Sleeper vs. mods

[splitsec]

I, for one, will miss Sleeper's contributions to the community.

Enough said.

Split

[alldeadhomiez]

I knew that all Sleeper did was tie the package together. He never tried to horde the credit for the meat. As for his signature: he heavily support the thread. I think the main purpose of the sig was to make sure assistance was offered where everyone else can see it; in the forum... come on, adh, this is common, and it makes sense.

Asking people to keep their support questions in the forum is common and makes sense.

Intentionally misrepresenting the difficulty of the hacking endeavor is also common, but it does not make sense. If he wants to do so and then list his email address or phone number to deal with the support problems, fine, but what he did instead was create a problem and then drop it in our lap.

I really don't think so; maybe the "elite" will see it that way...

but for everyone else -- I think you've basically created a martyr.

mar·tyr   (märtr)
n.

   1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
   2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
   3.
         1. One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
         2. One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.

Definition 3.2 is "RIGHT ON!" Sleeper's attempts to paint himself as a victim remind me of the suicide by cop phenomenon.

[Tiros]

Asking people to keep their support questions in the forum is common and makes sense.

Intentionally misrepresenting the difficulty of the hacking endeavor is also common, but it does not make sense. If he wants to do so and then list his email address or phone number to deal with the support problems, fine, but what he did instead was create a problem and then drop it in our lap.

If this is the primary cause for his ban/hatred how come there has never been a single post complaining about sleeper not answering questions or supporting his threads? He in fact did support his ISO in forum. He wanted users to see the questions and answers to avoid redundancy.
He also has maintained other information in other threads not relevant to his ISO just to help users find things easier and organize some stuff. He posts answers to questions in lots of other threads too. I think most objective people will agree he did more good than harm.

I really don't see how increased traffic has hurt this board or the hobby.
Maybe you just don't want new developers here.
Are you afraid of losing your crown?

Maybe his behavior was sometimes inappropriate.
Maybe other behavior has been too.

[alldeadhomiez]

If this is the primary cause for his ban/hatred how come there has never been a single post complaining about sleeper not answering questions or supporting his threads?

Who said that had anything to do with his ban? He was banned for repeatedly harassing the staff and spreading false accusations.

I can't speak on behalf of the haters. Ask them yourself - they're not hard to find.

He in fact did support his ISO in forum. He wanted users to see the questions and answers to avoid redundancy.
He also has maintained other information in other threads not relevant to his ISO just to help users find things easier and organize some stuff. He posts answers to questions in lots of other threads too. I think most objective people will agree he did more good than harm.

Many people here felt the same way about David Bought, but in the end, it was decided that keeping things civil was more important than any technical knowledge he was able to contribute. After several warnings, Sleeper found himself in the same situation, and we were forced to ban him.

I really don't see how increased traffic has hurt this board or the hobby.
Maybe you just don't want new developers here.
Are you afraid of losing your crown?

I like to see new users who can think for themselves and figure things out. I'm hopeful that at least a few Linux gurus who came here from Slashdot this week will stay and get involved.

Although Sleeper preferred to attract users of a much lower caliber than what we prefer, he did not break any rules in doing so and therefore it had no bearing on how we treated him.

Maybe his behavior was sometimes inappropriate.
Maybe other behavior has been too.

Like yours, for instance.

[malfunct]

Sleepers biggest problem is the fact that instead of giving up on being "right" he pushed the issue and in a childish way. I liked tivoscripts even for the problems it brought (and it did) but it doesn't excuse the attitude he got at the end.

[PlainBill]

Well, what can we say...

<SNIP>

The TivoScripts ISO was not an inherently evil tool; on the contrary, it proved useful for thousands of members. However, Sleeper, in his effort to make (fake) friends here, tried to market it to "everybody" and misrepresented the level of knowledge needed to use it successfully. In reality, you really do need a reasonably strong troubleshooting/technical background to fix the inevitable problems that come up. What did Sleeper do when inexperienced users had trouble? He added text to his signature saying essentially, "don't bother me about problems you're having with TivoScripts, bother DDB instead." He caused a problem and was unwilling to deal with the consequences himself. Is this why he was banned? Not at all, but we didn't appreciate it - especially when we saw our own research and code being used, without credit, in a way that lowered the overall quality of discussion and diluted our community. We have no interest in pandering to people with no computer background, and do not have the means to spoon feed them when they have problems. If somebody really has no clue, they can either find a friend who does or hire a reputable third party to do the work and support it. Either way, this isn't the place for them, and it wasn't our intent when the original hacks were posted.

Anyway, this sort of BS is precisely why so many hacks are released under restrictive licenses now. Developers who wouldn't have given licensing a second thought now face the sobering reality that people can and will use their hard work to promote an unreasonable agenda. Hacking tools like TivoScripts or killhdinitrd will come and go, but distrust is here to stay. That, more than anything else, will characterize Sleeper's legacy.

I think you seriously overestimate the knowledge required to run and 'inevitable problems' resulting from TiVoScripts. Granted I may be an atypical user, but the first time I used it, it worked perfectly. On other ocassions I screwed up and it didn't. In every case, the fault was with me - usually because I was trying to get it to do things it wasn't intended to do. The biggest problem is with 'users' who refuse to read the su[pport thread, or don't have a clue as to how to follow them. IMHO, if it wasn't TiVoScripts, they'd expect the same handholding when trying to do the Monte manually.

This is not to say TiVoScripts could not have been improved. Certainly it could have given more information as to WHAT and WHY it was doing. The hacks it installs are now seriously out of date.

If you are going to target Sleeper for his 'Don't PM me... signature, you'd better take a good look around. A large number of the experts have similar signatures.

I find you 'diluting the community' argument interesting. On one hand you have someone like psxboy who siezed upon TiVoScripts, used it to hack his TiVo, then went beyond it, and is now helping others. On the other hand, there are certainly many 'users' (I won't name names) who seemed to have problems following the most rudimentary steps.

One point that just occured to me. My first experience with hacking a TiVo was a Series 1 and 25Xtreme. While I won't claim that 'any ***** could do it', it certainly was easier than TiVoScripts. Was that a product that originated here, or elsewhere?

PlainBill

[PlainBill]

Sleepers biggest problem is the fact that instead of giving up on being "right" he pushed the issue and in a childish way. I liked tivoscripts even for the problems it brought (and it did) but it doesn't excuse the attitude he got at the end.

I hope you realise that while much may have been going on behind the scenes, this user saw very little 'Attitude' on Sleeper's part, and plenty from others.

PlainBill

[malfunct]

I hope you realise that while much may have been going on behind the scenes, this user saw very little 'Attitude' on Sleeper's part, and plenty from others.

PlainBill

Yeah, it was only about 4 or so posts here in the sewer that I remember but they really disappointed me considering what I'd seen from him in the past.

[NutKase]

IMHO, if it wasn't TiVoScripts, they'd expect the same handholding when trying to do the Monte manually.

If they're willing, I am willing.

My only arguement is that if people read and learn enough to manually monte their tivos, they won't ask for help so often since, they will help themselves more often that not.

NutKase

[mrblack51]

Someone includes a slur about Sleepers sexual orientation and gets an encrypted message - but apparently wasn't banned. This same person posts a number of scripts with names that are a play on TiVoScripts and Sleeper and nothing is done. One person who complained is banned. Sleeper suggests politness should be expected of everyone - and is bashed.

that "someone" was asked to change the names of his scripts at various points, and was put in the penalty box for that particular encrypted message. to suggest that nothing was done is simply inaccurate

[alldeadhomiez]

I think you seriously overestimate the knowledge required to run and 'inevitable problems' resulting from TiVoScripts.

Sleeper's stated goal was to make a package that lets the "average joe on the street" hack his Series2. He failed at that, and refused to take responsibility for it.

Our goal is not and never was to offer hacking advice to the "average joe on the street." We will come out and say that there is a certain minimal level of competence with technology (and/or willingness to learn) you will need to be successful. This board is for learning and sharing, not spoonfeeding.

Does that mean we will turn people away or close the Newbie forum? Absolutely not. But it does mean that we believe in being honest with new users about what they will need to learn or know.

[Tiros]

Who changed the name of this post and why?

[alldeadhomiez]

Who changed the name of this post and why?

You got a problem with it?

I really hope you aren't questioning moderator decisions.. after all it would be a terrible shame to lose such an "asset" as yourself.

[Tiros]

You got a problem with it?

I really hope you aren't questioning moderator decisions.. after all it would be a terrible shame to lose such an "asset" as yourself.

Not a problem, just curious as to what was wrong with the original title and if a mod had changed it. Usually a reason is given when a thread is renamed/split. I didn't see anything in violation of forum rules that would require mod intervention.
I guess you answered my question.

You keep harping about how he "dumped" all these "problems" on DDB, yet no one but you (and your main "fanboy") has ever supported that position by posting a complaint. You say that "we didn't appreciate it" and "it had no bearing on how we treated him". BWAHAHAHA give me a break, even the casual user knows what a crock this is. Your actions prove otherwise. You then compare his behaviour to David Bought, saying "he (Sleeper) found himself in the same situation, and we were forced to ban him."
Same Situation?
Please provide links to ANY requests asking for the ban of Sleeper, even one. There were many request to ban DB and he alienated/attacked many a user her before his (haha) ban. I notice that you make liberal use of "we" and "our" in your postings, yet I can't seem to find any posts other than yours to back these accusations/opinions.

When you realize that that story line was bogus and unsupported you then say that he was banned for "repeatedly harassing the staff and spreading false accusations." Why was Sleeper doing this? Think about it, there must have been SOME reason an otherwise HIGHLY PRODUCTIVE user goes on a rampage. I see only one staff member that has a REAL problem, if there are others they are notably silent. I'm not talking minor spats. You are the only one to go into full knock down drag 'em out mode here. If things get too hot you flex your admin muscle. Usually with some kind of unsubstantiated this is "hurting" the board rationalization. If Sleeper really caused all these problems where are the posts (other than yours) complaining about it? You have been dying to ban him/me for a while now and I suspect the other more rational thinking mods here have protected him from you. The recent minor spat with Riley was probably all you needed to tip the scales your way.

Congratulations! You got what you wanted!
If you respond point by point don't forget these questions:
Is the board better for everyone now, or just for you?
In what tangible way has this ban improved the board for it's members?
This is clearly an act of self gratification.

I have never have attacked a user for no reason. When someone says something about me, provokes me, or references my post I will respond. My only problems here were have been with you and your sidekick. You always seem to be the first to respond to anything I post. Noticeably you fail to respond to other people, who you like better, that make the same points as I.
Why don't you respond to PlainBill and answer his post point by point and get off my back!

I know your finger is twitching on that ban button right now.
I hope you don't. You don't have to. I'm not hurting the board.
If you do you it will only serve to prove my point.

[rc3105]

re sleeper:

just for the record I had a MAJOR problem with sleeper - dealt with it in PM

he included my sw without even a courtesy "do you mind?"

the copy was corrupted + one of the binaries was bad.

he had NO idea how to install or fix things when IT DESTROYED PEOPLE'S TIVOS

who do you think had to clean up that mess?

a simple courtesy msg could have avoided a LOT of grief


-----


re Tiros:

fine, you're a sleeper fan. we get that. I'm sure he'll have a HUGE following on TCF if he can play nice

ddb is NOT govt funded - you're a GUEST

MOD decisions are NOT subject to review by members - you & sleeper don't seem to get that. got a beef or a suggestion PM works great. believe it or not we discuss this stuff

what you're doing now is ANNOYING the nice people who VOLOUNTEER their time to manage this mess (tired of hearing it 'n I'm not even the one you're attacking)

take a few weeks off to ponder whether that's really how you want to spend your time