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Thread: Issues with DVD Workshop

  1. #1
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    Issues with DVD Workshop

    I was going along being fat, dumb, and happy with SpruceUp until I got the bug to start archiving my favorite shows without commercials. I've tried both TyStudio and TyTool6r3 with GOPEditor. TyStudio still has a lot of issues that indicate it is far from being ready to use, IMO. It has to reindex a file every time you load up a ty file and crashes on me constantly. The resultantant elemental streams are way out of synch so I am unable to use them with SpruceUp.

    TyTool6r3 and GOPEditor seem to be working just fine. I've been a long-time supporter of jdiner and I always seem to keep coming back to his programs. I've been able to extract and edit out commercials with no losss of audio sync and the interface is faster and easier to use than TyStudio. My real issue is with the use of DVD Workshop. I haven't tried MovieFactory yet but I may give it a shot if I can't get the DVDWS issues resolved. Here's a list of the problems I'm having with DVDWS:

    1. Importing videos into DVDWS - I realize this is a function of the program and that everyone has to deal with it. It doesn't take any longer than importing an elemental stream into SpruceUP so I don't have a problem with the initial importing of the program. What I don't like is the fact that it has to relink with the mpeg files every time I open up a project that was previously saved. This can sometimes take almost as long as the initial importing process.

    2. The length of the video clips doesn't always agree with the actual length of the segment. This is a problem when trying to insert chapter stops because the indicated duration is usually shorter than the actual program time. DVDWS won't allow me to add chapter stops beyond the point where it thinks the program actually ends.

    3. I constantly get the error message "Some chapter entry frame numbers exceed the total frames" when trying to compile the project to a VIDEO_TS file. The program simply stops dead with no indication of where the error actually occurred. I can usually see where the problem is by looking at the VOB files in the VIDEO_TS folder. The problem is, I don't know if the error occurred as a result of the video clip that was just processed or if it choked on the next segment it was about to process. I think it's directly related to my 2nd comment above. I think that TMPGEnc isn't rewriting the headers correctly to reflect the new size of the output mpg file. It's like the old frame numbers are being retained resulting in frame numbers higher than the actual frame count for the edited segment. I'm using TMPGEnc version 2.55.38.142.

    Do I need a different version of TMPGEnc? If so, which one?

    Is there any sort of workaround or process to avoid the frame number vs. total frames error?

    4. Sometimes the program locks up and the only way to get out of it is to use task manager to terminate the program. I usually have to reimport everything when I open the project again.

    So far I have only been able to author one DVD with multiple shows (Children of Dune miniseries) using DVDWS, and it took me many, many tries to get it to work. I've followed Pr. Sinister's procedure to the "T" and still have the aforementioned issues. Any insights or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I'm starting to run out of storage space on my drives and I need to start offloading some shows to DVD ASAP.
    Please don't PM me or any other members looking for personal assistance. You'll do better by posting (after you've exhausted the search feature, of course) and taking advantage of the collective expertise of the membership instead of a single individual that may or may not be able to help you. Thank you and enjoy your stay at DDB!

  2. #2
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    I also find a sync issue with tystudio. The index speed issue can be handled if you don't copy to the PC first.

    Why don't you just use Spruce Up. It seems to work well for you and the patch means you don't have use DVD Patcher first?

    I am progressing from IFOEDIT and can't really see a reason not to use Spruce Up. Am I missing something?

  3. #3
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    Because of the synch issue with TyStudio, I can't use the elemental streams it produces with SpruceUp. I can still use SpruceUp if I don't want to edit the commercials but that's the whole point of this thread. I want to be able to author ty files to DVD that have been edited. TyTool6r3 doesn't produce the elemental streams that SpruceUp requires so SpruceUp is unfortunately not an option in this situation. DVD Workshop requires mpg files which TyTool does generate. Unless Olaf & Co. can get the synch issues fixed with TyStudio, I'm forced to use DVD Workshop, DVD MovieFactory, or some other authoring tool that requires mpeg files to work with. I haven't tried any of the other programs like DVDiT and I haven't played around with MovieFactory yet so I still have other options if I can't get DVDWS to work on a regular basis.
    Please don't PM me or any other members looking for personal assistance. You'll do better by posting (after you've exhausted the search feature, of course) and taking advantage of the collective expertise of the membership instead of a single individual that may or may not be able to help you. Thank you and enjoy your stay at DDB!

