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Thread: This Board's "Perceived Reputation"?

  1. #1
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    This Board's "Perceived Reputation"?

    I love the extraction/networking posts here. There are just not enough of them.

    Wouldn't it be cool if stuff like this was the main topic of conversation around here?

    I'm tired of seeing posts in other places like:

    "...many other forums exist which are not "censored" as you put it. Deal database's (seemingly geared wholly towards theft of service)..."

    ...I'm also sick of seeing posts like this in reference to xtreme:

    "2.5xtreme is to used to steal Tivo service", as if that's it's main reason for creation."

    …and after the fella loads it, learns how it works, (effectively learning from xtreme) and doing the mod on his own backup as was done automatically w/xtreme, then he posts:

    "Nice to be back on the side of law-abiding citizens!"

    Here's a new one from that same thread:

    "Why are the mods not deleting this thread ? There should not be ANY discussion of xtreme 2.5 on these boards, there is no "legitimate" use of xtreme 2.5 period."

    jeeze...

    I'm tired of arguing with them. I use xtreme on a sub box. Always have. How much do you want to bet the poster above has never even looked at it?

    I'm afraid that the perceived reputation of this forum is keeping those with a higher knowledge of the tivo system, and a lower tolerance of theft, from posting here.

    If this board is gonna support freetv-ers, maybe we need another forum?

    Instead of "TiVo Hacks" and "DirecTV TiVo Hacking", maybe someone should add "Tivo for Freetv-ers"?

    then again, i could just be full of poop....

    whadoyathink?


  2. #2
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    Way to go Fugg

    I'm guilty of being a newbie, and I used the 25xtreme on a subbed box. And I have been studying it, in hopes that someday I might be able to provide to this forum. And I agree with you 100%

    cseeley

  3. #3
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    Let's look at the front page, shall we?

    "Need channels.dat for your specific region?" - A thread, the most popular thread, which basically is about modifying the channel listings to get data for channels which you're not supposed to be receiving anyway, ie. you're using a hacked card.

    "DirecTivo w/ H card" - A thread about using an H card with a D-Tivo, the only possible purpose of which is to hack the H card and thus steal DTV service. If you want to buy DTV service, why not use an HU card? Answer: HU cards are harder to hack.

    Several 2.5xtreme threads - 2.5xtreme, a very nifty and cool hack which, unfortunately, breaks copyright law as well as including software to make it trivially easy to steal service (fixup). Also includes code in the rc.sysinit to let you steal service by simply touching a file. If it wasn't for stealing service, fixup wouldn't be included in it.

    Oh yeah, the fixup code, developed on this forum by members of this forum for the specific purpose of faking out the D-Tivo's service status. Let's not forget that.

    "D-tivo Video Extraction" - Specifically illegal under current laws, as DTV is the copyright owner of this data.

    There have been threads here about running emulators with the D-Tivo or on the D-Tivo itself. Emulator = no legal purpose for this bit of code either, and don't give me any of that Canada BS. It may be legal in canada, but that doesn't change that it's still "getting service without paying for it".

    Look, man, the facts speak for themselves. I'm not saying any of this is "wrong" per se, but I'm nobody's fool either. You can't honestly expect me to believe that the fixup code, for example, isn't used by people for the specific purpose of getting service and not paying for it.

    I'm not saying that whoever wrote this code was wrong to write it, far from it. I believe fully in freedom of speech and freedom of coding, but you also have responsibility for your actions in this world. If you release something that can be used to steal service, and people use it to steal service, then your intentions for releasing it be damned, you've still made it possible for a hell of a lot of people to steal service. Rationalize it all you want, but the facts are the facts. Any number of people could have released code to do these things, and they've held off from doing so because they know exactly what it would be used for. Don't tell me that the author(s) of the fixup code had no idea it would be used for theft of service.

