IRD Number

[emuman100]

i was wondering if anyone knew where the ird number is stored and if i can change it through the bash prompt. i do some tests with the ird number and wish to have all my irds with the same number to make it easier for testing. i'm not talking about the tivo serial number but the ird number. it makes it easier when doing testing.

thank you.

[BubbaJ]

it's in the serial flash accessable by the master 5505

[T_RJ]

Hey Bubbaj

I noticed that IRD number changes when you change the serial number of the TiVo.

Is the IRD number derived from the serial Number?

[emuman100]

Bubba, you mean the prom where the bios/boot rom is stored?

[BubbaJ]

.. ignore my previous post.. I wasn't thinking clearly. The truth is, I'm not completely sure where the IRD number comes from, it may indeed be a contrivance of some function on the TiVo ID..
it isnot in the boot prom that I know of..

[T_RJ]

I can't get my second tivo working just yet but when I do I will try and make them have the same serial number and see if they end up with the same IRD number. I'll post my results.

[BigDog]

This is an interesting thread, has anyone had a chance to actually try changing their serial number file to see if the IRD number changes.

If the IRD number is derived from the serial number, and most of us are using 25xtreme and therefore have the same number in that serial number file, does that mean we might all have the same IRD number?

I think most people agree that the next TiVo update will come down through the sattelite. I believe that in order to control the number of units that are simultaneously updated, they will have to send the updates to groups of recievers rather than just a global update. The only thing that makes any sense is to tie the update to either the serial number or the IRD number. If you were to decide to opt out of the update, I think one way would be to change these numbers.

Of course this may only delay the inevitable since once the update has been out for a while they will probably deliver it globaly. At the very least you would have a few weeks even months of warning to prepare and decide how to handle the changes. Any bets that the default 25Xtreme serial number will be one of the first updated?

I'd like to know what others think. Am I nuts?

... Ok, let me rephrase that, am I right or wrong?

[T_RJ]

The IRD number is directly related to the the TIVO service nimber.

The serial number is embedded on the mother board.
This number can easily be changed at will.

It has nothing to do with Xtreme.

My tivo's:

2 Philips, 2 Sony's, 1 Hughe's all have personallity conflicts. :D

They alll believe they are the same! :rolleyes:

Quintuplets and yet they still manage to keep there individual core personalities. :D

IE: Sony splash still say Sony, Hughes still say Hughes, Philips.still say Philips.

IRD number however are identcal. :D

[BigDog]

T_RJ

Thanks for the information. I've done some more reading tonite and I'm starting to understand. If you don't mind, I just have three more questions about the serial number.

If I were to type crypto -u -ssn "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" and assign a new serial number will my hard drives be rejected, and will I be forced to reset the system? If this is the case, is there any way to avoid this?

Are there any serial numbers that are invalid ? All zeros or all Fs?

What does the serialnumber (I forget the exact name) file on the TiVo hard drive contain?

[T_RJ]

I just have three more questions about the serial number.

If I were to type crypto -u -ssn "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" and assign a new serial number will my hard drives be rejected, and will I be forced to reset the system?

Yes you will have to do a clear and reset everything.

If this is the case, is there any way to avoid this?

At this point NO.
There have been many discussions regarding this, no one has been able to provide a concrete answer as of yet.

Are there any serial numbers that are invalid ? All zeros or all Fs?

I've tried many.
See what happens.
You won't break it.
Be aware that the service Number is broken into several parts.
Some parts define the Model IE Sony, Philips etc..
Others ( last six didgits ) for example define the IRD #



What does the serialnumber (I forget the exact name) file on the TiVo hard drive contain?

I don't know.

[chipster]

EDIT: T_RJ beat me to this...

Changing the Tivo Service ID or SN (and thus, the IRD number - which is based on the Tivo ID) will give software version 2.5 some fits - it's no longer married, and you're forced to do a "Clear and Delete Everything" to get it working again. You'll lose your recordings, SPs, etc.

We've not yet figured out a way around this. The crypto chip also has it's own unique ID - issue "crypto -gcn" (gcn = get chip number?). We don't know how to change this value.

This "chip number" is probably used in the "marriage" as well, since changing the SN in crypto (as T_RJ has all of his the same) still does not allow drive swapping between units of identical SN.

As far as I can tell, the hard drive SN is not used in the marriage - since moving an image to a new drive, and placing the new drive back on the original DTivo does not phase 2.5...

But the advantage to having all your DTivos set to one SN is that it allows you to move your access cards between them.

[BigDog]

Thanks chipster and T_RJ

I only have the one TiVo, and was looking at this as a way to avoid receiving software updates. It sounds like the best course of action would be to find a way to change the portion of the Service Number that identifies the unit as a Dtivo.