  4. #4
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    I've been griping about DVD workshop for months when importing 480x480 files. Patching the header to 352 somehow moves the chapter points around. I've been bugging Ulead for a patch to turn off the re-compiling of "non-compliant files" or a way to enable the custom frame size feature to allow me to import 480 files directly without re-encoding the video. Ulead tech support just sucks.

  5. #5
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    Why can't you demux the mpg file from tytools to elemental streams and then use it with Spruce Up?

    Just started playing with Spruce Up and not looking to waste time if it won't work.


    Originally posted by captain_video
    Because of the synch issue with TyStudio, I can't use the elemental streams it produces with SpruceUp. I can still use SpruceUp if I don't want to edit the commercials but that's the whole point of this thread. I want to be able to author ty files to DVD that have been edited. TyTool6r3 doesn't produce the elemental streams that SpruceUp requires so SpruceUp is unfortunately not an option in this situation. DVD Workshop requires mpg files which TyTool does generate. Unless Olaf & Co. can get the synch issues fixed with TyStudio, I'm forced to use DVD Workshop, DVD MovieFactory, or some other authoring tool that requires mpeg files to work with. I haven't tried any of the other programs like DVDiT and I haven't played around with MovieFactory yet so I still have other options if I can't get DVDWS to work on a regular basis.

  6. #6
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    Why can't you demux the mpg file from tytools to elemental streams and then use it with Spruce Up?
    Nice idea in theory but in reality it doesn't want to work that way. SpruceUp will take the elemental streams produced by either tydemux or tysplit but it won't accept the demuxed elements from an mpeg file. I've tried importing demuxed files back into SpruceUp but I get GOP temporal reference errors right off the bat. It just doesn't like them.

    SpruceUp's great if you want to create a 1st play movie similar to IFOEdit or if you want to add menus and chapters without any editing involved. If you want to just compile a few shows to a single DVD then it's a simple matter of adding chapter stops at the end of the commercial breaks. When a commercial kicks in, simply hit the chapter skip button on your remote and the DVD player will jump right past the commercial to the beginning of the next show segment.

    My problem is that I have a large number of episodes of several series' that I want to archive to DVD. Due to the large number of episodes (180 for Seinfeld and 110 for Babylon 5), I can drastically cut down on the number of DVDs required to compile the sets if I eliminate the commercials. I've been making copies of the Seinfeld series for several other people and it is extremely time consuming to copy 30 DVDs at a clip. If I can add 9 or 10 episodes to a single DVD as opposed to 6 then I can reduce the number of discs by at least one-third.
    Last edited by captain_video; 04-28-2003 at 05:44 PM.
    Please don't PM me or any other members looking for personal assistance. You'll do better by posting (after you've exhausted the search feature, of course) and taking advantage of the collective expertise of the membership instead of a single individual that may or may not be able to help you. Thank you and enjoy your stay at DDB!

  7. #7
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    I only tried once and got the GOP errors, I thought i was doing something wrong.

    I guess we'll have to wait for a new release from either Josh or Olaf. Someone posted a guide using mpeg2vcr. It's supposed to work well but it's not cheap.



    Originally posted by captain_video
    Nice idea in theory but in reality it doesn't want to work that way. SpruceUp will take the elemental streams produced by either tydemux or tysplit but it won't accept the demuxed elements from an mpeg file. I've tried importing demuxed files back into SpruceUp but I get GOP temporal reference errors right off the bat. It just doesn't like them.

    .

  8. #8
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    Someone posted a guide using mpeg2vcr. It's supposed to work well but it's not cheap.
    That's because you're not looking in the right places. You can actually download it from Womble's website without paying for it. You have to pay to get the activation key. A little web searching and perseverence may reward your efforts, but you didn't hear that from me. Besides, everything I'm hearing about mpeg2vcr is that it only works with SA Tivo streams, at least as far as the GOP fixer is concerned. It's not supposed to work on DTivo tystreams.
    Please don't PM me or any other members looking for personal assistance. You'll do better by posting (after you've exhausted the search feature, of course) and taking advantage of the collective expertise of the membership instead of a single individual that may or may not be able to help you. Thank you and enjoy your stay at DDB!

