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monkeyboy
09-30-2001, 11:31 PM
Has anyone looked into using their DirecTiVo as an emulation computer in addition to it's DirecTiVo duties? I have been trying to think of what it would take, but unfortunatly I am new to the emulation scene. On the plus side, I am good with Linux and programming. Here are the issues/ideas I have:

It looks like all EMU software is DOS based. Is the source availble for any emulator software? Obviously this would need to be ported.

Need 2 serial ports, but TiVo only has one. I was thinking maybe the IR port is a serial port also, but I am not sure. Regardless, I think the TiVoNET Board from 9thtee.com should get us an ISA port to plug a ISA serial controller card into.

There are plenty of places to get juice from on the motherboard, so that should not be an issue.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

BubbaJ
10-01-2001, 11:28 AM
Pitou is a linux open source emulator. The DTivo has 4 (I think) serial ports, including the smartcard slot .. golly george..

REALLY.. though.. As long as the machine has enough CPU power, it should be rather doable.. :) Configed like this though..


1) remap the device where the smartcard sits to a pipe
2) use that pipe as serial port 1 (emulator) port
3) map the serial port where the smartcard sits somewhere else
4) use that somewhere else as serial port 2 (smartcard)

it's all in linux, all it needs is a recompile of pitou for someone to test it.. it requires no external hardware, no trickyness.. very smooth and straight forward..

monkeyboy
10-02-2001, 12:34 AM
Thanks for the Pitou info Bubba. I grabbed it, and will now get PPP set up so I can compile it. Where did you hear about the smartcard slot being a serial port? That could make this a pure software hack, which is way more than I had hoped for. I just assumed that the DirecTV portion was implemented completly in hardware.

As for CPU power, I would imagine if it is capable of encoding 2 programs at once, it should be able to handle 1 program and emulating (since I won't be running 2.5).

Wheeeeee!

BubbaJ
10-02-2001, 10:06 AM
didn't you know? All smart cards are serial in nature.. whether it is mapped to linux on the DTivo, I'm not positive, if it is, great.. if it's not.. well, just cut and solder..
(It probably is though) I just haven't tested it (My wife doesn't like me playing with HER DTivo..)

How to check/find.. put an emulator in the tivo smartcard slot, set up the serial on your PC(connected to Emu) to a known value in a terminal program

configure each of the linux serial ports to match what you set up on the PC

enter the following where <port> is each serial port in the system
echo "BubbaJ kicks Ass" ><port>

whichever port says I kick ass is the smartcard port.. ;)

of course if none of them work, then somethings either confgured wrong or you'll have to solder something..

Glitched
10-02-2001, 08:40 PM
this is an AWESOME idea.. but unfortunatly you just arent going to have enough cpu power to do this... I do have alot of experience with emulators, and pitou seems to require a minimum of 100mhz... there was a thread about this a few months ago...

feel free to flame me if you somehow get this to work, cause this would be the best thing since...well.....TV!!! ;)

BubbaJ
10-03-2001, 10:28 AM
Actually the DTivo has a lot going for it to make it easier to emulate with..

1) there's only 1 serial port to deal with
2) it doesn't have to handle timing (current emulators poll the serial to make sure they get the right data dtivo is already set up for the appropriate timing)
3) powerpc chips handle simple structured programs WAY better than x86 chips
4) ??? I'm sure there's more, I just haven't thought of it yet

Clark
10-03-2001, 11:23 AM
All of this talk about emulating got me motivated. A few years ago I had service with directv. I dug through all of my stuff and found that my card is a H card. My question is - How do I tell if my card is of any use to emulate with. The account has been closed (by me). If I put the card into my receiver will I see anything that would indicate if it is a "good" card. Thanks for any help you can offer.

BubbaJ
10-04-2001, 10:25 AM
Keep it out of the reciever, just in case.

virtually all H-Cards are usable for emulation (even damaged one). As your card was not in use Black Sunday, you probably don't have any problems.

just follow the instructions for set up for the emu and you are on your way. (At present I would recommend you stick to traditional emulation unless you are interested in attempting to hack the DTivo (with little support))

winter
10-04-2001, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Clark
All of this talk about emulating got me motivated. A few years ago I had service with directv. I dug through all of my stuff and found that my card is a H card. My question is - How do I tell if my card is of any use to emulate with. The account has been closed (by me). If I put the card into my receiver will I see anything that would indicate if it is a "good" card. Thanks for any help you can offer.

As BubbaJ said, you can use the card regardless, however if its never been hacked with before (just a canceled sub) then I'm sure its good. Stick it in your receiver, if you get the preview station on channel 100 then it fine and all you need is a straight card programmer to use it, if its a BS card or otherwise looped (which yours obviously cant be from what you told us) the receiver will say IVAC (insert valid access card) when its inserted - this means you need to either use an unlooper to emulate with it or a bootloader in conjunction with a straight programmer.

Regardless of what kind of card it is its better to buy an all-in-one programmer/unlooper/loader that will service all of your current and future needs by changing the code that is loaded on the atmel. The prices have come way down so you can get one fairly inexpensively.

Here's a site with lots of great info for getting started: Link (http://www.megsinet.net/~kayo/)

Clark
10-04-2001, 05:42 PM
Thanks for the answer. I didn't want to proceed unless I had a reasonably good chance of success. Can anybody recommend a good programer/looper/unlooper. Thanks!

smokeman
10-04-2001, 06:19 PM
This site has tons of info, and reccomendations on what to buy, and what not to buy.
http://id-discussions.com/

smokeman
10-04-2001, 08:28 PM
I am a test card oldtimer, but a tivo newbie.
I have been using linux for quite some time (RHCE :-), and when I heard about pitou when it was first released I did a backflip....(well, not really)...
I haven't had time to try it yet, I've stuck with the standard h card in a bootlseeve, or 3m'd hu...

this is exciting though...I would definately be willing to give this a try, but I am not understanding a couple of things:

Your basic emulator is simply a serial communication chip that catches the signals sent to the smart card socket, and routes them to a pc(via serial port) for interpretation...if it is a standard request, it sends signal back to slot to approve...if it is an auth signal, then it is routed to a real card sitting in a standard iso serial programmer(reader/writer) or an unlooper programmed with the atmel for black sunday cards, and a black sunday h card.

Now, I purchased my t-60 to hack, but I have not opened it up yet, but with the pics on this site and looking at my unit...there are no serial ports accessible.
http://www.9thtee.com/insidedirectv-tivo.htm

since the existing smart card slot is supposedly a serial device, has anyone verified that it is accessable from a /dev/ttySxx device number?
If this is in fact true, and pitou, and the directivo OS can be modified to do this all internally (since the emulator chip is theoretically just a flow control chip) and the existing slot can just read a good h card(with an hu bin in it) for the programmer part of the EMU,
This could work...
otherwise, we would have to figure out how to integrate serial ports into the T-60, and do it the old fashioned way.

This is truly an exciting idea though.
If the smart card slot can be software modified to be a reader/writer.....then modifying it to work with black sunday cards shouldn't be far behind....
If this works, it will truly turn the heads of the guys over at http://id-discussions.com
and a few more I would bet :-)

Glitched
10-04-2001, 10:22 PM
Could we really do this??? I am my no means a programmer, but wouldnt this take nearly a complete code rewrite to acomplish this....You would have to integrate pitou with the normal functions of the reciever..(which might be, i dont know, hardcoded in a chip, and not a part of the linux part of the device). Remember we are dealing with two seperate devices that just happen to share the same box, I know of a guy who has experience with this kinda thing ;) ill drop him a line, and see his thoughts..... I personally just dont think the tivo has the processing power, not to mention the goliath amount of knowlege and programming this would be to acoplish, but if we could do this, it could get no better!!
....but what do i know :D

BubbaJ
10-05-2001, 10:56 AM
I AM a programmer, and pitou should be fairly portable.

There is NO need to integrate it with the reciever functionality, an emulator is a man-in-the middle attack on an external serial port.

The only real piece of information that I am missing at present is actual verification of whether or not the smartcard slot is mapped to a linux serial port. Should I ever get the opportunity to test it I will, or someone here, who may have more time than me could do it..

