View Poll Results: Want Tivo HMO server to run as an NT Service?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yeah, I hate logging in to my PC all the time!

    7 36.84%
  • No.. I'm always logged in anyways

    9 47.37%
  • I Use My XBOX for Media Streaming!

    3 15.79%
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Tivo HMO Server Service

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    31

    Tivo HMO Server Service

    To my surprise, the streaming media in this tivo v4 OS doesn't communicate via the linux smbclient. In addition, the so called "server" component requires the user who installed the "server" software to be logged into the server in order for the client (the tivo) to communicate with it.

    In my opinion, this is amateurish (flame me.. I know its coming) so I'm considering writing up a small app in C# or VB.NET that would run the Tivo server software as a service under the SYSTEM namespace and inherit the SYSTEM permissions. This way, the tivo would behave like my the rest of the services on my server and run on boot (not requiring a user to login).

    Its a bit too much effort for me to dedicate the time to do this (especailly when I use XBMC for streaming media) but if anyone might actually use it, perhaps it would be worth my effort.

    Is this a feature anyone, besides myself, would like to see?

    T$

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    1,778
    Quote Originally Posted by thund3rstruck
    To my surprise, the streaming media in this tivo v4 OS doesn't communicate via the linux smbclient. In addition, the so called "server" component requires the user who installed the "server" software to be logged into the server in order for the client (the tivo) to communicate with it.

    In my opinion, this is amateurish
    So... what happens when Microsoft breaks Samba compatibility in XP SP3, Longhorn, or some other release?

    By relying on unsupported, undocumented functionality, they would place themselves at the mercy of the ever-changing, ever-buggy Windows codebase. If they did this and I was the customer service manager, I'd quit in protest.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    31
    Microsoft will never break smb connectivity (it's their protocol after all), and its just not cost effective. Every enterpise I have ever worked for has relied on UNIX for specific vital services such as hosting Oracle, Tivoli, LDAP, etc, etc, etc..

    M$ fully understands the necessity to adapt to corporate requirements, and in the vast majority of the world that includes inter platform connectivity. Even with the unprecesented default security settings included with Win2003 Ent Server Ed (when configured as a domain controller), the customer still has the option of modifying local policy to allow Non digitally signed communications (for interperations with UNIX, MAC, and Pre-Win2K nodes).

    In any event, there is a seperate install for MAC and windows on the Tivo site so for their part they should code the windows peice correctly and run it as a service. As for SMB, the server messaging block protocol, SMB is the published standard for communicating with microsoft clients/servers and it has been so uninversally adopted that I don't see them discontinuing it until they have conquered the world (at least on the server side).

    As for the "undocumented code base" statement, smb is hardly undocumented. Samba was created directly from the documentation and it exists solely for the purpose of linux interconnectivity with windows.

    Back to the initial post, the issue still remains that in order to stream music or photos via the Tivo requires the user who installed the server software to be logged on and requires the user bounce the service. On any platform this is rediculous and inefficient.

    Thats just my opinion, from a developer's perspective... then again, this is a product aimed at a home market that generally has 1 pc with a single default admin account that automatically logs in, so what do I know?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,149
    Quote Originally Posted by thund3rstruck
    Thats just my opinion, from a developer's perspective... then again, this is a product aimed at a home market that generally has 1 pc with a single default admin account that automatically logs in, so what do I know?
    Although, your latest post indicates some experience in other areas, you seem to think that makes experience in this area. Your experienced approach should be tempered a little, IMHO..., based on these posts:

    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...6&postcount=13

    and

    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...1&postcount=11


    Smarts in one area don't necessarrily translate...

    Keep in mind that, I haven't been lucky enough to be paid for ANY computer knowledge that I may, or may not, have.


    NutKase
    "God, and DealDataBase, help those that help themselves." --Shamelessly stolen from psxboy
    ------------------------------------------------
    2 each, SA S2 287hr 7.2.1a's with Lifetime.
    Hacks: 1 Manually Monte'd -140, Bash,Telnet,FTP,TivoWebPlus,
    Superpatch-67all Unscrambled/HMO,MFS_FTP Ver. N,TyTools, tivoserver
    Fully hacked SA S1

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    1,778
    Quote Originally Posted by thund3rstruck
    Microsoft will never break smb connectivity (it's their protocol after all), and its just not cost effective.
    Samba has been broken numerous times by changes in Windows. Especially for domain level security. Microsoft has NO vested interest in maintaining compatibility with non-Microsoft peers; in fact the opposite is true.

    Even with the unprecesented default security settings included with Win2003 Ent Server Ed (when configured as a domain controller), the customer still has the option of modifying local policy to allow Non digitally signed communications (for interperations with UNIX, MAC, and Pre-Win2K nodes).
    Until TiVo starts hiring MCSEs for their call center, I'd have to assume this is not the sort of thing they want to talk their customers through.

    As for the "undocumented code base" statement, smb is hardly undocumented. Samba was created directly from the documentation and it exists solely for the purpose of linux interconnectivity with windows.
    No, Samba was created from documentation, protocol observation, and reverse engineering. The spec was woefully incomplete. Samba remains a hacker project, subject to break at Microsoft's whim.

