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thundermustard
05-23-2005, 03:54 PM
I am fairly new to TiVO hacking but I have learned a lot in a short time. I got version 4 running on a DTiVO with TivoWebPlus, FTP, etc.
I am trying to get an unhacked version of 6.2 to support HMO.
But what I don't understand is this patchwork of information that is put out about hacks.
Obviously it isn't a "I did all the work, you figure it out" mentality otherwise you wouldn't link to the files. But there is no clearinghouse for everything. You are directed to about 3 threads, each PAGES long (usually the second page has deterioted to guesses at what last night's Lost episode meant).
This stuff changes so fast I think what is happening is people are armed with three different web pages, each refering to something that may or may not be relative.
For some reason this community seems to like it that way, and that is what I don't understand. Granted I have just scratched the surface on this stuff, but following the step by step guide, I have gone from 100% clueless to knowing many linux commands and what they do, but not enough yet.
So maybe someone can explain why the "easter egg" type help you get on this forum.
Now assuming someone is in a helpful mood. I need some guidance.
Since I was successful in getting version 4 running with all the necessary hacks to transfer files, I just assumed I could start at the instructions for installing the image at
http://www.weethet.nl/english/tivo_dtv2_os4hackrid.php
I followed it down to installing in the DTiVO.
I got caught in the Welcome loop.
Is there anywhere that someone can find all the info for getting HMO going under 6.2?
Standing by to be flamed.

JJBliss
05-23-2005, 04:08 PM
Moved to Newbie

newbie
05-23-2005, 04:13 PM
You're using 4.0 hacking instructions to try to hack 6.2. Unless you understand what you're doing, and you don't, you should find and use the instructions for exactly what you're trying to do.

Gunnyman
05-23-2005, 04:18 PM
6.2 is easy to get HMO on.
hack the kernel
get telnet and ftp going
ftp over the hacks for super patch and set_mrv_name.
run them via bash.
??
Profit.

thundermustard
05-23-2005, 05:13 PM
You're using 4.0 hacking instructions to try to hack 6.2. Unless you understand what you're doing, and you don't, you should find and use the instructions for exactly what you're trying to do.

Exhibit A in the kind of help you get on this site. Not, let me help you with what you are not understanding. Why help when belittling accomplishes so much?

What does this post acheive, letting me know it won't work (sorry beat you to that). I took the one clearly written instruction and tried to configure it to my needs. When that didn't work I turned to this forum and asked, "why do you guys make learning so difficult"? Why shouldn't the kernal hack work? It seems like it should to me.

It is almost like you take pleasure in showing your superiority. Anything is easy if you have done it a few times. I am an air traffic controller, it is "easy" vectoring a heavy to the IAF of the localizer behind a Dash-8, just tell him to "dirty it up" and tell the prop to "barberpole it". But that doesn't mean you could do it, and if you started working with me I would take the time to explain it from scratch instead of letting you kill someone. I would not use slang terms right off the bat that mean nothing to you. Good grief!

Gunneyman-you are generally a lot more helpful than others but your post:

6.2 is easy to get HMO on.
hack the kernel
get telnet and ftp going
ftp over the hacks for super patch and set_mrv_name.
run them via bash.

Is basically useless. Not one instruction or even guidance (how about a link to something that works?), don't you think you are just setting up for more questions. I do understand each instruction but isn't it obvious from my post that I am having trouble getting to that point?

I enjoy learning to do things, I would enjoy that and get more out of it than HMO. But you guys make it downright not fun. This isn't the freaking Skull and Bones super secret club, ease up folks.

JJBliss
05-23-2005, 05:23 PM
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42325

Gunnyman
05-23-2005, 05:44 PM
plain and simply put and I can't believe I am saying this:
IF my simple instructions for what is needed require further explanation, you haven't done enough reading up on how to hack a tivo.
The stickies are there to educate you as to how this stuff works, how easily it can be done, and how easly it can be broken.
Spoonfeeding you helps you get what you want done and that's great. TCF is a spoonfeeding site. This place is a different animal alltogether.
This place is a hacker community. Lots of people here break their tivos on purpose to see how they work. If you aren't willing to learn a little on your own, to add to the collective, then you need to find a new place to play.
I used to HATE this place and how "high and mighty" people seemed to be, until I gained a bit of knowledge by reading, then breaking my Tivos myself.

I'm a helpful guy, but the ration of crap I get from people who say gimme gimme gimme has helped me understand the attitude here.

thundermustard
05-23-2005, 05:55 PM
I understand each of the lines in your reply. But you don't say anything about finding the accurate, up to the date way to accomplish this. A search might have me using the Sleeper ISO, good idea? Not really, that is an old out of date method.
I repeat, I have had version 4 with a bash, able to transfer files via FTP and serial cable. I am not without some knowledge.
But a response to a question, with not one answer, (read your reply) is a waste of your time and mine.
You guys really gotta get over this boy's club mentality.
"Do a google search..." OK, that takes me to this whacked forum of old and new info, none of it logically presented.
Screw it.