As far as the whole concept of seperate subsystems on DTivo, that's retarded. If they were two fully seperate systems then you'd need 2 access cards and the kernel of the tivo side would not matter in the slightest. The TIVO software controls the TUNERS, why would it not control the serial ports?


A short education in DBS/DSS functionality:
1) video/audio from content provider is encoded to MPG2

2) 1 to 15Mbit video streams are multiplexed onto 20Mbit channels

3) Access control packets are inserted into the stream

4) the stream is transmitted to the satellite, and rebroadcast to earth

5) the tuner in your receiver tunes to a 20Mbit channel

6) a custom programmed GAL (not sure if this is in use on the dtivo) translates the stream into its componant segments and buffers them

7) the processor (sh20 on most systems, ppc on dtivo) dumps the mpeg streams to it's decoder (internal on the sh20, external on the tivo)

8) the processor picks up the access control packets and passes them blindly to the smartcard. If the smart card tells the reciever that all is not right, then the reciever blocks sends alternate information to it's mpeg decoder (output device)


even in a regular reciever, the reciever is quite capable of processing the video stream even without the access card. The software is set up in such a manner that the access card processing is required for continued operation.

Glitched
10-05-2001, 11:04 AM
:rolleyes: OK

winter
10-05-2001, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by BubbaJ

8) the processor picks up the access control packets and passes them blindly to the smartcard. If the smart card tells the reciever that all is not right, then the reciever blocks sends alternate information to it's mpeg decoder (output device)

even in a regular reciever, the reciever is quite capable of processing the video stream even without the access card. The software is set up in such a manner that the access card processing is required for continued operation.
I'm not sure if I misunderstood you but just to be clear - there is no way for a regular receiver to decrypt the video stream without an access card. The access card decryption isnt just a pass/fail return result - the values returned by the card provide the key value for decrypting the video stream - without that decryption the video stream is useless (and cannot be decompressed). This is why every dtv hack (be it programming or an emulator) still requires an access card, the custom asic on the card has not been broken and is always required to decrypt the stream.

I'm sure you knew that already since your description above exceeds my knowledge however I thought that your point 8 might be slightly misleading to others reading the thread. :)

tangee
10-05-2001, 12:49 PM
BubbaJ, you said:

"even in a regular reciever, the reciever is quite capable of processing the video stream even without the access card. The software is set up in such a manner that the access card processing is required for continued operation"

I think your statement is wrong. The receiver cannot decrypt anything by itself. Even if you had complete receiver ROM source code, it would do you no good. The receiver needs the proper keys to decrypt encrypted video packets.

The access card provides those decryption keys - and the logic to do so is sufficiently complex/unknown that emulators must still employ access cards to do that part of it.

winter
10-05-2001, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by tangee
BubbaJ, you said:

"even in a regular reciever, the reciever is quite capable of processing the video stream even without the access card. The software is set up in such a manner that the access card processing is required for continued operation"

I think your statement is wrong. The receiver cannot decrypt anything by itself. Even if you had complete receiver ROM source code, it would do you no good. The receiver needs the proper keys to decrypt encrypted video packets.

The access card provides those decryption keys - and the logic to do so is sufficiently complex/unknown that emulators must still employ access cards to do that part of it.

Yep, if the custom asic in the card was ever compromised dave would be in a world of hurt - we could do true software emulation, no card required at all, no programmer/reader required, just a simple emu card some software and that would be it. Man that would be so sweet, of course it would probably cause dave to start working on a complete hardware swapout at that point to some much more secure system.

Fugg
10-05-2001, 08:18 PM
as far as an aux interface....
if you have a tivonet installed, running a ppc compiled pitou client, using the tivo's tcp_ip stack and just use a remote hydra-mux?

....you could possibly use the serial port, too.....

dat way you be saving dem clock cycles, too....

:)

Glitched
10-06-2001, 12:35 AM
NOW, thats an idea fugg!! although you would still ned another pc to run the mux..