Has anyone tried to do this yet. Have they had any success?

I could look at disassembling the crypto program. Maybe that would give some clues. My dissasembly skills are pretty much non existant, but this is a good chance to learn.

[T_RJ]

That won't work.
The only thing it may accomplish is your DTiVo will recieve software updates for what it believes it is.

IE: if you make the serial number equall to a stand alone it will recieve stand alone updates.

You can cunfuse the hell out of your DTiVo if you change it's serial/service number.

[BigDog]

That won't work.
The only thing it may accomplish is your DTiVo will recieve software updates for what it believes it is.

IE: if you make the serial number equall to a stand alone it will recieve stand alone updates.


I don't mean to keep asking dumb questions, but what if I make it to be the serial number of an RCA303 unit for instance? Or maybe go crazy and give it a serial number that doesn't correspond to anything in the known universe?

[rustyfinger]

Originally posted by BigDog


I don't mean to keep asking dumb questions, but what if I make it to be the serial number of an RCA303 unit for instance? Or maybe go crazy and give it a serial number that doesn't correspond to anything in the known universe?

This question is one I am curious about. I have my sub with a Sony SAT-A65 and would like to have the serial number on my Sony T60 tivo the same as the A65 so that I could put my sub card in the tivo if I wanted to without any problems.

[T_RJ]

Big dog

You are going to end Up with a schizophrenic DTiVo.

The last six digits of the service number are the IRD number.

The numbers you see in system info are not what you will see on the cards IRD number.

The numbers are run threw some calculation that is the resulting number on the card. Haven't figured out the math.

rustyfinger

You might be able to do this but you will need to figure out the missing equation that the TiVo uses to generate the IRD number.

[rustyfinger]

Oh ya, the ird number assignment with the dtivo's is still a mystery! I have three dtivo's here(one phillips and two sony's), so maybe I should do some experimenting.

rustyfinger

[BigDog]

You are going to end Up with a schizophrenic DTiVo.



I'm not sure what you mean by that. Does the operating system load differently based on the Service Number?

My intent is to break the process for TiVo updating the software on the receiver. I'm going by the assumption that TiVo will use prudence in their upgrade process and not try to upgrade all receivers at once. The best way (that I can think of) for them to control the numbers of systems being upgraded would to use the Service Number. If the service number is not within the normal TiVo boundries, my logic follows that the receiver wouldn't be upgraded.

Are you saying that if I put in an invalid service number that the system won't be able to reset the hard drives for that number? Are you aware of any specific problems this would cause?

[T_RJ]

I am saying you can put what ever you want as a serial/service number.

I've used "1" ,"-1"," 001" etc.. I was able clear and reset and all worked fine.

My concern is that if they send the update from the sat and that update behaves differently based on the service number when it unpacks. What is your tivo going to look like when it is finished?

The sat has no way of knowing what ssn number your tivo has.
The comunication between the sat and the tivo is one way.
Sat sends, reciever recieves.

So a schizophrenic DTiVo will not know which personality it has at the point the update occurs.

WIll it take it?

Who knows.

Will it say upack all puke the TiVo?

The only sure way to prevent the TiVo from reciving any updates is to remove it from the stream.

That makes watching TV no fun at all.

[BBQ-AllStar]

Originally posted by T_RJ

The numbers you see in system info are not what you will see on the cards IRD number.

huh?, when I do a read on my card, the IRD # is the same as the system info IRD #...

BBQ

[T_RJ]

BBQ

These are some of my test results

"IRD Number TiVo" was taken from SYS info screen.
"IRD Number Card" was taken from hu extreme card info screen.
As you can see they are not the same.


IRD Number TiVo = 53284694
IRD Number Card = 1395148436
TiVo serial number xxxxxxxxx284694

This is a valid SN there for the XX
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000000
IRD Number Card = 2061880340
TiVo serial number 0
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000000
IRD Number Card = 2061880340
TiVo serial number 000000000000000
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000001
IRD Number Card = 1392508929
TiVo serial number 000000000000001
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000002
IRD Number Card = 1392508930
TiVo serial number 000000000000002
___________________________________

[BBQ-AllStar]

Originally posted by T_RJ
BBQ

These are some of my test results

"IRD Number TiVo" was taken from SYS info screen.
"IRD Number Card" was taken from hu extreme card info screen.
As you can see they are not the same.


IRD Number TiVo = 53284694
IRD Number Card = 1395148436
TiVo serial number xxxxxxxxx284694

This is a valid SN there for the XX
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000000
IRD Number Card = 2061880340
TiVo serial number 0
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000000
IRD Number Card = 2061880340
TiVo serial number 000000000000000
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000001
IRD Number Card = 1392508929
TiVo serial number 000000000000001
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000002
IRD Number Card = 1392508930
TiVo serial number 000000000000002
___________________________________


Well, the only difference I see is one is in HEX and the other is DEC...in examples above:

IRD Number TiVo = 53284694
IRD Number Card = 1395148436 HEX = 53284694
TiVo serial number xxxxxxxxx284694
__________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000001
IRD Number Card = 1392508929 HEX = 53000001
TiVo serial number 000000000000001
___________________________________
IRD Number TiVo = 53000002
IRD Number Card = 1392508930 HEX = 53000002
TiVo serial number 000000000000002
__________________________________

When I look at my card in BasicH I get:
IRD Number TiVo = 532C127A
IRD Number Card = 1395397242 HEX = 532C127A
TiVo serial number xxxxxxxxx2C127A

These are exzactly the same...what i am trying to figure out is the how the TiVo serial number on box (& back of unit) = IRD # in SYS menu...If I take my serial # on box (47087945) and X by 29 = 1395397242. Change that to HEX and I get my IRD # 532C127A.

Does this work for others....?

BBQ

[rustyfinger]

Good catch BBQ!

Know I see why you asked me for my serial number earlier. PM me either on this forum or the other one, and let me know what number you want(where you want me to get it from - the box or the menu), and I will pm it to you. Hopefully you will come up with the correct number and then you have it figured out. I guess I could just multiply by 29 myself, but PM anyway.

rustyfinger

[BBQ-AllStar]

I already PM'd you over at AT hours ago... :)

[T_RJ]

My bad!! :rolleyes:

I am a dumb ass. :p

I never gave the hex/dec a thaught. :rolleyes:

Boy do I feel STUPID !! :confused:

Thanks for making me feel stupid on my Birthday :mad: Just kidding :D :D

This makes the IRD/serial number a lot more intresting now that I have been enlightend.

I will check my box's SN x 29 and see if equalls the IRD # as yours did.

I'll post the results.


BBQ Thanks Again

[BBQ-AllStar]

No worries T_RJ!!!

I've done the same thing many times...;)

Anyways,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

BBQ

[BigDog]

The sat has no way of knowing what ssn number your tivo has.
The comunication between the sat and the tivo is one way.
Sat sends, reciever recieves.


T_RJ

I agree with you, the sat has no way of knowing what SSN I have, but TiVo does.

Imagine you are an engineer working for TiVo and you are tasked with upgrading all of the customer units with the latest software. Will you dump the update into the stream and allow all active systems to update at once? What if there is a problem with that particular build? What about differences between models of boxes?
You will have to dump the update onto the stream, because you don't have a choice. But you will control when the recievers actually install the update and how the update is installed (probably) by the service number. During the nightly service updates you will probably command a certain number of systems to take the upgrade. Again the obvious way to control who gets the upgrade and who doesn't would be through the service number. There is a good chance that if your number isn't on TiVo's list, you don't get upgraded.

Of course if I were that engineer, I would also have the update trigger on one other variable. If the unit were to have a file called SubTest in a certain directory, I would probably also force the upgrade. <grin>

[T_RJ]

I 've tried x29 on three different dtivo's 1 sony, 1 philips, and a hughes. No joy

But now that we no how to convert to hex ( Duh ) we should be able to match the DTiVo IRD # to the same as other non DTiVo recievers.

[T_RJ]

BigDog

Good point.

An other way would be that DTV decides that it will make some changes to the streem. This change is compatible with the new TiVo software but not with the old. The new software is able to use the old stream as well as the new. TiVo upgrades subscribers to the new SW. The software is downloaded through the stream but is missing the install key, it is only recieved by a call home.


DTV makes the stream change two months later.

All unsubscribed watchers loose TV.:mad:

[BBQ-AllStar]

If you have a HEX --> DEC converter or calculator...

IRD # in HEX (found in Tivo menu) divided by Serial # on BOX in HEX WILL EQUAL 1D (in HEX) or 29.

You can't multiply by 29 in Decimal...doesn't work. I found this method to work on 3 Philips models...

So...

IRD # HEX / 1D = BOX # HEX

change Box # HEX to decimal and waala...this should be the # found on your box or the back of the unit...try it.

T_RJ

Is your Philips serial # 48108566 on the back of your unit or box??

What do serial numbers on hughes & sony look like??

This doesn't really mean anything though....just that Philips serial numbers on the back of the units are "variations" of HEX format found in TiVO menu.

Sony's already come in hex right? example:

011-0000-53XX-XXXX on unit & box equals

53XXXXXX in TiVo menu....correct?


Anyways...

BBQ

[BigDog]

An other way would be that DTV decides that it will make some changes to the streem. This change is compatible with the new TiVo software but not with the old. The new software is able to use the old stream as well as the new. TiVo upgrades subscribers to the new SW. The software is downloaded through the stream but is missing the install key, it is only recieved by a call home.



That is very true, but they have a lot to loose by becoming hostile to hackers. We have now created an aftermarket for TIVO (tivonet, and airnet)
When you have an aftermarket, you become a defacto standard. TiVo is in a battle right now for dominance of the market place, until they win that battle they will be very careful not to make anyone to angry. JMHO

[T_RJ]

I tried on the philips
No joy

Hughes sn# gx3d48a3c014
No joy

[BBQ-AllStar]

Originally posted by T_RJ

An other way would be that DTV decides that it will make some changes to the streem. This change is compatible with the new TiVo software but not with the old. The new software is able to use the old stream as well as the new. TiVo upgrades subscribers to the new SW. The software is downloaded through the stream but is missing the install key, it is only recieved by a call home.


DTV makes the stream change two months later.

All unsubscribed watchers loose TV.:mad:

Only until we find what the "Key" is...so the problem is changing OUR service & IRD#s to match a subb'd "valid" service & IRD #??

BBQ

[BBQ-AllStar]

T_RJ,

Is your Philips Serial # 48108566?

[T_RJ]

no

47008490

[BBQ-AllStar]

Originally posted by T_RJ
I tried on the philips
No joy

Hughes sn# gx3d48a3c014
No joy

What is the IRD# in your TiVo menu for your Hughes...53A3C014?

[BBQ-AllStar]

Originally posted by T_RJ
no

47008490

Oops, I made a mistake...well that works!

47008490 in HEX = 2CD4AEA
IRD# (TIVO menu) = 53284694

so,

53284694/2CD4AEA = 1D....or 29

Therefore, if you have a philips and know either one of those numbers, then you can get the other...:)

BBQ

[BubbleLamp]

So now that you guys have worked out the math, any meaningful conclusions on how to leverage this info to prevent an unwanted update? Can we create some really odd number for the "card" that would confuse the Tivo if they are in fact going to use some algorithm based on this number?

[BBQ-AllStar]

Nevermind.... the Decimal multiplier of 29 is wrong...my hex calculator actually rounded up....I actually get variations of 29.6XXXXXXX as a multiplier.

This is all moot anyways...I think....;)

BBQ

[T_RJ]

I had to take my son to karate but I'm back.

I was starting to think I had no idea what the H**L I was doing. :rolleyes:

Glad ( not really ) that it wasn't just me with the math. :)

Well it really doesn't make much of a difference.

We know how to set the IRD number to what ever we want. (Hex - Dec) Dah! :D

And that alone is a very good thing! :D

[BBQ-AllStar]

Originally posted by T_RJ
I had to take my son to karate but I'm back.

Soccer, karate,...what else does your son do!!??:D

So do you change your IRD # by "crypto -u -ssn xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" as stated earlier? I was/am a little confused:confused:

BBQ

[T_RJ]

My Son
Soccer weekends. Alt Sat/Sun
Karate Tesdays and Thursdays
Traditional Irish music fiddle lesson's on the weekends.

My Daughter
Classical Piano on Tuesday's
Irish Step Dancing Thursday's
Taditional Irish music Piano and Fiddle on the weekends.

Dad
Work all week.
Traditional Irish Music Thursdays Eve
damn I'm late got ot go.


So do you change your IRD # by "crypto -u -ssn xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" as stated earlier?

Yes.

[AlphaWolf]

yep

[BigDog]

I would think the only way to stop us would be to make all of the guide data come through the phone calls a la an SA tivo would, but if I am not mistaken, can't you also get a fully working hacked non subscribed SA tivo?


I don't even think that would stop us. With a TiVo net card there's no reason the system couldn't be hacked so the guide data could be downloaded from a website.

I don't really think there is any way for TiVo to shut us down completely, I don't even think it's in their interest to try.

I think the worst case scenario would have us reflashing and reimaging the system to the point where the it's no longer worth the effort to continue to use the TiVo. I don't know about you but I'm sure there would be other PVR companies who wouldn't mind us buying then playing with their systems.

[alldeadhomiez]

Hey, I'm trying to solve the Error #51 issue to help a friend retrieve some long lost recordings... has anyone successfully completed an strace of '/tvbin/crypto -gcn'? If so, what syscalls does it use to obtain the crypto chip ID? Is there any reason why we can't bypass it at the kernel level?

-adh