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Thread: Updating the Sleeper ISO

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    ...MY view of the purpose of this forum is:

    To exchange ideas and information and help others enjoy the possibilities that can be had with your Tivo box...
    that's fair enough. the problem is that a hacked tivo is NOT a consumer level device. we're not here to support modified tivos - you break it, you own all the pieces


    say you install a hot-rod control chip in your car's computer, damn well better know what you're doing because the dealer isn't going to warrenty the burned out O'2 sensors, fuel injectors & whatnot or pay the emissions fine at your next inspection


    surely you can apreciate that as an IT guy? the scripts you're writing make your life easier but do NOTHING to help end users understanding. for instance, an accountant that just needs to send e-mail. if one of your scripts sets up outlook and a virus / update / whatever changes the settings he'll have NO idea how to fix it. if he'd spent 15 mins on the isp's "configuring your email" page during setup he'd at least have some knowlege to fall back on

    the core objection from the knowledgeable is no learning required.

    as a practical matter hordes of end users (pure consumers, locusts!) w/o a clue posting the same questions over and over and over and over and not understanding the answers makes the board less usefull and burns out the developers and samaritins that try to help

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by alldeadhomiez
    Your attempt to draw a parallel between TivoScripts and the Hinsdale guide is deeply flawed. Guides don't contain software; ISO images do.
    Okay, so would an all-encompassing "how-to" be okay? If, instead of printing the command on the screen (and then executing it), Sleeper had created a very elaborate how-to, would all have been well?

    Please understand that the method of distribution here is alien to me. I'm used to the format of download.com, etc where it's a nice big file repository, not a 10 page thread with sometimes several generations being included in the thread at various stages.

    So, let's start with an ISO (bootable linux), and instructions to get the latest versions of 14 different programs and put in this particular directory structure, then script the install of all of those?

    You guys seem to be concerned that we understand what the heck is going on... Well, I don't understand what's going on behind the scenes. I have no clue WHAT patching the kernel entails, except that without it, Tivo will wipe out hacks and download a clean version (I think).

    Certain things are pretty simple, such as telnet and ftp. They either work or they don't. They don't "somewhat" work.

    I'd "settle" for (and actually rather have) a scripted install that allows me to use a larger drive, patches the kernel so that Tivo doesn't overwrite everything, enables USB networking, and gives me ftp and telnet access via the network.

    You see, I don't have a clue what all Sleeper's ISO installed, what's necessary and what isn't. I have busybox on my machine... no idea what it is or if I need it (for instance). If you'll get me up and running with ftp to get the files TO the tivo and Telnet so I can run said files, I'm happy. Do I NEED tystudio? Don't know... let me figure that one out for myself. Same goes for tivowebplus. Same goes for this hack or that hack. The fact that I had to go in and do some "clean up" to remove the 30 second skip and something else from the author AND dump tivoweb so I could GET tivowebplus to even load, etc is where I feel the support problems come from.

    As long as I don't sell your utils or start my own "upgrade service", would that work, or is the above paragraph's wishlist script "too much" to be released en masse such that it would empower those who would sell "upgrades" too easily?

    I'll even go one step further. The latest hacking method of the kernel (and I'm botching the name), killinethd, seems to be WHAT allows me to do everything else (run networking, ftp, telnet, etc), charge me $20 for the self-installing patch (but I mean SELF-INSTALLING) and support it and offer future upgrades. "They" offer a license per tivo unit for resale. Honestly, I see no problem with that.

    However, let's look at that fee per unit for resale fee that's being charged. Let's say I am completely up-front and use mfstools to put a larger drive in (and pay $20 for the license), and use killinethd (again, it's so far beyond my scope to even care to spell it correctly) to patch the kernel (and pay the license fee), and load the network drivers (and heck, even a license fee) and load telnet and ftp on it via GPL (assuming they are simple GPLs), and went to ebay and sold 43,000 of them, someone would STILL get upset.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    Please elaborate.
    Since compromising the unit and video extraction work, at the moment, what new ground breaking hacks are still absolutley needed?


    In 1899 Charles H. Duell, Comissioner of the U. S. Office of Patents, resigned, saying, "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

    Boy, he looks like a real dolt NOW, don't you think.

    Who would make such a stupid comment? Only someone without vision or skill to produce anything else.

