feel that there is definitely a place for guides if they are put together properly and contain the rationale as to why a step is performed and not just list a bunch of steps that the newbie reader will have no clue about. Obviously, any guide should be isolated to the newbie section since that is where they will be referenced. I look at a guide as a stepping stone to help the newbie get his foot in the door and learn how to hack a Tivo on his own. Unfortunately, there are those that are completely clueless and don't even know how to install a hard drive let alone input a command line. These are the ones that usually get into flame wars with the mods and other members and are summarily dismissed from the forums, and rightly so.

Guides should not take the place of doing your own research. You will learn far more from searching the forums and reading through every thread you can find on any given topic. But when you consider that some threads with pertinent topics contain more than 1,000 posts you can see why it is easier just to start a new thread to ask a question than to spend countless hours reading through useless posts that contain no helpful info.

My final take on guides is this: They have a place if they are written to be educational and not just allow the user to parrot a list of commands without knowing why. The author should be prepared to offer support for the guide and be able to explain what is going on and why. If you can't back it up you have no business offering it to the membership. There should be proper credits posted for the developers and pertinent links to support the various hacks described in the guide. A disclaimer should be posted that guides are the sole responsibility of the author and no support will be forthcoming from the mods or other senior members and that it should be used at your own risk. If there are errors in the guide they should be addressed to the author. If errors are not corrected within a timely manner the guide should be deleted from the forum until such time as the errors have been corrected. Any threads started that address the guide outside of the discussion thread should either be redirected to the discussion thread or deleted as they have no business outside of that thread.

Sorry if this got off-topic in any way but I thought it was pertinent to the discussion. Have I ever used guides myself? Yes, but mainly as a reference and not as gospel. I think of most guides as a roadmap and I try to understand what's going on with them before I blindly follow the instructions. If I see a process that I don't understand then I research it to see why it is there and what it's doing. If I think there's a problem with it then I'll let the author know. I've used guides to help me get caught up with certain hacks that I may not have followed closely during their initial development stages.

BTW, Happy New Year to everyone here at DDB. I look forward to another year of fun with my Tivos.

midspan

01-03-2005, 12:56 PM

Captain Video

That was nicely said and was my point exactly , i am just not the best at
typing, as NutKase was sooo quick to jump on.
Call them newbie essays or whatever, in the intrest of development even if one out of 100 newbie guides/essays gave one new angle or way of doing things that tested proof positive , would that not be proggress?
and in the best intrest of development.

put them all in a thread titled: newbie success storys or something.

alldeadhomiez

01-03-2005, 12:57 PM

This is frowned upon by the more experienced members since they feel this is a development board only

DDB is a hacking board. There is no expectation that members here will be developers....

Unfortunately, there are those that are completely clueless and don't even know how to install a hard drive let alone input a command line. These are the ones that usually get into flame wars with the mods and other members and are summarily dismissed from the forums, and rightly so.

...but this isn't TCF, either. There is not a lot of hand-holding, nor should there be. Although most of the "completely clueless" people here don't get into flamewars or start trouble, they also aren't worth the support burden as they are highly unlikely to ever contribute anything back to the community.

In summary:

If you want to be spoon-fed advice on how to use 3yo hacks on 2yo hardware, hang out at TCF. They have a veritable army of people who will help you out without asking you to read or search.

If you want to learn how things work and use (or create) bleeding edge developments, hang out at DDB, and be prepared to do your own research.

captain_video

01-03-2005, 02:26 PM

ADH, I'm in complete agreement with what you're saying. I never subscribed to the idea that anyone here should be spoonfed. It's just that some members need to be pointed in the right direction mainly because they have no idea where to get started. Some require more help than others but ultimately everyone needs to learn how to fend for themselves when it comes to hacking their Tivos. I don't think anyone should rely only on guides to help them hack a Tivo. They should be used as teaching aides to help educate and not used as a crutch to get by on.

It is true that the "clueless" are not usually the ones that start the flame wars. That usually comes about when someone tries to discuss taboo topics or can't take any constructive criticism. The support burdon you speak of is going to be there no matter what, IMO. However, if someone decides to write a "guide" then they should be expected to provide sole support and not burden the membership.

