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Thread: hacker ethics (split from: HD-TIVO exploit bounty)

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    Why is ptvupgrade allowed to SELL the work from this board?

    This post implies it's sanctioned because users can "talk to the seller" when they have problems.
    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...07&postcount=3
    AND they are making money from it.

    However thier web site links to this board in thier support section.
    Seems like there is money being made here after all.
    PTVupgrade has an agreement with the authors of the hack in question. That is also why they are allowed to close eBay auctions and prosecute violators of the copyright.

    They also run their own forums for support. I'm not seeing any obvious links to DDB on their support page: http://www.ptvupgrade.com/support/

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by alldeadhomiez
    PTVupgrade has an agreement with the authors of the hack in question. That is also why they are allowed to close eBay auctions and prosecute violators of the copyright.
    They also run their own forums for support. I'm not seeing any obvious links to DDB on their support page:

    http://www.ptvupgrade.com/support/netready/
    http://www.ptvupgrade.com/support/DVRchive/

    Does the "agreement" provides for financial compensation to the developers?
    They are getting $75 to ("recertify") reload the image on a hard disk, not too shabby.
    Thier software also seems to disable encryption, and is bundled with TyStudio and TyTool. They make money by selling you a drive with all the hacks installed or they will just SELL you the software to do it yourself. Yet this bothers no one?
    Is this the real problem you guys had with Sleepers ISO? Cutting into "instant cake" ?
    I really don't see the difference between this and EBAY.
    I didn't see any EBAY sellers linking here for support!
    Last edited by Tiros; 08-05-2004 at 03:16 PM.

  3. #63
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    1) the initial work in quesiton was not done here

    sure the contributors are DDB members (who worth talking to isn't?) but there's no killhdinitrd dev thread or open discussion till after the bounty challenge


    2) tivo has taken steps to protect their ip by shutting down anyone offering images online - ptvupgrade is still allowed to distribute - ergo they have tivo's blessing

    they "officially" fill the gap between cluelless cust svc rep on the phone & sending the unit back to the factory


    3) ptvupgrade has agreed to make a sizable donation to the EFF. when the dust settles & I have a final total for DDB user challenge donations they're MATCHING it

    if you believe the copyright is valid then the licensing is valid

    if you believe it's bunk then ptv just got conned into donating to a worthy cause. either way the donation is cheap insurance against legal problems so they got their money's worth


    4) the util is FREE for anybody willing to dl the attachment from DDB. any fool could write a script that includes an "insert floppy now" stage

    the ebay lusers are going to run with this anyway, the donation alone is worth sanctioning ptvupgrade


    5) if ptvupgrade shuts down just 1 ebay scammer with a VERO complaint I'm tickled, pretty sure HD TeAm is too. it's likely to be lots more than just one


    6) don't like it? that's fine. if you develop something usefull you can do whatever you want with it
    ---
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by rc3105
    6) don't like it? that's fine. if you develop something usefull you can do whatever you want with it
    If I do it will be free, anonymous, and no strings attached.

    I wasn't really talking about the new exploit. The guys from Ebay were not selling the new exploit either. I'm talking prior to this whole EFF thing. They are SELLING existing tools they got for free and are using existing tools for profit. The worst possible crime according to this board.

    Yet the Ebayers are continually railed upon here, for doing virtually the same thing that ptvupgrade currently does. I'm sure ptvupgrade has made more money on this than any Ebay scammer.
    Last edited by Tiros; 08-05-2004 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #65
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    oh fine, make a reasonable argument...

    anything released gpl runs the risk of being sold in an aggragation. (kinda sucks, don't gpl if that's a concern)

    hopefully jdiner's makin a few cents off each copy or at least banking some karma for a future life, that's his beeswax since he didn't gpl

    so far ptvupgrade hasn't used anything without at least a nod from the author - that's more than we can say for some of the "heros" around here


    ddb welcomes everyone but doesn't generally spoonfeed

    lotta decent people on ebay, it's the sleaze that piss us off

    ptv is willing to "just make it work" for a fee - that's the way the world works


    *moderate viewpoints are SO much harder to defend sometimes...
    ---
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day and drink beer

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rc3105
    no offense, but with all those cameras isn't london pretty much the original season of big brother?
    I live in Somerset, the UK version of Waltons country, so don't know about London.

    Cameras are actually very popular here, and people campaign for them to be put in, because the criminal element go and be criminal where there are no cameras, and people (rightly) judge our government agencies to be utterly useless and therefore incapable of even thinking about actually using the CCTV footage for anything sinister.

    The more worrying one is the increasing pressure for GPS-based car tracking systems to do usage-based road charging and implement mandatory speed limits by physically stopping cars going faster then they are allowed in a given area.
    Stuart

    Newbies - see if your questions are answered here Experts - can you add to the knowledge stored here? Developers - are your hacks listed here?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by alldeadhomiez
    Obviously you are jealous of HD TeAm for stealing the spotlight from you. Cry me a river.
    Actually, I commend *baseless accusation removed* HD TeAm for **** their accomplishment.

    I am not jealous (and the proper word would be envious). I'm not envious either.

    However, I stand by my preivious remark that your actions & remarks are childish. There is a big difference between copyrighting for good reason and copyrighting just to be a dick. Your actions border on both.
    Last edited by rc3105; 08-05-2004 at 09:23 PM. Reason: lets not start this again - personal info is off limits

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by malfunct
    Actually, nothing created by an individual or non-government organization (unless paid for with public funds and some other wierd things) is in the public domain until after the creator has released it there. Its semantics but JJ was right with his statement. The other way to say this is in the united states everyone is constitutionally guaranteed copyright until they give up that right or until thier claim on copyright expires.
    ok i get it now, its automatically copyrighted.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper
    Actually, I commend *baseless accusation removed* HD TeAm for **** their accomplishment.

    I am not jealous (and the proper word would be envious). I'm not envious either.

    However, I stand by my preivious remark that your actions & remarks are childish. There is a big difference between copyrighting for good reason and copyrighting just to be a dick. Your actions border on both.

    not cool.....

  10. #70
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    Sleeper:

    you imply that you have developed a similar hack, If you were smart, and wanted to really pull off a coup, now would be a good time for you to release your hack.

    Anyway all is not lost, you were delevoping a knoppix distribution with built in ethernet support. Just figure out how to make your script download the patch/software/whatever and your scripts can work weel within the license.

    Question: is the hack copyrighted or just the code?

    another question: can you write a patch to fix the tivo code then copyright it with the explicit stipulation prohibiting TiVo itself from using it to fix their machines?
    Last edited by AVD; 08-05-2004 at 11:29 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper
    Actually, I commend you (since I have evidence that you are part of HD TeAm) and HD TeAm for your/their accomplishment.

    I am not jealous (and the proper word would be envious). I'm not envious either.

    However, I stand by my preivious remark that your actions & remarks are childish. There is a big difference between copyrighting for good reason and copyrighting just to be a dick. Your actions border on both.
    Some forums will endure endless badgering, false accusations, and name calling from their users. That is not how we work here, as you are well aware. There are certain standards of conduct that apply to everyone, no matter how many fanboys they have.

    So, I commend you for lasting this long with such a bad attitude. I hope you have enjoyed your stay, and soon find another community that is better suited to your interests and abilities.

    Goodbye, Sleeper. I really am sorry you chose to end it this way.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVD
    ok i get it now, its automatically copyrighted.
    K, here are some useless points on copyrights.

    Federal protection (there's cannot be state-based copyright) attaches as soon as an original work of authorship is reduced to a tangible medium of expression. For code (and pseudo-code), it is protected as soon as it's written down on paper or punched into a computer, for example.

    The act of "registering" a copyright is a separate thing from protection itself. Registering a copyright provides additional rights/benefits, such as the right to sue. But it is not necessary for a program/code to be protected in the first place, which is automatic.

    Another thing to note is that the public has the right to engage in "fair uses" of someone else's copyrighted work. There are factors that dictate whether a use is fair (i.e., whether someone can use another's work without incurring liability for infringement). News reporting, educational purposes, and commentary purposes are the usual fair use reasons, but are not always "fair."

  13. #73
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    If the Tivo kernel is GPL than isn't any modification/deriviative work also under the GPL?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    If the Tivo kernel is GPL than isn't any modification/deriviative work also under the GPL?
    nope, you can distribute kernel modules that are closed source. the gpl isnt viral. it is only viral if you use their code in your stuff.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    Why is ptvupgrade allowed to SELL the work from this board?

    This post implies it's sanctioned because users can "talk to the seller" when they have problems.
    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...07&postcount=3
    AND they are making money from it.

    However thier web site links to this board in thier support section.
    Seems like there is money being made here after all.

    This is all very interesting; there are a bunch of posts here I'd like to respond to, but I chose this one because it is most representive of the issues I care about. The following is a bit of a rant, but I think its all good and I really don't mind if people want to pick on folks here, as long as the community truly does remain a community/family (all members of a family don't have to get along all the time....)

    I do not just SELL the work from this board. What I have done, for the past four years, is provide a service to those who can't or don't want to upgrade their TiVo systems themselves. A brief history here -- I started PTVupgrade when "BlessTiVo" was released and backing up and upgrading a TiVo was difficult and time-consuming. Granted, the tools are much easier to use today however, its more complicated than ever - many folks wouldn't even know where to start.

    Yes, we have PRODUCTS that are based upon GPL code that is released both here and at tivocommunity.com. TiVo has PRODUCTS that are based upon GPL code. GPL is part of what makes this part of the world go around. That is the spirit of the free software movement.

    As ugly as the Ebay situation might appear to be, there is nothing inherently wrong with it. The fact that it has inspired folks to do newer and better things is good - innovation won't occur without competition. The downside, relative to the community, is that the Ebay hawkers don't give a shit about the DDB and/or don't appear to give anything back to the community. That is their choice, but its what is inspiring the controls HD TeAm is putting on their release.

    Am I happy that I am paying top dollar to redistribute tools based upon the newly released hacks that are not considered GPL? Well, its bittersweet. I am happy to have a competitive edge. I am not happy that it costs money. Such is the nature of the beast.

    As for making money on it... its a relative term. I'd like to think I am profitable. But honestly, we are so busy supporting customers, and developing products based upon these technologies, that I don't have time to do the finances.

    What I do know is this - I do my best to give back to the community. I sponsor this board. I sponsor TiVo Community too. I spend more money / month on sponsoring these forums than I spend on the mortgage for my house, here in Chicago.

    DVRchive client tools are a free download; people don't have to spend money on pre-configured drives to use it, if they are willing to install the extraction tools on their drives themselves. Our LBA48 CD is free, as well. We spend money and time maintaining these distributions. InstantCake is CHEAP relative to the numbers of hours I spent scripting things.

    The emerging relationship I have with folks on HD TeAm is good on a number of levels. The money I'm spending to license the software is going to some good causes, and also helps to defray costs, and motivate continued development from the members. HD TeAm could have simply licensed the tools to someone and not offered them for free to DD, so I think the plan is good on a number of levels; the only folks who will actually pay for anything are the folks who don't/can't do it themselves - there will be value to them from our service, and the tools we develop. And money will continue to flow back to the community; this is why we think DD member should be happy that HD TeAm licensed to PTVupgrade.

    Here's another way of looking at it... in the past four years, I've built PTVupgrade up significantly. Its been hard work, and a lot of fun. I quit my real job (a very well-paying job at Sun) to pursue this as a full-time challenge almost three years ago. We finally have some name-recognition, and a great service for the growing numbers of non-technical folks who want to enhance their TiVo devices. Like it or not, we do take care of our customers, and as long as I'm doing this, I plan on continuing to do so.

    What I see for the long term is an opportunity to build the relationship with the developer community, continue to provide leading products and services to the growing numbers of folks who want to upgrade their TiVo systems, support the products we develop, and continue to fund the devlopment community, etc etc...

    I honestly don't see how this could be considered a bad thing in any way, shape or form, but I'm certainly open to discuss any alternative perceptions.

    Thx,
    Lou

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