Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: (presales) function check of s3 HD Tivo...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    70

    (presales) function check of s3 HD Tivo...

    I have one computer in my house - it is a FreeBSD fileserver running Samba.

    That's it.

    It has all of my wav files, jpeg/tiff/gif pictures, and a ton of mpeg/.ts/divx video files. Keep this in mind as I ask questions below - there are no windows systems to run little apps on, or to run tivo clients on, etc.

    Can the s3 HD tivo connect to my samba share and play these music/picture/video files ?

    Do I need to run any kind of server on my fbsd system, or is samba enough (it should be) ?

    Do I need to hack up the s3 HD tivo in order to get this to work ?

    -----

    Is there any way to extract the recorded content from my s3 HD tivo and save it elsewhere as unprotected/non-DRM files that I can watch on my (insert device X here) ?

    If not, are we close ? Does this mean we are getting closer:

    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=52620

    -----

    Finally, will the s3/hd tivo record hi-def in full quality ? I know that will take a ton of disk, but I don't mind ... is it possible to turn compression all the way down ? (like a uncompressed transport stream ?)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    420
    No, ftp/no, yes.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    70
    I don't like to assume, so please allow me to clarify. You are saying:

    Yes, an HD tivo can connect to my samba share and play my music, look at my pictures and watch my 3rd party mpeg/ts/divx/avi videos.

    And you are saying I can extract non-protected, non-DRM tivo recorded files with ftp, but ... what is the "no" for ?

    And finally, I can record in full HD with zero compression. That's good to know.

    ----

    One followup - any ability or aftermarket hack to play a dvd iso from the samba share ?

    Thanks for your help.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    4,075
    Quote Originally Posted by tiver View Post
    Can the s3 HD tivo connect to my samba share and play these music/picture/video files ?
    Yes, for music + pictures, with appropriate server side software; No, at present, for video files.

    Photo viewing is currently standard def only.
    Do I need to run any kind of server on my fbsd system, or is samba enough (it should be) ?
    Yes, you need additional server side software.

    One choice of server-side software is Galleon, a java app. There are problaby others, and the HMO/HME wire protocol is documented, so you can grow your own if you wish.
    Do I need to hack up the s3 HD tivo in order to get this to work ?
    Not for what is described above. If you really want nothing more than samba server software on the server side, then expect a lot of hacking on the tivo side to accomplish your goals. A hacked tivo can, in theory, mount a samba share, but the tivo UI isn't really set up to let you browse for music/pictures/video that way.
    Is there any way to extract the recorded content from my s3 HD tivo and save it elsewhere as unprotected/non-DRM files that I can watch on my (insert device X here) ?
    The Series3 is a fairly new platform and not much has been explored yet. These capabilities are possible on Series2 tivos, and probably will be eventually on the Series3 too, barring unforseen DRM roadblocks.
    If not, are we close ? Does this mean we are getting closer:

    http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=52620
    Yes, that's step one. I expect that the DRM hurdles will be higher than in the past, given that TiVo now has to deal with Cablelabs approval for things like MRV and TiVo2Go.
    Finally, will the s3/hd tivo record hi-def in full quality ? I know that will take a ton of disk, but I don't mind ... is it possible to turn compression all the way down ? (like a uncompressed transport stream ?)
    Digital streams, both SD and HD, are stored exactly as broadcast. There is no transcoding or additional compression going on. It's the full quality your signal provider is broadcasting.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Narnia
    Posts
    1,263
    Last question first:

    Quote Originally Posted by tiver View Post
    Do I need to hack up the s3 HD tivo in order to get this to work ?
    Yes, to do pretty much anything interesting with the S3 you're going to have to change the programming on the PROM chip, to bypass Tivo's kernel signature checks. You already linked the other thread, so you've seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiver View Post
    Is there any way to extract the recorded content from my s3 HD tivo and save it elsewhere as unprotected/non-DRM files that I can watch on my (insert device X here) ?
    So far, not too much you can do with the DRM'ed files. I've gotten MFS_FTP running on the S3 but I haven't had much success with the downloaded files.