Chance
10-06-2001, 02:15 AM
Wow could the timing be any better! That is the sole reason I just purchased a new DSR1000R yesterday is to experiment and turn it into a- Yes, remember you heard it here in the DD first, the soon to be famous EmuRECiVo !! (Just my new pet name for the project! Let me know if ya like we'll do t-shirts! lol) This is my inaugural post here as you can see and now I am pretty amp'ed about it! I started out researching all the latest test card options available, progresing naturally to programming, etc. etc. (UnGodly amount of options, fluff , puff and all) and so on when all of a sudden -can you spell maybe I should look up the nearest HaADD Anonymous except I keep forgetting the phone number?-

chuque
10-06-2001, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by BubbaJ
even in a regular reciever, the reciever is quite capable of processing the video stream even without the access card. The software is set up in such a manner that the access card processing is required for continued operation.

So is that to say (given the needed knowledge) one could write a prom/OS/what ever to simply ignore Access control packets? And everything would be fine? I thought there was some level of encrypt/decrypt going on via the acis chip on the smart card.

Glitched
10-06-2001, 01:41 PM
NO chuque, contrary to the beleifs of Bubba_j :rolleyes: the receiver only decrypts video if it has the correct video decyption key, which is produced by the asic of the access card. Many attepts to crack the algorithm of this asic have proved futile. Bottom line, receiver can decrypt about as much without the access card, as the access card can without the receiver! ;)

kidney
10-06-2001, 09:58 PM
For anyone that care or can help, the pitou v1.57 makes Sony DTivo go into demo mode.

And I can't get out off it. The only way i found is is to copy another DTivo drive....

Can anybody help me to get out the demo mode.

smokeman
10-07-2001, 04:01 PM
Machine resources is going to play a huge roll in this. I hear on all of these directivo's, that the ppc chip is surface mount soldered...which is very difficult, but not impossible to replace. Does anyone know if it is in fact a g3, or not...
could a g4 be popped in, to aid in cpu power?

Has anyone found the card slot in the /dev yet?

I am cracking my case tonite :-)

zero
10-08-2001, 10:02 AM
Well I've been following this thread and thought its about time to register and add some input. I myself don't have a Tivo unit, but this may motivate me to buy one :)

Does anyone know the clock speed and series of the PPC chip used in the Tivo units? For years and years I was a dedicated Mac addict and know quite a bit about them and PPC chips. "Good" chips consist of the 601, 601+, 604, 604e, G3, and G4's. The only real bad ones are the 603 and 603e. The 603 series of chips are low power consuming and basically made for laptops and low end computers. In my list of good chips, they go in order from worst to best. Comparatively, here is how I can compare the speed chips. I still have a mac with the 601+ chip at 120 MHz. Its comparable to a p2 @ 400 Mhz. A 603 series processor running at 300 Mhz is about the same as the 601 I have.

Lots is to be said about the size of the L1 and L2 caches and the operation of the FPU. 603 chips had terrible, horible FPUs and only 16k L1 cache, often no L2 cache at all. The 603e has 32k for the L1 cache, but didn't help too much. Basically it makes and breaks the processor. Later 604e processors coupled with 64k L1 cache and 1 MB L2 cache were the best until the g3 came out, combining the power of the 604e and power saving of the 603 series while superceading both of them.

Anyway, no matter what series and clock speed the Tivo processor runs at, it should be able to run a single session pitou instance and function as normal.

I have a K6-3 450 with 128 ram running 2 IRDs, an FTP, web server, proxy, samba, and e-mail server. It doesn't see an incredible amount of traffic, but my IRDs never glitch. From my experiences withs PPCs, it should be able to do tivo and pitou no problem. Asking it to run its own IRD and and another might be pushing it.

Then again, tivo could be using a whole different chip I've never heard of. The chips listed above are what Apple uses.

zero
10-08-2001, 10:02 AM
Replacing the processor would be both be imossible and expensive. Apple can't even get there hands on enough g4 chips to supply the demand. You could buy an upgrade card for older macs and take the chip off from there, but from what I have seen, all the different series of PPC chips use different socks. It wouldn't be as simple as lifting the pins and resoldering. Also, you would need a new rom on the Tivo motherboard. Unless your an electrical engineer designing your own motherboard, it wouldn't work.