Gunnyman
05-23-2005, 06:04 PM
if you have had access to a bash prompt, then my instructtions should not have been that foreign to you.
Apply a killhdinitrc kernel (version 3.1.5 will do nicely) to hda3 and hda6 on your tivo.
call up tivoftpd and tnlited with your rc.sysinit.author file.
reboot and ftp to the tivo to move hacks over
execute them via telnet at the bash prompt.

cheer
05-23-2005, 06:13 PM
I understand each of the lines in your reply. But you don't say anything about finding the accurate, up to the date way to accomplish this. A search might have me using the Sleeper ISO, good idea? Not really, that is an old out of date method.
I repeat, I have had version 4 with a bash, able to transfer files via FTP and serial cable. I am not without some knowledge.
But a response to a question, with not one answer, (read your reply) is a waste of your time and mine.
You guys really gotta get over this boy's club mentality.
"Do a google search..." OK, that takes me to this whacked forum of old and new info, none of it logically presented.
Screw it.
So I suppose this thread: http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41347 didn't catch your eye?

In actuality, I can't imagine how a search brought you to Sleeper unless you're searching blindly. And let's be honest: the stickies are not hard to find, either, and would have steered you away from something like Sleeper as well.

Nobody here has the time to repeat the same answer over and over to people. You will find a lot of useful information and assistance here, but nobody is going to hand you anything.

JJBliss
05-23-2005, 06:42 PM
:confused:

Has ANYBODY seen post #6?

mrblack51
05-23-2005, 06:45 PM
:confused:

Has ANYBODY seen post #6?

reading the existing info, whether via a search or via links provided by others, would destroy the OP's argument

PlainBill
05-23-2005, 06:49 PM
:confused:

Has ANYBODY seen post #6?
I routinely direct people to that thread, as well as this (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41347) one. However, much as you cannot force a horse to drink, you cannot force a troll to learn.

PlainBill

Thinkdiff
05-23-2005, 07:17 PM
The point of this board is to give people that want to learn about tivo hacking the ability to do so. If you are looking for a turn key solution that is dumbed down and handed to you, you getting into the wrong hobby. I'll admit, when I first came here, that's exactly what I was looking for. I found the TiVoScripts ISO (which is now basically garbage and I understand why). After running tivoscripts, monte'ing my HDVR2, and about a month later, ending up with a blank HD, I figured out that this was not the way to do it. So I read for months all the threads here and learn exactly what each part of the hacking process does and why it needs to be done. A little bit of reading will go a long way. You should NEVER hack your TiVo unless you understand exactly what is going on "under the hood". Would you try and replace your transmission if you never had a day of experience in auto repair? of course not, tivo hacking is the same way.

satjunkee
05-23-2005, 10:33 PM
For what it's worth thundermustard, I was of the same mindset as you. I just wanted it to work...now. Show me the commands and let me type them in.

Instead, I read a LOT, broke my tivo several times, and pulled most of my hair out. At the end of it all, I learned a great deal that I never would have if I had used a packaged product. My point is, it's worth the frustration to be knowledgable enough to fix your tivo when something does go wrong.

I found it helpful to go back and look at the steps in the 4.x and previous guides and try to investigate and understand what each step is doing and why they are important. Much of the same techniques are used in hacking 6.2. That said, don't try to copy everything in the 4.x guide and assume that it will work exactly when doing a 6.2 hack.

thundermustard
05-24-2005, 12:07 AM
So I suppose this thread: http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41347 didn't catch your eye?


Yes, that 48 page long thread caught my eye, it deals mostly with people saying "I don't have the upgrade yet". Zero use to me, I have 6.2 via the AW small image. I am trying to hack that to open up HMO. Not whining cause my system hasn't gotten the update yet.

Spydertech
05-24-2005, 12:26 AM
Yes, that 48 page long thread caught my eye, it deals mostly with people saying "I don't have the upgrade yet". Zero use to me, I have 6.2 via the AW small image. I am trying to hack that to open up HMO. Not whining cause my system hasn't gotten the update yet.


Now how about that attitude? You missed JJBliss' very fine answer to your question. That or you chose not to respond.. :(

Then you skip by another 6 hours of posts to find one to complain about.. tsk tsk, Not very nice.

The thread JJBLiss pointed you to walks you right through getting your system up and going. Once that is completed, then worry about HMO.

How many guides have been written that have become either outdated, or were just plain wrong to begin with? What about the myriad of questions that pop up when people misread the instructions, mistype something, or just plain use the wrong the guide?

Most of these guys here have been around for a very long time, and are mostly interested in new developments., not hand-holding a bunch of people who are in over their heads to start with.

How many times has someone asked "What's a Bash prompt?" Or, "Can I folow the instructions with the Tivo drive in the PC?"

Well - like PlainBill said
However, much as you cannot force a horse to drink, you cannot force a troll to learn.

So - instead of asking for more guides, learn what you can. Once you have it all figured out, feel free to post your guide somewhere.

Hey, that's my opinion. I could be wrong.

Spydertech

alldeadhomiez
05-24-2005, 02:15 AM
Yes, that 48 page long thread caught my eye, it deals mostly with people saying "I don't have the upgrade yet". Zero use to me, I have 6.2 via the AW small image. I am trying to hack that to open up HMO. Not whining cause my system hasn't gotten the update yet.

It's only 18 pages long if you select "40 posts per page" in usercp.

Regardless... you will benefit from more reading, and less complaining. You are not making friends this way.

Moved to Sewer.

psxboy
05-24-2005, 02:43 PM
You're using 4.0 hacking instructions to try to hack 6.2. Unless you understand what you're doing, and you don't, you should find and use the instructions for exactly what you're trying to do.
"I'm trying to do the "Perform your own lobotamy" steps, but I can't seem to find the 'left ventricle' anywhere. And what's all this stuff about attaching the other end of the artery to complete the bypass???"

-psxboy

idoco
05-24-2005, 03:40 PM
"I'm trying to do the "Perform your own lobotamy" steps, but I can't seem to find the 'left ventricle' anywhere. And what's all this stuff about attaching the other end of the artery to complete the bypass???"

-psxboy

Actually, surgery is easier than hacking your TIVO. If you screw up a little in surgery, your body will usually still work and has a way of repairing itself. Screw up on your TIVO and it won't even start! :rolleyes:

Idoco

cheer
05-24-2005, 06:08 PM
Actually, surgery is easier than hacking your TIVO. If you screw up a little in surgery, your body will usually still work and has a way of repairing itself. Screw up on your TIVO and it won't even start! :rolleyes:

Idoco
Hah! That's pretty good. Of course, the Tivo has a way of repairing itself too, but we turn it off with killhdinitrd. :)

And it depends on what you mean by screw up a little, I suppose. I made a typo in rc.sysinit.author, and my DTivo booted fine (though my hack didn't load). On the other hand, if screwing up a little means nicking a bowel (as happened to an acquaintance of mine)...badbadbad.

psxboy
05-24-2005, 06:22 PM
Uhm... maybe you missed the subtle humor in my last post:

lobotamy = brain surgery
'left ventricle', 'bypass', etc = heart surgery

All in an effort to comment on using a guide that isn't for what you intend to do...

I dunno. Maybe I need a labotamy. :)

-psxboy

RavenStL
05-24-2005, 10:57 PM
Just solder those two wires together.

How?

With a soldering iron...

O I see those cool ones on tv. ..... Got one

Now what?

See #1

yea, but how.

First tin the leads and then solder them together.

Whats tinning the leads?

OI VEY


I dont get in the way of my wife in the kitchen. Otherwise I will have a pampered chef knife into my thigh. This relates to this forum well, which I can agree with.

I really dont know why I replied, I guess a situation at work brings my mental thoughts together with the forums.

Whatever, back to trolling and learning. to 6.2 or not to 6.2, that IS the question.

Roger Dylan
05-25-2005, 05:23 AM
I dont get in the way of my wife in the kitchen. Otherwise I will have a pampered chef knife into my thigh. This relates to this forum well

I would think the superior levels of testosterone would make such an explanation for the catty behavior unlikely. I would hope, anyway.

I think it's more that these people, some of the more catty of the elders, are continually frustrated. Understanding poorly posed questions is very hard work. Asking good good probing follow-up questions to clarify those original inquiries is very hard work. Even when you understand the question, formulating a good, meaningful reply is very hard work. This is supposed to be fun, but the elders of this forum, some of them, seem continually to feel they are unfairly burdened with very hard work. Their striking out in anger against the perceived cause of such demands on their lives is somewhat understandable.

A wise man once said here (I'm paraphrasing) "If you don't want to be bothered answering what you consider to be a dumb newbie question, DON'T ANSWER!" Bonus points to anyone who can identify that wise man and his position in the management of this forum.

His lesson has apparently been forgotten by many.

mrblack51
05-25-2005, 01:10 PM
I would think the superior levels of testosterone would make such an explanation for the catty behavior unlikely. I would hope, anyway.

I think it's more that these people, some of the more catty of the elders, are continually frustrated. Understanding poorly posed questions is very hard work. Asking good good probing follow-up questions to clarify those original inquiries is very hard work. Even when you understand the question, formulating a good, meaningful reply is very hard work. This is supposed to be fun, but the elders of this forum, some of them, seem continually to feel they are unfairly burdened with very hard work. Their striking out in anger against the perceived cause of such demands on their lives is somewhat understandable.

A wise man once said here (I'm paraphrasing) "If you don't want to be bothered answering what you consider to be a dumb newbie question, DON'T ANSWER!" Bonus points to anyone who can identify that wise man and his position in the management of this forum.