    The next argument I'm expecting here is "but it has a legitimate purpose too", which may be true, but that's not the primary purpose nor the primary use. Fact: Members of this forum have made software that makes it possible to steal service, released that code here, and now you get morons on e-bay selling "no-service" D-Tivo's to anyone who wants them. Most of these e-bay guys couldn't have done that without this software, they're not that bright.

    If you want this forum's image to be different, then a different attitude must be adopted towards software that is used to steal service, and that's all there is to it. The facts at hand currently speak for themselves. The "image" exists for a reason.

    FWIW, I said this over on the tivocommunity forums: "...many other forums exist which are not "censored" as you put it. Deal database's (seemingly geared wholly towards theft of service)...", and I've been reading this forum (usually as a guest) since it was first created. Yes, you guys do some nifty hacks here, I won't argue against that. That doesn't change the fact that the stated policies here are mostly unenforced with regards to things like theft of service.

    Addition: Note that I'm not against breaking the law. I stole DTV service in college. I freely admit that. I even hooked up a friend's dad to do so as well. At the time I did it, the best way to do it was to roll your own code for the card because all the released card hacks were specifically targetted by DTV's anti-hacking procedures.. so rolling your own tended to last longer. I modified the hell out of that code, and didn't pay DTV one thin dime. I out and out stole the service then, and had/have no problem with doing so. But never would I claim that what I did wasn't theft and I don't try to justify it by saying that for some people it had a legitimate use like a lot of people try to use the whole Canada legality thing for. And had I released my modifications (a no-no at the time because releasing your code basically meant DTV targetted it a week later), I wouldn't have said "here's something that's legal in Canada, but don't use it in the states", I'd have said "want to steal service? Here's how to do it."
    Last edited by Otto; 01-23-2002 at 11:59 PM.

  4. #4
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    Why do you browse as a guest?

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by Otto
    "D-tivo Video Extraction" - Specifically illegal under current laws, as DTV is the copyright owner of this data.
    Back that up, Otto. What law? Fair use still exists, despite Hollywood's desire to wish it away. And I sincerely doubt that even the most psychotic interpretation of the DMCA will call the DTivo an access control device.

    And if we want to be pedantic, do remember that DTV is NOT the copyright owner. They may be a licensor, but they aren't the owner.

    Oh, and your "above-ground" brethren are discussing SDI output cards. How is that functionally different from extracting video? Given that most of us are going to re-encode to a different format anyway?

    There have been threads here about running emulators with the D-Tivo or on the D-Tivo itself. Emulator = no legal purpose for this bit of code either, and don't give me any of that Canada BS. It may be legal in canada, but that doesn't change that it's still "getting service without paying for it".
    Sorry Otto, the Canada thing is established case law, not BS. The logic is interesting at best, but there it is. As for paying for service...I think you would be shocked at the number of subbed units (to both DTV and TiVo) running emus and/or fixup.

    I work in the middle of one DMA, but I live just over the edge into the next DMA. I couldn't care less about the news from the big city in that DMA, it's 40 miles away.

    So if I wanted to watch news about the part of the world where I spend most of my time, I'd have to "steal" service. And since the calls to TiVo include info about the CAM, I wouldn't be able to let the TiVo call home.

    Same with extraction S/W. Twisted interpretations of copyright law aside, TiVo and especially DTV don't like it. As such, we can expect them to put in code to look for it. Again, reason not to let it call home. But that doesn't mean I'll steal service.

    If you release something that can be used to steal service, and people use it to steal service, then your intentions for releasing it be damned, you've still made it possible for a hell of a lot of people to steal service.
    Lets outlaw the manufacture of firearms, then. Same argument. Shall I go on? Better ban cars and airplanes too.

    The next argument I'm expecting here is "but it has a legitimate purpose too", which may be true, but that's not the primary purpose nor the primary use.
    See above.

    Fact: Members of this forum have made software that makes it possible to steal service, released that code here, and now you get morons on e-bay selling "no-service" D-Tivo's to anyone who wants them. Most of these e-bay guys couldn't have done that without this software, they're not that bright.
    And Tivo/DTV should go after the guys who are selling units under those circumstances. For the same reason that you should go after murderers instead of firearm manufacturers.