Perhaps I was a bit too broad in my statement that the more experienced members feel that this is a development board. That statement should have been limited to a small minority of the membership, many of whom are no longer here.

BTW, I commend you on providing some organization in locating the newbie guides and other links. Now if we can just get the newbies to actually look at the stickys before posting there would be a lot less clutter. ;)

JohnSorTivo

01-03-2005, 02:42 PM

DDB is a hacking board. There is no expectation that members here will be developers....Though, I suspect in most cases, the two are one in the same. Hacker = Developer, at least to some degree, and that with either skill set, the requirement for a hand holding, step-by-step guide is not needed.

mbellot

01-03-2005, 03:09 PM

Though, I suspect in most cases, the two are one in the same. Hacker = Developer, at least to some degree, and that with either skill set, the requirement for a hand holding, step-by-step guide is not needed.

I agree completely. I know very little about TiVo (only had mine a couple months) and I know enough linux to be really dangerous (in a bad way). But I've been using PC's since the early 80's (anyone remember the TI-99/4a or the Vic20?) so I'm not afraid of a command line. I also know (being an engineer) that if you're going to do something correctly you need to UNDERSTAND what you are doing. Sometimes that means (shudder) actually learning about the subject at hand instead of obtaining "instant gratification".

To me it simply seems that (most) of the people on DDB are more technically more capable (comfortable?) in the procedures being discussed and there is no interest in answering questions about double lines in a telnet session, or why pppd *seems* to be working but won't connect.

Those problems (and countless others) have been resolved, there are new problems to figure out.

Guides are useful as a general roadmap (I used them to perform most of the hacks I have on my TiVo), but in most cases they are lacking. You need to take the time to understand what you are doing, not simply regurgitate someone else's instructions.

NutKase

01-03-2005, 06:16 PM

PlainBill

01-03-2005, 08:09 PM

What's odd is that I know without a doubt that the

'Because I didn't want to learn the basics before I started'

category should be packed full. I've been talking to these people for more than 2 years. :)

Don't believe it? Search for 'nkinfo'.

NutKase

What makes you think those people ever went past reading the answer to their question in the Newbie forum? I see the question every once in a while. "I hacked my tivo a while ago using a cd. Now nothing works. How do I fix it?"

PlainBill

captain_video

01-04-2005, 09:14 AM

Therein lies the rub. Unfortunately, there is an overwhelming number of wannabe hackers looking for the instant gratification without doing the work. As indicated, the newbies forum is overflowing with questions from those that followed some sort of guide to do the initial hacks but are totally lost when it comes to fixing their Tivo when it breaks. These people get little or no sympathy for their lack of effort and rightly so, IMHO. They take a guide and use it as gospel without ever learning what they are doing with it. I think this is the very reason that so many are opposed to the creation of guides in the first place. When taken out of context they can cause more problems than they fix. We're always going to be faced with that Catch22.

NutKase

01-04-2005, 10:27 AM

Therein lies the rub. Unfortunately, there is an overwhelming number of wannabe hackers looking for the instant gratification without doing the work.

This can be made to be NOT our problem.

They take a guide and use it as gospel without ever learning what they are doing with it. I think this is the very reason that so many are opposed to the creation of guides in the first place. When taken out of context they can cause more problems than they fix. We're always going to be faced with that Catch22.

Not if these guides are stomped out with a vengence.

NutKase

ttabbal

01-04-2005, 12:05 PM

This can be made to be NOT our problem.

True. You can specificly state that end-user bitching without reading won't be tollerated. There will always be some people doing it though, making the moderator's life annoying.

Not if these guides are stomped out with a vengence.

Again, true. But it would be nice to have a good, clean, list of things that are still usefull as a sticky in the newbie and hacking forums. Kind of like the guide list in the newbie forum, but only with the modern hacks. Drop sleeper and such, maybe even a list of what NOT to do. Give people a place to start that they know won't be filled with useless crap. No guides though, just a list of thread links that have modern, usefull info on hacking and the files one needs to get to do it. Like the table at the top of HUGE's RID+4.x quide. Just a list of DDB thread links, then stomp out the guides if you like. It might also be nice to add a link to a "Linux for Dummies" type site for info on ls, cp, mv and other Linux commands. Yes, they can find it with Google, but we're dealing with people that are following guides here.