    This is now the second time I've heard such a ridiculous statement.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by rc3105
    that's fair enough. the problem is that a hacked tivo is NOT a consumer level device. we're not here to support modified tivos - you break it, you own all the pieces
    Yes I do. However, if I break something and ask for help in fixing it, why is that a bad thing. You don't OWE me a fix, but I see no reason why I can't ask and why you can't answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by rc3105
    say you install a hot-rod control chip in your car's computer, damn well better know what you're doing because the dealer isn't going to warrenty the burned out O'2 sensors, fuel injectors & whatnot or pay the emissions fine at your next inspection
    NO DOUBT. However, I will call the company who made the chip and ask for help. Same as I ain't calling Tivo for help when I screw up my .author file. The difference here is of course, the payment. I know what alpha and beta mean and understand the risks involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by rc3105
    surely you can apreciate that as an IT guy? the scripts you're writing make your life easier but do NOTHING to help end users understanding. for instance, an accountant that just needs to send e-mail. if one of your scripts sets up outlook and a virus / update / whatever changes the settings he'll have NO idea how to fix it. if he'd spent 15 mins on the isp's "configuring your email" page during setup he'd at least have some knowlege to fall back on
    But it's cause and effect. Are we not a support forum? Are we not here to support each other and help out where we can?

    Quote Originally Posted by rc3105
    the core objection from the knowledgeable is no learning required.
    But my outlook user doesn't need to code outlook just to be able to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rc3105
    as a practical matter hordes of end users (pure consumers, locusts!) w/o a clue posting the same questions over and over and over and over and not understanding the answers makes the board less usefull and burns out the developers and samaritins that try to help
    And that's why we have newbie central. That's where we foster the learning of each other. The reason the same questions are asked over and over and over is.... inability to USE search. It isn't a lack of trying, it's a lack of knowing what to search for. HALF of my job is understanding how to search for the answers when something goes amuck. We all query support.microsoft.com, but you have to understand enough about the process to know that 1 answer is too few and wading through 500 is WAY too many. But the terminology used is what makes or breaks the usefulness of a search. That is EXACTLY why "information overload" takes place. So, you nudge people in the right direction. In just the last WEEK, I've learned a lot that helps with my searches. There are times I want to strangle PlainBill for not just giving me a freaking 2 second answer. But he tells me not "go search" but "go search for this and this".

    I'm almost thinking we should rename this thread to "observations of a freaking newbie".

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    Okay, so would an all-encompassing "how-to" be okay? If, instead of printing the command on the screen (and then executing it), Sleeper had created a very elaborate how-to, would all have been well?
    You type an awful lot.
    Actually, what would have been okay, would be to participate in these forums, learn all you can (and not spend your time in useless dialectic just for the sake of hearing your gums flap), and then instruct users, teach them to help themselves and learn what they need to know to participate in this hobby and not just get their tivo hacked
    You guys seem to be concerned that we understand what the heck is going on... Well, I don't understand what's going on behind the scenes.
    But you should.

    I'd "settle" for (and actually rather have) a scripted install that allows me to use a larger drive, patches the kernel so that Tivo doesn't overwrite everything, enables USB networking, and gives me ftp and telnet access via the network.
    Then you're not really the person we want here at dealdatabase. Sorry. It's a harsh reality.

    ...killinethd (again, it's so far beyond my scope to even care to spell it correctly)
    Then you're not really the person we want here at dealdatabase. Sorry. It's a harsh reality. If you can't even search the name of the utility before you post about it, in context, then why bother?

    This is not a retail shop. This is our hobby If you want it to be yours, then that's great. If you want us to support your learning in the hobby we're here to help. If you want to make the fruits of the hobby freely available to everyone without having to have them participate in the hobby, then we're not interested.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBliss
    Doubtful Trust me. There are MANY MANY hacks that are NOW private, and there are MANY that have been over the last few years that you have never seen DESPITE sufficient demand.

    Yeah, Yeah, heard it before. MANY MANY hacks.
    Since I started here, the units were already compromised. Didn't need any "Secret" hacks to get bash and extraction. Still don't.
    Now if any of that wasn't working, that would be a high demand hack. Many of the things developed here are really cool and useful, but only a certain percentage qualify as a "high demand" hack. Call me when they integrate the boot rom.

    How come I have never seen the "sufficient demand" for these "secret" hacks.
    So what are they?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    But my outlook user doesn't need to code outlook just to be able to use it.
    And you don't need to know how to code tcl or C to use your Tivo.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBliss
    learn what they need to know to participate in this hobby and not just get their tivo hacked
    You know, that line really sums up the entirety of ddb. This forum is about tivo hacking the hobby which in all reality is more about the doing than it is about what gets done.

    PVTUpgrade is there for you if you just want a tivo that spits out video and ddb is there for the other people that want to in some way learn how things work and participate in the hobby part of it all.

    Thank you JJ for your perfect sumation of what has been forming in my mind for a long time now.
    Malfunct

    HDVR2 - 120hours - Extraction enabled
    SD-DVR40 - Unhacked (for now)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    How come I have never seen the "sufficient demand" for these "secret" hacks.
    Because you are a TiVo leech. You only know what the developers allow you to know. You have no vision, as illustrated by your post above and you have no knowledge of what is possible. You know, things go on that YOU might not know about. Except maybe in the XBOX world.

    So what are they?
    Yeah, OK. That might happen.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBliss
    Because you are a TiVo leech. You only know what the developers allow you to know. You have no vision, as illustrated by your post above and you have no knowledge of what is possible. You know, things go on that YOU might not know about. Except maybe in the XBOX world.
    Yeah, OK. That might happen.

