how much information should be released?

[tangee]

Here is the seminal question I would like experienced folks' opinions on: When it comes to hacking the DirecTivo, how much information should be released, and how much is better left unsaid?

I have compiled a 10-page DirecTivo Hacking FAQ. It is nothing fancy, but it handily compiles a lot of the information posted here and some of my own discoveries. It includes a short howto with a clean, simple, tested procudure to make a directivo forever subscribed - no real Tivo/Linux knowledge required.

Now all the raw information is already out there, but as of right now it takes a hacker to figure it out, put it together, and get it working. It also takes a lot of banging your head against a lot of stupid walls, which is why I wrote the FAQ - to ease the pain of those who are willing to do their homework.

Unfortunately, this information will also help enable morons (whose posts have entertained so many) to start stamping out subscribed units. Not a desirable outcome.

This information will be more widely known anyway in a matter of months. Is it better to help the fellow aspiring hacker or better to follow in the footsteps of the code of silence?

[Lure]

1. will TiVo be hurting?
2. wil it take away motivation to come up with new hacks?
3. is making info clearer a crime?

my own answers:

on 1: The financial side of TiVo inc is not my first concern, they don't supply service in my country. If i can hack it to make it more usefull to myself: good.

on 2: no use in people inventing the same solutions over and over again, spread info. New idea's can be worked on with more people. they don't have to go over time consuming already invented hacks.

on 3: the info is already out, giving it more structure isn't doeing more harm. it saves time.

and about dumbo's that need good howto's...well if they are real dumbo's they won't find even the good structured info.

[mrblack51]

I have to agree. this forum needs a good basic howto which cover's topics NOT covered in the other tivo faq. i would like to see basic info linked to the original faq if it is usable, or at least a link for more information. this would hopefully help rid us of the 8.3 billion posts which say "you talk about hacking a sony sat-t60, can you hack a philips dsr6000?" or "how get my tivo to stop bugging me about it being expired"

while its bad to deny tivo revenue, *****s will remain *****s. as evidenced by the recent thread where i and lure made a few facicious comments about ignorance being the path to righteousness, people who want easy free stuff will go with an ultimate tv. so basically, im all for it.

[smigs]

I also agree that a good, concise, straight-forward how-to needs to be put up. I also think that it will limit newbie questions or the newbiw can be sent to the FAQ. When I got my Directtivo, I had to sign an activation agreement. This to me is a good thing. If everyone gets free TV, then dave goes out of business. SO I would encourage people to activate and at least get the lowest package. Same with Tivo.

My 2 cents!
smigs

[snOOc]

Boy, I certainly wish it was available BEFORE I hacked my Tivo!!! It will still be something very useful to have. Talk about going crosseyed. I sat for hours upon hours reading and reading and reading. Something like this would be of great use to all of us. Hacking is not for the weak-hearted...

[embeem]

I don't own a DTV not do I care much about emulation, however I do take an interest in TiVo modifications and find this to be an interesting debate.

Here's the quick list of questions I go over before releasing any of my software:

1. will the sudden popularity bring unwanted attention to you or the program/script?
2. will you be flooded with requests for clarification (spam) by people who are better off not touching the stuff?
3. is there potential for someone to unknowingly misuse information and make things worse or ruin it for the rest?

As it is it's a rather obscure group -- well as obscure as you can be with vadimr plugging the site in his posts -- that's into emulation (stealing service). The fact that this is a private board does not mean that it's not being watched by TiVo or DTV.

A HOWTO on the subject is sure to gain attention and you have to decide if you want to to take the risks and become a hereo to these folks or if you want to play it safe. Obviously asking here is much the same as me going into a Linux IRC channel and asking if anyone likes Linux -- it's ever so slightly biased, of course they're going to cheer you on.

If you provide information beyond how to gain a bash prompt, in other words if you post instructions on bypassing the service then you'll most certainly gain attention; both by neophytes (newbies) so thankful that they plug your site and by company officials. You'll want to make sure you're legally in the clear, although these folks are cheer you on now they certainly won't be paying your court fees. It really doesn't make a difference if you wrote the material yourself or not, you're making it available and are hence responsible -- need proof? look at the number of people pulled into court for linking DeCSS -- there's a reason all the emu sites are hosted outside the US.

[Lure]

If we take risc in being procecuted by TiVo... what does a site as 9thtee has for a risc then. They offer info and hardware for sale. Don't tell me they share their profite with TiVo Inc.

In case They DO, well then I've some bussiness propatitions to make too.:eek:

So when does TiVo officially take a stand on this matter? I'm sure they could make money with more than just selling subscriptions.

:D :D :D :rolleyes:

[vleisbom]

Just sent it to me so I can make an informed decision :)

[rusten]

I have a simple answer: just remind people to keep their service!