I think most of the problem that leads to the guides is that so much of the info is outdated and it's hard for a newbie to know which threads to look at. If we had a post that said something like "for 4.x on RID read the following threads: " and listed only the most recent threads, it would probably help the situation. It would have to be kept up to date though, or it's useless and we're back to where we started.

There is also the fact that people want extraction and can't talk about it on TCF. Yet they can't ask newbie questions on DDB. So where can we send them? Perhaps just the newbie forum here? Or is there another place you preffer to send them? Even if it's just the newbie forum, the big time hackers can avoid it if they like and the rest of us can help the newbies.

NutKase

01-04-2005, 12:31 PM

There is also the fact that people want extraction and can't talk about it on TCF. Yet they can't ask newbie questions on DDB.

I disagree. I think they can ask newbie questions (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40456) all they want. I respond more helpfully if the poster demonstrates that they've worked, searched, and maybe learned a little on their own as linked.

As for the others, I either don't answer the others or give them a short primer on their responsibilities here...

1. Learn to search
2. Search
3. Learn to read
4. Read
5. When they really have a problem, form a coherent question
6. Post the question in a thread already started for their issue or a similar issue
7. Start a new thread if necessary

Selecting my response from this list as I, not they, think is appropriate.

A 'disclaimer' that I've searched for hours/days/weeks but 'Can someone tell me where to find the latest TivoWebPlus' (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40463) turns me into their own personal 'Noogle.com'

I think the 'delete stupid question whose answer can be easily found' option should be used liberally and w/out a reason given.

So where can we send them? Perhaps just the newbie forum here? Or is there another place you preffer to send them? Even if it's just the newbie forum, the big time hackers can avoid it if they like and the rest of us can help the newbies.

The 'rest of us' answering their questions is the drug that keeps these type of questions flowing.

It doesn't matter what I want. I don't control anything here.

Just talking.

NutKase

captain_video

01-04-2005, 03:09 PM

1. Learn to search
2. Search
3. Learn to read
4. Read
5. When the really have a problem, form a coherent question
6. Post the question in a thread already started for their issue or a similar issue
7. Start a new thread if necessary
While I agree with this list in principle it seems that in reality the order in which these events occur tends to get reversed in many cases. There is one important item that is missing from the list and that is to learn what to search for. Everyone here knows how disjointed the info is and how hard it is to find unless you already know where to look and what to look for.

I do like the notion of providing a list of links rather than a step-by-step guide. This provides the newbie with some direction but still requires that they do a bit of reading and research without taking them blindly by the hand. I think these types of "guides" are what should be endorsed here rather than a monkey see, monkey do set of instructions.

One of the major shortcomings of any guide is that it quickly becomes outdated in this hobby. I'm constantly amazed at how many are still using tivoscripts as the primary method of hacking their S2 Tivo. Problem is there are so many different hacks and add-ons that it's hard to know what is current unless you follow the forums with a fine toothcomb. I'd really love to see someone put together a timeline with a list of all hacks, past, present, and future, that would provide some insight as to what is still relevent and what is no longer being used.

jayazusa

01-04-2005, 04:58 PM

Let me first say I appricaiate all the help and support that you all have given throughout the forums It is invaluable. If I post stupid things it is beacue I have read thread after thread saying do it this way or do it that way some contredicting each other. So as a reletive newbe it can be frustrating but you come to look at posts by seasoned hackers and take those as gospel and the others fall by the way side.

Thant all being said I started hacking using the sleeper hack and I thought this is great, but then realized I was fixing this and that to make it work. since then I have read more and redone both of my DTivo's using huge's guide. I think it is clear and consise but I do want to understand it better. Finding the tools and appropiate downloads are often difficult but I am weeding thru it. I have dusted off my unix and redhat books to understand the scripting better and the commands. What I can't find in this forum I research in google. I have read "Hacking the Tivo" to get a better understanding but things like RID MIPS and other terms were not clear originally.

To wrap up as a newbe I bow to you all and appriciate all the work you have put into this forum. I do agree if there were one place where newbies could go to get and good start and a good understanding that would make there lifes better. I think this forum is great and you all are great contributors, and if I have asked you all stupid questions as a newbie I do appoligize. "But as they say there are no stupid questons just stupid people." Keep up the great work.

Jay

bodosom

01-07-2005, 03:00 AM

Not that it matters but I have a s-a S1 an s-a S2 and an S2 DTiVo. They're all on the network. This is both because of and despite DDB. The problem isn't intrinsic to guides it's bad information both in guides and in (generally dated) threads. Given that I fiddle with computers all the time I'd prefer a glossary and some man pages. A conceptual outline over a cookbook.

Of course none of this would address bad guides, confusing threads, conflicting experts, poor search capabilities or the fundamental need to know what you're looking for before you can find it.

And of course it won't keep people who don't administer Linux systems let alone understand computers from asking annoying questions after travelling well down the road of mistaken assumption.

All that said I very much appreciate the enormouse amount of work that's been done by those so inclined.

Haderak

01-10-2005, 04:42 PM

I used TivoScripts but after lots of readingnad researching. I made a "guide" that explained the process I went through. The guide was mostly for myself so I could refer back to something as I did the process. I went through the process countless times, with and without TivoScripts.

Here is why I used a guide:

1. Lack of organization with the various hacks and supporting documentation.
2. Its how I learn. I need to have some hands on experience to be able to put all the documentation into perspective. A guide allowed me to do that. See parts of the process, see what works and what doesn't and then puts all the information I may read into a better context.

Here is what I would like to see:

1. Detailed information in an organized fashion for hacking your Tivo in a medium that can be updated to accomodate the fast changing nature of DDB and its information.
2. Stickies that separate the actual information from the 20-40 pages of support that follow it. Useful information often gets buried so deep in threads that its easy to miss, even when you know the information is in that thread.

Here is what I am doing:

1. Creating a detailed document for hacking the HR10-250. A combination of steps and procedures, why, and references back to where the original information/contributor originated.
2. The steps followed with the actuall commands.

Essentially user documentation. There is no reason not to include actual commands, its when commands have no context that problems occur. Plus its mostly for myself. I have a limited window of time to hack my HR10-250 since I have to do it while my wife isn't using it.

captainjrl

01-12-2005, 06:41 PM

I answered:

"Because information here is too disorganized (I'd read a lengthy FAQ if you had one)"

I have been slapped in the face with the "search and read" posts and I don't take it personally. I have come to understand that this board works in the following way:

If you want help from specific people you play by their individual rules.

Some people on here are more willing to hand hold than others. If I don't like the way certain people respond to my questions, I ignore their responses.

However I have spent several months, been a member since 8/31/04, reading and searching and still have not been able to successfully acomplish the hacks I want to do. Most of that because of a lack of a source for a reliable image without paying PTVupgrade, but some of it in part to not being able to find reliable and organized information.

If given the choice I would definiely use a guide but only one with explinations as to why I am doing certain steps. So I can understand what I am doing.

I have no Linux experience, nor do I want to learn it while trying to hack my DTivo. Another time and day will be used to learn that info.

All that I want to be able to do is add some functionality to my Tivo.

Disagree with me if you want, I'll have no ill will. This is just my opinion on the subject.

ronnythunder

01-12-2005, 06:49 PM

captainjrl, well said. however, i believe it was jjbliss who had this excellent explanation earlier in this thread (iirc):

this site is like culinary school: we teach people how to cook. we *don't* give recipes. if you go to culinary school looking for recipes, you'll be sadly disappointed. they might even give you some pointers on where to look (cookbooks, tv shows etc.), but the school exists to teach the mechanics of cooking.

that's about it in a nutshell. the fact that some people *do* contribute recipes here is nice, but that's not our raison d'être.

ronny

captainjrl

01-12-2005, 08:12 PM

ronnythunder, I can understand and appreciate those feelings. Maybe a better forum search tool (I am not sure how exactly to do this). I feel that my search capabilities are up to par (I can use google to find almost anything I am looking for). The search on here seems to either give me no results or so broad a spectrum of results that it is horrible to sort through. Either that or a more organized way to find things (i.e. some more stickies or something else).

mbellot

01-12-2005, 10:29 PM

If given the choice I would definiely use a guide but only one with explinations as to why I am doing certain steps. So I can understand what I am doing.

...

I have no Linux experience, nor do I want to learn it while trying to hack my DTivo. Another time and day will be used to learn that info.

