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GandalfTheGrey
05-03-2006, 11:59 AM
If there is already help on this site for my problem, please pardon me. I HAVE searched!

I'm getting a lot of bad DVD's (probably 10-20% bad). My process is to:
1. download, edit, and create the DVD's using tytool 10r4.
2. burn the DVD with either CDBurnerXPPro 3 or Nero

Here are the various problems I get:
1. A small number don't make it through the verification step of the burning phase. I was patient enough to wait once and it was over 20 hours. And the DVD was bad.
2. A larger number can't be read by the DVD player. By this I mean the menu won't even come up. I have two players. Sometimes a DVD can be read by one player and not the other. Sometimes neither player will play it. I know there is a thread that discusses results with various players but keep in mind that 80-90% of my DVD's play just fine.
3. The largest problem is DVD's that start ok but part way through a movie it basically goes to crap. Lots a pixilation, stopping and stuttering, etc.

I'm guessing the problem is the media. I've tried a few brands. The last several dozen DVD's I've burned have been on Memorex DVD -R media. I've tried both 4X and 16X. It doesn't seem to make a difference.

Can anyone help? Please?

ScanMan
05-03-2006, 01:40 PM
I've used a similar process for awhile and not had one bad one!!! Are you using the tserver in TyTool to download? I've had the best success that way. Also, the Vob/Mux (new format), after you create and/or edit the keyfile. Are you sure you are creating the IFO's correctly. The interface can be a little confusing; you have to make sure you "set item" and have a vob link, etc. I've always burned at 4X because I get stuttering on my DVD player if I try to burn faster. Although some swear by the media, FWIW I'm using the cheap no-names from CompUSA and I haven't had a coaster...hope some of this helps you find a solution.

GandalfTheGrey
05-03-2006, 02:10 PM
Thanks for the quick reply, ScanMan!

Let's see ...
I am using TyTool to download.
I am using the Vob-Mux (New Format) option.
Yes, the creating IFO interface is a bit tricky but I've successfully done it many times.

After I create the IFO files, I test them with PowerDVD. The menus work fine and the movies seem to play fine EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Then I burn the DVD with verify turned on. With the exception of the very few that don't make it throught the burn process, I test the actual DVD with PowerDVD and things appear fine.

Then, bam, 10-20% have the trouble I mentioned in my original post when playing in a DVD player.

Thoughts, anyone?

cheer
05-03-2006, 02:26 PM
Well, DVD players can be touchy. Some only like -R/-RW media, some only like +R/+RW media. Some barf at the non-standard sizes...sometimes.

Bottom line...you've eliminated everything but your DVD players in the process. What model DVD players are you using?

GandalfTheGrey
05-03-2006, 02:38 PM
cheer, thanks!

I currently have:

1. Toshiba SD-3990
2. Zenith XBV442

The Toshiba recently replace an older model. My wife took it to her school so I don't remember what it was. All 3 players have trouble but not all on the same bloody DVD! The Toshiba was able to play a DVD its predecessor could not. When that happened I thought the problem was solved. But nooooo.

Are you sure I should rule out the media? Since approximately 80% of the DVD's are ok, I'm thinking the player or the media could be it.

captain_video
05-03-2006, 03:05 PM
Toshibas are notorious for choking on recordable DVDs, especially older models. Before you throw in the towel I'd recommend a few things first:

Switch to DVD-RW/+RW discs until you get the process working 100%. Make sure whatever format you choose will work with your DVD player.

Take some of your tyDVDs to Circuit City or some other electronics emporium that has DVD players set up that you can demo (forget about Best Buy as they never have any DVD players connected to monitors). I think you may be surprised to find that they'll work on more players than you realize.

Try using the older VOB-mux method. I've never tried either of the newer muxing methods and never had a problem with playback on my DVD players.

Get a new DVD player. Most current models will play just about anything you throw in them and the prices have hit rock bottom.

GandalfTheGrey
05-03-2006, 04:52 PM
Hmmm, food for thought.

On the "Toshiba" and "old player" issues, both of my players are pretty new and both claim to support -R and +R. The Toshiba is only a couple of months old. But if Toshibas generally are bad, that's good to know.

As for burning -RW/+RW, captain_video, I assume that is so I'm not wasting lots of DVD's on failed tests by burning the same DVD multiple times? How would that work for a video DVD? I can't put the SAME file (or one with the same name) on the DVD a 2nd time, can I?

Nice idea with the Circuit City suggestion.

And I'll try the older vob-mux method, too.

If these questions seem dumb, there MAY be a good reason for that!

Thanks. And thanks in advance if anyone else has any additional ideas!

cheer
05-03-2006, 06:17 PM
If you use RW discs, you can just erase them and re-use them.

You might also consider picking up an el-cheapo $30 DVD player at Wal-Mart or the like. If it plays everything, then you've settled the matter once and for all. If not, return it. It's possible it's the media, but I'd bet dollars to donuts it's the players. Name brand players seem to be touchier than the ultra-generic ones. I have a couple of Apex players laying around that will play round bits of cardboard with "MPEG" written on them in crayon...

GandalfTheGrey
05-03-2006, 08:21 PM
Well, dang, cheers. How 'bout I send you my labels and you stick them on those bits of cardboard and send them back to me!

Seriously, after I get back from an upcoming business trip I'll try all yall's suggestions.

captain_video
05-03-2006, 10:20 PM
Using -RW or +RW discs is always a good idea when you're testing out a new process. If you get a bad burn you can just record on top of it. You also won't end up with a lot of coasters. And yes, you can rewrite the same file on the disc as many times as you want.

newbie
05-04-2006, 10:04 AM
Some of the Nero setting will cause a problem. I use Imgtool
http://www.coujo.de/ to burn. It uses the nero burning engine but pre-selects the options. It's quick and works.

Some DVD players work better with -R, a few might work better with +R. Media is cheap, I wouldn't waste my time with RW media. Some brands work better than others. Many people like the Taiyo Yuden brand disks. Normally the Fujji and Sony -R disks that say made in Japan are that brand.

Also try not running anything else, including AV software, when you burn

captain_video
05-04-2006, 10:18 AM
That depends entirely on which version of Nero you're using. The older version 5 releases had issues that required specific settings. Version 6 just requires that you burn the files as DVD Video with no special settings whatsoever. I haven't tried version 7 yet as I heard the initial release had some issues.

I do all sorts of things while burning DVDs and have never had any problems with my 5-year old Athlon XP 2400+ PC but YMMV.

Sure, -R and +R media is cheap but the cheap media will give you more grief in the long run. The -RW and +RW media isn't much more expensive than good -R or +R media and will prevent wasting a lot of discs if you are having problems getting the files burned to DVD. I like the RW media because I don't keep 90% of the programs I burn to DVD. I just use them as an extension to timeshifting (mostly with DVDs I rent from NetFlix) and reuse them after I've watched the movie.

I've been using Princo -RW discs and achieve very good results with them. I stopped using the Princo -R media a long time ago because it's basically crap, along with most of the other no-name brands. I highly recommend using Taiyo Yuden recordable media as it's just about the best there is and not all that expensive.

Hi8
05-04-2006, 10:35 AM
Some of the Nero setting will cause a problem. I use Imgtool
http://www.coujo.de/ to burn. It uses the nero burning engine but pre-selects the options. It's quick and works.

Some DVD players work better with -R, a few might work better with +R. Media is cheap, I wouldn't waste my time with RW media. Some brands work better than others. Many people like the Taiyo Yuden brand disks. Normally the Fujji and Sony -R disks that say made in Japan are that brand.

Also try not running anything else, including AV software, when you burn


I had and from time to time still get a coaster - however that has been GREATLY reduced by primarily using "Taiyo Yuden" they seem to be BEST in my players/recorders --

I have several of both --

Burners : Sony, Plextor, and Pioneer if I remember correctly)do not use that one any more)

STB: Sony(several different ones), Phillips, Koss, Apex, and I couple others back in the closet somewhere.

by far my Phillips is my favorite - even plays Divx natively.