Sorry this is so long, but I'm curious what processor series and clock speed these units use.

zero

Glitched
10-08-2001, 03:15 PM
the chip in my sony t60 is a ppc 403gcx ... whatever that is ;)

which after a little research i found runs at 66mhz....(i believe)

http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/CIC/embed/announce/ppc403gcx.html

http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/powerpc/chips/gcx.html

Glitched
10-08-2001, 03:22 PM
just something else i found that i thought was interesting

http://penguinppc.org/embedded/tivo/hardware/jtag.shtml

BubbaJ
10-08-2001, 04:02 PM
A Sony Sat-B50 can be forced into a lockup that will allow the removal of the access card while still decoding the stream

A Sony Sat-T60 does not respond properly to the Hash (Which is not available right now) it would record the entire program and play it back without a problem, as long as the tivo was on a menu (system menu for my testing) when the pre-programmed record began

A Sony Sat-T60 does not respond properly to the removal of the Access Card when in system menus and while forcing a call.
1) Go to live TV
2) go to the system information menu
3) pull the Access Card
4) wait a half hour
5) go back to live TV
6) rewind to beginning
7) if screen is black, insert access card until picture shows up (very quick) and remove again (it may not be black, but sometimes it is)
8) watch entire program, recorded digitally, and obviously not unencrypted in its entirety during the moment that you inserted the card.

Yes, the data stream to and from the card is quite fancy, not it does not contain some magically required code, it simply does not have the power or bandwidth nessecary for use a reliable decryption device or key provider.

Glitched
10-08-2001, 04:28 PM
:rolleyes: bubba, why must you speak about things you obviously know nothing about? the card creates the decryption key which then allows the receiver to decode the satalite stream. period. thats it. fact.


programs that have been priviously recorded(while the acces card is in the receiver) are recorded decoded, i.e. they do not require the access card in order to be played back.

if this was a directv forum youd have been eaten alive... try posting this at www.dssforums.ca ,and see what they say ;)

Glitched
10-09-2001, 12:07 AM
if someone will compile pitou for the tivo, i already have a pitou-mux server, my directivo already has a tivonet card, all i need is pitou, and im ready to try this out...but i dont know how to go about compiling things to run ont tivo-linux

zero
10-09-2001, 02:51 AM
Glitched,

Thanks for the great info :)

That JTAG looks promising for what we are doing here. I will try and compile a PPC version of pitou and see what happens. I have MkLinux installed on my mac and it should be able to compile it with the proper libraries. I'll do a static compile since I'm not sure what kind of linux install is on the Tivo.

66 Mhz should still work fine. I don't know much about the chip, but if its comparable to a 601 at all, it should be fine. I used a 601 at 66 MHz w/ no L2 cache for years over a 120 MHz 603e. I found the 66 to be faster. They make great linux machines. One of the things that I was going to do since macs have 2 serial ports is compile Pitou and find the pinouts for the mac and see if I can emulate using that...just for the fun of it. You'd be suprised what a 66 MHz RISC processor can do. Its strange how a 500 MHz g3 can be considered a super computer because of all the instructions it can process / sec. and Intel 1.4 Ghz still have yet to catch up with it. Just goes to show how the public is misinformed about clock speeds.

zero

winter
10-09-2001, 09:28 AM
Ok BubbaJ, here's what I did and what I saw (SAT60)

(1) Card in, Tuned to a station with a clock, it was 8:52 am
(2) Switched to the system information menu
(3) Pulled the access card and waited until 9:00am
(4) Went back to livetv & inserted the access card (left it in)
(5) Rewind to 8:52am and played forward

What I saw was that the time between 8:52am and 9:00am was not recorded at all - the video jumps. As I said I choose a station with a clock which makes it quite obvious that it did not tape when the card was missing (or a few seconds thereafter).

I also left the card in after 9am rather than inserting and pulling it quickly like you said - there is no reason to do that, its not like the T60 is capable of storing encrypted video and decrypting it later on during playback - similarly you can record a show with the card in and then watch it later with the card out, the card is only used for decrypting in realtime.

Well there's my results, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and tried it even though what you wrote is contrary to everything I've read on alt.dss.hack for the last year. That is, the card provides the key to the video decryption algorithm & without that key you cannot decrypt the video. I double checked in DejaNews and that theme has been repeated many times and I've never seen anyone claim otherwise.