  9. #9
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why can't you demux the mpg file from tytools to elemental streams and then use it with Spruce Up?

    I don't seem to have any of these issues with SpruceUp or dvdIT PE or DVDMaestro. Audio synch works on mine BUT i can't seem to get a good DVD burn in the right rez at all, comes out centered on tv 480X480.. Seems to be that way no matter what options i save tystudio files in.. Funny how i read of audio synch, gop, problems which i don't have and read nothing on rez problem that i do have? I guess thats why its called testing, been testing ty studio files in CCE, nice results but nothing workable yet in DVD format....Weird too, on a few files that worked, i saw something telling me that dvd would work on pc-dvd p;ayer and not stand alone, another new problem i guess...

  10. #10
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    I hear your pain

    Captain Video - I'm a lurker generally... thanks for the excellent posts, hopefully I can return the favor.

    Excellent writeup of the problems. I too have been a spruceup, chapters after the commercials, kind of guy and wanted to put these new tools through the paces. My source is DTivo.

    I previously put Tytool/Gopeditor through the paces, but with older versions. At the time (and I don't know if it is fixed) a demux/mux step was required that caused me to abandon this. I had some experience with DVD MF (not Workshop) during this previous session.

    So last weekend I put, TyStudio Beta 1 and 2, mpeg2vcr and dvdlab to the test (along with DVD MF again).

    Now I've got to say, I really like SpruceUp and if these tools worked without the Gop errors, temporal reference problems then I'd be there. I found TyStudio Beta 1 actually worked with Spruceup 30% of the time. I couldn't get Beta 2 and spruce to work at all.

    I need chapters and this rules out DVD MF. The chapters take FOREVER to set and they never end up where they are supposed to be.. the comments about these being calculated incorrectly because of patched headers makes sense, but doesn't solve the problem DVD MF is to me a last resort now.

    I saw posts of mpeg2vcr and there are a number of replay users using this tool. There is actually a groundswell support for getting a group discount of tivo/replay users... see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=237874

    OK so mpeg2vcr's GOP fix tool provided some great progress. At first I was hoping that this could be used to get Spruceup working.. nope. But I did get DVDLab to work without sync problems.. put not on everything.. and I can predict when it will work and when it won't.

    So there are problems with the GOP fix function... it truncates the output, but I figured out a work around for this too... The amount missing is related to the size of the mpg (try to gop fix a small file and only a small truncation occurs). I use TmpegEnc's Cut function and create a second mpg that is just the portion of the original that got is missing. I then run this second (tail) mpg through mpeg2vcr's gop fix on its own, merge the two gop fixed mpegs (w/ TmpegEnc) and then run gopfix one more time on the merged output (which will have only type 1 errors). You can easily make the second (tail) mpg just be the last portion of a show after the last commercial and in the merge of the two gopfixed mpgs just trim the first (head) mpg to stop before the last commercial break.

    So all these steps are a pain and I found them with trial and error but the result is imported into dvdlab, which will demux them and I can set chapter points.. There is never any patching of headers with DVDPatcher.

    Now DVDlab when it imports and demuxs the merged gopfixed mpg will identify it as SVCD or 2-3 pulldown. If it identifies the mpeg as SVCD then there is NO audio sync problems, if it says 2-3 pulldown then there is. I have no way to predict when the detection will be one or the other, but I have no sync problems when SVCD is detected.

    Needless to say, while I don't think I'll use this "process" to author DVD's now... I can see that DVDLab may be the better tool than Spruceup or DVD MF. Since DVDLab, Tytool and TyStudio are all actively being developed by "friendly" (as opposed to corporate) developers, I have hopes that these developers may solve the barriers to solve this.


    Hope this helps...

    =alanjudy

  11. #11
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    Mpeg2vcr has been used by Replay owners for quite some time (i.e. several years). The Replay units record video streams that are a perfect match for mpeg2vcr. My original Replay recorded the audio at 32kHz and had to be transcoded just like the SA Tivos. Replay upgraded their 4000 series units so that they would record audio at 48kHz and require no transcoding. I had originally planned on using my Replay units for extracting videos and editing with mpeg2vcr until I discovered the world of DTivos. Needless to say, once I switched over I never looked back. If Replay ever developed a DTV PVR then they would have had a clear winner, IMO.

    I haven't had a chance to check out DVDLab yet but it certainly looks promising. Everything I've seen so far indicates that it is not yet compatible with Tivo ty streams so I'm in a "wait and see" mode with DVDLab. I went abck and tried TyStudio again to compile a 5-episode DVD of Babylon 5 episodes. I can't tell yet if there's a sync issue as I haven't had a chance to preview the shows I processed last night.

    One weird thing I've found with TyStudio elemental streams when imported into SpruceUp is that sometimes there seems to be an "invisible barrier" beyond which you cannot set a chapter stop in a processed file (i.e. edited). I noticed this once before when I tried authoring a 2-hour episode of Children of Dune. If I select the clip properties in SpruceUp and then adavance the slider beyond this barrier point and hit play, I get no audio. However, if I move the slider to a point just prior to this barrier and let it play, it will play right through the barrier point and continue on with full audio. If I try to set a chapter beyond this point, the red chapter flag will snap back to the barrier point and won't let me move it to the right.

    One thing I've found with SpruceUp is that it's the most versatile authoring tool available without a lot of frills. Once you import a clip, you can save the project and close the program and open the clip right back up with no wait. It's amazing what this program can do with a little imagination. I was able to set up a menu with multiple windows that displayed the title of each episode taken from captured frames in the video clips just like DVDWS. I have yet to find a program that's as easy to use when setting up chapters.

    The more I use DVD Workshop, the less I like it. It's painfully slow and reminds me of something that Microsoft would have dumped on the market. There's a lot of fluff without a lot of substance. I would never use 90% of the features it has since I have no interest in capturing video from a camcorder at this point in time. I'll probably use it from time to time for longer programs that I want to archive since TyStudio seems to have synch issues more with long programs than short ones.
    Last edited by captain_video; 04-29-2003 at 08:04 AM.
    Please don't PM me or any other members looking for personal assistance. You'll do better by posting (after you've exhausted the search feature, of course) and taking advantage of the collective expertise of the membership instead of a single individual that may or may not be able to help you. Thank you and enjoy your stay at DDB!

  12. #12
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    I agree on DVD MF... waste of time, waste of money.

    But you should give DVDLab a shot, I like it better than SpruceUp, it is very simple and can do things that Spruce can't (like have the end of one episode automatically go to the start of the next episode or go back to the title menu (like spruce))

    The trick right now with DTivo streams and DVDLab appears to be scrubbing everything through the Gopfix function in mpeg2vcr...

    There is still a sync issue in 2-3 pulldown recognized content, but the standard 480x480 (which is recognized as SVCD) content works well. (Well at least for 2 DVDs so far :-)

    =alanjudy

  13. #13
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    I've spent the last week trying to author a 5-episode DVD of edited Babylon 5 episodes using both TyStudio and TyTool/GOPEditor. TyStudio was working fine, up to a point, but I discovered that every episode eventually started losing sync around the last one or two cut segments. The sync wasn't off by much but just enough to be noticeable and definitely annoying. This occurred with each and every 1-hour episode I edited using TyStudio.

    I went back to DVD Workshop with TyTool and I have started making some progress. Part of my problem was that some clips would have an enormous amount of bad packets when run through TMPGEnc for re-muxing. I'm not sure what the resolution is for this other than using a different ty file which, unfortunately, isn't always an option. I also ran into a problem where DVDWS completely locked up during the compile process. As it turned out, one of the clips wasn't patched properly even though it showed up as 352X480 @ 3.5MBit in DVD Patcher. I repatched it and it worked fine after that.

    I've found that I can import the clips and compile them one at a time and test them in PowerDVD while leaving DVDWS open in the background. This prevents me from having to reimport and relink the clips every time I open DVDWS back up. If I find that one of the clips isn't liked by DVDWS, I just re-edit it in GOPEditor and TYTool, remux it in TMPGEnc and then go back to the capture screen in DVDWS where I get a message indicating that the mpeg file has changed. I just re-link to the new file and continue on without having to reimport or relink any of the other files.

