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Thread: TyTool Alpha #8r3, VSplit beta #3.41, DVD output...

  1. #811
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Audio Problem

    Originally posted by Toddler
    Which is also one more reason why the SA TiVo is such a wonderful machine...I'll take it over a DirecTiVo any day.
    Uh...riiight. You don't really have much experience with video encoding, do you? Your SA TiVo has analog inputs and a very simplistic encoder. If you want a prayer of matching the quality of the visible portion of a DTiVo stream you're looking at 12-15x real time with a dedicated >2GHz machine to filter and recompress, if you're lucky and your source is pure. DTiVo-compliant DVD players are about $40 or so now. You're spending more for media due to excessive bandwidth than if you got a compatible player.

  2. #812
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Audio Problem

    Originally posted by FredThompson
    Uh...riiight. You don't really have much experience with video encoding, do you? Your SA TiVo has analog inputs and a very simplistic encoder. If you want a prayer of matching the quality of the visible portion of a DTiVo stream you're looking at 12-15x real time with a dedicated >2GHz machine to filter and recompress, if you're lucky and your source is pure. DTiVo-compliant DVD players are about $40 or so now. You're spending more for media due to excessive bandwidth than if you got a compatible player.
    I'd be willing to invest that time to have compliant video any day. I don't think I'm alone here either.

    jdiner has provided an excellent tool for us so far, and can't give him enough thanks, but compliant video would be the missing peice to this whole puzzle.

    My two cents.
    Last edited by anddmx; 12-01-2003 at 11:13 AM.

  3. #813
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    you may not be alone, but i'd bet you're way in the minority. there are so many dvd players that can play dtivo stuff, and so few that can't. in fact, i wonder how many players can't handle dtivo but can do other vid burned onto dvd-r or +r.

    i can't speak for josh, but i'm betting that he's not going to implement re-encoding of the entire stream just to make it dvd compliant.

    if this is what you want, there are tools out there to do it. knock yourself out!

    ronny

  4. #814
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    I have a DTiVo and a standalone. I think I've used the standalone maybe once in the last six months. The DTiVo looks so much cleaner, no analog artifacts at all. My DVD player plays back DTiVo discs just fine, as do the players of all the friends I've loaned discs to. So if you want fewer episodes per disc (from the increased data rate due to the higher resolution) and/or a lengthy and lossy re-encoding process, well, more power to you, but I'll stick with my DTiVo.

  5. #815
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    I'm starting to understand why Josh gets so frustrated with people who refuse to read and comprehend.

    It is impossible to create standard DVD video without re-encoding DirecTiVo source. When you do that, you take a huge hit in time and quality. This is not negotiable. It is not a question of opinion, two cents, or anyone's hopes, dreams, or wildass guesses. It is a technical impossibility.

    Additionally, SA TiVos create comparatively lousy MPEG2 streams compared to "offline" compression. MPEG2 has time-based components which cannot easily be calculated on the fly, especially with cheap encoding chips like those in a SA TiVo. For all the quality issues with DirecTV I-frame blockiness and fuzz in the overscan areas, their encoders cost a buttload more than your $200 retail SA TiVo. Subtract the cost of the hard drive, power supply, and A/V out circuitry from an SA TiVo and what's left for the encoding circuitry? Almost nothing.

    Having said that, if you still want 100% compliance with the DVD spec, drop me a note at doom9.org and I'll gladly tell you where to spend $2000 to get appropriate hardware and software to use with a dedicated 2+ GHz PC. You can expect a maximum of 2 hours of processed source per day. Use the AviSynth script I've posted there for use with AVI2SVCD.

    It will also be your fun task to figure out how you are going to record the source material at a decent resolution. Composite out? Nope, that cuts the effective resolution to 1/2 that of the DTiVo in both directions and you get all that wonderful corruption from combined signals. S-Video? Better, but still lower resolution in both dimensions. Firewire out? To what? An HDTV recorder? May as well buy a Canopus capture card if you're going to do that. Throw another $1000 into the budget. You'll need hard drives also, big ones, and more than one, better make that another $2000. Can't afford the Canopus card? Guess you're recording to analog tape or a cheap camcorder which means analog (lack of) quality or you've just halved the color resolution.

    DTiVo source will never be ocmpliant with the DVD spec no matter how much anyone hopes, wishes, dreams or deludes themselves. Accept it and recognize why it's still the best option for quality video in a convenient manner. It's not perfect. It's just the best option now for the price.

  6. #816
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    Re: Audio Problem

    Originally posted by cojonesdetoro:
    The ultimate solution is to change the Tivo recording
    resolutions so they're DVD compliant.

    Interesting... Could someone point me to information on how
    to change the Tivo recording resolution?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  7. #817
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    DVD compliance isn't just resolution and that statement is not correct.

    The ultimate solution for DVD compliance is DVD source.

    Analog cannot and will not give you D1 resolution, nor is the vast majority of available programming available at that size anyhow.

    You certainly can capture at full D1 but you'll be wasting a lot of space. IOW, a 720x480 version of a 352x480 (max) analog transmission is an incredible waste of space.

  8. #818
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    DVD compliant video

    If you guys really want to have a compliant DVD, why not dish out a little more $$ and get one of those Tivo with a DVD recorder? or how about just get a DVD recorder? Then everything is compliant. Just my two cents.

    Originally posted by bettervideo

    Interesting... Could someone point me to information on how
    to change the Tivo recording resolution?

    Thanks,
    Bill
    ummm...perhaps you didn't notice the title of the thread... TyTool Alpha #8r3, VSplit beta #3.41, DVD output...it states nothing about Tivoweb
    Last edited by andy_ho; 12-01-2003 at 02:39 PM.

  9. #819
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Audio Problem

    Originally posted by FredThompson
    Uh...riiight. You don't really have much experience with video encoding, do you? Your SA TiVo has analog inputs and a very simplistic encoder. If you want a prayer of matching the quality of the visible portion of a DTiVo stream you're looking at 12-15x real time with a dedicated >2GHz machine to filter and recompress, if you're lucky and your source is pure. DTiVo-compliant DVD players are about $40 or so now. You're spending more for media due to excessive bandwidth than if you got a compatible player.
    FredThompson,

    Save the insults, please, and leave me out of the camp who doesn't understand encoding and compliance issues. Yes, there are some green peas here, but I am not one of them. I'm sure others here remember buying CD-Rs at $4/each back in the day (and making a bunch of coasters, too), so DVD media is pretty affordable as far as I'm concerned. And for the things I do with my TiVo, my primary objective is compatibility.

    If you think the only issue is whether I can afford a $40 player, you have a narrow way of thinking. I'll try to explain and perhaps you will realize that your way isn't necessarily the best way for everyone.

    For starters, the DVD player in my 2004 Nissan Quest doesn't play 480x480, and I'd bet most factory-installed DVD units don't play 480x480 either. The sole purpose in having the DVD player in the minivan is to play DVDs of my kids' favorite shows. I never debated quality, but on the 7-inch LCD hanging from the ceiling of my Quest, the video quality of the SA TiVo looks every bit as good as it would from your DirecTiVo. It also looks wonderful on grandma and grandpa's TV, and when the kids go to friends' houses, they look great there also. The discs I make for the kids play on just about any player in anyone's house.

    Again, I never debated the quality of DirecTiVo vs. SA, but I do happen to be more than satisfied with the quality. On occasions when I archive other shows, they are typically documentaries such as Nova or American Experience, or occasionally sitcoms like The Larry Sanders Show. I can get two hours at best quality or three hours at high quality on one DVD-R/RW disc. Best quality with rare exception looks just as good as the source. High quality looks nearly as good except for during brief bursts of fast-motion images. I also have the advantage of being able to record from other sources such as archiving VHS material, which can't be done with a DirecTiVo. And this may be what opens me up to your next insulting attack, but I happen to subscribe to both cable and DirecTV, and honestly, DirecTV's quality doesn't always blow me away, either. On Sundays when I flip between NFL Sunday Ticket and my local broadcasts, I sometimes prefer the local broadcast. The Sunday Ticket signals typically look soft and washed out by comparison. So if I care about the quality and it's available on DVD, I wouldn't TiVo it anyway. I'd just order the DVD.

    Again, the bottom line is simply that I prefer knowing that my discs will play on just about any DVD player, now and into the future. I don't have to explain to someone why the show I recorded for them works on my player and not on theirs.

    Now save your insults and school someone else next time. I know what I'm doing and I know what works for me, and I didn't belittle or insult anyone else for doing things differently. Why do you always seem compelled to do so?

    Toddler

  10. #820
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    That wasn't an insult. It was an observation. If I was insulting you, you would have known it. I challenge you to show me where I've posted unprovoked insults. With my relatively high post count, it's probably happened, but very, very rarely and was most likely followed by an apology when I realized how my typed comments would have been received. Perhaps you were confusing my comment to you and the one to anddmx.

    Your particular situation with the embedded player is a qualifier which you conveniently left out of your post. Had you elaborated, this wouldn't have happened.

    edit: ok, in retrospect, my tone was too much of an attack. For that I apologize for that aspect of the post.
    Last edited by FredThompson; 12-01-2003 at 06:45 PM.

  11. #821
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Audio Problem

    Originally posted by Toddler
    Which is also one more reason why the SA TiVo is such a wonderful machine...I'll take it over a DirecTiVo any day.
    Hehehe. To each their own. That is all I can say. I have both types. My SA has not been powered on in 8months or more. I would never give up the smaller size of the DTivo TyStreams. To me it is better to spend $45 on a Mintek 1600, which will play DTivo streams perfectly, and get tons more on a disk.

    But again to each their own. Anyone wanna buy a nice, lightly used, SATivo?

    --jdiner

  12. #822
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    AND THE REFEREE STEPS IN! HE'S STOPPING THIS CONTEST!! (etc.etc.)

    Toddler, Fred,

    1. Thank you for passionately stating your views.
    2. Fred, thank you for apologizing.
    3. Toddler, thank you for defending your honor.
    4. You both know more about this stuff than I will ever learn, and I enjoy the technical knowledge you share. Naturally, I don't enjoy the barbed wrappers which occasionally creep in.
    5. Please continue to pound on the facts as you know and/or see them, and don't pound on the table.

    I hope you both have turkey left over...now go and enjoy some.

    Regards,

    - Stu

  13. #823
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    Hummm....

    Interesting...

    Was thinking about what Toddler had written about needing compatibility etc...

    I am not going to transcode the entire thing. It is possible. Infact I know how to do it. But it would be a lot of work for something that personally I am not interested in. As mentioned in a recent post by me my own personal interests lie towards the highest quality visual picture.

    But I was thinking about how to best make output that was "as compatible as possible". I have had a few new ideas about that. Things that I had thought were impossible, or at least impossibly difficult, before are much more reasonable now after how much more has been learned and implemented.

    Hummm. Patching up the streams could be nice for some people. For those going right to VOBs it is unneeded. For those using other tools it could be a "miracle".

    I dunno. I will have to think about how involved I want to get in that end of the project. As it opens me up to tons of "XXX still fails to work with this clip"... and then my trying through trial and error to figure out what went wrong.

    --jdiner

  14. #824
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    May 2002
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    SATiVo superior to DTiVo -- Ha..

    I can say hands down.. as I own 2 of each... DTiVo no contest is by FAR the better box.

    not to start anything here, just to set the record straight, making a statement that an SA is superior is just NOT true.

    It has it's place in my home ONLY to dupe VHS or personal vids via the analog inputs to be inserted to another TiVo.

    If I were just trying to encode from TAPE I wouldn't even use the SA, royal pain doing manual recordings, and or faking out a scheduled one... via unused channel. I prefer my Adaptec VideOH! PIC card for that.

    I must admit, I can easily see the difference between the two boxes, and I even use the DVD comp. settings on my SA for recording. (not that I use it much)

    I would also like to know if anyone wants to buy an SA (or 2)!
    ~Hi8

    (4) Hughes SD DVR40
    (1) Hughes HR10-250
    (2) xbmc XBOX X2 & xbit

  15. #825
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    Jun 2003
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    Originally posted by jdiner
    Hummm....

    ...

    I dunno. I will have to think about how involved I want to get in that end of the project. As it opens me up to tons of "XXX still fails to work with this clip"... and then my trying through trial and error to figure out what went wrong.

    --jdiner
    Personally, I think your original inclination was correct, make it work for what you want it to do, then worry about all of us freeloaders! I'm prefectly happy to use whatever you come up with, as long as there's a way to get shows from my TiVo and put them on CD & DVD. As has been mentioned, there are several applications that will allow you to convert the output to almost anything you like. The last think I want to see is you get pulled in ten different directions and just lose interest in the whole project.
    I collect old pistols, got any?

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