HD TiVo with CableCard to be released in 2006

[wayner]

TiVo announced (http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=234) today that they will release an HD-TiVo with a CableCard so that those of us on digital cable can record HD content as well as digital content without having to encode. Great news, although it is disappointing that it is still over a year away.

I still don't understand why the cable companies or the hardware manufacturers like SA or Motorola don't partner with TiVo for these types of products.

[pab]

TiVo announced (http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=234) today that they will release an HD-TiVo with a CableCard so that those of us on digital cable can record HD content as well as digital content without having to encode. Great news, although it is disappointing that it is still over a year away.

TiVo made a mistake putting all their eggs in a basket with DirecTV, which is preparing to shaft them. Now, we'll actually have some alternatives.

I wonder if it's going to be based on the HR10-250 model, with ATSC tuners as well as cable tuners. Sounds like it will, hopefully.

[wayner]

TiVo made a mistake putting all their eggs in a basket with DirecTV, which is preparing to shaft them. Now, we'll actually have some alternatives.

I don't think that was by choice. Apparently they tried to strike deals with the cable companies but were unsuccessful.

[AlphaWolf]

TiVo made a mistake putting all their eggs in a basket with DirecTV, which is preparing to shaft them. Now, we'll actually have some alternatives.

I wonder if it's going to be based on the HR10-250 model, with ATSC tuners as well as cable tuners. Sounds like it will, hopefully.

It probably wont have a dual tuner configuration, at least not with cable. Remember that even with digital cable, about half of the channels are really analog. It is also possible that the cablecard will only allow a single digital tuner (it was only designed for STBless TV's.)

I don't think that was by choice. Apparently they tried to strike deals with the cable companies but were unsuccessful.

I believe that the reason for this is that cable companies are notorious for hating DVR's with a passion, too many reasons for this to list. They would actually rather you use VoD than a DVR. The main reason they even have DVR's now is because they found that they were losing a lot of their customers to satellite providers who were practically giving away DVR's, and VoD only works for a very small portion of the programming they offer, so they had to be able to compete.

[wayner]

It probably wont have a dual tuner configuration, at least not with cable. Remember that even with digital cable, about half of the channels are really analog. It is also possible that the cablecard will only allow a single digital tuner (it was only designed for STBless TV's.)

I believe that most, if not all, cable companies will be offering their complete lineup in digital. That is the already the case here in Canada with the major companies now able to offer "100% digital" lineups. Of course the channels below 75 are still available in analog so that customers without STBs can still get these channels.

I sincerely hope that the TiVo will have two cable tuners - this is a feature of the Scientific Atlanta DVRs so without this feature it will be lagging behind. It would also mean that you could not record one show and watch another.

[AlphaWolf]

I sincerely hope that the TiVo will have two cable tuners - this is a feature of the Scientific Atlanta DVRs so without this feature it will be lagging behind. It would also mean that you could not record one show and watch another.

Can the sci atlanta record two analog channels at once? If so that is probably why those are so expensive (~ $600 - $800 USD.) MPEG encoder hardware isn't cheap.

Remember though since that these tivos will be using cablecard, they are still limited to whatever spec it provides, and it may or may not allow dual tuner.

[wayner]

Can the sci atlanta record two analog channels at once? If so that is probably why those are so expensive (~ $600 - $800 USD.) MPEG encoder hardware isn't cheap.

Remember though since that these tivos will be using cablecard, they are still limited to whatever spec it provides, and it may or may not allow dual tuner.

I don't know, but there is no need for any MPEG encoding, at least not with my cable provider, as all channels are provided in digital format, with channels 2-75 being a duplication of the analog band.

[AlphaWolf]

I don't know, but there is no need for any MPEG encoding, at least not with my cable provider, as all channels are provided in digital format, with channels 2-75 being a duplication of the analog band.

Well, with the providers in the states (there may be a few exceptions but I haven't heard of any,) channels 2-75 are analog channels (along with 98, 99 and a few others,) even if you have a digital box - it is merely capable of tuning both digital and analog signals. There are no digital equivalents to these channels, and the cable provider tries to pretend that these are digital channels (they never outright say that they are digital but they do say "digital quality" which really means absolutely nothing) when it is pretty obvious that they aren't digital at all. You can see the difference between these channels and the digital channels by looking for artefacts common in all analog signals regardless of their source - e.g. slight snowing, etc. To some it isn't obvious at all, but if you are used to it you can spot it out pretty easily.

BTW, do they have cablecard in canada? It was federally mandated by the FCC that all cable providers in the states had to make it available by june 1st of 2004, but no such mandate existed in canada that I know of. It would be entirely at the cable co's discretion in canada as to whether or not they provide cablecards. (from what I can tell, shaw and rogers do not offer it, seems ATI is trying to pressure them to for one of their AIW cards though) From what I understand though, most cable companies do not like cablecard for more reasons than just the fact that theres no two way communications, so it is likely that they wont add it.

[malfunct]

Well, with the providers in the states (there may be a few exceptions but I haven't heard of any,) channels 2-75 are analog channels (along with 98, 99 and a few others,) even if you have a digital box - it is merely capable of tuning both digital and analog signals. There are no digital equivalents to these channels, and the cable provider tries to pretend that these are digital channels (they never outright say that they are digital but they do say "digital quality" which really means absolutely nothing) when it is pretty obvious that they aren't digital at all. You can see the difference between these channels and the digital channels by looking for artefacts common in all analog signals regardless of their source - e.g. slight snowing, etc. To some it isn't obvious at all, but if you are used to it you can spot it out pretty easily.

I thought sure that comcast was moving to duplicating the channels below 99 that were not digital. I know they hadn't when I looked earlier but now that they say in my area that all channels are available in HD you would think they would all have to be digital. I guess your milage may vary :)

[wayner]

BTW, do they have cablecard in canada? It was federally mandated by the FCC that all cable providers in the states had to make it available by june 1st of 2004, but no such mandate existed in canada that I know of. It would be entirely at the cable co's discretion in canada as to whether or not they provide cablecards. (from what I can tell, shaw and rogers do not offer it, seems ATI is trying to pressure them to for one of their AIW cards though) From what I understand though, most cable companies do not like cablecard for more reasons than just the fact that theres no two way communications, so it is likely that they wont add it.Rogers duplicated all of their analog channels in digital space a few months ago to counter advertising from the sat companies who said that "we are 100% digital and cable isn't". The analog channels have been remapped to the 800s so you can watch the digital version of channel 2 and the analog on 802. If you don't have an STB the analog channel still shows up on 2.

CableCards have not been mandated by the CRTC (Canadian, more draconian version of FCC), nor has firewire for that matter, so it will take longer for CableCard to catch on. As you say they won't like it because it doesn't allow PPV and VoD so it will cut into their revenue. CableCard version 2 should allow these functions.

They may be forced to support CableCard as more people buy TVs with slots and insist on getting a card rather than an STB. One of the reasons that CableCard was promoted was to make digital cable cheaper but it is now very cheap - Rogers sells SD digital boxes for C$49 plus C$10/month programming rebate so they are less than free. I bought two of these boxes so I now rent an HD box (SA3250HD) and own 2 SD boxes (SA3200). None of the boxes have active firewire ports. I am thinking of buying my TiVo its own SD box so that I don't have to worry about someone changing the channel while a show is being TiVoed.

If CableCard did support PPV and VoD then I don't see why cable cos. would not like them as I am not sure that they like being in the hardware business.

I would love to see a TV-tuner PCI card with a CableCard slot so that you could use your TV to record digital channels directly.

I am hoping that Rogers begins supporting CableCard in the next year so that I will have the option of getting a HD-SA-TiVo assuming that it comes out and TiVo is still around in 2006.

[AlphaWolf]

If CableCard did support PPV and VoD then I don't see why cable cos. would not like them as I am not sure that they like being in the hardware business.

I'm sure they do, otherwise they would allow you to buy your own digital cable receiver rather than charging steep leasing fees. At least that is what cox does anyways, I know some cable providers are different.

[wayner]

I'm sure they do, otherwise they would allow you to buy your own digital cable receiver rather than charging steep leasing fees. At least that is what cox does anyways, I know some cable providers are different.Rogers is obviously subsidizing the sale of digital cable receivers using the Gillette model. I doubt very much that they buy the boxes for less than C$49, that's about US$40. Even if you don't order many digital channels you can now be enticed to watch PPV or VOD.

If CableCards were cheaper then cable cos. would move to giving them away (or selling at very low prices) to ramp up digital subscribers.

[AlphaWolf]

I think time warner and at&t do the same thing now that you mention it. It is probably mostly just my own digital cable provider. Cox is well known as the best cable ISP you can get in north america (at least in several areas anyways, including mine,) but their digital catv service isn't anything to be proud of. Not only is their channel selection bad, but the quality sucks (even on digital channels) and even if you buy a digital cable box that is the right make, model, has the right firmware, etc, they will refuse to activate it unless you lease it directly from them (you can't own one.) I just subscribe to directv though, so I get the best of both tv and internet :D

[LeeG23]

It probably wont have a dual tuner configuration, at least not with cable.


Some of the mockups that were at CES had 2 cable card slots - I am assuming that would allow 2 tuners, no?

L

[AlphaWolf]

Sure I guess, but that would mean you need to pay for two digital cable accounts on that one tv.

[wayner]

Sure I guess, but that would mean you need to pay for two digital cable accounts on that one tv.Not two digital cable accounts - you would be charged for two devices or rent for two cards. I don't see this as being any different than having two cable boxes in your house. You pay for the additional devices but you don't have to pay twice for the content.

[VinceA]

Two CableCards are cheaper than one cable box from my provider (Cablevision). An SA4200 is about $5/mo while a CableCard is $1.50/mo. So, I'd come out ahead when/if TiVo comes out with a dual CableCard unit

[AlphaWolf]

Not two digital cable accounts - you would be charged for two devices or rent for two cards. I don't see this as being any different than having two cable boxes in your house. You pay for the additional devices but you don't have to pay twice for the content.

Well thats what I meant, it would cost you an extra 3-10 dollars per month for a dual tuner (that would be just the charge for having another digital viewing in another room; cox charges like $9 a month for the digital cable box itself, then $6 a month if you want the digital channels, this all depends on your cable provider of course though.) Dishnet is similar in that they charge $5 extra per month for a dual tuner. Directv dual tuners are free however.

[The Only Druid]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think we have any actual information as to whether we'd have to pay extra for a second cablecard, right?

I'm sure its not too likely that cable companies want to provide two cards for the price of one, but that doesn't mean that we'd -need- two cards.

The Tivo may (this is pure speculation on my part) be able to 'dupe' the card's signature specifically for this purpose. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were able to do so, specifically because of how most cable-company specific boxes do it without requiring a second account.

[AlphaWolf]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think we have any actual information as to whether we'd have to pay extra for a second cablecard, right?

I'm sure its not too likely that cable companies want to provide two cards for the price of one, but that doesn't mean that we'd -need- two cards.

Well, for all intents and purposes you could take two cablecards and then use one on another tv or split the cable bill with your neighbor.

[grabb]

If you look at the cablecard specifications, there is a new version being designed that supports dual tuners in one card. This way the Tivo (or other box) would not need to have two cablecard slots in order to do dual tuners (though I would think a dual tuner cablecard is not backwards compatible with a single tuner slot). I would guess your cable company would still charge you for the extra tuner, but it's at least a little simpler.