If anyone else can reproduce what you've seen I'd love to be proved wrong - there are also lots of 'elders' on adh that will be equally stunned by such a revelation.


Yes, the data stream to and from the card is quite fancy, not it does not contain some magically required code, it simply does not have the power or bandwidth nessecary for use a reliable decryption device or key provider.

?????

smokeman
10-11-2001, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by Glitched
if someone will compile pitou for the tivo, i already have a pitou-mux server, my directivo already has a tivonet card, all i need is pitou, and im ready to try this out...but i dont know how to go about compiling things to run ont tivo-linux


The 403GCX site links:
http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/powerpc/chips/403_pci.pdf

http://penguinppc.org/embedded/tivo/hardware/
http://www.borg.umn.edu/~grant/Linux/

tivo compiler/tivo enhancement team:

http://tivohack.sourceforge.net/otherdownloads.php3



I hope to have a bit of time this weekend to play more with this.

pasha
10-11-2001, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by BubbaJ


8) the processor picks up the access control packets and passes them blindly to the smartcard. If the smart card tells the reciever that all is not right, then the reciever blocks sends alternate information to it's mpeg decoder (output device)


even in a regular reciever, the reciever is quite capable of processing the video stream even without the access card. The software is set up in such a manner that the access card processing is required for continued operation.

BubbaJ

Not exactly... :)

smart card pick encrypted packets....
dectypt them based on your subscrybtion and & etc
and return decryptd code words which valid for couple seconds of upcoming video to your reciever
reciever blindly pass them to mpeg decoder...
if code words are valid it generate picture... if not you getting black screen...
audio is not encrypted.... you will get it anyway...

here is more things in smart card but this is most importatnt part in order show picture...

enjoy

Mrpopo
10-16-2001, 05:01 AM
Maybe Im seeing this wrong, if it takes HU cards why not just use that... I do see an advantage to emulating, but why cant you just prevent the updating of the card. There must be some way to prevent it from looping. Dave can Hash it, but he cant kill it.

Just my 2 cents. (well actually 1)

MrPopo

Glitched
10-16-2001, 12:29 PM
well... technically, thats about 1/8 of a cent.. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Emulation is far safer, emulation uses a "cor(e)" file to handle most of the responsibilitys of the access card, the access card itself is enslaved for its asic, and is reprogrammed in a manner that it will no longer respond to normal datastream commands. Emulation is SAFE, it has been untouchable for years, and it is proven. Hu cards are COMPLETELY open to WHATEVER directv whishes to do to them, whether it be mearly hash video, or LOOP them( which they have already done twice), or completely KILL them,(dead, not unloopable, Black Sunday), whatever they want. If it were so simple to prevent these cards from being looped, dont you think it would have already been done? :rolleyes: better yet, why dont you write the code to do that, let me know how it goes ;)

when the ECM comes, and it will be soon, we will see who is left standing, emulators, or programmed HU's. I know what my moneys on.

Glitched
10-16-2001, 12:38 PM
this thread has gone way off track from where it started.. im bailing out.

BubbaJ
10-16-2001, 01:36 PM
Whaaaaaaaaa I want my MOMMYYYYY .. Glitched is leaving the thread.. :( booohooohoooohooohoooo... .. OK now that that's over with. I do honestly and fully believe that there is no special magic in the ASIC, and that the receiver is truly the place to do some seriously rightous hacking. Whether or not you agree with me, there is circumstantial evidence (I tried my test and it failed BTW, but I remember rewinding and watching a show that was recorded while the card was out and the t60 was dialing in, I don't know what happened but at present I cannot reproduce it) In any event, that leaves the peculiarities the t60 exposed during the hashing as well as the Sony B50 that can decode a show without a card while stuck in a loop.

winter
10-16-2001, 01:48 PM
I do honestly and fully believe that there is no special magic in the ASIC....In any event, that leaves the peculiarities the t60 exposed during the hashing as well as the Sony B50 that can decode a show without a card while stuck in a loop. [/B]
You can honestly believe whatever you want however that doesn't make it true. You are the only person I have ever heard from that has ever made this claim (that the card's asic is not required to decrypt the video stream) and so far I haven't seen one iota of proof that its true, your beliefs notwithstanding.