    I'm sick of the mentality that we need to stamp out tools that can be misused instead of outlawing criminal acts.

    -Z

  6. #6
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    Again I ask why does OTTO choose to browse as a guest?

    I am sure many would have questions about TiVo that are well within his described opinion.

    It is a shame that someone with all this knowledge would choose to be anonymous whilst lurking among us, kind of like searching without a warrant.

  7. #7
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    EDIT: lets just all think happy thoughts... And leave our public focus on more constructive hacks

    previous post was way too sappy...
    Last edited by Glitched; 01-24-2002 at 01:42 PM.
    -= Glitched =-

  8. #8
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    *Shrug*

    The metaphysics of Tivo.

    We all come here for different reasons. Pragmatically, you can't be selective in allowing visitors based on their motivations.

    So this conversation cannot result in a functional decision unless the moderators choose to begin censoring conversation dealing with mods that COULD be applied unethically, much as they try to re: emulation.

    I don't see that happening, so why get all worked up about it?

    T_RJ has the right idea- browsing a board where this sort of stuff is discussed is just as damning as partaking of it (by Otto's arguments)...

  9. #9
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    jeeze folks,

    The idea of my post was not to begin debate on the legalities of anything that's posted here. Far from it. Each man is free to do what he wants and it's not my call to say otherwise. Vadim (and his mods)are the only ones who can dictate content on this board.

    My point was I'm afraid that the perceived reputation of this forum is keeping those with a higher knowledge of the tivo system, and a lower tolerance of theft, from posting here.

    A casual glance at the topics on the first page of the DirecTV TiVo Hacking forum gives the impression that the main purpose of the forum is to assist those who want freetv and freetivo.

    Is this the main reason for this forum? Instead of seeing posts from people who want to play and learn from digging into their tivo, I see posts from folks who really don't want to learn about tivo, they just want freetv.

    Those are the posts that stand out to the casual visitor and they are the posts that are quoted with great distaste on other forums.

    I was hoping that maybe, if Vadim still believes that this is topic is ok for this board, a new forum could be setup for the freetv/fixup topic, leaving this forum free for the discussion of extracting vids, the inner workings of mfs, networking, ui additions/replacements and the like.

    I hate to see people referring to this place as a "pirate" board. There are just too many of those already.

    ---------------------------------------------------
    On a related topic..

    Vid extraction from dtivo.

    Ok, dtv owns the stream. I purchase the content of that stream. The stream is how the content is delivered to me. As long as I do not publicly distribute that content or attempt to profit from it's use, I am free to privately use that content any way I choose. I pay for it. It's mine for private use.

    There are new laws that contradict my statements above. I do not agree with these laws nor do I believe that, when challenged, they will stand. (can you say tea party?) Until then, I will continue to fight/challenge these laws until they are struck down as being unconstitutional. The only thing that would stop that from happening is the outright purchase of our elected representatives. Our elected representatives that already have been bought and the ignorance of others are responsible for the current unconstitutional laws we now have.

    I hope we can change this and I will continue to protest and defy these laws in my own way. Civil disobedience sometimes is the loudest voice.

  10. #10
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    can we get an opinion from Vadim or one of the mods on this subject?

  11. #11
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    Just to answer a few minor questions:

    T_RJ: When I say I browse as a guest, I meant that I've not posted anything here. Never seemed to have anything to say in here until I was quoted.

    lsmod:

    D-Tivo extraction: Fair use is all fine and dandy, until you read the DMCA and look at established precedent by past law. This one doesn't really bother me except in that it has the potential to be a big problem. In reality, I don't think anybody is going to be passing this content around without reencoding and losing data from it anyway.

    Canada: I don't give a damn whether it's legal in Canada or not. That's was the point I was making. It's illegal here, you're here, QED. And you may rationalize your card hacking via whatever reasoning you choose to use, it's still BS and doesn't change that you are stealing the signal. Be a man. Admit you are a thief. I was for 3 years.