    So far, using any authoring software with edited ty files has proven to be a labor and time intensive task. I found that I had to patch the entire files back to 480X480 @ 15MBit instead of just the 1st VOB header. The individual clips would display a momentary glitch due to the patched header at 352X480 at the beginning of each segment. One thing I dislike in DVDWS is that it runs all of the clips together into one set of VOB files instead of compiling separate VOB files for each clip like in SpruceUp. This causes the clips to play from beginning to end in succession. I like having the DVD return to the menu after playing a selected clip instead of being forced to manually intervene and terminate playback.
    Please don't PM me or any other members looking for personal assistance. You'll do better by posting (after you've exhausted the search feature, of course) and taking advantage of the collective expertise of the membership instead of a single individual that may or may not be able to help you. Thank you and enjoy your stay at DDB!

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by captain_video
    ...
    I've found that I can import the clips and compile them one at a time and test them in PowerDVD while leaving DVDWS open in the background. This prevents me from having to reimport and relink the clips every time I open DVDWS back up. If I find that one of the clips isn't liked by DVDWS, I just re-edit it in GOPEditor and TYTool, remux it in TMPGEnc and then go back to the capture screen in DVDWS where I get a message indicating that the mpeg file has changed. I just re-link to the new file and continue on without having to reimport or relink any of the other files.
    .....

    Actually my fellow peeps If you run it through TMPGENC,(source audio and video = mpg generated by TyStudio) I guarantee you will be happy.

    I know it takes longer but something TMPG does fixes the problems you are experiencing.

    Try it, what the hell , right?

  15. #15
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    Actually my fellow peeps If you run it through TMPGENC,(source audio and video = mpg generated by TyStudio) I guarantee you will be happy.
    If you reread the previous post you'll see that I already run it through TMPGEnc. While it may fix some of the sync issues, especially if there are cuts made in the middle of the clip (and all of mine have them), it can't fix a bad tystream that is seriously whacked. I've had some streams that indicated over 39,000 bad packets when remuxed with TMPGEnc and had audio sync off by several full seconds. I couldn't even run the ty file through TyStudio without getting a wide GOP gap error every time, even after relocating the cut points numerous times.

    I've found a workaround that allowed me to burn a DVD using the aforementioned bad ty file and still maintained perfect synch throughout. I authored a DVD with 5 one-hour episodes of Babylon 5 but the one episode just wouldn't cooperate until I tried the following fix. Here's what I did:

    1. I edited the four good episodes as I usually do using TyTool6r3 and GOPEditor. I remuxed them with TMPGEnc to fix any potential synch problems and then patched the 1st header to 352x480 @ 3.5MBit.

    2. I edited the bad episode by cutting each unwanted segment (i.e. lead-in, lead-out, and commercials) from the ty file, leaving me with six individual mpeg files which I labeled as a thru f.

    3. I imported the video files for the four good episodes as well as the six mpegs for the 5th episode.

    4. I created an opening splash page with a button linked to an episode menu.

    5. I created an episode menu with thumbnails of the title screen from each episode linked to the 1st chapter of each episode clip.

    6. For the episode with the six mpegs, I created a submenu with chapter buttons linked to each of the individual mpegs. In the Edit screen, I scrolled to each of the six mpegs and right-clicked in the title selector window and selected the After Play option as Next Title for the first 5 mpegs. For the sixth mpeg I selected the Last Menu option. The Last Menu option is the default setting and causes the DVD to return to the episode menu following the completion of any clip playback. By selecting the Next Title option, the clip will proceed to the next mpeg in the series until it finishes the final clip, whereupon it returns to the chapter menu I created. I also added a return button on the chapter menu that is linked to the main episode menu so I can return to the episode list by selecting it.

    7. I've been patching all of the VOB files in their entirety to 480x480 @ 15MBit. I have noticed minor glitches at the beginning of each clip where the 1st header had previously been patched to 352x480 @3.5MBit. Since DVDWS compiles the entire project as a continuous set of VOB files, the patched headers end up scattered all throughout the compilation when burning multiple shows on a single DVD so it just seems to make sencse to repatch the entire file to keep it consistent throughout.

    The episode with the six mpegs does have a slight, but tolerable, stuttering at the beginning of one or two of the clips but quickly settles out before any dialogue begins. The clips remained in perfect synch throughout each clip and all transitioned flawlessly to the next segment as if they were one entire mpeg file.
    Please don't PM me or any other members looking for personal assistance. You'll do better by posting (after you've exhausted the search feature, of course) and taking advantage of the collective expertise of the membership instead of a single individual that may or may not be able to help you. Thank you and enjoy your stay at DDB!

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