PDA

View Full Version : I don't like the atmosphere here but I'm doing nothing to change it (split from: Newbie Guide)



DestinyCmdr
02-07-2005, 03:31 PM
Who promised to hold your hand through the whole process for $5? That's one heck of a deal, if you ask me.



Research the bootpage and the partition layout, and your question will be answered.

I'm not asking to be handheld, but I do think that "To install these kernels, uncompress and use the dd command to write it to the appropriate partition." in the README that already exists in that directory shouldn't be out of the question. Especially since there is a whole tool in the same directory that handholds people with Series 1 units.

The problem for beginners stems from the fact that we can only search for the question. More often than not, by orders of magnitude, that only succeeds in finding copies of the question. Knowing what keywords to search for is very difficult. I finally discovered that I need to unzip the image and write it to two partitions using dd. But I didn't know that "dd" or "partition" were the search terms I needed. And when I finally did, I found dozens of instances of bad advice (write the kernel to /dev/hda4 and /dev/hda7, for example), which would have forced me to throw away hours of work if I didn't pay enough attention to know it was the wrong thing to do.

I'm just saying, all you really smart people who figured this stuff out are great. But you have the time and resources to do it. Not everyone does (we have to actually watch TV sometime...), and a little patience goes a long way.

In the extreme case, if you see a question that has been answered a million times, just ignore it. Another beginner who had the same problem may answer... (I try to, to balance out the Karma.) But negative attacks of the kind "we've answered that; go look for the answer" don't help the genuises OR the newbies. Trust me, most of us ARE looking.

Now, the reply from alldeadhomiez, giving a hint as to what to look for, that's helpful... It even answered another of my questions before I knew I had it.

JJBliss
02-07-2005, 03:42 PM
I finally discovered that I need to unzip the image and write it to two partitions using dd
Ah, but that's the point. You don't. You only need to copy it to ONE. You must have followed an incorrect "guide"



I'm just saying, all you really smart people who figured this stuff out are great. But you have the time and resources to do it. Not everyone does (we have to actually watch TV sometime...),
Then you don't belong here. This forum is for people who do have the time and resources to do it. If you don't thats fine. Enjoy your stock Tivo. It's a great little device that works just fine without any hacking. If you still want to hack it, but don't really have the time, patience, resources or inclination, they will be happy to help you and step you through what little they know over at Tivocommunity Forum.

PlainBill
02-07-2005, 06:05 PM
<SNIP>
I'm just saying, all you really smart people who figured this stuff out are great. But you have the time and resources to do it. Not everyone does (we have to actually watch TV sometime...), and a little patience goes a long way.

<SNIP>
This is one point I question. Granted there are many people here who know lots more about the working of a TiVo, can program better, or even have more patience fiddling until they get something to work than I do. However, after having delved into one of the great mysteries - Monte at the urging of NutKase, I'd have to say this stuff isn't that hard. If you can write a coherent letter, balance a checkbook, or program a VCR, you can learn to do this IF YOU WANT TO.

As far as I know, the only people who are FORCED to watch TV are some TV critics, and the broadcast engineers who work at getting the stuff out to the public. The rest of us do so voluntarily.

Sturgeon's Law also applies to television. Frankly, I don't believe anyone will suffer a measurable loss in their quality of life if they miss a couple of episodes of 'The Simple Life', 'Survivor', 'The Apprentice', 'King of the Hill', '24', or the Superbowl.

PlainBill

DestinyCmdr
02-07-2005, 06:24 PM
If you still want to hack it, but don't really have the time, patience, resources or inclination, they will be happy to help you and step you through what little they know over at Tivocommunity Forum.

That's not what I said. I didn't say I didn't have the time to hack it, I said I didn't have the time to figure it out from scratch.

Why it is, that anytime someone wants to ask a question here, that they have to put on their flak jacket first?


Ah, but that's the point. You don't. You only need to copy it to ONE. You must have followed an incorrect "guide"

And that's part of the problem. While the common questions get answered on occasion, they get answered incorrectly. How is a beginner supposed to separate the good information from the bad (or the good, but outdated)? Except by asking again.

I know that you only need to copy it to one. But one guide says that bootpage tells you the wrong boot partition. Turns out it was wrong; bootpage told me the right one. So I put the kernel on both to be safe.

No guide told me whether the kernel needed to be uncompressed first. I couldn't find any information about that (still can't), although I did figure it out by trial and error. I have used Linux since 0.97, and not only have I always installed the kernel compressed, I also installed it as a file and run a boot manager (Lilo, etc.). I've not seen it installed as an entire partition before. So I was understandably confused.