    Keep in mind, Tivo, Inc may release Tivo-to-Go for the S3, which would likely be better (or at least more 'supported').

    As for music and photo content, Tivo's own TivoDesktop (Windoze) software will work with those even on the S3. I imagine if you can get Galleon or some other Tivo HME-based (Java) software running on your BSD it should also work. Hopefully this will improve with time, especially if Tivo ever releases Multi-room viewing (MRV)/Tivo-to-Go (TTG) for the S3.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiver View Post
    Finally, will the s3/hd tivo record hi-def in full quality ?
    Hi-Def content is dumped direct to the drive as it comes in, similar to how the DirecTivo satellite units work. Aside from some DRM scrambling, you get whatever the source broadcasts. There are no compression/quality setting for 'digital' broadcast.

    Analog recordings can still be set to Basic, Medium, High, and Best Quality like the S1 and S2 Tivo units.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Yes, for music + pictures, with appropriate server side software; No, at present, for video files.

    Photo viewing is currently standard def only.Yes, you need additional server side software.

    One choice of server-side software is Galleon, a java app.
    Ok. So I can do music and pictures with Galleon, or something like it, and then later, once MRV is up and running, I can load TivoServer on my fileserver and get the videos too.

    Sound like a fair assessment ?

    Also, I take it photo viewing in HD is just something they need to get out in a (near) future software update ? (that is, there are no technical limitations or cablecard-style cartels to deal with) ?

    I think my current plan of action is to go ahead with the s3 HD tivo, get pics/music with galleon, and wait patiently for:

    a) MRV to get enabled so I can load tivoserver and start viewing my non-tivo content

    b) offload+DRM to be broken so I can archive data "offsite", so to speak

    Sound like a reasonable plan ? And while we're at it, what about my non-tivo DVD content in the form of iso files ? Is there anyone, on any series of tivo, watching those files (with tivoserver, or something like it) ?

    Many thanks.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Narf54321 View Post
    So far, not too much you can do with the DRM'ed files. I've gotten MFS_FTP running on the S3 but I haven't had much success with the downloaded files.
    I'm new, so I'm sorry if this is a faq, but is there any indication/evidence as to what kind of DRM this is ? Any URLs you can point me to ?

    I am thinking of investing time, money, and over the next year or so, a lot of saved programming into the gamble that in the future I can offload this content onto an open device (read: unix fileserver) and I'd like to have some idea as to how good of a bet this is ...

    Or perhaps decrypting the DRM is not the vector everyone has in mind for the eventual offload of content ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Narf54321 View Post
    As for music and photo content, Tivo's own TivoDesktop (Windoze) software will work with those even on the S3. I imagine if you can get Galleon or some other Tivo HME-based (Java) software running on your BSD it should also work. Hopefully this will improve with time, especially if Tivo ever releases Multi-room viewing (MRV)/Tivo-to-Go (TTG) for the S3.
    Well, I think I will go with galleon for now, and then TivoServer once MRV is up and running. The one last item is playing .iso files ... any comments on that ? Hmm...something tells me that is not easy.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    4,075
    Sounds like you have a pretty good idea now of the lay of the land.

    As for streaming ripped DVD's off a file server, I believe tivoserver can serve up VOB's now on Series2's, modulo some reported problems on the latest 8.1 software release. Seems likely this capability will eventually be available on the S3. TiVo.net and pyTiVo are other potential paths to this goal.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    70
    Narf54321:

    Two final questions:

    1. When you pull the shows off the s3 tivo with FTP, can you remove/delete them from the tivo , and then successfully _put them back_ on the tivo to watch later ?

    1a. If the protection/DRM _is_ cracked, I assume off-tivo decryption will be possible (so I don't have to put them all _back_ on the tivo to decode)

    2. Is that MFS_FTP something that requires your PROM hack to do ?


    The idea behind these questions is, I can just go buy an s3 today, and not worry about whether the protection has been cracked or not, and just periodically offload all the shows to my fileserver ... then X months from now I can just batch decode them all .... even if I don't have a tivo anymore. BUT, if the protection is _never_ cracked, at the very least I can always just transfer one or more shows back to the tivo.