    Back to the initial post, the issue still remains that in order to stream music or photos via the Tivo requires the user who installed the server software to be logged on and requires the user bounce the service. On any platform this is rediculous and inefficient.
    You seem to set very high standards for a crappy Win32 program intended for end-users.

    There's a lot of complete garbage in both the Win32 and *NIX world, but at least most of the *NIX garbage comes with source...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    31
    Samba has been broken numerous times by changes in Windows. Especially for domain level security. Microsoft has NO vested interest in maintaining compatibility with non-Microsoft peers; in fact the opposite is true
    You'll have to provide samples here. I cannot think of a single time where I was unable to authenticate via an NT domain nor an Active Directory domain from a Solaris machine utilizing SMB.


    Until TiVo starts hiring MCSEs for their call center, I'd have to assume this is not the sort of thing they want to talk their customers through.
    I don't think that Tivo has many customers running win2003 servers at home, as domain controllers (except maybe me).

    No, Samba was created from documentation, protocol observation, and reverse engineering. The spec was woefully incomplete. Samba remains a hacker project, subject to break at Microsoft's whim.
    I have to disagree here as well.
    http://samba.anu.edu.au/cifs/docs/what-is-smb.html

    The SMB protocol grew from the need for inter-communications.

    You seem to set very high standards for a crappy Win32 program intended for end-users.

    There's a lot of complete garbage in both the Win32 and *NIX world, but at least most of the *NIX garbage comes with source...
    You're absolutly right. In my industry I can't believe some of the things I get away with, The only reason I do is because the source is closed and inaccessible to peer review. To be honest, I guard my src with my life since I've had fellow developers steal functions and sub-routines directly from my workstation and then use that src for their own personal/professional gain.

    That's more an observation on society that anything else. It's too bad that we no longer live in an age like the one Richard Stallman came up in, but we don't. Software, generally is about producing revenue.. profits.. and no longer about knowledge transfer. This is why I feel so much respect for the guys who developed XBMC, and for that matter the guys who originally posted the emulation techniques for the DTV F and HU cards (which I know is not a topic discussed here) because they selflessly put themselves at risk to benefit hundreds of people, even if a slim minority or those people went on to become scummy entrepenuers capitolizing on the intillegence of the original authors work (at his expense).

    The fact still remains as stated before several times that a server application needs to behave as such. This includes initializing during the boot process and running under the SYSTEM namespace.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    31
    NutKase,


    Alt
    hough, your latest post indicates some experience in other areas, you seem to think that makes experience in this area. Your experienced approach should be tempered a little, IMHO..., based on these posts:
    You're absolutly right, I'm used to being an expert in my field and it's tough for me to be a novice here. Touche. You guys know what's up and I appreciate the time you've taken to respond to my inquiries. If there's one thing I've learned from my years in the industry, it's how elitest the linux admins have been each time I've approached them for some knowledge on getting our systems to play nice together.

    I'm not in any way claiming to be an expert in this area, so please correct me when I make a vile error in judgement or assumption. I'm a novice here, a student, so feel free to drop the hammer when your experience dictates such.

    --T$

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    1,778
    Quote Originally Posted by thund3rstruck
    You'll have to provide samples here. I cannot think of a single time where I was unable to authenticate via an NT domain nor an Active Directory domain from a Solaris machine utilizing SMB.
    The sample is my own experience, which unfortunately isn't very well documented.

    I can tell you that old installations of Samba that ran fine as a domain server for NT4 clients did not work with XP clients.

    I don't think that Tivo has many customers running win2003 servers at home, as domain controllers (except maybe me).
    Doesn't matter; my point is that the requirements of SMB peers change over time. This is not a stable foundation on which to build your application.

    I have to disagree here as well.
    http://samba.anu.edu.au/cifs/docs/what-is-smb.html

    The SMB protocol grew from the need for inter-communications.
    That doesn't refute my point.

    for that matter the guys who originally posted the emulation techniques for the DTV F and HU cards (which I know is not a topic discussed here) because they selflessly put themselves at risk to benefit hundreds of people
    Not sure about the F, but the HU stuff was leaked for revenge, and the results were quite unfortunate. If the leakers were Canadian, they had little to fear (from the law, anyway).

    The fact still remains as stated before several times that a server application needs to behave as such. This includes initializing during the boot process and running under the SYSTEM namespace.
    One of the first things you'll notice is that all PVR software is half-assed. TiVo is just less half-assed than the rest.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    31
    In any event, this post has strayed far off it's initial scope.

    Windows2K+ users; (who aren't using win2003 enterprise server as a domain controller, or have already configured said server to allow incoming connections from non-windows foreign hosts) would any of you like to have the Tivo Music and Photos home media option server software that you downloaded from TiVo work without you having to log into your computer with the userid that initially installed the software? In other words would any of you like to see an NT_SERVICE that starts the software when the machine loads via the Service Controller on boot as oppossed to on logon?

    This question only applies to PC users who use operating systems that can fully exploit the functionality of the v1.1+ .NET framework (Win2K,WinXP,Win2003)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •