HR10-250 HDMI active all the time?

[mr_zorg]

I recently got an auto-sensing HDMI switch box, which is designed to automatically switch inputs as they become active. But, I noticed some odd behavior that led me to a conclusion about the HDMI port on the HR10-250. Basically, the unit would properly switch to my HD-DVD player when I turned it on, but would not switch back to my HR10-250 when I turned it on. So I did some experimenting.

With nothing plugged in to the switcher, I could manually cycle it to (say) input 3, then hit the auto button, and it would stay on input 3 since it had nothing to switch to.

With the HD-DVD plugged in to input 2, but turned off, I repeated the same test. The switcher stayed on input 3 since, once again, there were no active inputs to switch to.

With the HR10-250 plugged in to input 1, but also turned off, I repeated the test again. This time the switcher selected input 1, suggesting that the HDMI port on the HR10-250 is always active even when "turned off". This would explain my initial observations since the HR10-250 input does not cycle from inactive to active when I power on the unit, of course it's not going to "switch back" from the HD-DVD player... I will gripe at the manufacturer for only triggering on a inactive-to-active state change -- I feel that when a device powers off and a previous one was STILL active, it should switch back to that one rather than wait for something new to go active...

BUT, the switcher functionality isn't the reason I'm posting here. I'm wondering why the HDMI port on the HR10-250 remains active even when the unit is powered off (a.k.a. standby). Doesn't seem like it should. Can anyone confirm my observations? Does anyone know of a way to change this behavior? :mad:

[labbie48]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe putting the HR10-250 in standby only spins down the disk drive. It does not power of the mainboard.

[mr_zorg]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe putting the HR10-250 in standby only spins down the disk drive. It does not power of the mainboard.
I'm sure it doesn't power off the mainboard, since it needs to keep track of what time it is and what to record next... But it certainly should shut off the video circuitry, shouldn't it?

[stevel]

Well, it does traditionally "blank the video outputs", but just what this means with HDMI, I don't know. It may well keep the link active.

[alldeadhomiez]

I'm sure it doesn't power off the mainboard, since it needs to keep track of what time it is and what to record next... But it certainly should shut off the video circuitry, shouldn't it?

In general, standby mode causes the video outputs and green LED to be turned off. I am not aware of any software revision in which the hard drive or anything else is powered down.

On the HR10, things are a little more complicated. The composite/S-Vid/component outputs come from the Broadcom decoder chip, but the HDMI output comes from the SII9190 HDMI transmitter. It is entirely possible that tivoapp fails to turn off the SII9190 when entering standby mode. Examining /proc/si9190/{audio,display} in normal and standby modes, I don't see any differences in the device state.

It is probably feasible to write a daemon or kernel module that issues the proper ioctl to disable/enable the HDMI output when entering/leaving standby mode. You could start by monitoring ioctl operations on /dev/si9190, and correlating them with various events (startup, standby, resolution change, hot plug/unplug).

You might want to call your local SII sales rep and see how hard it is to get the datasheet and/or driver sources. They will probably require an NDA since the device supports HDCP, but it's worth a shot anyway.

Speaking of HDCP... it is possible that one or both devices will want to redo the key exchange once you bring the link back up. This may or may not require help from the application. You might be able to get around the problem by figuring out how to disable HDCP entirely. Again, watching all operations on the si9190 device will give you a good feel for what the application software needs to do to properly drive the transmitter.

[stevel]

On DTiVos, standby also pauses filling and playing of the live buffer(s), reducing disk activity. It does not spin down the disks (which would do more harm than good.)

[mr_zorg]

It is probably feasible to write a daemon or kernel module that issues the proper ioctl to disable/enable the HDMI output when entering/leaving standby mode. You could start by monitoring ioctl operations on /dev/si9190, and correlating them with various events (startup, standby, resolution change, hot plug/unplug).
Thanks for all the info, I may well try to figure this out, as it's silly and annoying. Does anyone know if the S3 does this or not? I've been on the fence with the S3, anything to tip the scale in it's favor is welcome news. :)

[Jamie]

Thanks for all the info, I may well try to figure this out, as it's silly and annoying. Does anyone know if the S3 does this or not? I've been on the fence with the S3, anything to tip the scale in it's favor is welcome news. :)Although there is no video output, my HDMI switch still sees a connection on the port when the S3 is on standby.

[mr_zorg]

Although there is no video output, my HDMI switch still sees a connection on the port when the S3 is on standby.
How lame. Thanks for the info... Why on earth would they maintain the link?

[Jamie]

How lame. Thanks for the info... Why on earth would they maintain the link?So they don't have to go through an HDCP handshake each time they come out of standby?

[mr_zorg]

So they don't have to go through an HDCP handshake each time they come out of standby?
Wouldn't they have to do that anyway if I turn my TV off or change inputs?

[geordi]

I would be VERY happy if someone would figure out a way to kill that stupid HDCP system on the HR10... On mine, once again if I leave the unit on for more than 8 hours or so, with the TV off (apparently) it will eventually just switch to pink snow. Not even the tivo button (to go to the menus) recycles the video, I have to hard-boot it. This is retarded. It didn't do this with 3.1.5f, so this has to be something new in 6.3. I'm up to 6.3c (instantcake) since I couldn't get it to download.

Also... Where is the "standby" option at the bottom of the main menu? It was there before, now its gone? Thats REALLY annoying, b/c now I need to manually hit the standby button every time I'm going out, or I won't be able to watch when I get back without a reboot...

I really hate all this content protection crap, and the sad fact is, it isn't ANY kind of deterrant to what the media industry is actually trying to prevent: outright piracy.

How do I know it isn't a deterrant? Oh, how about the fact that if I miss an episode of Heroes or Jericho b/c of a tivo glitch from Directv's buggy software... I can download the FULL HDTV version, WITHOUT ADS in it at all, within about 2 hours of the broadcast time. And it's full hdtv quality, yet only 350mb for an hour. Hmm. Yea, HDCP is really preventing piracy. :rolleyes:

[captain_video]

I can download the FULL HDTV version, WITHOUT ADS in it at all, within about 2 hours of the broadcast time. And it's full hdtv quality, yet only 350mb for an hour.
Hmmm, let's see - a full hour of compressed DTV programming is roughly about 6GB, give or take, yet you have the same program further compressed to only 350MB and it's still full HD quality? That's either pretty frickin' amazing or you need to get your eyes checked. Ain't no way, Jose. I'll bet if you check the resolution of your downloaded "HD" files you'll find that it's less than standard definition TV, probably on the order of 356x248 or somewhere in that vicinity. The bitrate has to be ridiculously low to yield a file that small for the amount of information you started with. FYI - a 1-hour show recorded from OTA sources via my HR10-250 will yield a file size of about 2.5 - 2.8GB after editing. You're still throwing away a lot of information when you reduce it to almost one tenth of the original size.

Anyone else think we have a nominee for the next Darwin award?:rolleyes: (Uh oh, is that the Sewer I see up ahead?)

[alldeadhomiez]

I would be VERY happy if someone would figure out a way to kill that stupid HDCP system on the HR10.

Earlier in this thread, I suggested monitoring the HDMI ioctls. If you post the logs, somebody may have insight into what is going on.

It might be useful to hook up the HR10 to a computer LCD monitor that has DVI but no HDCP, and compare the logs against HR10->digital TV. I would try different types of channels too: channel 100 (no protection required), locals (probably unprotected), HBO (?), and PPV (probably protected).

Also... Where is the "standby" option at the bottom of the main menu? It was there before, now its gone? Thats REALLY annoying, b/c now I need to manually hit the standby button every time I'm going out, or I won't be able to watch when I get back without a reboot...

I am 99% sure there is a discrete remote code for standby.

[mr_zorg]

Also... Where is the "standby" option at the bottom of the main menu? It was there before, now its gone? Thats REALLY annoying, b/c now I need to manually hit the standby button every time I'm going out, or I won't be able to watch when I get back without a reboot...
There is always the Superpatch67Script (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=267550&postcount=56)...

[geordi]

Thanks, yea I found that superpatch-standby fix script...

As for posting the ioctl, I don't know how to do that, but I'm just going to use the component outputs from now on, and see if that makes a difference.

With the compression question... Well, let me see, if I import video in pure analog an hour of HDTV resolution will yield a file over 30gb, yet we can store that same quality on our old HR10-250 for a mere 5gb of space...

Boy oh boy, I'm sure glad the technology hasn't advanced any further than that in the years that the Tivo has been around with the venerable MPEG2 compression! Mpeg2 is so new... It's been available for only what, almost 8 years now? Every DVD uses it, and there aren't hardly ANY of those out there, right? I mean, Mpeg4 is just in beta now, and that idea of Xvid offering the same visual quality at the same resolution in still a lot less space... That must be the next topic for mythbusters, right? :rolleyes:

Pick up a technology magazine next time you are out in the real world, you will see that you don't need to have lossy compression if your compression algorithms are good enough. And no, you can't see any difference, and yes, it IS at the same resolution.

[geordi]

Got my standby menu item back, so I'm happy about that.

With the HDCP on the HDMI port... It still is failing after a certain amount of time without the TV on, so there must be a failed handshake there somewhere. Would HDCP not activate at all if the device connected wasn't HDCP compliant? I'm going to do some checking on that tomorrow night after Apprentice. :D

[drez]

How do I know it isn't a deterrant? Oh, how about the fact that if I miss an episode of Heroes or Jericho b/c of a tivo glitch from Directv's buggy software... I can download the FULL HDTV version, WITHOUT ADS in it at all, within about 2 hours of the broadcast time. And it's full hdtv quality, yet only 350mb for an hour. Hmm. Yea, HDCP is really preventing piracy. :rolleyes:


Boy oh boy, I'm sure glad the technology hasn't advanced any further than that in the years that the Tivo has been around with the venerable MPEG2 compression! Mpeg2 is so new... It's been available for only what, almost 8 years now? Every DVD uses it, and there aren't hardly ANY of those out there, right? I mean, Mpeg4 is just in beta now, and that idea of Xvid offering the same visual quality at the same resolution in still a lot less space... That must be the next topic for mythbusters, right? :rolleyes:

Pick up a technology magazine next time you are out in the real world, you will see that you don't need to have lossy compression if your compression algorithms are good enough. And no, you can't see any difference, and yes, it IS at the same resolution.


The 350MB/hr xvids are not the "FULL HDTV version" and they aren't the same resolution. The HDTV in the filename ONLY means that the source was an HDTV stream.


The 350MB/hr (really 45min) rips are usually 600-something by 300-something, e.g. 624x352, 608x336, etc for widescreen; 512x384,etc for fullscreen...
Anybody that follows technology knows that full HDTV is 1280x720, 1920x1080... so how is ~600x300 the "same resolution"???

Stop ranting about sh*t you obviously don't understand. You should read your technology magazines more carefully next time.



(There are 700MB/hr TV rips called HR.HDTV rips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HR_HDTV) and even those aren't full HD. Those are usually around 900-something by 500-something, e.g. 960x540, 944x528, etc.)