I put my money on the media. I have seen it make the difference when no other variable changed in the burning process.

derelict
05-04-2006, 09:27 PM
I've burned over 500 DVDs (my wife wants to record everything) with very little bad burns. I have been using he following:

MSFTP to download files from my 3 TIVOs to a local HD
TyTool9r18 to VOB mux and create IFOs
Nero 6.6.0.3 to burn discs

I only use DVD-R discs.

I noticed that my bad burns occur only from the following:
1) Bad media (i.e. some of the GQ discs from Frys)
2) Loading on the machine, i.e. too much load on the processor during the burning process.

Otherwise, the process is very stable...

just my 2 cents

ns33
05-10-2006, 11:18 AM
- Try to limit DVD size to the media - when you select VOB's to process for IFO, TyTools10r4 reports the total size along with good /bad indicator. (I'm fairly new to the game and haven't had any chance to play with other versions)
- Once the gen IFO stage is complete, run DVDShrink and create an ISO image in full backup mode. Besides anything, this will ensure a proper booktype for the DVD. If you didn't go over the DVD size, the resulting ISO should be nearly same quality since there is no additional compression involved.
- Burn the ISO imgae using Nero/roxio or any other tool that let's you burn media from ISO.
- try using +/-RW media to test. With this ISO you should be able to use +R or -R media and still not throw off the DVD player. I have a very old sony player that's more picky than toshiba and this works just great...

NS

newbie
05-10-2006, 11:24 AM
Sure, -R and +R media is cheap but the cheap media will give you more grief in the long run. The -RW and +RW media isn't much more expensive than good -R or +R media and will prevent wasting a lot of discs if you are having problems getting the files burned to DVD.

Cheap compared to what media cost a few years ago. 50 TY -R disks for $15is cheap enough for me. Using RW media for shows you don't want to keep makes some sense but a user that suspects the wrong brand of media is responsible for his coasters really needs to try different brands and see what works best. I don't see what using RW will do.

ns33
05-10-2006, 11:46 AM
- Try to limit DVD size to the media - when you select VOB's to process for IFO, TyTools10r4 reports the total size along with good /bad indicator. (I'm fairly new to the game and haven't had any chance to play with other versions)
- Once the gen IFO stage is complete, run DVDShrink and create an ISO image in full backup mode. Besides anything, this will ensure a proper booktype for the DVD. If you didn't go over the DVD size, the resulting ISO should be nearly same quality since there is no additional compression involved.
- Burn the ISO imgae using Nero/roxio or any other tool that let's you burn media from ISO.
- try using +/-RW media to test. With this ISO you should be able to use +R or -R media and still not throw off the DVD player. I have a very old sony player that's more picky than toshiba and this works just great...

NS

Also, your problem may be related to your PC or Tivo setup. How much RAM or pagefile you have? Try defragging the PC harddrive.
- If you're creating IFO directories larger that a standard DVD media, Nero has to do a lot of on the fly compression, not good for picture quality. Picture quality could also be affected by signal strength and interference on DTivo. On Tivo, your Tivo HD quality affects the quality of encoded stream.

cheer
05-10-2006, 12:22 PM
On Tivo, your Tivo HD quality affects the quality of encoded stream.
By "HD" do you mean "High Definition" or "Hard Drive?" Because if you mean hidef, your sentence doesn't make any sense.

ns33
05-10-2006, 12:32 PM
By "HD" do you mean "High Definition" or "Hard Drive?" Because if you mean hidef, your sentence doesn't make any sense.

hard drive of course.... :p
essentially - any encoder's going to be limited in quality by the storage it's allowed to access... slow hard drive/ slower read/write ( even at 7200 rpm) can affect the encoded stream.