The above suggestion may sound stupid, however, you have to remember the other side of the coin: most people aren't so concerned about "hacking" their TiVo to save money, they have more critical motivations.

Many Tivo hacks are for use outside of Tivo service area, many for privacy, some because they don't feel the need to hook their box up to a telephone line for purposes of convenience. In some cases, it's simply because Tivo's "lifetime" licensing is lame (based on hardware rather than the individual) - what right do they have to charge an individual a second "lifetime" subscription for upgrading?

In my case, having a DirecTivo, I don't want DirecTV spying on what I watch. I still have a DirecTV subscription as well as Tivo subscription, my system just never dials out.

My suggestion to you would be to place these motivations above the FAQ as the reasons someone might want to use your information. Basically, I'm talking about a legitimate disclaimer. And if you are concerned about the *****s, that's no problem either, primarily because (a) they stay over at AVS - not that I'm knocking AVS, but it's much more widely marketed (b) a FAQ reduces the posts in this forum that isn't intended for those people -and- (c) you can always put something in there that will scare users who don't know what they are doing.

I've used this exact tactic with people asking how to hack DirecTV, simply by telling them "sure it's easy, but do you really want to risk [insert reason here]".

This is much easier with DirecTivo, because you could simply write "REMEMBER: If you aren't very familiar with what you are doing, the chances are good you will destroy your Tivo unit all together. This FAQ is recommened only for users already knowledgeable with both hardware and software"

BTW - Can you PM me the FAQ, I would love to look at it!

HTH,
Rusten

[rusten]

Taking my above idea a bit further, you could always use something like PVR Hack used (only a little more threatening) at:
http://pvrhack.sonnik.com/tivo/areyouready.asp

This discourages people who couldn't figure this stuff out on their own.

[Lure]

rusten wrote
http://pvrhack.sonnik.com/tivo/areyouready.asp
Your score was a 79%: so how do I explain the other 21%... will i be electricuted 1 out of 5 times when I open the box or wil I have to buy a new tivo every.....hehehe

I forgot about that test... I took it be for I started. Can't remember what I scored back then but I was prepared to take the risc of losing my tivo... In that case all other questions are a waist of time.
But about the reasons you give for people that are hacking their unit... for people out side the service area: your right. For the others... hmmm some odd balls will hack for fun and the reasons you give but that will be a minority. most of them will try to get cheap service.(0$)

I don't understand people that are willing to take a risc on losing their unit while they only pay a couple of $$ per month for a full working one.

I buy the service asa it will be available here. but I must admite that in that case i still would hack one or two options to my conviniance.

[SuperVHS]

Another thing to consider is how will TiVo's react to your hacks.

If they are simple, like adding disk space or a freespace calculation script there is likely to be no reaction.

If it is a way to extract video, hmmmm they might take steps to prevent that.

If it is a way around one of their fixes (like changing the files to immutable) they may well create a new way to get the result they want.

If it is a way to get free subscription data from TiVo (as opposed to an alternate data source), they are likely to take note and adjust their service to prevent that.

If you release a hack while TiVo is beta testing new s/w, they have the opportunity to react and change that software before a final release -- perhaps making your efforts worth less.

Just my 2 cents worth.......

[BubbaJ]

whoohoo..!!!!! I just got -8% on the test :)

... I've never been in a negative percentile before..
does this mean that I should quit messing with stuff.. :(
FYI, only thing checked was often shocked..
can YOU get lower?


The Votes are in
Your score was a

-8%

This means that:

You're probably not ready to upgrade your TiVo. I'd suggest doing some research, try maybe learning some linux or adding a hard drive to your PC for experience.



...

hold on here, I just rigged the test, and it's not really telling me anything different, it should say Whoa dude, you rigged the test, or OK you really need to go live in a bubble or something..

The Votes are in
Your score was a

-64103%

This means that:

You're probably not ready to upgrade your TiVo. I'd suggest doing some research, try maybe learning some linux or adding a hard drive to your PC for experience.


..

and of course the other side.. this should say that I'm the god of the hack (or that I've cheated)... but it doesn't just that I'm ready.. <sniff>

The Votes are in
Your score was a

64117%

This means that:

You're ready to attempt an upgrade of TiVo. As always, make sure you fully understand the details and have read as much applicable information as possible.

[tangee]

Ok, if any intermediate/advanced users would like to beta test the FAQ, email me at tangee@pirateden.com.

[tangee]

Thanks to those who posted and volunteered to beta test.

I went over to AVS and did a bunch of reading there. Those guys have got religion!

I don't agree with all that, but it did dawn on me more fully how controversial service hacking is. Much as it pains me to do it, I am removing all the service hacking material from my FAQ and will post what's left.

Thanks for your input folks.