    Sound reasonable, or is there a flaw somewhere in this reasoning ?
    Last edited by tiver; 02-02-2007 at 01:28 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    4,075
    Not addressed to me, but since I know, I'll answer anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiver View Post
    Two final questions:

    1. When you pull the shows off the s3 tivo with FTP, can you remove/delete them from the tivo , and then successfully _put them back_ on the tivo to watch later ?
    Yes. I've done it and it works.
    1a. If the protection/DRM _is_ cracked, I assume off-tivo decryption will be possible (so I don't have to put them all _back_ on the tivo to decode)
    Unlikely. All previously released unscrambling tools had to be run on the tivo where the recordings were originally made. They need keys stored in the tivo crypto chip, and no one has released a PC side tool that can do the unscrambling. It's all done on the tivo hardware.
    2. Is that MFS_FTP something that requires your PROM hack to do ?
    Yes. You have to break the chain of trust to install ANY modifications on the tivo.


    The idea behind these questions is, I can just go buy an s3 today, and not worry about whether the protection has been cracked or not, and just periodically offload all the shows to my fileserver ... then X months from now I can just batch decode them all .... even if I don't have a tivo anymore. BUT, if the protection is _never_ cracked, at the very least I can always just transfer one or more shows back to the tivo.

    Sound reasonable, or is there a flaw somewhere in this reasoning ?
    You probably will only be able to decrypt the encrypted shows on the original tivo where they were recorded. That's the way it is now for the Series2's, and I doubt it will change for the Series3s.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    70
    Jamie,

    Thanks a lot - very helpful information. If you don't mind, would you look over this "schematic" of my plan and just yes/no confirm that it's solid:

    1. Buy s3/HD tivo today, and hack up to get ftp function
    2. start filling it with shows
    3. periodically dump all shows to fileserver
    4. fill up tivo again, repeat steps 2-4

    Then, assuming worst case scenario, no protection/DRM break is ever successful:

    5. in 2010, buy a 4 TB external eSATA raid enclosure, copy all of the old tivo shows to it, and plug it into the tivo. Have to keep tivo forever, and it is data storage island in my home network. The End.

    Assuming second to worst case scenario, protection is broken, but needs to be decoded _on_ the tivo:

    5. Cycle all archived material onto the tivo for decryption, then cycle it back off back to the fileserver for permanent, unprotected storage. Throw away tivo after all content is cycled through it to decrypt.

    Assuming best case scenario, off-tivo encryption is achieved:

    5. throw away tivo, batch-decode years worth of tivo on my unix fileserver.

    -----

    All sound, reasonable assumptions ?

    Many thanks!
    Last edited by tiver; 02-02-2007 at 02:27 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    4,075
    Quote Originally Posted by tiver View Post
    Jamie,

    Thanks a lot - very helpful information. If you don't mind, would you look over this "schematic" of my plan and just yes/no confirm that it's solid:

    ...

    All sound, reasonable assumptions ?
    Yeah, sounds reasonable. A few caveats: there is no guarantee eSata will ever be enabled, and the MFS file system has an inherent 2TB size limitation that may never be lifted.
    Last edited by Jamie; 02-02-2007 at 08:48 PM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    70
    ok cool.

    And I assume you mean 2 TB ... I suspect they wil fix that ASAP - 2 TB is really nothing anymore ...

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    4,075
    Quote Originally Posted by tiver View Post
    ok cool.

    And I assume you mean 2 TB ... I suspect they wil fix that ASAP - 2 TB is really nothing anymore ...
    Oops. 2TiB, right.

    I expected them to fix it with the Series3 releases, but they didn't. The problem is that they use 32 bit sector addresses. They have 512 byte sectors, yielding a limit of 2^32*2^9 = 2^41 = 2TiB. The 32 bit sector addresses are all though the file system, so changing it is going to mean a significant change to the file system. I suspect boxes already out in the field will never get updated, as it would mean restructuring the file system, perhaps difficult to do in place while retaining recordings.

    Keep in mind that the largest capacity box they ship is 250GB, so they may be in no great hurry to increase the limit anyway.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •