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Thread: Proof of Concept; Viable Society

  1. #16
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    CWCW is offline Thats Mr Cheez\/\/iz to u
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    Originally posted by BubbleLamp


    Since this will only work during a reboot, would it be wise to make a slow loop to do this, say once a day?

    That would just be another thing to slow down the system, but how about starting it as a 1 run loop with a time delay and have it execute after each "Successful" call-in.....
    ---------------
    Cheez\/\/iz

  2. #17
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    CWCW

    Yeah I thought of that too, but since my units are making daily phone calls what would be the difference between that and a once a day loop? Daily deletion of the logs should not be a problem slowing things down, but I'm not sure if the rm command would work if the log files are in use. Or crash something? And how do you execute a command like rm from a tcl script?

  3. #18
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    you should be able to do an exec /var/hack/clearLogs.tcl inside the TClient-lib.itcl

    inside your clearLogs.itcl, i think it should look like:

    #!/bin/bash
    rm -rf /var/log
    mkdir /var/log

  4. #19
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    Ahem!

    How do I get myself into these things?

    Some facts for the record...

    1) I have nothing to do with the CCC Tivo hack. CCC sent me one of his units to look over, as a favor to me. All I did was post some comments about it in the NG. My feelings are that it is a very well done hack, quite overpriced, and it contains both original ideas and ideas that I have also seen here (and elsewhere).

    2) I am a big fan of Tivo, and think that everyone who is using their service should sub. Then hack your unit all you want. One thing that I absolutely do not like about Extreme is that is will hasten the arrival of the "Free TVers". They can ruin a fun hobby, let me tell you. Go ask the DTV crowd.

    3) I am learing quite a bit about the Tivo, and am busting at the seams to share what I know. - BUT - I am currently involved in a business deal with someone who has an intrest that is in conflict with Extreme and its public release. It is *not* CCC. At their request I cannot share some of the things that were shown to me by them yet. Soon I will. Try not to talk bad about me in the meantime :-)

    And chipster, thanks for all your help. I'm looking forward to picking up where we left off as soon as I can.

  5. #20
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    hmmm... whatever you say InTek, sounds interesting, in the meantime.. I use you Loader/Unlooper.. nice design, thanks
    -= Glitched =-

  6. #21
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    Intek.. I apologize if I made incorrect statements...

    Since I started this thread it's only proper that I apologize if I besmerched your good name.. I never meant to take a run at your reputation.. You have given more to the DTV community then I ever will...

    I fully agree with trying to avoid the "FREE-TV" movement.... However I see major conflict between the 3M movement and the the free-tv Movement... (or at least what they have become)

    People are never going to learn anything unless they actaully have to do something... The alternative is to have them pay for what they want.. Now what CCC is charging is outrageous and it appears that he has even licensed it... But he hasn't seemed to give any credit to those who started the movement...

    I believe that what 3M meant was discuss and produce howto's, investigate ideas and problems and maybe even provide doumentation, white papers and the software to do the work BUT providing these fully automated installs is going beyond the sharing of ideas.. It does propagate the FREE-TVers and (i hate to say it) the AOL attitude of make it easy... If it's easy it can't be that fun.....

    A great example is the Kaylna release.. Download an executable which formats the disk and creates the software... It takes all of the skill out of doing anything...

    With these folks as soon as there is a problem they pound on the forums and newgroups expecting the next free release... If a new version of SLE or PITOU is released it's not good enough becuase they don't know how to install it...

    But I think I'm starting to rant... Intek our mutual friend JW says Hello... And I'll stop here...

  7. #22
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    Alright so where does all this leave us?

    I don't want anybody to think any of this is directed at them personally, especially since I will be using myself as an example as well.

    Surgeon, myself, and Glitched; having released various Xtreme images are contributing to "Free-TV'ers". Well, that may be, but isn't all of this? Does it take any more skill to load fixsub than it does Xtreme? Don't get me wrong, I hate FT'ers too, anybody who knows me, knows I haunt the DTV world as well, long before I came here.

    Intek and CCC have chosen to persue the comercial avenues of an "Xtreme-like" product. Does this make it any better than giving it away? Except in the case of CCC where they stole certain aspects and market them as thier own, I see no difference. Whatever you are planning Intek waits to be seen. So I won't comment on it, just that you indicate it will be commercial.

    People are flooding into this forum to find out how to hack thier DTivos for various reasons. While many are looking to get something for nothing, I'm sure many are like me and just want to dabble inside the unit. There is always a certain element of undesireable intent, but with that comes the new minds and talents that will help us to fully realize the potential of this unit.

    I'm starting to babble myself, I guess I'm just feeling like the thing I took the time, and found the pride in doing, is being seen as a harbinger of doom to real "hackers" as it were. Thereby causeing others to go commercial and not share ideas. That, I do not believe. I think that the real enthusiasts outweigh the FT'ers by a large margin. I also think that whatever happens, those of us who get together and share our ideas, talents, and experiences will surpass anybody who does this with the intent of only doing enough to get paid, or to get free TV.

    I need to shut up now, otherwise somebody will send me a pulpit.

    Dennis

  8. #23
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    On one hand I understand the arguments of dsboyce regarding a "labor of love" as it were, but on the other I can see how mods such as XTREME can lead to the same problems DTV is suffering.

    When utilizing fixsub required effort (albeit not much, but enough to keep it from the "AOL crowd" as boyce put it), this board was pretty calm. Since extreme, we are flooded with messages asking the types of questions that would be figured out before ever getting fixsub to work- and they all seem to begin with "i'm running xtreme and...". Where previously people would just give up, now there are two steps (burn and touch) to getting lifetime and 2.5.

    So now there are tons of people able to follow the steps with virtually no effort. Board traffic clearly demonstrates many more people are interested since xtreme. Common sense also says they pass the word to their friends. Moreover, there are people now ADVERTISING and SELLING systems modified with the sole purpose of ripping off Tivo (based on work from members of this forum). How many people think the zeroinit and speedboot would be spreading very far if people had to do it like many of us did ~2 months ago? Once more than one or two groups are selling, prices will plummet and become reasonable.

    Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I don't want to see this hobby be parasitized by the commercial dealers and gimme morons like DTV was. Mostly because I enjoy it, and partly because, if history is any guide, it will result in legal pursuit and retribution by DTV and Tivo.

    There is no doubt they are watching this forum, and no doubt that once the lost/cost ratio progresses far enough they will take some type of action. Mimimizing the number of people involved by not releasing AOL-friendly progs can only delay that.

    off my soapbox, too.
    Last edited by synthesis; 01-11-2002 at 11:38 AM.

  9. #24
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    Dennis you are reading things into what I said that aren't there...

    You did a wonderful job.. I like the idea behind extreme...

    But I (read that as ME alone) would prefer to see a step by step with the tools (call it a compilation disk) and make the user both do some stuff, think a little bit and see what everything does and how it does it....Have all the answers at hand but don't give them all away without making them sweat a little... Otherwise when things go wrong you as the author end up with folks asking questions... And expecting you to hold their hands rather then trying to figure stuff out...

    I don't have a problem with having an automated process but it should basically start off with a disclaimer that they are not ask questions unless they have done some leg work on their own...

    Me, I did downloaded extreme... I used Nero to burn it and of course it puked after doing the restore... The options were pollute the newsgroup with a question or move ahead... I searched I found out why it died... Since the image was ok could go on...

    I found the install script printed it off and walked though the rest manaully... Then Mad got upset with me... turns out I had a bad copy of that too... I took the tools disk and it worked fine... So now I have a 126 hour dual tuner unit and I get to play with the bash prompt..

    Now what I would love to see it a roadmap of the partitions and programas/scripts in a production unit and what they do... Call it a white paper... I do some more tinkering... I have to figure out how to transfer files across from my laptop... Since I have to update my sysinit and phone in scripts... I wanted to learn LINUX anyways... Now I have a great excuse....

    Dennis, I'm only one person and I certainly don't speak for everyone or anyone except myself for that matter... Morally I had to apologize to Damien since I had made implications against him that were incorrect... is he following the 3M ethics no but he has his reasons.. Maybe he will help us down the road maybe he won't...

    I'm a hacker from the old school I like to take things apart and see how they work... I also like to break things once in a while... The term hacking has been made so PC these days it makes me sick... Script kiddies and butchers are now classified as hackers so is the guy who takes a pre-packaged script and applies it (in reality these are users)... Someday in a perfect world everybody will be happy.. But until then relax and have a cold one... Hey if you are anywhere around the great lakes... I'll meet up with you and buy you one...

  10. #25
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    Social Discussion.. What will the world come to next..

    As unappealing as it may be for many of the contributors to this and other forums, the AOL crowd does something vitally important for us, it provides recognition that gives us drive to continue, and it accelerates the frequency of inspiration.

    I'm a latecomer to the TiVo scene, and if it hadn't been introduced on another board I frequent, I would likely not have ever noticed it. I'm also a latecomer to the DirecTV scene, I purchased and installed my first receiver in July of 2001.

