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Thread: TyTool 9r8 - Extraction/Frame Accurate Editing/DVD output...

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsmod
    If there's a bug here, that's fine, and I'm happy to help test and debug.
    It's no bug. Your seeing the frames in "stream order" instead of "decoder order" because that's the actual sequence in the file. We're making hard cuts and then re-encoding. Don't wanna leave that odd field in there, do ya?


    edit:
    replaced frame with field
    Last edited by Fugg; 02-09-2004 at 02:35 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugg
    It's no bug. Your seeing the frames in "stream order" instead of "decoder order" because that's the actual sequence in the file. We're making hard cuts and then re-encoding. Don't wanna leave that odd frame in there, do ya?
    We're seeing the fields in transmission order, but the frames in playback order? Uh, OK. Without having tried to code it, it seems like that would be harder to do than putting everything in playback order.

    If that's the case, then I'd like to see either the button I mentioned in my last post, or add some additional logic to flip things around for editing.

    -Z

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by malfunct
    It doesn't show up in the mpeg, but if you are making a cut in a GOP that "fades to black" when you get close to all black you will see black frame, then picture, then black, then picture, then black black black....
    I just found one that was a hard cut to black.

    picture, picture, picture, black, picture, black, black, black.

    Assuming I cared about not having a frame of black at the end (I don't), where would you put the cut?

    -Z

  4. #49
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    picture, picture, picture<cut

    taking "Assuming I cared about not having a frame of black at the end" as meaning he wanted no black frames at all
    Last edited by Fugg; 02-09-2004 at 10:32 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsmod
    I just found one that was a hard cut to black.

    picture, picture, picture, black, picture, black, black, black.

    Assuming I cared about not having a frame of black at the end (I don't), where would you put the cut?

    -Z
    I think you actually want the cut a couple frames into the black, so you don't get an audio blip at the end.
    Malfunct

    HDVR2 - 120hours - Extraction enabled
    SD-DVR40 - Unhacked (for now)

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugg
    picture, picture, picture<cut
    Ouch. I don't think so. I cut well into the black. Are you guys trying to make cuts that look like there was never a commercial? That doesn't make much logical or artistic sense to me. Have you ever seen a TV show released on DVD such as 24? They leave the black frames in on purpose. Cuts without black frames are jarring.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toddler
    Ouch. I don't think so. I cut well into the black. Are you guys trying to make cuts that look like there was never a commercial? That doesn't make much logical or artistic sense to me. Have you ever seen a TV show released on DVD such as 24? They leave the black frames in on purpose. Cuts without black frames are jarring.
    Well, I'm working through finally cutting TechTV's masscre of Max Headroom. There are these interstitals they put at the ad breaks (because ads for ZikZak are too much like the real thing?) and I want them out. There is rarely more than one black frame between the fade out of the interstital and fade in of the program. With the fields flipped, it's hard to make sure I'm cutting right there.

    Speaking of such things, does anyone have any good ideas on joining two different .tys? Josh mentioned at one point that there was code to cat two files together buried in TyTool, but no UI was exposed. I have a few episodes where TechTV did that stupid "update" thing and took over 1/3 of the screen to tell us what's on next. I have several episodes where that was done in different places at different airings, and would like to cut them together to make a "clean" copy. Any suggestions on how to pull this off would be appreciated.

    Finally, I have one .ty that has some glitches in it. Nothing too objectionable when viewing it, but the timecode resets in several places. As you might imagine, the .cut file for this is a mess
    Code:
    # This cut file created by the TyTool GOP Editor...
    
    00:00:00.000   00:04:39.926     -1   24
    00:03:08.100   00:05:49.694     56   95
    00:06:16.015   13:15:21.858     -1   -1
    00:10:14.042   00:10:31.779     98   -1
    00:12:09.675   00:14:46.649     -1   45
    00:20:53.515   00:23:37.262    133   -1
    00:33:39.530   00:36:35.056     -1   -1
    00:43:08.649   00:21:58.121     -1   -1
    # Done!
    Is this file beyond hope, or is there a trick to getting good output from this one?

    -Z

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by malfunct
    It doesn't show up in the mpeg, but if you are making a cut in a GOP that "fades to black" when you get close to all black you will see black frame, then picture, then black, then picture, then black black black....
    Yeah this is indicative of the behaviour I have seen as well.

    Jdiner mentioned it in one of his posts and it doesn't show up as anything bad in the final product. My assumption is that jdiner grabs frames as he finds them in the file and gets later fields before earlier ones because thats how they are in there.
    Woah woah woah. Be careful about putting words in my mouth. Especially when they are not accurate. Sadly this assumption is wrong.

    It is true that what is extract from the tivo is in broadcast order. IPBB which becomes IBBP and so on. But everything I do in the cutting process is done in display order It has to be. Trust me. You CAN NOT decode in the wrong order. You would be predicting off of things not in the buffer.

    I am definately not just using things as I find them. There are truly whacked out things happening in a DTV stream. But if you take them as a whole you can detect and handle many of these things.

    In the FAE editor process I don't have that kind of context. It makes it seriously difficult to correct for certain types of errors. When actually doing the processing I have access to everything as I have a known starting point and things flow from there.

    I tell you what. I will get into a much more detailed explanation of what exactly is going on inside of the DTV stream and we can move on from there. It is entirely possible that it is something I missed, misunderstood, or even a bug. I am doubtfull about the bug because of the testing I have done etc... I will fill in the blanks on the internal testing as well.

    --jdiner

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugg
    It's no bug. Your seeing the frames in "stream order" instead of "decoder order" because that's the actual sequence in the file. We're making hard cuts and then re-encoding. Don't wanna leave that odd field in there, do ya?


    edit:
    replaced frame with field
    Ok. I am not sure what exactly you meant here. if decoder order == broadcast and strem order == display or play order then you are right. I am forcefully putting things back in place in the proper order.

    I can turn the debugging prints back on so that you guys can see that for yourself if you would like. It gets annoying when you have tons of cuts but if you want to see it...

    --jdiner

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toddler
    Ouch. I don't think so. I cut well into the black. Are you guys trying to make cuts that look like there was never a commercial? That doesn't make much logical or artistic sense to me. Have you ever seen a TV show released on DVD such as 24? They leave the black frames in on purpose. Cuts without black frames are jarring.
    I personally agree here whole heartedly. I try to leave 6 fields of black after the last bit that faded etc... Alternatively when there is a large black block in the middle of data elements I try to split the middle. It works exceptionally well.

    --jdiner

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsmod
    Code:
    # This cut file created by the TyTool GOP Editor...
    
    00:06:16.015   13:15:21.858     -1   -1
    00:10:14.042   00:10:31.779     98   -1
    00:12:09.675   00:14:46.649     -1   45
    00:20:53.515   00:23:37.262    133   -1
    00:33:39.530   00:36:35.056     -1   -1
    00:43:08.649   00:21:58.121     -1   -1
    # Done!
    Is this file beyond hope, or is there a trick to getting good output from this
    What on earth?

    The 13.15.21.858 is the special code for the last cut in a file. It must literall be the last key field in a file. I.e. it is something I do not something mpeg does.

    As for the 43min -> 21min. You can do that manually. I just checked and the ordering and overlap code isn't present in the GopEditor. I was working a few things over and ran into errors and it got commented out at some point and never put back. But if this is a double reset PTS then the codebase I don't think has ever handled that properly. It can be fixed but you are going to have to hang out for a bit. There appear to be a number of things going on here that are wierd...

    --jdiner

  12. #57
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    Ok boys and girls. I am just a bit too tired to try and get into a lengthy explanation tonight. So if anyone was still around and waiting for it. Check back in the morning. I will post what is going on there and we can move from there.

    --jdiner

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdiner
    What on earth?

    The 13.15.21.858 is the special code for the last cut in a file. It must literall be the last key field in a file. I.e. it is something I do not something mpeg does.
    I should have offered a little more explanation. The timecode reset a few times during the course of the file. There are visible glitches in the video, and (sometimes) at that glitch, the timecode resets or jumps backward. The 13.15.21.858 *was* the last cut. But the beginning of that cut was after a few timecode jumps. GopEditor sorts the cuts so that it showed up in the middle of the list.

    As for the 43min -> 21min. You can do that manually.
    I didn't, though. I'm actually glad that was there. That was the only place there was a glitch in the middle of a cut.

    It can be fixed but you are going to have to hang out for a bit. There appear to be a number of things going on here that are wierd...
    No big deal, I'm pretty sure I have a cleaner copy of this episode somewhere. Do you have a sample of a file like this, or would some part of this be useful to you?

    -Z

  14. #59
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    I look forward to the full explanation, but two thoughts come to mind:

    If you can sort this out from context with the full file, can you add a flag (perhaps in a private data packet) at the beginning of each GOP?

    Edit: Thinking about this more, the only place this would matter is in the key file, where the I frame is all that's included anyway. Adding a flag to that frame would help carry the context into the editor(s).

    Alternately, it's pretty easy for a human to detect that things are flipped, so as an interim solution, a key/button that flips fields would be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdiner

    In the FAE editor process I don't have that kind of context. It makes it seriously difficult to correct for certain types of errors. When actually doing the processing I have access to everything as I have a known starting point and things flow from there.

    I tell you what. I will get into a much more detailed explanation of what exactly is going on inside of the DTV stream and we can move on from there. It is entirely possible that it is something I missed, misunderstood, or even a bug. I am doubtfull about the bug because of the testing I have done etc... I will fill in the blanks on the internal testing as well.

    --jdiner
    Last edited by lsmod; 02-09-2004 at 04:29 AM.

  15. #60
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    Question Doh! Feeling rather stupid.. but still need the answer.

    Ugh. I can't believe I did that. Nor that I'm about to do this.

    I just had a nice long post on how stupid I am not to be able to figure this out, with all the nice bits about what I was doing to make the question easy to answer. Then the browser quit. So long , 20 min of typing.

    so- in short, I've tried reading the docs, (too many- not easy to figure out which to read for the first time user, most being update /new version info.)

    and the posts, and no one else seems to have this problem. and Everyone seems to be getting past it w/ flying colors.

    I haven't used TyTools in at least a year... so no clue why this isn't working, but i've been using various tivo tools for a good long time. If this isn't obvious to me, at this point.. it must be that I'm just not getting the gestalt. Flame Away.

    I have a new machine. PC. can finally run TyTools effectivly, so I decided to give it a shot. Download 9r1. download cygwin. Run. No Problem.

    Download .ty via MFS-FTP. (no mess / no commitment install :-)

    1.Make Key file. select. add. process. no problem. file.ty

    2.edit key file. select add file.key process. -- Edit. can't tell if it's a CUT list or the list of things to keep in, but guessing cut out of file list. Figure it'll be obvious on processing. save file.cut

    Noticed in readme's, that to make VOB's, don't bother with Multiplex, or Split Mux. Go straight to VOB-MUX Files

    3.Select from menu. Selection window comes up. lists only file.ty. Title of window implies it can be a .ty, .key, or .cut.

    **So how in the devil do you get it to take file.cut when file.ty is the only thing listed? **


    I'm sure I'm doing something stupid, and didn't notice some option. On the other hand, I've managed to use TyStudio, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Sizzle, and various others for various things, and this is the first time I'm feeling like an ***** for asking....



    Matthew

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