Who promised to hold your hand through the whole process for $5? That's one heck of a deal, if you ask me.

If I pay for a product that no one else provides, no matter how little I pay, I do expect some level of documentation from them about how to use it. One sentence is good enough. Is that actually an unreasonable thing to ask?

My mistake was in asking this group. Since my beef was with the PTVupgrade product's lack of doc, I should have posted my question there. Unfortunately, I didn't know they HAD a forum until several hours later. My mistake. Sorry.


But it would make the world a better place if a new user in this forum didn't have to fear having their heads bitten off for simply trying to explain WHY this process is frustrating for them. That was the original statement I was trying to make (separate from the question I was asking). In my hours of searching, I have seen countless people ask simple questions only to get chewed out for it. I was trying to be helpful to the smart people in here who were getting frustrated for seeing the same questions repeatedly by telling you why I thought that was happening. And I get my head bitten off.

In primary school, they used to teach "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything". They people in here seem to have forgotten that.

DestinyCmdr
02-07-2005, 06:30 PM
This is one point I question. Granted there are many people here who know lots more about the working of a TiVo, can program better, or even have more patience fiddling until they get something to work than I do. However, after having delved into one of the great mysteries - Monte at the urging of NutKase, I'd have to say this stuff isn't that hard. If you can write a coherent letter, balance a checkbook, or program a VCR, you can learn to do this IF YOU WANT TO.

Yes, but you have to read for about a week to put together the basic information. You guys do it so often you've got it in your heads. But there really is an amazing amount of information to grasp. None of it particularly difficult, but still a lot. We buy TiVo to enjoy TV. Spending a week to learn how to get some more storage is a lot of investment. Not to mention the shows being lost because the TiVo is offline that whole week.


As far as I know, the only people who are FORCED to watch TV are some TV critics, and the broadcast engineers who work at getting the stuff out to the public. The rest of us do so voluntarily.

My bad. I meant "want" not need. Even TV critics aren't forced...

hayreass
02-07-2005, 07:37 PM
Spending a week to learn how to get some more storage is a lot of investment. Not to mention the shows being lost because the TiVo is offline that whole week.

Look here for how to get more storage (http://www.newreleasesvideo.com/hinsdale-how-to/index9.html) It's a well written guide, no need to ask questions here about it.
The "friendly" folks over at TCF should be able to help.

alldeadhomiez
02-07-2005, 07:37 PM
Split from drapatin's thread. Continue your rants here (and for the love of God, keep the flaming/politics away from the tytool thread).

The fact of the matter is that you've been here since August 2004. In six months you've absorbed some amount of information from this site, yet you have published no new code or documentation. If you want to make the learning curve easier for new members, by all means, write something that helps them come up to speed (and then proofread it a couple dozen times to make sure it doesn't look like the RID guide).

As it stands, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You will accomplish NOTHING by telling the DDB regulars what to do.

DestinyCmdr
02-07-2005, 07:59 PM
(and for the love of God, keep the flaming/politics away from the tytool thread).

If you read my post there, I did state that I didn't want to clutter that thread. But jdiner did ask. I have no intention of following up to that conversation there.


The fact of the matter is that you've been here since August 2004. In six months you've absorbed some amount of information from this site, yet you have published no new code or documentation.

I've been here since early 2002. I signed up as a member in August to download some ZIPs that the forum wouldn't otherwise let me have. Over the years, I've watched new members (and veterans alike) get roasted for asking questions. It happens more often now than it used to.

Is it required that I publish code or documentation to ask a question or offer constructive information about why new users have difficulty?


If you want to make the learning curve easier for new members, by all means, write something that helps them come up to speed (and then proofread it a couple dozen times to make sure it doesn't look like the RID guide).

Now that I'm a posting member (rather than just a leech, er, reader), I fully intend to. It's taken me a while to get to the point where I am not a total beginner, although I still am a relative beginner. The blind leading the blind just makes it worse, and I'm barely become able to see just recently.

And proofreading anything I may have written a couple dozen times takes more than a few days. I've only been posting for a few days.

My real intention is to write a TyTool clone for the Mac. But it's gonna take a while before I'm ready for that.


As it stands, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You will accomplish NOTHING by telling the DDB regulars what to do.

Since it seems that everyone asking novice questions are part of the problem, I would tend to agree with your assessment. But it wouldn't hurt for the experts to realize that they used to be novices.

After all, I did post my newbie question in a thread called "Newbie Guide".

alldeadhomiez
02-07-2005, 08:26 PM
Is it required that I publish code or documentation to ask a question or offer constructive information about why new users have difficulty?

