eBay violators

[rc3105]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5742005283

gberlam (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/member.php?u=7923), got anything to say for yourself?

you do know it's illegal to sell uma6fix?

[alldeadhomiez]

Sure would suck to lose your business (http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/CorpSearchSummary.asp?ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=043584380) over a few silly auctions.

I hope for this guy's sake it was an honest mistake, and not a pattern of willful copyright infringement. Time will tell.

[AhoyMatey]

I don't see gberlam as a donor for the 4.x on RID patch either. And I assume that the system uses a killhdinitrd kernel...

[snowman]

I'm hoping someone has PM'd him as well, so he has a chance to read the message. I'd hate to have a public lynching and him not be here to enjoy it.

[AlphaWolf]

It's probable that he doesn't read this forum anymore, but a response from him isn't required anyways. I would file suit immediately, I could easily see you getting more from him than what he actually sold that tivo for, much much much more.

[rc3105]

he responded through the ebay system, says he used the guide on HUGE's personal site which links back here for files

guess he didn't read the not so fine print

got plenty right now to file for summary judgement, if he opts to buy a license after the fact the EFF will get a modest donation, otherwise things get ugly

[SledgeHammer]

You are going to sue the guy for selling a KillInitRd'ed Tivo on eBay? :rolleyes: Good luck with that. Isn't KillInitRd a violation of the DMCA to begin with since its circumventing security? Not to mention a violation of the Tivo / DirecTV license agreements? Besides, at $118, he is hardly selling your software, but rather the box itself. If I have a PC with software on it, I am not allowed to sell my PC without formatting the hard drive?

P.S. Just because someone agrees to a license agreement or contract and later violates a portion of it, doesn't mean you can sue them. Not everything somebody randomly writes up is legally enforcable.

P.S.S. Just for the sake of argument... how much are you asking for a license?

[AlphaWolf]

You are going to sue the guy for selling a KillInitRd'ed Tivo on eBay?

They can easily do that, regardless of the DMCA. Copyright protections don't ask whether or not the material being pirated does something that is legal to begin with. Whether or not it is legal is up for debate, however that will not be looked at here if this is taken to court.

P.S. Just because someone agrees to a license agreement or contract and later violates a portion of it, doesn't mean you can sue them. Not everything somebody randomly writes up is legally enforcable.

It doesn't matter, when you publish anything anywhere on the internet, by law it is automatic that nobody is just allowed to arbitrarily redistribute it without the permission of the author. Doing otherwise is a violation of copyright law, and is very much subject to restitution of the author so desires.

Go look up the differences between freeware and public domain software.

Not only that but this isn't just killhdinitrd that we are dealing with, this is also the 4.x on RID framework.

[rc3105]

what is this slashdot? read the darn auction listing! AhoyMatey assumed the guy was using killhdinitrd, but there's nothing to indicate that

only reason a used dvr80 went higher than a new one is that it was advertised including HMO. there's a 12k signature petition on TCF of folks that want HMO on dtivo, ddb members ponied up $5k, these features are definatly in high demand

filing fee's are only about $60, punative damages get steep quick and the guy's allready admitted to advertising uma6fix for sale in violation of copyright, why wouldn't we protect our rights? it's a slam dunk


*per-unit licensing for ebay distribution is $75 because the authors really don't want it being sold that way

[snowman]

I'd like to see the court papers. I honestly don't believe there's any enforcement to be had through the court system. I ain't stupid enough to let my hind end swing in the wind to test the theory though. I'm curious to see how this truly pans out.

[AlphaWolf]

I honestly don't believe there's any enforcement to be had through the court system.

I've seen enforcement of things seemingly far more trivial. We are serious about this though, the ebay issue is a real problem for ddb.

[alldeadhomiez]

I honestly don't believe there's any enforcement to be had through the court system.

Well, if the courts can't enforce copyright laws, maybe you should pass the bar and then start getting these guys released:

http://www.cybercrime.gov/StocktonSent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/sankusSent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/fitzgeraldSent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/tobolskySent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/rothbergSent_pirates.htm

:rolleyes:

[rc3105]

filing fees aren't much, lot more expensive to get a lawyer on retainer and respond

*course, you can allways ignore that sort of thing and end up with a default judgement against your house / business / wages - ex wife was a legal clerk, even knowing all the tricks that were coming the divorce went spectacularly badly because I just couldn't afford to spend $5k for every round of paperwork that only cost her $60 :eek:


he's indicated he didn't know there was an issue and will drop it back to 3.x + re-list

[AhoyMatey]

what is this slashdot? read the darn auction listing! AhoyMatey assumed the guy was using killhdinitrd, but there's nothing to indicate that
That's true. It was an assumption. However, if he used HUGE's guide, there's a pretty good chance that killhdinitrd was used. If he used 4.0.1b, and HUGE's guide, he probably would have installed the guide patch for 4.0.1b too. That's another one of them assumptions...

[SledgeHammer]

Well, if the courts can't enforce copyright laws, maybe you should pass the bar and then start getting these guys released:

http://www.cybercrime.gov/StocktonSent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/sankusSent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/fitzgeraldSent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/tobolskySent.htm
http://www.cybercrime.gov/rothbergSent_pirates.htm

:rolleyes:

Well, I am no lawyer, but I find all these cases irrelevant. Some are clearly in violation of the RICO laws which often carry a stiffer penalty then even murder.

But hey, I guess you managed to scare the guy into restoring/relisting, so you should be happy.

If it was me (and I have not sold any killinitrd'ed tivos or any other hacked tivos on eBay because thats a stupid business venture), I would have likely ignored your threats because it is unlikely a hacker would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight it in court.

If I ever do get and/or sell a Series 2, would I go through the trouble of reformating/reinstalling the drive? probably not.

Too bad you didn't sue the guy, I would have *LOVED* to see that happen.

[malfunct]

If it was me (and I have not sold any killinitrd'ed tivos or any other hacked tivos on eBay because thats a stupid business venture), I would have likely ignored your threats because it is unlikely a hacker would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight it in court.


Thats one thing you fail to understand out of this conversation. It costs about $60 to file the case and unless the person who is filed against pays a far more significant amount for lawyers ect they lose the case (by default if they do nothing at all). It turns out this was most likely an innocent mistake and has been corrected but hopefully the fact that it was pursued stops someone that causes this board bigger problems from attempting to do the same thing not so innocently.

[alldeadhomiez]

Well, I am no lawyer, but I find all these cases irrelevant. Some are clearly in violation of the RICO laws which often carry a stiffer penalty then even murder.

Huh? The point is that the copyright laws exist and are routinely adjudicated by the courts (both civil and criminal). The point is not that everybody selling illegal copies of software on eBay is going to be listed on cybercrime.gov with a 17-count felony indictment.

But hey, I guess you managed to scare the guy into restoring/relisting, so you should be happy.

I had no part in this enforcement action.

[SledgeHammer]

What I was trying to say was that there is a big difference with the cases you posted and this one. Some of those cases violated copyrights AND the RICO laws. If that was me, I would BEG to be convicted for a minor copyright violation rather then convicted under the RICO statutes. If you are in court for a RICO violation, I doubt you would much care about a copyright conviction. And I doubt the prosecution would be much concerned with the copyright part of the case. Those were people who had a business selling SOLEY copyrighted software. This is one single person who sold a single unit which happened to have your software on it.

I know I am rambling here... what I am trying to get across is that in these types of cases, size definitely matters. If the guy sold thousands of units with your software and had a business doing so, then we are talking.

One unit, one time? No lawyer would waste his time on the case.

Bottom line:

Are there copyright laws? Yes

Can you sue someone for violating them? Yes, you can sue someone for anything. You could sue your next door neighbor for taking a crap on a Tuesday

Will you be able to fight it in court? Doubtful. You likely don't have the funds it would take to fight it in court. Neither does the other guy. This is essentially nuclear war. Neither guy wins, and you are both out a few hundred thousand dollars depending on how far it goes. Lawyers do charge about $150/hr to $250/hr where I live you know.

So OK, lets take your scenario. I go and sell a single unit on ebay. You pay $60 to file against me. I pay a lawyer $100 or so to file a response. Now you are essentially done unless you want to continue coughing up $200/hr for the lawyer to proceed.

Now of course you can sue me for lawyer costs, but since there is essentially no to little money involved in your judgement, you would have to pay most of the lawyer costs up front as you go. Very early on, the lawyer fees would
overwhelm you.

I think one of the cases you posted, the guy got a judgement for 3k. You would waste the money, time and energy to go after someone for 1k to 3k? Most of which would go to the attorney anyways.

[alldeadhomiez]

This is one single person who sold a single unit which happened to have your software on it.

My software? Who exactly are you addressing?

Bottom line:

Are there copyright laws? Yes

Can you sue someone for violating them? Yes, you can sue someone for anything. You could sue your next door neighbor for taking a crap on a Tuesday

Will you be able to fight it in court? Doubtful. You likely don't have the funds it would take to fight it in court.

You don't need a lawyer to prosecute a case of this magnitude. And if you have several similar cases like this one, you can negotiate a "bulk rate." Think: DirecTV lawsuits. That's a profit center for the company, and the settlements are only $3500 each.

In my local courthouse, they even pass out (groan) "newbie guides" to teach laymen how to file a small claims suit.

[SledgeHammer]

My software? Who exactly are you addressing?



You don't need a lawyer to prosecute a case of this magnitude. And if you have several similar cases like this one, you can negotiate a "bulk rate." Think: DirecTV lawsuits. That's a profit center for the company, and the settlements are only $3500 each.

In my local courthouse, they even pass out (groan) "newbie guides" to teach laymen how to file a small claims suit.

LOL... how apropos. In small claims court, you would likely see even less of a judgement and have to take lots of time off from work to handle your case.

As for the DTV lawsuits, well, most people settled because they were scared shitless by a 500lb gorilla. You (ahem... sorry, the um... authors) are hardly 500lb gorillas and hardly have the financial resources of DTV. And if you followed the DTV cases closely, of the few cases that did get to court, most were tossed out on one technicality or another. Not to say they didn't win any, but they often dropped cases against people who bought one or two items and "pushed back".

If DTV sued me, would I have pushed back? probably not since winning the case would not get me anything and it would cost me a lot more then $3500 to fight it and/or loose it. I dont have that kind of money.

If the "authors" sued me for selling one unit on eBay would I fight it in small claims court? Probably yeah since it doesn't cost much and I'd probably file a counter suit while I am at it.

As we said, we can debate this til we are blue in the face. I personally think the hacks are illegal under the DTV/Tivo licenses and the DMCA. You say that doesn't matter, but if you run a crack lab, and I rob you for my crack lab, are you gonna call the cops? it happens, but it'd be pretty dumb.

Do I have a problem with hacks being illegal? Obviously not. Lots of people do illegal stuff like download music and movies.

Having a LEGAL RIGHT and having the FINANCIAL MEANS/TIME to enforce the copyright are two different things.

[alldeadhomiez]

LOL... how apropos. In small claims court, you would likely see even less of a judgement and have to take lots of time off from work to handle your case.

Small claims court can award up to $5000 in many states, and it's easier than you think.

You (ahem... sorry, the um... authors)

...and you are basing this on what information?

are hardly 500lb gorillas and hardly have the financial resources of DTV.

...and you are basing THIS on what information? Judging from your other ridiculous claims in this thread, you obviously know nothing about the authors or, by extension, their financial resources.

And if you followed the DTV cases closely, of the few cases that did get to court, most were tossed out on one technicality or another. Not to say they didn't win any, but they often dropped cases against people who bought one or two items and "pushed back".

The DirecTV cases were significantly weaker than this obvious, blatant case of copyright infringement. Yet, a cursory look at hackhu.com will show us that even weak cases based entirely on circumstantial evidence can result in large judgments:

DIRECTV obtains summary judgment against defendant Anthony Meneses for $870,000.

DIRECTV Awarded $20,000 in Damages and $27,531 in Fees in Piracy Case Against South Carolina Resident

DIRECTV vs Scott Webb - Defendant Found In Violation. Court Awards DIRECTV $134,700 Plus $69,681 In Attorney's Fees.

Summary Judgments Awarded to DIRECTV in Virginia for $2,050,000, $150,000, $200,000, and $820,000.

As we said, we can debate this til we are blue in the face. I personally think the hacks are illegal under the DTV/Tivo licenses and the DMCA. You say that doesn't matter, but if you run a crack lab, and I rob you for my crack lab, are you gonna call the cops? it happens, but it'd be pretty dumb.

And now you shift gears and claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that the legitimate, original works posted here are a) illegal, and b) not entitled to copyright protection.

Incredible.

[gberlam]

DD,
The unit has been withdrawn and the buyer has been canceled and informed. The unit will never be sold, just in case. Ebay has been emailed and alerted to the mistake. Sorry for any mistakes in this incident. FYI, there were other units being sold this way. Happy hunting. Please remove my name from this thread. This incident will not occur again.