His lesson has apparently been forgotten by many.

the problem whith the OP is that it implies conspiracy...basically saying that the one guide didnt work for him, and why arent there more guides...and that there is a conspiracy to keep knowledge away from newbies and such.

the reasons behind the "anti-guide" attitude that some people feel exists have been discussed ad-nauseum (sp?). in the end, the situation is very clear: use whats available. if you dont like whats available, dont bitch, but rather learn and then make your learning available. if you want to make stuff available in a "guide" form, follow the requests of the forum leaders.

as much as others might think that just dumping commands is faster and better, that is simply not the case. as much as people might want a 1.2.3. solution, its not out there. learning is required, as this is a hobby.

alldeadhomiez
05-25-2005, 01:32 PM
This is supposed to be fun

"Fun." Let's think about that for a second.

"Fun" is seeing something new posted when you visit this forum. New hacks, new problems, new patches. It's what keeps people coming back for more. It's the motivation for opening your box again and again to tinker with things.

"Fun" isn't wading through piles of redundant questions and rude comments by people who can't be bothered to learn the basics on their own, or to find out that their problem/concern has been addressed dozens of times already. These people add no value whatsoever to the community.

The Only Druid
05-25-2005, 09:41 PM
"Fun." Let's think about that for a second.

"Fun" is seeing something new posted when you visit this forum. New hacks, new problems, new patches. It's what keeps people coming back for more. It's the motivation for opening your box again and again to tinker with things.

"Fun" isn't wading through piles of redundant questions and rude comments by people who can't be bothered to learn the basics on their own, or to find out that their problem/concern has been addressed dozens of times already. These people add no value whatsoever to the community.
Not to sound at all sycophantic, but I couldn't put it any better. I stop by this forum every day or two, spend 10-15 minutes looking through new posts and (if I can) answering a few questions. I just wish there was a way to communicate the true goals of this forum to new posters, before letting them post those questions that discourage so many of us.

Roger Dylan
05-25-2005, 11:58 PM
I just wish there was a way to communicate the true goals of this forum to new posters, before letting them post those questions that discourage so many of us.

I don't know VBulletin at all. Maybe it is possible to have posting priviledges contingent on reading (or at least scrolling through and acknowledging) a brief statement of those goals and principles.

Followed up with maybe a screen restating the need to read first before posting, which a new members' first 3 post requests would cycle through, and again have to be actively acknowledged, before the posting "takes."

Or maybe (or additionally) there is a new location established for "First Posts." New inexperienced members would be encouraged to post their first few questions ONLY there (or maybe its automatic that all new questions go only there until a member has three posts). Experienced members with low discouragement levels could avoid that location altogether. A volunteer moderator or moderators who are not quite so easily discouraged would comb that location regularly and route worthy questions to the newbie forum or elsewhere.

These are likely unworkable ideas. But maybe, if the forum is in such horrible shape, some effort needs to go into a process of soliciting ideas for improvement from members who _do_ know the vBulletin software and what is possible.

The existing effort to solve the problems you allude to, mostly insulting newbies, is not working and has created a poisonous atmosphere.

RavenStL
05-26-2005, 12:36 AM
I was relating my frustration at work as the same of the Moderators of this forum. I mean I do some pretty technical work and I just HATE when the boss brings in Mr. Wet behind the ears and expects me to do my job and train someone how to solder.

I never used linux till I wanted to hack my Tivo. So much I still need to learn.

So I do feel for the newbs but everyone goes through bootcamp, and noone comes out saying how easy it was. In the words of my father, get used to it.

JJBliss
05-26-2005, 09:37 AM
Or maybe (or additionally) there is a new location established for "First Posts." New inexperienced members would be encouraged to post their first few questions ONLY there (or maybe its automatic that all new questions go only there until a member has three posts).
Been tried elsewhere and failed. Even the spammers over at TCF have figured out that all you need to do is post "Oh Cool", or "OK - WOW" three times in any forum, and then you can post a link. It's silly. But it shows that you're thinking of way to improve the quality of the participants in this forum. That's nice, however, that should not be your only contribution to this forum. During a cursory review of your posting histtory, it seems that you focus an awful lot of time on the management and improvement of this forum's atmosphere. Since you have so many good ideas, and seem so willing to develop a "better place", please do so. I would be happy to see your new forum when it is complete.


Experienced members with low discouragement levels could avoid that location altogether. A volunteer moderator or moderators who are not quite so easily discouraged would comb that location regularly and route worthy questions to the newbie forum or elsewhere.
I'm not sure if anyone else reads into the saracasm. I just point it out so that any other moderator who was wondering if I noticed it or not will know that I did



These are likely unworkable ideas. But maybe, if the forum is in such horrible shape, some effort needs to go into a process of soliciting ideas for improvement from members who _do_ know the vBulletin software and what is possible.
Since the board is far from in horrible shape, I'm not overly concerned.


The existing effort to solve the problems you allude to, mostly insulting newbies, is not working and has created a poisonous atmosphere.
It IS working. It has always worked. It works very very well. Neither you, nor Will, nor Bubblelamp or any of the other detractors can convince any significant number of the 10,000+ members that it isn't working.

You seem unhappy here. I remind you that you are not forced to visit here. If you choose to since we hold all the pertinent Tivo information, then you are welcome to. Until you begin to contribute to the wealth of informaiton contained at dealdatabase, I suggest you curtail your critique.