Good luck on hacking the box without a card, you'll need it.

synthesis
10-16-2001, 10:24 PM
glitched and winter are dead on. You can't record CRAP without your card in, despite however much you may believe you remember it happening.

Emulation is the only safe way to prevent damage to your card. It isn't foolproof, dave may come up with a way to block it in the short-term, but any clone/tier script/etc will eventually end up with a looped card if dave targets them.

On the other hand, if you have an unloopable, card-protecting script, release it. Prove you know what you're talking about. 'Cause right now it sure sounds like you don't have a clue.


---------------------------------------------------
that's the thing about the net- every a$$hole has an opinion. And most of them are wrong.

_Formula
10-19-2001, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by BubbaJ
Whether or not you agree with me, there is circumstantial evidence (I tried my test and it failed BTW, but I remember rewinding and watching a show that was recorded while the card was out and the t60 was dialing in, I don't know what happened but at present I cannot reproduce it) In any event, that leaves the peculiarities the t60 exposed during the hashing as well as the Sony B50 that can decode a show without a card while stuck in a loop.
There may be an explanation for this. RAM9999 on DSSU posted in the ECM/Datastream Info forum about VA packet which are usually sent down once every 8 seconds. VideoAuthorization packets are sent to the ASIC to get the decryption key for the video. Well RAM9999 was noticing on some channels that VA packets were being sent down only once when you switched to certain channels, therefore the decryption keys weren't changing. If you changed to one of these channels and get the key, you wouldn't need the ASIC until you switched channels. This could have been what happened to you, BubbaJ.

The VA packets have since returned to normal. Here is a link to RAM9999's post on DSSU.

Video Authorization Packet weirdness (http://www.dssunderground.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=whatweknow&Number=316261&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&part=)

Fugg
10-19-2001, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by BubbaJ
I do honestly and fully believe that there is no special magic in the ASIC...


If this is true, then duplicate the asic's function.

... or, develop a cardless solution. If you have been able to determine that there is "no special magic in the ASIC", this should be very easy for you.

Hardware, software, voodoo, I don't care. If you are sucsessful, then everyone will beleive you, without question.

We await your results.

dopester
10-19-2001, 02:47 PM
The ASIC itself might contain a simple mathematical formula to do most of the things that it does, but since it is a black box, and its virtually impossible to gain any insight other than physically taking it apart gate by gate no one knows about it.

It also could use some advanced techniques, but either way the asic is not going to go away. It was placed in the cards for a reason, and unless you have a few 100k to throw at reproducing one, and another 10 mil to throw at dtv/nds lawyers when they sue you then go right ahead.. Make my day.. :)

milhouse
10-19-2001, 04:00 PM
Am I missing something, or did we forget that the serial port on the Tivo has send, receive, and ground signals only. There are no hand shaking lines to take the card reset.

Milhouse.

Fugg
10-19-2001, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by dopester
The ASIC itself might contain a simple mathematical formula to do most of the things that it does, but since it is a black box, and its virtually impossible to gain any insight other than physically taking it apart gate by gate no one knows about it.

It also could use some advanced techniques, but either way the asic is not going to go away. It was placed in the cards for a reason, and unless you have a few 100k to throw at reproducing one, and another 10 mil to throw at dtv/nds lawyers when they sue you then go right ahead.. Make my day.. :)

dopester,

I must agree with you. The point was that BubbaJ does not. No amount of disscussion from anyone seemed to be able to convince him of that. As he seems convinced of it, contrary to the facts at hand, I simply asked him to prove his theroy.

smokeman
10-23-2001, 12:00 AM
The theory is that you don't need to mess with the card reset at all over the serial in the box. I still have not had time to play with this yet, but we are hoping the card slot is an actual serial device itself, and this would be completely a software hack for the directivo unit. The only reason you would need external serial in this event would be for pitou's ability to run multiple recievers off one card. I don't think the embedded ppc chip in this thin is powerful enough for that, but I do think with some hacking, we can make this work internally.