What you said has been said dozens of times before (look around the Sewer). I fail to see how making this argument is in any way constructive.


Since it seems that everyone asking novice questions are part of the problem, I would tend to agree with your assessment. But it wouldn't hurt for the experts to realize that they used to be novices.

The experts are the people who learned how to figure things out on their own. Often, they got where they are today because somebody gave them a push in the right direction: RTFM, STFW, etc.

DestinyCmdr
02-07-2005, 08:49 PM
What you said has been said dozens of times before (look around the Sewer). I fail to see how making this argument is in any way constructive.

I just did, and I feel much better now.


The experts are the people who learned how to figure things out on their own. Often, they got where they are today because somebody gave them a push in the right direction: RTFM, STFW, etc.

While this is true, the "first" experts used to be much friendlier with novices, giving them the aforementioned push, and allowing said novices to become the experts of today. New novices don't stand as much of a chance.

In any case, this whole thing started because I asked one question. Granted it was a question that had been asked and answered before, and had I looked another couple of hours I would have found. But I figured everything else out on my own. I never asked for handholding like some others I've read about.

I am trying to wrap my mind around the basis to this forum, which is that the knowledge here must be earned. I don't totally agree with it (The experts here didn't build their own TiVos; they bought them at the store. Most of the novices just want to do the same thing: buy the knowledge that this forum provides to have better TiVos. I'm not one of those novices; I want to learn, but this weekend I happened to be in a hurry.) But I am trying to understand it and work with it.

I really do want to be a useful contributing member of this forum. But I unfortunately get into bad moods (especially after 18 hours of searching while jetlagged) and screw myself. This is one of those times.

I'm learning. On all fronts. Please give me a second chance!

(Does begging work?)

Please consider this thread closed.

alldeadhomiez
02-07-2005, 09:53 PM
While this is true, the "first" experts used to be much friendlier with novices, giving them the aforementioned push, and allowing said novices to become the experts of today. New novices don't stand as much of a chance.

Novices who appear to have a clue are treated better than those who do not. That's how a meritocracy works.

Hint: the ones with a clue don't start Sewer crusades, because they know that's not a battle they will win.

ronrico51
02-07-2005, 09:57 PM
I don't think anything positive can come from attacking the regulars here, the ones who have developed many of the techniques used to hack the tivo. I've ready dozens (hundreds ?) of posts by newbs basically saying "it's too hard, do it for me". All of the questions have been answered many times, and the answers can be found with enough digging. If you keep at it, you will reach a tipping point, where things that seemed impossible to understand will start to make sense.
It's not fair or reasonable to expect these guys to answer the same questions day after day, especially when the answers may take a lot of typing. They still do it though.
Just want to thank all the regulars here. I have a hacked tcd2400xx, don't claim to understand it all, but I can get through most stuff now, paid my dues, did lots of searches, read a lot of posts, many useless, and feel more in control than I ever did with Tivoscripts.
One suggestion I do have. It might be helpful to have a sticky in the newbie section with a glossary of terms and brief explanations. Things like RID, monte, etc. I'm not competent to do that.

Rick

JJBliss
02-07-2005, 10:02 PM
Let's see how things go. Good luck.

DestinyCmdr
02-07-2005, 10:10 PM
I don't think anything positive can come from attacking the regulars here

I don't think I've attacked. If I have, I apologize. I want to BECOME a regular.


, the ones who have developed many of the techniques used to hack the tivo. I've ready dozens (hundreds ?) of posts by newbs basically saying "it's too hard, do it for me".

Me too. And I don't think most things should be done for us. I can understand the frustration of the developers to those posts. But I just think it's better for the developers to ignore those posts than to attack them.

I think pointing novices at the Sewer threads may help reduce the noise. I've learned a lot over the past several hours, reading about 20-30 pages.

DestinyCmdr
02-07-2005, 10:13 PM
Novices who appear to have a clue are treated better than those who do not. That's how a meritocracy works.

Hint: the ones with a clue don't start Sewer crusades, because they know that's not a battle they will win.

I didn't know it was a battle. I wasn't looking for one, nor intending to create one. I was just stumped with a very specific problem after a very, very, very long day. The answer I got wasn't helpful; I would have preferred to get no answer at all.

JJBliss
02-07-2005, 10:15 PM
Points have been made on both sides. Some are good, others bad. Nonetheless, I'm closing this thread.

Good luck DestinyCmdr. Stick around, become a productive regular. Help out the folks who need it, and give something back and we'll all probably forget about all this foolishness.

-Thread Closed -