All that I want to be able to do is add some functionality to my Tivo.

Those two statements are contradictory (at least when it comes to hacking Tivo).

You really need to learn at least SOME linux if you want to be able to understand what you are doing.

A hint about searching - Go advanced and use the "by posts" instead of "by threads" option. It helps focus in, much more Google-like.

:D

captainjrl

01-13-2005, 02:50 PM

Those two statements are contradictory (at least when it comes to hacking Tivo).

You really need to learn at least SOME linux if you want to be able to understand what you are doing.

I think I may have mistated something. I do not want to have to learn to be a Linux system admin in order to hack my Tivo. I have a basic workign knowledge of some command line stuff from the DOS days and understand some basic Linux. I do understand that I will have to have some knowledge, I just don't want to have to be able to write a book on it before I can try to hack my Tivo.

alldeadhomiez

01-13-2005, 03:35 PM

I think I may have mistated something. I do not want to have to learn to be a Linux system admin in order to hack my Tivo. I have a basic workign knowledge of some command line stuff from the DOS days and understand some basic Linux. I do understand that I will have to have some knowledge, I just don't want to have to be able to write a book on it before I can try to hack my Tivo.

I won't comment on your assessment of the requisite knowledge level to participate here, but you need to be aware that your opinion about how much you should or should not need to learn is completely irrelevant. Unless, of course, you are one of the people who is developing hacks.

Stevecan

01-14-2005, 12:49 AM

I am still lost, I've read, reread and rereread every wonderful and worthless post I've found here. The good nuggets of information are interspersed so deeply among the chaff that it would take a metal detector hooked up to a Cray supercomputer to make sense of most of it.

I am trying to add bash and from there basic mods tivowebplus, mfs_ftp, killhdinitrd, etc.

I would rather do the steps myself, but I have to know the steps. I can't read here and make notes on how to do things because every line of every "guide" I've seen relys on the lines above and below for functionality.

Most are unrelated to what I want to do, but if I want to find out how to get a bash prompt on a Dtivo sw 3.1.1e I have to read 400 pages of why doesn't the -f 9999 function work for this, why don't my previous recordings work when I just the no_scramble hack etc.

I'm SWIMMING in bad, loosely related, unreliable, outdated, etc. info.

Just look at the 4.0x + RID sticky thread (36 pages long, with probably 2-3 pages of useful info). I can't see ANYONE learning by reading 30-34 pages of waste.

This isn't really a complaint, because I couldn't do better myself, just showing why most people just want a guide. We are dead from trying to find a way to do ONE little change like enabling bash prompt.

Or finding out if one could test out a serial cable they made by hooking it up to one's unhacked Dtivo and seeing if it communicates at all.

Also if one can just hack some rc.author files to enable bash without having to killhdinitrd a kernel on a RID box.

The farthest I've gotten so far is to backup my Tivo Drive, and restore it to a new drive. Mostly because there was a Good GUIDE to do that, and full documentation on MFS_Tools 2.0, complete with switches and what they are for.

I've been in my Nth hour of reading here, with nothing to show for it but a bunch of ideas and a bunch of unlisted steps to take to get where I want (eventually a 4.01b killhdinitrd'd 3.1.1c (or e if possible) kernel'd drive for folders and MRV and BASH and Tivowebplus. Jeeze I know there are hundreds of "guides" out there, but as was stated earlier I don't want a guide without reasons. I would love a list of switch and full documentation for every patch and program, but even that wouldn't guarantee a perfect install.

I'm still hoping for a sleeper.iso style installer (but with transparent steps that one could see working, and interactively install/don't install certain mods.

OK, so that was a rant...... I'm even more upset now because I've just added to the chaff on this site, without giving any good info (not that one could find it thru all the other chaff anyway).

Steven L.

Worn-out-linux-burn'd-out-generally-feeling-inadequate-techie-just-trying-to-get-folders-network-tivowebplus-bash-*****

kandu

01-24-2005, 04:59 PM

First, I'd like to pay homage to the experienced people that contribute to these forums, and I agree that learning the "why" of hacking is important. As a newbie, I've been reading just about every post for the past week and I'm about to start the upgrade/modification process.

In the process of researching, I noticed a huge problem. A lot of newbies are asking for specific guides for hacking thier specific Tivo, and in response they get essentially the same answer "figure it out." Sometimes this is polite, other times RTFM (Read The F#%king Manual) seems to be the implied message.
Additionally, a lot of time and energy seems to be wasted arguing about who's right; the person that wants the quick fix vs. the puritans that think understanding teh process is the most important thing.

I would like to offer a suggestion to the Moderators of the forum.

Perhaps, a few of the more experienced among the forums could submit basic "Step-by-Step How-To's" for the different Tivo models they have mastered. Perhaps stopping at the point where the system is on the a network.

I think the benefit of this would be to eliminate the requests for existing guides, and when a newbie attempts the guided method and has problems; the questions being asked will be more educated and specific. Additionally, as a newbie, there is a lot of information overload and that can make the first steps of the process pretty intimidating.

In summary, I'd like to compare the process to reading... When we first learned to read, the teachers didn't throw a copy of Great Expectations on our desks and tell us to read it. They started by teaching us our ABC's. They provided very specific guidance even while we read our first "See Spot Run" book. I think it would be nice to see that kind of support for newbies in this forum.

I realize, I'm a newbie and this post may seem skewed in favor of newbies, but I think the whole community benfits when more experienced people provide more specific guidance (atleast in the beginning).

I welcome other veiws on this topic ,but please avoid flamming!!!

Thanks

Kandu

alldeadhomiez

01-24-2005, 05:33 PM

Merged the last post into the most recent "guides debate" thread.

For more information on why your suggestions are unworkable, search for guide* in General TiVo Discussions and Sewer.

jayazusa

01-24-2005, 08:24 PM

bnm81002

01-24-2005, 09:07 PM

I was wondering if guides include the books that are published on the topic? I was looking at "Hacking the Tivo Second Edition" it looks like a well written and somewhat comprehensive guide to tivo hacking. I realize anything that hasn't been published online this week is out of date when it comes to this but I did like the fact that not only did it tell you what to do but it explaned why you were doing things. That all being said What I have come to understand is even all the reading books forums and web, this is still a very trial and error type hobby.

Thank's to all who's threads I have followed and those who have posted assistance to my problems.

Jay

nope it doesn't only what files are needed for the guide in use, I'm in the process of reading that book now, it is really an informative book about Tivo and other things involved with Tivo like Directv and their DTivo DVR, I think if all newbies read RECOMMENDED books like the one that you mentioned and Linux books detailing basic Linux commands, I guarantee that the questions would be alot less annoying to the senior members of this forum because there would be at least more knowledge in terms of Linux commands and the basic hacks-what they are, what they do, I know there will always be new hacks so books will be outdated but at least you have the basic knowledge in doing the hacks and if so desired to do the new hacks such as the 4.x one, like the saying "you learn something new every day" :)

rc3105

01-24-2005, 09:53 PM

What I have come to understand is even all the reading books forums and web, this is still a very trial and error type hobby.

it is??? :confused:

maybe if you're one of the guys staring at dissasembly trying to figure out how how to change the way things work (nosco, parental controls, superpatch, <insert insanely great idea here>) porting utils from other *nix platforms (usb backports, busybox, mencoder) or noodling with the default values in mfs... testing those sorts of things might require some trial and error

merely installing this stuff is not rocket science :rolleyes:

MoneyMark

01-25-2005, 11:11 PM

I think this debate is really stemming from the fact that many of the tivo hack developers feel their time and effort is being exploited by those looking for instant gratification.

The fact is DDB has a reputation in the tivo community for containing not only extensive information, but the source of that information. This is going to draw new people. There really is no way around it. Knowing that there will always be people looking for a quick fix we really need a way to encourage learning here. Some people will not want to learn and we need to understand that.

There are a few ways you can decide to handle that situation. First you could remove all of the guide, ignore posts you deem ignorant, and stick you nose into the air, or a well detailed guide could be written. This guide could consist of two main sections, quick and dirty, or for the more technically inclined, detailed explanations.

The reason I support guides, written by those with a real understanding, is that I believe this would lower the amount of stupid questions in the forum. When I was in college, the amount of questions I had for my professor was almost always directly related to how well the textbook was written. I would read the textbook and when I found an area that was deficient, I asked my professor a question. The same logic applies here.

Personally, I read posts of this site for a long time before attempting to hack my tivo, but it wasn't until I started actually playing with it, that I started to learn. People need to know that they aren't going to destroy their tivo before they get into the highly technical information.

We have all been guided in our lives to some respect. When your mother popped you out she didn't tell you wipe your own ass, she had to wipe it for you. We all have had our asses wiped by someone else; we all needed guidance at one point in our lives, but it was these people who truly taught us how to learn.

Savage

02-24-2005, 11:42 PM

This isn't posted to anyone, but to the board, so don't take personal offense. I apologize it came out long, but I have proofed it a few times and think that it is good in its entirety. I would request that you don't read any more of it if you aren't willing to read it twice before you reply. Otherwise you are wasting our time.

---------

I'm very much in to four wheeling my Jeep and I have been on another board, Pirate4x4.com, for years. The same problem exists there. You have people who began modifying their heeps pretty drastically five to ten years ago. When they started using the site they were all trying to figure out the basics of how to do an SOA on a YJ. Today, that is considered pre-school and those old timers get pissed if someone new to the sport asks about it. They yell "SEARCH NEWBIE FAWKER!"

I have spent a few months just reading around here. I can tell you that it's hard just to learn the code words and definitions of RID or uma6 and how they cross reference to all the models. Every time I try to start over and get into one of these "You should have read thread XYZ." I end up frustrated hours and days later. Maybe I'm trying too hard to understand it too well. Okay, so thread XYZ was started three months ago and has over 400 posts. Just when I start to get in to the first few posts it references another thread ABC. Well thread ABC was written one year ago and has over 400 posts. So let's start reading that before continuing on in XYZ. Just a little into thread ABC it references thread 123. Thread 123 is three years old and everyone says to ignore everything in it, except posts 34, 87, 121, and 209. Of course those posts also reference five other threads. I know that I know more than when I started, I'm just not sure if I know what I need to know to start.

This all ends up being no better than the guides themselves. You cannot tell me that you actually expect someone to read every post on here from the very first day one post to the most current, especially when you have a three year old thread that just got posted to last week. Talk about screwing up your research. Yes, it would give them a full history of how DDB has hacked the TiVo over the years, but what a waste of time. Is it important for me to know the hex position of the code that was used to create killhdinitrd and compromise the kernel? No. Now do I need to know what the kernel is and its importance? Yes, and I need to know why I'm compromising it. After all I am "hacking" the TiVo.

Old threads that are no longer valid must be deleted, period. Sleeper is bad, fine, delete it. But you say that thread had good information. Fine, pull it out to a new thread and then delete the old one. If a good informational thread gets bad newbie posts, delete them. If they make a new thread that is answered in another thread, reply and then lock the thread. You could even move it to another forum. If a bad guide pops up, delete it. It will keep the valuable information valuable and accessible. Also, stop responding to crap if you don't have the power to clean it. Report it to the moderator and make sure they fix it. That really helps cut down on the clutter since that's what seventy percent of the threads seem to be. If that can't be done then it sounds like you need better, or more, moderators to keep the filth out and clean up what you have. A good moderator(s) should be able to easily resolve these things.

I understand that there is ego and pride, which aren't bad things, but the bashing needs to stop. I agree that you have to draw the line somewhere and I think you should use the forum topics to do that. If it's newbie, let them post newbie stuff. If you want to correct them and let them know they are going down the wrong path, do so. But show them the right path, don't just yell at them, "It's over there somewhere." A great teacher knows how much to help and when to let the student skin their knee, but they won't let them kill themselves. If you aren't a great teacher, don't try, you just make it worse and aren't any better for it.

Maybe you need a guide forum and moderator(s). Someone who could make one, or a few, uber-DDB guide(s) and maintains it(them). When the moderator is no longer able to maintain it, the torch is passed to someone who will step up. If the guide moderator chooses not to keep it current, nuke it and them. Something like a technical writer. That way a developer could make the killhdinitrd utility and the moderator/writer could make sure it gets documented and merged into the uber-Guide(s) and moved out of development and into the mainstream. After all isn't this what you are angry at guides for? Not being up to date and what you feel is technically inaccurate? If the guides were technically accurate and kept up to date you wouldn't complain. Or is there more to it then that?

fixn278

02-24-2005, 11:59 PM

This isn't posted to anyone...

...Or is there more to it then that?

Please don't waste anyone else's time with your posts. Reading your response to a post that has been dead for a month has taken a full minute of my time that I will never get back.

Read this post from a board administrator. Just because you want the board to be a teaching board doesn't mean is should be or will ever be.

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202073&postcount=4

Savage

02-25-2005, 04:11 AM

From the fourth post in this very same thread you linked to it quotes:

"...DDB is the classroom.

If someone is interested in participating in this forum, in this classroom, they are welcome to come in and learn..."

However you stated just prior to that link:

"Just because you want the board to be a teaching board doesn't mean is should be or will ever be."

You put forth no constructive criticism or point-counterpoint arguments as to how my suggestions don't meet your needs. You attempted to make a blanket rebuttal that isn't close to the discussion that I or JJBliss put forward. I would be interested in your specific viewpoints as to how my specific recommendations are insufficient.

Also in the post you linked to:

"..until such time that they are interested in learning how to hack, and how/why things work..."

I'm very interested in giving back to the community as I believe I can once I get started. I have over twenty years of programming experience as well as owning an Internet Provider running on Linux and a great deal of other backgrounds that could help this community. I however am not familiar with the peculiarites of the TiVo and have no interest in wasting my time and efforts on development of software, utilities and methods this community no longer wishes to pursue or support. To this end I'm trying to make sure I'm current, but the garbage in the way makes it difficult and your last post does not help at all. I made constructive criticisms and recommendations to help this community grow and bring in others like me. I would request that you show me the same courtesy and respect that I attempted to give in my post.

alldeadhomiez

02-25-2005, 11:12 AM

Maybe you need a guide forum and moderator(s). Someone who could make one, or a few, uber-DDB guide(s) and maintains it(them). When the moderator is no longer able to maintain it, the torch is passed to someone who will step up. If the guide moderator chooses not to keep it current, nuke it and them. Something like a technical writer.

I'm all for it, but I haven't seen any clueful volunteers yet (and our payroll is $0). So far, the people who have been willing to do the research and write things up have opted to publish their work in dead tree form.

BTW: the word we want to use is "reference," not "guide." Good, maintainable documentation teaches people the fundamental concepts and steps, instead of giving them a list of commands to blindly type.

Are you up for the job?

Savage

02-26-2005, 03:15 AM

I like "reference". It implies a work of knowledge that is something more than the mundane every day and is held to a higher standard or quality. Much like a reference piece of audio equipment or a medical reference.

I would be very interested in seeing if I could prototype this method of documentation here. The opportunity to test and see if my theories could handle the punishment of reality. A simple glossary or dictionary of terms created by TiVo, DDB or the TiVo "hacking" community in general should be a simple test. Not a complex or entirely difficult test, but something to get started. The true test of time will came after multiple - more challenging - reference works are created, maintained and hold value after four to six months while new development goes on around it.

Let me see about a format and style that would likely work best within this board and its software. I have already run up against the 5000 character post limit on my first long-winded post. Possibly....every reference would be a thread and every chapter a post.

mdknight

03-11-2005, 03:55 PM

mrblack51

03-11-2005, 06:52 PM

I for one WANT to learn. However I have trouble finding the starting point. Is there a book on learning basics that I can find that will bring me up to speed on the simple commands that I can then use for the harder ones. I find everything in here with monte or get a bash prompt or telenet to and I would like to find an updated resource to get the simple things. The things that everyone assumes we all know. Even the newbie thread assumes we know certain things. How about a Total newbie thread that starts people off?

there are three major books out there which offer some insight into general tivo hacking topics. if you search this board, you will find the reviews i did for each. However, none of the books cover prom hacking as i recall, nor do they cover killhdinitrd. as such, while they provide great info, they do not include the most relavent hacking methods available. they are good as well because some cover ultra basics like opening the case and such.

as for "getting the simple things" - there are two extremes mostly: "guides" which are really just lists of commands to blindly type and hope it works, and threads with somewhat technical information. I recommend reading the relavent threads, then doing searches here or on google to figure out anything that you dont understand. if you ask polite intelligent questions and have searched (and esp. if you cite the threads/posts you looked at), you should get good responses.