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Thread: Sleeper vs. mods

  1. #1
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    Sleeper vs. mods

    You know, I've been following this whole fight for a while, reading back on old posts, and trying to figure out where things went so horribly wrong.

    Honestly, as an independant third party, Sleeper got the raw end of the deal. Hey -- maybe you guys (mods) know something I don't; but you really do come of as arrogant & condescending when you post back and forth with Sleeper and the like.

    I don't know guys, to me, it did seem like there was a big double-standard, and that Sleeper wasn't treated fairly.

    Maybe I'm condemning myself by saying this, but in case you wanted an honest opinion, this was just how one average Joe saw it played out.

    Maybe others saw it differently...
    "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reconsider your position." -- Mark Twain

  2. #2
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    I agree with what you are saying. I believe you are correct.

    However, sleeper should have known the score and went elsewhere to get his word out.

    With more and more colorful characters being shown the door, the number of interesting threads is going down. Only support and development threads will be left.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsysblh
    With more and more colorful characters being shown the door, the number of interesting threads is going down. Only support and development threads will be left.
    Considering that this forum is supposed to be about support and development that doesn't seem to be a problem.
    Malfunct

    HDVR2 - 120hours - Extraction enabled
    SD-DVR40 - Unhacked (for now)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbellomo
    I don't know guys, to me, it did seem like there was a big double-standard, and that Sleeper wasn't treated fairly.
    I agree 100%. Since a few of us used to be on good terms with Sleeper, he was given a lot more chances than he probably deserved.

    He really wasn't a bad guy to work with, but he became extremely arrogant around the time he and Tiros worked on the HR10-250. Meanwhile, other groups far surpassed their (trivial) accomplishment, and posted logs to prove it. When we refused to allow non-technical flamebait/flamewars to be posted in the development forums, per our standard policy, he became angry and began to bash us at every opportunity.

    At any rate, the decision has been made and the subject is closed for public discussion. If you have something to say, send me a PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by alldeadhomiez
    I agree 100%. Since a few of us used to be on good terms with Sleeper, he was given a lot more chances than he probably deserved.

    He really wasn't a bad guy to work with, but he became extremely arrogant around the time he and Tiros worked on the HR10-250. Meanwhile, other groups far surpassed their (trivial) accomplishment, and posted logs to prove it. When we refused to allow non-technical flamebait/flamewars to be posted in the development forums, per our standard policy, he became angry and began to bash us at every opportunity.

    At any rate, the decision has been made and the subject is closed for public discussion. If you have something to say, send me a PM.
    As always there are two sides to a story.
    For such a "trivial" hack it certainly did create a stir!
    This thread has already debated this subject at length:

    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=35241

    There is a lesson here. Glory is a good thing, in fact it's really the only reward there is with something like this. There is no need to be ashamed of glory being your motivator. If you did the work you are entitled. To maximize your reward you have to package up your stuff so that everyone can use it. Yea, I know, developers don't have to do anything they don't want to, be grateful for what we give you etc, learn linux, read the forum etc. etc. IMHO the measure a great a hack is determined by the quantity of people using it.

    Sleeper packed up all the loose ends around here in an easy to use ISO. The authors of the "meat" of his script were deprived of thier rightfull recognition and noteriaty. Sleeper got the glory. I honestly believe that this was not his intent. He was actually just trying to help. He wanted people here to like him.

    I understand fully why that pissed some people off. The popularity of his script overshadowed the work of the "meat" that was the real hack. If I was responsible for that "meat" I would have been pissed too. I don't think anyone predicted this would happen. It just did. I fully appreciate why some people feel robbed. This copyright issue is clearly targeted at preventing this from happening again.

    The HD prom exploit was looking like the similar events were about to replay, backs were already up, and the war began. How ironic that niether Sleeper, ADH, or HD Team can take credit for the original work performed by Musclenerd.

    My guess is that both Sleeper and ADH have had enough of each other.
    Since ADH is a mod, he gets the last word.
    I regret to see that it has come to this.

  6. #6
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    From reading lots of posts from both sides (about Sleeper and not about Sleeper). It would seem that some people have a big problem with the "spoon feeding" that Sleepers ISO gave. Those people believe you should have an intimate knowledge of what is going on before you have the "right" to hack your Tivo rather then blindly follow guides or click a few buttons and have everything done for you.

    I think Sleeper TRIED to maintain some middle ground there as the script sort of told you what was going on as you went along in an attempt to educate the user.

    But I have seen a lot of negative reaction to both sleepers iso and guides not because "the person using it has no idea whats going on", but because "it makes it too easy".

    There has to be a middle ground between having it all handed to you in a script and having to sift through literally tens of thousands of posts.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by malfunct
    Considering that this forum is supposed to be about support and development that doesn't seem to be a problem.
    Unless it drives away would be developers who dont mind sharing thier hacks

  8. #8
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    I think the ISO eliminated a lot of potential headaches for the "meat & potatoes" developers. Sleeper had to support his own ISO, and it seems like a lot of the repetitive newb questions were transferred from their plates to Sleepers.

    Isn't that a good thing in the long run?

    --Timo
    "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reconsider your position." -- Mark Twain

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    Unless it drives away would be developers who dont mind sharing thier hacks
    Some would say this is not a problem. I'm unsure of their reasoning. But, I do respect their position relative to mine.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SledgeHammer
    From reading lots of posts from both sides (about Sleeper and not about Sleeper). It would seem that some people have a big problem with the "spoon feeding" that Sleepers ISO gave. Those people believe you should have an intimate knowledge of what is going on before you have the "right" to hack your Tivo rather then blindly follow guides or click a few buttons and have everything done for you.

    I think Sleeper TRIED to maintain some middle ground there as the script sort of told you what was going on as you went along in an attempt to educate the user.

    But I have seen a lot of negative reaction to both sleepers iso and guides not because "the person using it has no idea whats going on", but because "it makes it too easy".

    There has to be a middle ground between having it all handed to you in a script and having to sift through literally tens of thousands of posts.
    It doesn't take a genius to notice several standards for behavior here. It's sort of like 'Animal Farm' - all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Someone includes a slur about Sleepers sexual orientation and gets an encrypted message - but apparently wasn't banned. This same person posts a number of scripts with names that are a play on TiVoScripts and Sleeper and nothing is done. One person who complained is banned. Sleeper suggests politness should be expected of everyone - and is bashed.

    I've seen several criticisms of Sleeper and his iso (TiVoScripts).

    A few (DB in particular, and his 'offspring' derided it because it wasn't perfect. True, but it was a heck of a lot better than trying to follow broken links, searching for files which no longer existed to perform hacks which were already outdated.

    Others (myself included) complained about the large number of clueless newbies flooding the board. On the other hand, there were a lot of not so clueless newbies that used TivoScipts to do the initial Monte, then quickly learned the 'meat' - usually extraction.

    Like you, I have noticed there were complaints that it made the process too easy. Personally, I prefer a documented procedure that helps you understand WHY you are doing a particular operation. At one point I obtained a procedure "How to Monte". It consisted of a series of steps you were expected to follow, including long command lines without a shred of explanation of WHY you were doing this. If you screwed up, you had no idea what went wrong - just like with TiVoScripts.

    And lastly, am I the only one who noticed the jibes directed at Sleeper BECAUSE of the popularity of his script? It certainly seemed there were some jealous people, even including at least one moderator.

    PlainBill
    There's a difference between needing help, and just being plain ole' lazy.

    "You cannot teach a man anything. You can only help him find it for himself." Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

    HR20-700 with 2 TB, HR22-100, HR22-100, HR22-100, HR23-100 all running 0x5cd and networked.

  11. #11
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    First off, let me just say that I don't know what went on behind the scenes between Sleeper and the various mods. That's between them and no one else, as far as I'm concerned.

    I had been trolling these boards for close to a year, watching the monte developments mostly, and trying to decide whether I should take the plunge and try to gain access to my SAS2 or not. Being relatively new to the Tivo phenomenon, I was understandably both in love with my new toy and scared to death about hosing it all up if something went wrong during my attempts to monte it.

    Then, after a short hiatus, I returned to find the Tivoscripts thread. That was the bump I needed to give me the confidence to proceed. Even then, I read through the entire thread (70-some odd pages back then) and did several dry-runs in a virtual machine before I proceeded to do it for real. Since then I've learned a lot about my Tivo and how it operates, learned enough about TCL to add thumbs and some other home-brewed code to TivoWebPlus, and have generally become much happier with my favorite toy.

    When the next software update came down the pipeline, I had a pretty good idea from reading the various threads on how I wanted to handle it. But I went back to Sleeper's scripts and used those as a guide to fill in the gaps as far as what was supposed to go where, etc. Now I have an ever better understanding of the layout and purpose of the partitions, what binaries come stock with the Tivo's OS and what needs to be added after the fact, etc.

    I can sort of see the logic in the "it makes it too easy for the uninitiated masses" argument, but in my case Sleeper's ISO was the jumping point from which I learned everything else. I realize that there are probably a lot more people that will just use these "instant cake" utilities to achieve an end result than there are people that would actually take away some knowledge from them, but from my perspective they do serve a useful purpose.

    Anyway, I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the argument.

    -psxboy
    TCD652160 TivoHD
    1TB
    11.0n.J1-01-2-652

  12. #12
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    Well, what can we say...

    Sleeper knew better than to shoot off his mouth at the mods. In fact, he's seen enough of his buddies get penalty boxed or banned for it. He's also done his fair share of bashing, yet expected that anybody who disrespected him in public would be dealt with harshly. Although we don't like to get in the middle between feuding users, we have intervened on his behalf many times (most recently when the "sleeper is a homo" comment was posted) yet he still claims bias. Don't fall for the ruse.

    The TivoScripts ISO was not an inherently evil tool; on the contrary, it proved useful for thousands of members. However, Sleeper, in his effort to make (fake) friends here, tried to market it to "everybody" and misrepresented the level of knowledge needed to use it successfully. In reality, you really do need a reasonably strong troubleshooting/technical background to fix the inevitable problems that come up. What did Sleeper do when inexperienced users had trouble? He added text to his signature saying essentially, "don't bother me about problems you're having with TivoScripts, bother DDB instead." He caused a problem and was unwilling to deal with the consequences himself. Is this why he was banned? Not at all, but we didn't appreciate it - especially when we saw our own research and code being used, without credit, in a way that lowered the overall quality of discussion and diluted our community. We have no interest in pandering to people with no computer background, and do not have the means to spoon feed them when they have problems. If somebody really has no clue, they can either find a friend who does or hire a reputable third party to do the work and support it. Either way, this isn't the place for them, and it wasn't our intent when the original hacks were posted.

    Anyway, this sort of BS is precisely why so many hacks are released under restrictive licenses now. Developers who wouldn't have given licensing a second thought now face the sobering reality that people can and will use their hard work to promote an unreasonable agenda. Hacking tools like TivoScripts or killhdinitrd will come and go, but distrust is here to stay. That, more than anything else, will characterize Sleeper's legacy.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    As always there are two sides to a story.
    For such a "trivial" hack it certainly did create a stir!
    This thread has already debated this subject at length:

    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=35241

    There is a lesson here. Glory is a good thing, in fact it's really the only reward there is with something like this. There is no need to be ashamed of glory being your motivator. If you did the work you are entitled. To maximize your reward you have to package up your stuff so that everyone can use it. Yea, I know, developers don't have to do anything they don't want to, be grateful for what we give you etc, learn linux, read the forum etc. etc. IMHO the measure a great a hack is determined by the quantity of people using it.
    The trivial hack I was referring to was your PROM socketing and shell on the HR10-250. Again, congratulations for figuring it out, but we can all admit it was quite straightforward since the groundwork had been laid a long time ago.

    There was no excuse for you, Sleeper, THREAD CLOSED, et al. to turn the HD tech thread into a flamewar. The development forums are not and never were the proper venues for unsubstantiated bragging or fighting, no matter what your history or rivalries with HD TeAm or TC were.

  14. #14
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    I knew that all Sleeper did was tie the package together. He never tried to horde the credit for the meat. As for his signature: he heavily support the thread. I think the main purpose of the sig was to make sure assistance was offered where everyone else can see it; in the forum... come on, adh, this is common, and it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by alldeadhomiez
    TivoScripts or killhdinitrd will come and go, but distrust is here to stay. That, more than anything else, will characterize Sleeper's legacy.
    I really don't think so; maybe the "elite" will see it that way...

    but for everyone else -- I think you've basically created a martyr.

    --Timo
    "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reconsider your position." -- Mark Twain

  15. #15
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    anybody else remember back to Canadian Card Cleaners & Extreme 2.5?

    hero abuse & profiteering are NOT new issues


    sleeper knew he was opening a can of worms, if not, he certainly should have

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