    In many of the forums where the 'people in the know' hang out, the propagation of knowledge is slow and stagnant, old ideas are never challanged, and new ideas are not given a chance to succeed. This is generally a result of the leaders becoming overconfident in their knowledge, and the newcomers afraid of being grilled for their ineptness. Look through the posts of Sept 2001 in this forum, and see where I started. I posed uncomfortable questions, and stuck my nose in where some thought it didn't belong. Now when I drop my point of view in, only others who have siezed the ring tend to argue, and many times, even that is in private.

    One of the problems that seems to fray the nerves of some of the contributers here, is that they do not get the recognition they deserve. They create innovative works, circumvent protections that cost millions to create, and reengineer technology, all without the benefit of the instructions. What do they get from it? The respect of the people who were there when it happened. To the people that come after, it is seen as no great accomplishment, it's just something that someone did. There is little recognition in compiled or derivative projects, and there is frequently no desire to share how you came to create what you think of as yours. This understanding allows me, and hopefully many of my compatriots here to look at what others are creating, see the praise that they get and think to ourselves, hey.. some of that praise is mine... and we feel good about it.

    Unfortunately, the final piece required for a self sustaining society is still missing from this group. When true collaboration becomes a way of life, this group will have the ability to tackle any obstacle. Our acceptance of newcomers allows growth and perpetuates our ability to feel good about what we create. Our tolerance of visible shortcomings and intrusions gives us a scope which allows us to accept what we don't know. The availablility of new sources of inspiration prevents the stagnation of our goals. The ability to civilly discuss the things that bother us prevents the cracking and crumbling that plague other groups. And finally, a mutual desire to be part of something bigger gives us definition as a society.

    Lets change the world...

  11. #26
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    Damn, there's an echo in here.

    I am inches from a new release of Xtreme, how does the world at large feel about that? It makes many more of the usually stand alone install options easy to use. PPP, TivoWeb, FixDemo to name a few. There are also one or two hidden goodies, which due to thier nature cannot be released alone, yet. So what do I do? Keep going? Or, stop now? You decide.

    Dennis

  12. #27
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    Full speed ahead... Danm the torpedos....

    Go for it..

    In fact I'll even contribute my FTP server

  13. #28
    CWCW's Avatar
    CWCW is offline Thats Mr Cheez\/\/iz to u
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    Personally I don't see a damn thing wrong with Extreme like packages.....

    Just take out the fixsub stuff and Tivo will be satisfied....

    What you all must understand is companies like TiVo and DirecTV and Dish understand that there will be a hacking community of such products and they seem to accept it to a certain degree. But as soon as you have dealers like CCC and even one in the US advertising these no sub units and making big bucks off of it, that is when the companies seek revenge.

    It is the DEALERS selling this stuff that promote the Lamers, not packages like xtreme.............

    That is why I see it as a duty of hackers and tinkerers to take down entities such as CCC and even InteK if he has turned to the dark side. (Don't get your panties in a wad, I said if)

    Greed is the path to the dark side of any "hobby"..... Doing things like xtreme will make it less profitable for the dealers, and it is the dealers that will surely ruin this hobby for everyone.......

    Xtreme still requires a certain degree of skill, be it minimum, but enough.....

    If you want to know what ruined ADH, take a look.... DEALERS!

    The "hacking" community is supposed to be about promoting the free flow of information. As soon as people start "hiding" it, then that is when the red flag should pop up. Look at the rediculous laws written into the DMCA here in the states.... but I am getting off on a tangent.........
    ---------------
    Cheez\/\/iz

  14. #29
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    Well said there Bubba! I know I feel pride knowing the amount of people that are using some of the information or packages I have released as my learning curve has progressed. But people like CCC make me want to puke. His type has consistantly ran off smart people in the DTV scene, and I'm afraid as more commercialization comes, it will happen here as well.

    I would love for this community to grow and learn together, but as long as we have one step solutions, that will never happen. We need to share more source, and not end products. People can learn from pieces, and possibly even contribute. With all the howto's, walkthru's, and images we have floating around here a trained monkey could have a unit hacked inside an hour. That can only hurt us in the long run and limit our growth as a group.

    So as to the next Extreme, my vote would be no.

  15. #30
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    I'd like to propose another forum for the newbie-type Q&A. The stickies in this group help, but I still see lots of repeated questions. (I'm probably guilty of it too)

    Having a separate forum might lower the noise factor here without alienating anyone.

    Just a thought.

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