    I don't know why Xbox keeps coming up, but wrt the modchips, an eprom pulled from an old PC, flashed with evox and wired point to point to the mainboard works just as well as the fancy schmancy Executor chips w/lcd readouts etc. etc. This only serves to prove my point. The original exploit still works and groups of so called "developers" jumped on the backs of guys like Bunnie who thought the whole thing up. Now all they do is add bells, whistles, LCD readouts and crap like that and tout the old work as deprecated. They are making money he is not. Does he care? I doubt it since he is an MIT grad and doesn't need to worry about someone making $20 off his work. Now all they do is add bells, whistles, LCD readouts and crap like that and tout the old work as deprecated. Sound familiar?

    I know what's possible, the question is what is REALLY necessary.
    The answer:Bash & extraction.
    Since no one (except the inner circle) is aware of what's so important (since I only know what developers want me to know) could you please enlighten me on what high profile hacks still need to be done.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    but only a certain percentage qualify as a "high demand" hack. Call me when they integrate the boot rom.

    How come I have never seen the "sufficient demand" for these "secret" hacks.
    So far you've used the word "demand" at least seven times in this thread.

    What will it take to make you realize that "customer demand" isn't one of the more important forces that drives TiVo developers, and never was?

    I know what's possible, the question is what is REALLY necessary.
    The answer:Bash & extraction.
    To reiterate: "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

    So you've seen it all. What are you still here for?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    Yes I do. However, if I break something and ask for help in fixing it, why is that a bad thing. You don't OWE me a fix, but I see no reason why I can't ask and why you can't answer.
    we're not here to support hacked tivos, we're here to support tivo hobbyists. plenty of people willing to do that
    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    NO DOUBT. However, I will call the company who made the chip and ask for help.
    who will politely explain you should have had the chip professionally installed to avoid such problems
    [QUOTE=snowman]But my outlook user doesn't need to code outlook just to be able to use it.maybe not, but that's commercial sw designed for end users. using freeware hacks & utils often requires understanding the basic principles
    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    We all query support.microsoft.com
    HA!
    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    you have to understand enough about the process to know that 1 answer is too few and wading through 500 is WAY too many. But the terminology used is what makes or breaks the usefulness of a search. That is EXACTLY why "information overload" takes place. So, you nudge people in the right direction. In just the last WEEK, I've learned a lot that helps with my searches. There are times I want to strangle PlainBill for not just giving me a freaking 2 second answer. But he tells me not "go search" but "go search for this and this".
    and how exactly will an all-in-one installer help with that?

    it makes the situation worse because now the average user with a problem only learned enough to hit enter 17 times instead of spending 3 hours with a good howto

    if you understand the steps in the howto you can fix your own problems, or refer back to it. no lost-in-googlehits search required unless it's a bad howto (and that's another sore point, search for cobelli)
    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    I'm almost thinking we should rename this thread to "observations of a freaking newbie".
    a blind impatient newbie maybe, geez, do a lil reading before you post a novel and for gods sake quit trying to help people

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by alldeadhomiez
    So far you've used the word "demand" at least seven times in this thread.

    What will it take to make you realize that "customer demand" isn't one of the more important forces that drives TiVo developers, and never was?

    To reiterate: "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

    So you've seen it all. What are you still here for?
    If you think that "demand (#8)" has nothing to do with hacking or driving developers your way off base. I really can't believe you would even attempt to spew such garbage. Go ahead and cite even one hack that there was NO demand for. Anything really critical will never be private no matter what you say or do.

    Why am I still here?
    Waiting for a worthwhile project I guess.
    I tried to help when the HD unit came out, and was clearly unwelcome.
    Maybe when they integrate the prom..........

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    ...Anything really critical will never be private no matter what you say or do.
    it's a fancy vcr. the only critical functions are record & playback. tivo cust svc allready supports that. anything else is a hobbyist contribution
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    Maybe when they integrate the prom...
    then you can prove you didn't sleep though Assembly 101 & be a huge hero to the clueless hordes *yawn

    whining & annoying the folks posting usefull stuff is obviously the best thing to do until then

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiros
    If you think that "demand (#8)" has nothing to do with hacking or driving developers your way off base. I really can't believe you would even attempt to spew such garbage.
    Please point out where I said that demand has nothing to do with hacking or driving developers. Really, I'd like to see it.

    Is it "a" factor? Sometimes. Is it one of the more important factors? Not often. Developers here tend to solve problems they're interested in instead of intentionally directing their efforts toward things that are likely to be the most popular releases. Because once again, it's a hobby, not a business. Developers are not accountable to "customers."

    I tried to help when the HD unit came out, and was clearly unwelcome.
    Maybe when they integrate the prom..........
    Getting involved in a Sewer flamewar isn't normally what I would count as "helping."

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