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Thread: MUX'ing, VSplit, and MPG2 files... #2!

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  1. #1
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    MUX'ing, VSplit, and MPG2 files.

    Ok. This text is a copy of the starting fo rhte the second new Thread I am created in the DTivo forum. Just like there this thread is most definately a discussion of how to produce to mux'ing/working/finished/finalized/ready-to-use MPEG2 files.

    Further it is to be a place where we can all trade ideas, discuss code and applications, be it for the Tivo or just for MPEG2 in general. However there are some rules for this thread.

    Just like before these are rules for this thread, not the forum. If you want to discuss things deemed off limits here make your own threads and set your own rules. But if you decide to participate here then please follow the guidelines.

    So the rules for this thread are:

    1- Leave the flames and arguments elsewhere... Again I am interested in getting things working better and moving forward, not a re-hash of the problems covered in other threads. So here be nice or stay out.

    2- We discuss ANY tools dealing with mux'ing or viewing or editing MPEG2 files or TyStreams... But let's focus on things that are built for TiVo output as this is a Tivo Forum. I am not the only one working on this, and while I intend to have my discussions of things here I have no arguments again others doing the same. If you find a tool that is better that any you have seen before, then share.

    3- NO DISCUSSION OF EXTRACTION. This thread is about MUX'ing and making working MPEG2 files. To do that you have to have elementary streams. So no matter how you get them you have to have them before coming here with ideas or problems.

    4- Feel free to discuss various OS wishes/desires. At some point we should support all of them or at least as many as is possible.

    5- Let's limit the discussion of VSplit to how it interracts with MUX'ing rather than usability or general feature set. We have to discuss VSplit as it is the core of my current MUX'ing engine. Also in the works is a MUX'er for exisitng VSplit output that will stitch it all back together as appropriate for a tivo file that can be done long after the a/v split has been done.

    6- Feel free to ask for features but be aware that I am making no promises except to work on things in general... I mean it. Ask. But don't hound me or any other author, that accomplishes nothing. If you think of something that would be cool let me know. I will add it to the list.

    I would like this thread to be about the previously mentioned "technical amazement" rather than usability in my tools, ExtractStream, etc... That is what the other thread and this forum is for. Here if you find something sweet dealing with MUX'ing/editing then let's all talk about it and move forward in getting to that "perfect" point where everyone is happy.

    The technical discussion of the mux'ing and what is going on behind the scenes will be held in here. Some don't care about it. If all you want to discuss is tools for extraction/splitting then go to the other threads.

    So if anyone has things on their wish list for MUX'ing now is the time and this is the place.

    --jdiner

  2. #2
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    Since we're talking SA...

    I suppose one of the main wishes for most SA owners (certainly for me) is 32kHz->48kHz inline audio conversion. I know you have someone working on this, Josh, but since we're now in the SA forum I thought I'd mention it one last time. Just removing one step from the overall process, but doing it *right*---exactly what everything you've done so far has seemed to do.

    Edit (about 30 seconds later): Actually, I suppose I should have also mentioned 44.1kHz audio. Selfish of me. Once we are thinking of those two, is there any reason not to go to arbitrary frequencies?
    CDJ
    Last edited by chjones; 11-17-2002 at 09:18 PM.

  3. #3
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    Status of MUXing tools?

    [newbie question] Could someone post the status of the various MUXing methods - pros, cons, etc. I know that jdiner is about to release a new muxing program with a new algorithm, and I know that 3rd party apps can also do the job.

    I saw the 74 page thread in the DTiVo forum, but if someone who's been keeping up with everything could post the Reader's Digest version, I'd greatly appreciate it. [/newbie question]

    It appears to me as if the Extraction and Splitting programs are fairly mature, but MUXing still presents some obstacles.

    My ultimate goal is to retain 100% of the quality of the TiVo's recordings (i.e. avoid re-encoding), and be able to play them back on the widest variety of players (SVCD probably). If it weren't, I'd just use my video capture equipment to recapture the shows and re-encode.

  4. #4
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    Re: Since we're talking SA...

    Originally posted by chjones
    I suppose one of the main wishes for most SA owners (certainly for me) is 32kHz->48kHz inline audio conversion. I know you have someone working on this, Josh, but since we're now in the SA forum I thought I'd mention it one last time. Just removing one step from the overall process, but doing it *right*---exactly what everything you've done so far has seemed to do.

    Edit (about 30 seconds later): Actually, I suppose I should have also mentioned 44.1kHz audio. Selfish of me. Once we are thinking of those two, is there any reason not to go to arbitrary frequencies?
    CDJ
    Technically this is a "both" forum. But the answer to that is that the code will allow the for the arbitrary setting of both end-factors. So you can go from 32k to 44.1 or 48 and from 48 to 44.1. I have not looked at it well enough to know if it can go to 32 but doing so is... rather pointless in my mind.

    I have not spent a great deal of time looking at the code. I have been trying to finish things so we can get some real testing done.

    --jdiner

  5. #5
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    Re: Status of MUXing tools?

    Originally posted by Saturn
    I saw the 74 page thread in the DTiVo forum, but if someone who's been keeping up with everything could post the Reader's Digest version, I'd greatly appreciate it. [/newbie question]
    Ok. There was a synopsis from me right near the end. Go to the end of the thread and then carefully page back no more than 5 pages and you will find exactly the answer you are looking for. It was 2 long-ish messages from me right in a row. If I could figure out how to get the direct URL for you I would, but it is not something I have ever bothered to figure out.

    --jdiner

  6. #6
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    Link to the summary

    You can find the recent summary posts here (part one) and here (part two).
    "Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast"

  7. #7
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    Yes, I found the summaries on Page 65, smeghead provided links above, thanks.

    But there was no mention of the current state of using 3rd party tools for muxing. For reference, I only have an SA TiVo, so the DTiVo complications don't come into play for me.

    jdiner, I also want to thank you for the work you've done this far. I checked out video extraction a while ago, and it seemed like it had serious problems and was very complicated to get running. Your TyTool is has made things very easy.

    For now, I'm extracting over my serial / ppp connection. Very slow, but it'll be worth it if I can get my Good Eats episodes off the TiVo and onto CD-R without commercials and without re-encoding.

    I guess my question really is, is this possible right now with current tools?

  8. #8
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    For an SA Tivo stream yes. Just grab it and split it.

    Then mux in the right settings with tmpgenc and you are there.

    If you want to cut commercials and what not it might be more problematic. I have no idea how well that is dealt with. To date most of what is going wrong is solely based on the VFR and VBR nature of the DTivo.

    However, historically there have been problems which is why I have been working so hard on it all.

    --jdiner

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Saturn

    For now, I'm extracting over my serial / ppp connection. Very slow, but it'll be worth it if I can get my Good Eats episodes off the TiVo and onto CD-R without commercials and without re-encoding.

    I guess my question really is, is this possible right now with current tools?
    Wow, can't imagine doing via serial, but if you are determined...

    YES, it can be done, and I do it quite often. I'm putting each episode of Seinfeld (2 per day) on SVCD. (by the way, GOOD EATS - is one of my favorite shows!) This is done with a few 3rd party tools.

    TiVoWeb - (Resource Editor) modify recording to 480x480 2600k
    TyTool5 - extract tystream
    vsplit13c - split to .mpa & mpv
    besweet - upsample 32khz-48khz - audio
    mplex - mux to mpg
    mpeg2vcr - (tools) fix GOP - level2
    mpeg2vcr - edit out commercials
    Nero - > burn to SVCD (turn off standard compliance)

    The last issue (on compliance) to be used at your own risk. They play fine on my stand-alone hardware, but you my want to use Nero to fix things up at that point however.

    Enjoy!
    ~Hi8

    (4) Hughes SD DVR40
    (1) Hughes HR10-250
    (2) xbmc XBOX X2 & xbit

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Hi8
    Wow, can't imagine doing via serial, but if you are determined...

    YES, it can be done, and I do it quite often. I'm putting each episode of Seinfeld (2 per day) on SVCD. (by the way, GOOD EATS - is one of my favorite shows!) This is done with a few 3rd party tools.

    TiVoWeb - (Resource Editor) modify recording to 480x480 2600k
    TyTool5 - extract tystream
    vsplit13c - split to .mpa & mpv


    Hmmm. I have all my Good Eats episodes recorded with Best, which is way too high a bitrate for SVCD. Crap. I may end up re-encoding just to reduce the bitrate so an episode fits on a CD. I could change the bitrate with the resource editor, but that wouldn't do me any good for the many episodes I've let accumulate this far. I imagine that even if I cut the commercials, the combined audio+video would be way too big for a single CD, and I have no plans of getting a DVD burner anytime soon.

    I'm using TyTool5 to do both the extracting and splitting. Is that bad?


    besweet - upsample 32khz-48khz - audio
    mplex - mux to mpg
    mpeg2vcr - (tools) fix GOP - level2
    mpeg2vcr - edit out commercials
    Nero - > burn to SVCD (turn off standard compliance)

    The last issue (on compliance) to be used at your own risk. They play fine on my stand-alone hardware, but you my want to use Nero to fix things up at that point however.

    Enjoy!
    Can't mpeg2vcr also do the mux'ing? Does it do a poor job compared to mplex? I can't seem to find mplex available for download, and I've also seen many posts on this board of people using it and creating unviewable and uneditable mpegs. Can you post your command line, and perhaps a place to download a Windows binary of mplex?

  11. #11
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    I give up, why is everyone posting to a Sticky Note? That's not their purpose.

    Oh no, I just posted to it too! Circular logic will trap me here forever.

  12. #12
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    I made it a sticky on purpose. I wanted it to stay at the top of the display in this forum for now. So that it would be obvious where we had all moved too during the transition.

    So it is my fault. Blame me. Everyone else does.

    --jdiner

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Saturn

    I'm using TyTool5 to do both the extracting and splitting. Is that bad?

    Can't mpeg2vcr also do the mux'ing? Does it do a poor job compared to mplex? I can't seem to find mplex available for download, and I've also seen many posts on this board of people using it and creating unviewable and uneditable mpegs. Can you post your command line, and perhaps a place to download a Windows binary of mplex? [/B]
    no, TyTool5 and vsplit13c - GOOD!


    I never used mpeg2vcr to mux, not sure why fitting a 21min episode on SVCD would be a problem. My episodes are approx. 450m after editting. - plenty of room. You can try using Nero to "fix" the bitrate - to SVCD standard.

    (edit) I mento to say I use Besweet to upsample to 44100khz


    here is a copy mplex for win32
    Last edited by Hi8; 11-18-2002 at 04:39 AM.
    ~Hi8

    (4) Hughes SD DVR40
    (1) Hughes HR10-250
    (2) xbmc XBOX X2 & xbit

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Hi8
    no, TyTool5 and vsplit13c - GOOD!


    I never used mpeg2vcr to mux, not sure why fitting a 21min episode on SVCD would be a problem. My episodes are approx. 450m after editting. - plenty of room.

    here is a copy mplex for win32
    Well, fitting 21 minutes onto an SVCD isn't a problem, but I was trying to do it without re-encoding and suffering a loss of quality. If I have to re-encode, I think I can just use Vegas Video Factory to do the muxing, editing, resampling of audio, and re-encoding, and I'm already familiar with the interface. Then all I have to do is burn it to CD with Nero.

    21 minutes won't fit onto an SVCD at TiVo's default Best quality - 5800KB/s, IIRC. If I have to re-encode, there's a thousand different ways to do it, but I was after the holy grail, much like jdiner, to avoid re-encoding altogether.

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by Saturn

    21 minutes won't fit onto an SVCD at TiVo's default Best quality - 5800KB/s, IIRC. If I have to re-encode, there's a thousand different ways to do it, but I was after the holy grail, much like jdiner, to avoid re-encoding altogether.
    my BEST quality is still set for the default that my SVR-2000 came configured, that being 544X480 5.8m 32khz.

    no mater how you slice it, that is not SVCD-able as is. what ever you do to the 544x480 will result in loss of quality to get to 480x480 SVCD standard. Also the other major issue is the bitrate, by getting to 2.6m another loss of quality.

    I'm not sure what you intended could/would happen during those transistions - but to get to the SVCD standards quality will suffer.

    I have several DVD players (Sony s7700,APEX 600a,APEX 1100w, NEXTBASE DVM4,KOSS 2163) each has it's ability to cope with "standard" formats. I've never tried, but perhaps one of them may actually play the TiVo SA BEST - format. However The problem with fitting anything worth watching time-wize on one CD-R cannot be forgotten as you stated.

    It is clear you have a decision to make or should I say compromise? Because none of my players support miniDVD - my only path is SVCD which I find quite acceptable. Anything I want in the BEST quality possible I go to DVD.
    ~Hi8

    (4) Hughes SD DVR40
    (1) Hughes HR10-250
    (2) xbmc XBOX X2 & xbit

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