GandalfTheGrey
05-10-2006, 12:49 PM
Just a quick note to let you guys know I'm not ignoring you. I'm actually on a business trip to Angola and internet access here is iffy (I'm being kind).

Please continue the discussion if you have anything to add and when I get home I'm going to start trying different things based on the advise received here.

ns33, some of your ideas certainly went off in directions I hadn't thought about. Although I DID defrag my hard drive right before leaving on my trip thinking it might help. I didn't have time to do another test after that, however. This is sort of in the same theme as not trying to do other stuff on the computer while it's burning ... how well is the computer performing.

Creating an ISO file and burning that is an interesting approach. Anyone else do that?

And your idea of the quality of the hard drive in the Tivo is curious. I didn't customize the Tivo myself. I bought it this way on eBay. I know, I know. I'm a weeny. I have the technical expertise to do it myself, but just preferred to pay someone to do it for me ... time is limited. I also used to change my own oil but now take the car to one of these newfangled quick oil change shops. But I digress.

If anyone else has thoughts on that sort of thing (the speed of the Tivo's hard drive) I'd love to hear them. 'course at this point, I'd love to hear any ideas.

Thanks again! This is a terrific community!

captain_video
05-10-2006, 02:15 PM
Cheap compared to what media cost a few years ago. 50 TY -R disks for $15is cheap enough for me. Using RW media for shows you don't want to keep makes some sense but a user that suspects the wrong brand of media is responsible for his coasters really needs to try different brands and see what works best. I don't see what using RW will do.
RW will prevent you from burning a lot of coasters and wasting good recordable discs, which is the problem the OP is experiencing. If the DVD player is that finnicky about the brand of media you're feeding it then I would recommend getting a new DVD player. I've never run into a problem regarding media brands being more compatible than others except when burning backups of PS2 games and such. The biggest issue you'll run into is the number of dropouts you experience with one brand vs. another.

The obvious issue is whether or not a particular player is compatible with the recordable format (i.e., -R/RW vs. +R/RW) and not so much the brand name on the package. Better quality media will definitely give you better results and should be used for anything you really want to archive. I'll use less expensive media if someone asks me for a copy of a show they missed if it's a one-shot deal. I'll also use them for copying data between PCs if there's no other viable method of doing so.

Cheap media may work fine for the short haul but will deteriorate to the point where the disc is no longer playable. The older type dye layers tend to become unstable, causing the reflectivity of the discs to worsen over time. This may not be as much of an issue with the current types of media but it was definitely true with some of the older brands.

cheer
05-10-2006, 02:58 PM
hard drive of course.... :p
essentially - any encoder's going to be limited in quality by the storage it's allowed to access... slow hard drive/ slower read/write ( even at 7200 rpm) can affect the encoded stream.
On a DirecTivo? Kinda doubt it, since no encoding takes place. I don't know that I've ever seen an example of a "slow" HD in a DTivo making any difference at all. In fact, I try to use 5400 RPM drives whenever possible since (A) they don't seem to make a lick of difference in performance and (B) they seem to run a bit cooler.

ns33
05-10-2006, 03:53 PM
On a DirecTivo? Kinda doubt it, since no encoding takes place. I don't know that I've ever seen an example of a "slow" HD in a DTivo making any difference at all. In fact, I try to use 5400 RPM drives whenever possible since (A) they don't seem to make a lick of difference in performance and (B) they seem to run a bit cooler.

I know that DTivo would dump encoded streams directly and that's why my original post says two different things... mark word Tivo and DTivo...
here goes.. granted that I should have been more careful and used word SA Tivo instead for the second statement though...


Picture quality could also be affected by signal strength and interference on DTivo.
On Tivo, your Tivo HD quality affects the quality of encoded stream.


Edit: And the frame edit on GOPEditor (Tytools) also would result in the picture problem at the transition points...

captain_video
05-10-2006, 04:16 PM
S1 DTivos used Quantum lct10 drives that only rotated at 4500rpm and they worked just fine.