Namco
05-30-2005, 06:00 AM
When I started studying C++ I thought I had a learning disability. Somewhere around the abstract concept of heaps and memory allocation, the book lost me because the idea wasn't very clear to me. Since most every book on programming is laid out in a similar semi-linear fashion (chapter 1 hello world, chapter 2 for/if statements, chapter 3 structs/heaps/protien folding), nothing makes sense to me after the first couple of chapters and I drop the subject.

I want to learn like how I learned html or DOS, by reading the appendix. Show me a chart listing all the commands, what they all do, and their switches, then I learn it immediately. To learn things I need an overview of ALL the information, then I can soak it in.

Linux, programming languages, conventional language, tivo hacking, and Tom Clancy novels all progress with a kind of stingy withholding of information that I can't figgin' stand.

I've come to these forums dozens of times with a certain goal in mind and can soon find some threads relating to said goal, however it's just very frustrating reading pages and pages and pages of posts all referencing procedures, acronyms, and terminology only explained in threads containing pages and pages of acronyms and greek terminology. I have a feeling that many here have a background in Linux, Unix, or programming and are already accustomed to learning piecemeal, chapter by chapter.

[/bitching] Anyway, even though this place is a mess, does not fit my style of learning(with a touch of ADD), and is unfriendly to noobs, I realize there is a ton of great information here. Just don't go perpetrating the idea that frustrated posters are trolls just because they don't want to break their tivos and read 150 pages of posts to fix them. :eek: :D

The Only Druid
05-30-2005, 08:35 AM
When I started studying C++ I thought I had a learning disability. Somewhere around the abstract concept of heaps and memory allocation, the book lost me because the idea wasn't very clear to me. Since most every book on programming is laid out in a similar semi-linear fashion (chapter 1 hello world, chapter 2 for/if statements, chapter 3 structs/heaps/protien folding), nothing makes sense to me after the first couple of chapters and I drop the subject.
Seee, here's the thing: that means the problem is with you. If there are quite literally millions of people who learned C++ (or any given subject) from those books, the problem is you. You're not being flexible enough.


I want to learn like how I learned html or DOS, by reading the appendix. Show me a chart listing all the commands, what they all do, and their switches, then I learn it immediately. To learn things I need an overview of ALL the information, then I can soak it in.
Well, among other things you can get such a listing for Linux.


Linux, programming languages, conventional language, tivo hacking, and Tom Clancy novels all progress with a kind of stingy withholding of information that I can't figgin' stand.
Again, this is you complaining that you cannot understand a format understood by every succesful member here. Are you suggesting that the forum change itself to support your problems, even though its worked fine for years before you?


[/bitching] Anyway, even though this place is a mess, does not fit my style of learning(with a touch of ADD), and is unfriendly to noobs, I realize there is a ton of great information here. Just don't go perpetrating the idea that frustrated posters are trolls just because they don't want to break their tivos and read 150 pages of posts to fix them. :eek: :D
Yeah, they are trolls. I'm so convinced of this that I fully admit my first post - politely asking for a combined guide - qualified me as a troll until I stopped asking for someone else to do my work. You're being a troll because you're insulting the board (calling it a mess) without providing any assistance in fixing it, and ignoring the fact that it's worked for so many of us.

You need to realize that if something works for so many people, but not you, the problem is you.

cheer
05-30-2005, 12:35 PM
(regarding people begging for guides or wanting everything handed to them) Yeah, they are trolls. I'm so convinced of this that I fully admit my first post - politely asking for a combined guide - qualified me as a troll until I stopped asking for someone else to do my work. You're being a troll because you're insulting the board (calling it a mess) without providing any assistance in fixing it, and ignoring the fact that it's worked for so many of us.

You need to realize that if something works for so many people, but not you, the problem is you.
I'm probably hair splitting at this point, but so be it. To my way of thinking, that's not trolling, that's just noobs wanting things done for them. You can call that laziness or a lack of intelligence or whatever, but if (for example) you truly wanted such a guide, you weren't trolling.

Trolling would be someone who knows better deliberately posting "man this place sucks, why can't they just write a guide" not because s/he wants a guide but because s/he wants to stir things up. As an example, if I go to the extraction support forum and post "oh hell, why can't we just deinterlace everything to make ti simpler," I'm trolling (specifically for FredThompson). :) On the other hand, if I post, "Ugh, I'm tired of trying to figure out the best way to deinterlace and/or IVTC my Tivo vids for Xbox playback. Fred, can you write me a guide?" then I'm just being lazy.

Despite all this I agree with your main point, and I further add that there's no way this board could be anything but what it is. Would it be better if all the information was organized, indexed, cleaned up with outdated information removed, etc.? Sure! And if this board were a commercial offering with a hefty subscription fee, etc., one might be in a position to request this.

But (as has been posted over and over) this is a hobbyist forum. It's daunting. As you go back to find out elemental information, it can be tough to determine what is out of date and what is not. Nevertheless, there is so much good stuff here that it is well worth the effort, and the format allows contributions from so many people.

Which is why there's so much information here in the first place.

PlainBill
05-30-2005, 01:11 PM
Seee, here's the thing: that means the problem is with you. If there are quite literally millions of people who learned C++ (or any given subject) from those books, the problem is you. You're not being flexible enough.


Well, among other things you can get such a listing for Linux.


Again, this is you complaining that you cannot understand a format understood by every succesful member here. Are you suggesting that the forum change itself to support your problems, even though its worked fine for years before you?


Yeah, they are trolls. I'm so convinced of this that I fully admit my first post - politely asking for a combined guide - qualified me as a troll until I stopped asking for someone else to do my work. You're being a troll because you're insulting the board (calling it a mess) without providing any assistance in fixing it, and ignoring the fact that it's worked for so many of us.

You need to realize that if something works for so many people, but not you, the problem is you.
Matt, I'm always glad to disagree with a future lawyer.

I think we can take it as a given that the organization of the information here is 'broken'. People learn in different ways; some can take a book such as the C++ text Namco describes and come up with a good grasp of the subject. I have learned perhaps a dozen programming languages ranging from hand-coding assembly for the 6502, assemblers for various other processors, Pascal, Fortran, and several different report generators, and I have been able to truly learn only by doing the actual programming.

Can the information be better presented? Certainly. WILL it be improved? Probably not. First of all, just compiling a list of threads would be a monumental task. Even worse, everything is changing so dynamically that just keeping it up to date would be a full time job.

Namco:

As far as seeing a 'one size fits all' guide, I'm not sure it would be possible even with the active support of EVERYONE here. Recall Hinsdale's HowTo. It is a very lengthy, well written document on upgrading the hard drive in any TiVo. I would say that anyone who can change a hard drive can use this one guide to upgrade the drive in any TiVo. And it covers (almost) everything. (IIRC, it doesn't cover limits on partition sizes, swap partitions, and limits on number of expansions).

Now compare the complexity that to even the simplest hack - lets say hacking 6.2 by installing a killhdinitrd kernel, creating rc.sysinit.author, updating bootpage, and installing the Series 2 binaries. Any guide targeting the same audience will have to reference the Hinsdale guide CORRECTING the omissions, mounting drives in Linux, using bootpage (both versions) and killhdinitrd, copying files, expanding a tarball, editing, etc, etc, etc. It would make the Hinsdale guide look simple by comparison.

If you think this is an exaggeration, think of a simple task we all do every day - say going to the bathroom. Now imagine a guide giving explicit instructions to someone who has never been in a bathroom. And make it general enough to include private bathrooms, public facilities with no door, and pay toilets. Don't forget zippers. And better cover both urinals and bidets - we don't dare exclude the ladies.

PlainBill

Namco
05-30-2005, 01:54 PM
Seee, here's the thing: that means the problem is with you. If there are quite literally millions of people who learned C++ (or any given subject) from those books, the problem is you. You're not being flexible enough.


Well, among other things you can get such a listing for Linux.


Again, this is you complaining that you cannot understand a format understood by every succesful member here. Are you suggesting that the forum change itself to support your problems, even though its worked fine for years before you?


Yeah, they are trolls. I'm so convinced of this that I fully admit my first post - politely asking for a combined guide - qualified me as a troll until I stopped asking for someone else to do my work. You're being a troll because you're insulting the board (calling it a mess) without providing any assistance in fixing it, and ignoring the fact that it's worked for so many of us.

You need to realize that if something works for so many people, but not you, the problem is you.

Yes, I know the problem is with me. I have diminished ability to learn the information as presented here. Just voicing my frustration with it.

I do want to write a guide that makes sense to me and has succinct info in it, but I have to learn the stuff first ;)

mrblack51
05-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Yes, I know the problem is with me. I have diminished ability to learn the information as presented here. Just voicing my frustration with it.

I do want to write a guide that makes sense to me and has succinct info in it, but I have to learn the stuff first ;)

i understand your frustration. as with anyone, there are many things which can make tivo haking or any other endeavor difficult. however, it is your responsibility to figure out what needs to be done for you in order to get what you want done accomplished. sure, things could be easier if X was the case, but its not. we all have our challenges, and we all have to overcome them. if you cant figure stuff out, then you werent meant to play with it.

whorff
05-31-2005, 12:29 PM
Be patient, 6.2 just came out.
Their will be plenty of guides and plenty of help.
Hush Hush err... Try hacking an XBOX...

I give TIVO and DirecTV a lot of credit for letting the hackers have such a free reign.

***My fear is that HMO may be an additional fee for service in some up and coming release, at that point it would be unethical for us to use it free of charge.

The price we pay for having an un-hacked official HMO release or a sad day indeed?***

K.I.S.S, is a good philosophy and may garner better results. :cool:

Frank,

brndnkjns
06-03-2005, 02:50 AM
I've read this thread and many others and understand the hesitancy to spoon feed people the answers here. If the time involved spoon feeding newbies creates frustration for those with the knowledge, why not charge to spoon feed the newbies?

The problem for some of the newbies is that hacking isn't fun for us. We don't really want to learn it. We just want our Tivo to have great features like HMO, etc.

And, since some newbies aren't willing to pay the price (time) for scouring the forums, why not offer your services (handholding) at a monetary price? It would soften the grief in answering stupid questions and it would relieve us of the grief in asking them.

I know I'd be happy to pay someone to tutor me so that I had some context when I read these forums.

I'd be suprised if many of the other frustrated newbies aren't in the same boat - tell us the price for 1:1 tutoring and let us make the cost assessment. I'd much rather pay and have someone answer me directly, rather than burn up another night on thread after thread that I don't understand.

Any takers?

mrblack51
06-03-2005, 03:15 AM
your "pay to be handheld" idea has been discussed before, but has never flew (at least as far as i know).


The problem for some of the newbies is that hacking isn't fun for us. We don't really want to learn it. We just want our Tivo to have great features like HMO, etc.

wow...im not sure you could miss the point of this forum in a more significant way. think about it - if you arent into doing hands on work, would you really go to an import tuner car site or a diy woodworking site and expect someone else to do all the work for you? i doubt it. whether people want to admit it or not, this is a diy tivo hacking site - we hack tivos, we discuss techniques, we develop new and interesting ways to hack the tivo into various behaviors. if you arent interested in doing it, go and buy a device that does what you want - and if one doesnt exist, either learn to hack it as others have or deal with whats there.

there are many trade offs that are out there, but if what you want is hmo and extraction, get a standalone box running 7.x software. you get hmo and tivotogo, allowing you to burn your content. want satellite direct recording with all those features? tough. either enjoy whats out there, or learn to hack your box. shoot, there are plenty of ebay skeez's that will try to sell you "instructions", hacked tivos, or "upgrade" disks. if thats what you want, go put your effort there. but dont complain here when it breaks...talk to your "dealer". and if you dont like what tivo has to offer, there are a number of other products with varrying feature sets which can meet specific aspects of whatever needs you have.

as much as people would like to think that it is, tivo hacking is not a spectator sport. its not a one time "zap" and its done. if you dont learn, then you will be screwed when things change. if you search the forums, you will see plenty of threads where people got screwed cause they didnt learn - the sleeper iso thread's size alone is an indicator of the type of issues that occur when people dont learn.

in short, like it or not, you need to learn what you are doing - at least the basics - in order to hack your tivo. if not, you are simply kidding yourself and setting yourself up for failure. either learn the basics of what you are doing, or enjoy your stock tivo.

brndnkjns
06-03-2005, 10:28 AM
think about it - if you arent into doing hands on work, would you really go to an import tuner car site or a diy woodworking site and expect someone else to do all the work for you?

You missed my point, and lumped me in with all the "do it for me" people. I NEVER said that I wanted someone to do work for me. I just asked if I could pay for tutoring services. So, to use your analogy, if I didn't know anything about import cars or woodworking, I would find myself a mentor. Or, I'd purchase a specific book to tackle the specific task. I wouldn't spend 5 years in automotive school to learn how to change my oil filter. I'd pay someone to show me specifically how to do that one thing. What I'm asking is the same thing.


go and buy a device that does what you want - and if one doesnt exist, either learn to hack it as others have or deal with whats there.

Taking your analogy a step further -- if that oil filter needs to be changed, I wouldn't go buy a new car to get the job done. I just want to figure out how to change the oil filter. The difference is many of the newbies (myself included) want to learn basic maintenance, we don't want to know how to build a car from scratch. And, I don't expect anyone to teach me how to change my car filter for free. I realize that I need to invest time in the learning process. Why not invest money also and shorten the time it takes?


in short, like it or not, you need to learn what you are doing - at least the basics - in order to hack your tivo. if not, you are simply kidding yourself and setting yourself up for failure. either learn the basics of what you are doing, or enjoy your stock tivo.

When did I say I didn't want to learn at least the basics? I think I mentioned tutoring specifically! Tutoring isn't refusing to learn the basics. Just like school, I'm willing to pay a tutor to teach me specific pieces of knowledge. Remember, my point was having the opportunity to ask specific questions and get specific answers. NOT to have someone do it for me.

If you've read any of my posts as a criticism, you've missed the point. I've got no problem with the way these forums are handled - they're a great resource and great place for experts. I'm not asking them to change in any way to accomodate me. I'm just wondering if individuals here are interested in exercising a little capitalism?

You've got info, I've got a need. You paid the price (time) for your info, I'm willing to pay a price (money) for parts of it. Isn't it exactly what people do all over the U.S. every day?

JJBliss
06-03-2005, 12:29 PM
I wouldn't spend 5 years in automotive school to learn how to change my oil filter. I'd pay someone to show me specifically how to do that one thing.
Right. You wouldn't spend 5 years in automotive school. But that is exactly what DDB is. You can't come to the automotive school and as to be told just one thing.



You've got info, I've got a need. You paid the price (time) for your info, I'm willing to pay a price (money) for parts of it. Isn't it exactly what people do all over the U.S. every day?
Well, not everywhere. But there are most cerrtainly some places that you can look for someone to take you up on those services, but not here. Sorry. Wrong place.

brndnkjns
06-03-2005, 12:51 PM
... but not here. Sorry. Wrong place.

I hadn't seen the idea explored before.

Ok, fair enough. If this isn't the right place to find paid tutoring, then I'll stop asking.

Roger Dylan
06-03-2005, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't spend 5 years in automotive school to learn how to change my oil filter.

The notion that the content of this forum is anything equivalent to 5 years in an automotive school is about the funniest thing I've heard in a long, long time.

The entire content here on DDB, everything you need to know to hack your Tivo and deal with changes and glitches as they come up,including an elementary grasp of Linux, would take a day and a half to master. (Note I'm obviously not talking about _true_development; there are a few masters here who's grasp we couldn't match with _10_ years of study; it's a gift.)

A day and a half _if_ the information were properly organized and the technical errors, misunderstandings and false starts deleted to expose the core.

But this, like most amateur hobbiest sites, is not organized that way, it can't be without expensive manpower and I assume all these people are volunteers.They do an excellent job (compared to most forums of this type) and serious efforts are made to at least categorize the stuff. But what comes in, technically, is what you get. Brilliant and occasionally even concisely-presented information mixed in with tons of error, half-right and misleading stuff, and correct info that is so poorly stated it needs a translator. Plus some of this stuff "just works" because there is still a black box element to what we deal with here and it's very hard to explain processes that we don't really totally understand. Frankly it's potentially embarrassing to expose yourself to a paid tutorial situation where the thin veneer of expertise is quickly stripped away by probing student questions.

I see two solutions for you: first, follow up occasionally with your request and I'm pretty sure you'll get private mail. The problem will be that so often the best content minds are not the greatest communicators or teachers, but I have a feeling you'll eventually get some useful help. Prepare to throw some money down the drain initially, make short-term modest commitments with the big payoff contingent on success, and then cycle through a few candidates.

Second, if hacking and Linux itself don't turn you on as something you're willing to expend time and energy to learn, how about the research itself, pure research independent of content. The "chore" of sifting through all this stuff and accumulating your own organized notes, though it takes weeks, could be a very enjoyable passtime if you basically ignore the subject matter and look upon the process as a research exercise with a useful result. If that's not appealing, wait for mail (but "refresh" your request every once in awhile).

mfstevens92
07-09-2005, 03:46 AM
First, let me set the stage. I wanted to get this little project well underway over the past week and I'm 6 weeks into a newborn with a 2 Y/O older brother, so nothing of interest happens until after 9:00 pm. A psychotic break is on order.

To start, I found something that looked reasonable on Lou's website that linked to instructions on the weethet site. After finding no joy on that path, I posted something on this site's newbie section and got a pretty cold (justifiably) response with the most notable exception of PlainBill (Thanks!).

Then, I found the AW post that has the 6.2 minimal image (Thanks AW!) and that got me to a working 6.2 machine. Following that post, I didn't catch the need for killhdinitrd, and wandered down the path toward a rc.sysinit.author file and (just to prove that a blind hog finds a truffle every now and then) built a serial cable (tin the leads, apply heat stick them together etc.). At this point, I discovered the self healing fun that I'm not used to an OS doing to me, but I'm not used to consumer hw either. I PM'ed PlainBill to thank him for the prod in the right direction and added a "what causes this O/S to behave in such a benevolent manner?" and he was kind enough to point me toward killhdinitrd. After another hour or so of reading and futzing I figured out the important tidbit about putting the proper boot image (3.1.5 worked for me) on /dev/hdx3 and /dev/hdx6 and I finally managed to get past the amazing healing O/S. Finally, I'm searching for anything that might keep my telnet daemon from working correctly and if I didn't have the knowledge about firewalls and their relationship with ipchains or iptables, I would still be futzing.

The point of all of this is it took a little while for me to adjust my thought process to a world that has long since been forgotten. For the rest of you old timers out there, you will remember the words "You are standing in a clearing, there is a grate at your feet. A path leads into the woods to the east." Once you start looking at this environment as a giant game of adventure (or Zork) things start to make sense. The worst part is figuring out what you don't know to look for (like iptables) that is almost a footnote at the bottom of a paragraph. When the noob only knows that telnet isn't connecting as expected, the laughter you are hearing in the distance might not be as ominous as you think.

So thanks to the 10,000+ folks who have come before me. I've got some more learning to do and I hope to become a contributing member instead of a parasite at some dim distant point in the future.

PS. Note to Christopher Heer: If the fellow who had the nicked intestine was an Oregonian who was worked on in Oklahoma. He was a good friend of mine, the body is amazing in it's ability to heal itself, but it does have it's limitations. RIP

johnsolo
07-30-2005, 06:27 PM
Where to start....

Lets sum it up and say organizing a hacking scene via sticky posts is non-optimal.

Here's a radical idea:

Create a CVS. Create a webpage. Give all the VIPs/developers CVS admin access. Create 2 forums, one private developer forum, one public support forum. Keep the devs away from the public forum.