    Firearms analogy: Yes, that's a very good analogy. If you make a gun that can be used for hunting but most likely will be used for murder, and you know this, then would you still make the gun? I'm talking of course about the "Saturday Night Special", banned in most places nowadays simply because it is used mainly for murder.

    And the mentality is not about stamping out tools that can be used for criminal behavior, far from it. But when you make a tool whose primary purpose is for criminal behavior, then you shouldn't be shocked when people get pissed at you for making it. Did you know that carrying a rifle openly is legal most everywhere in the US, while carrying a handgun openly is illegal in most of the same? Why? Because criminals don't use rifles, they use handguns. The right tool for the right task.

    synthesis: I never said reading this forum or its existance was wrong. In no way did I mean to imply that. However, if I see a snake in the grass, I call it a snake in the grass, I don't try to pretend it's something else or be surprised when it bites me. Things are what they are. I called this a "pirate forum" (paraphrase) because I look at the threads and read them and see a pirate forum. If you see something different, then perhaps you need glasses or something, because from my viewpoint as a casual and occasional reader, it's a pirate forum. This isn't the only pirate forum I read, far from it, I read a couple of DTV hacking forums and so forth. I don't contribute to them, but I read them anyway. I won't deny it, because I do read them, or say it's wrong, because it's not. But it is what it is.

  12. #12
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    >>>>>My point was I'm afraid that the perceived reputation of this forum is keeping those with a higher knowledge of the tivo system, and a lower tolerance of theft, from posting here.


    nah.. it's an elitist mindset that keeps them from posting here.. There's plenty of reading to back up that claim.


    >>>>>The idea of my post was not to begin debate on the legalities of anything that's posted here. Far from it. Each man is free to do what he wants and it's not my call to say otherwise. Vadim (and his mods)are the only ones who can dictate content on this board.

    Calling me a dictator huh? .. well.. send me your wife, your car, a hextuple lnb dish, and I'll consider letting you live.. muahahahahaha..

    I come for the babes.. and the sociology.. and the ........ .. and the other stuff.. plus, it gives me something to do at work..

    .. knock knock .. who's there?
    .. I ran across some kewl stuff on the DTiVo .. do tell
    .. well I was paying attention to the boot sequence and..... .. Grab him guys.. !!


    Otto:
    Hi..

    direct usage of a legally subscribed H card is a somewhat trivial challange, and legal.. and it's kinda fun to mess with people, and doesn't break the rules of the forum.. vadim won't get in trouble because someone (else) figures out what the first HU card number was, and as long as documentation for specific usage of software or hardware that will give DTV a reason and legally justifiable claim remains off the board, discussion of DTV is harmless.

    The only topic that I know of that directly supports illegal activity is the reception of locals, which violates a rather stupid federal law. Government does NOT exist keep advertisements in a particular geo/demographic region (though they seem to think it does)

    My moral structure does not match many of the people in control of information in this world, If you've got a few years, I think I could explain all of the logical paths and illogical jumps that I used to develop my rather simple mindset. One of these days I'll actually write it up, especially if soemone asks for it..


    ..

    Fugg: This board gets more traffic structured the way it is, and occasionally new people with the desire and ability to learn pop up and bring refreshing insight into our community. There are plenty of things that are discussed privately as a direct result of contacts made public here. To think that what is posted in the open here is the end of the line is just naive.

    Otto: While I understand where you are coming from in your post, I think perhaps you are coming down a bit harshly on some people who have provided an impetus for many things in this world. If you ever feel like sharing again, or feel like spreading information, or learning something new, you know where we are..

  13. #13
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    BubbaJ,

    Thanks for your reply.

    "... occasionally new people with the desire and ability to learn pop up and bring refreshing insight into our community."

    I have to agree, but my point was that the folks that "pop up" now are here for different reasons than the folks that popped up here july of last year.

    "There are plenty of things that are discussed privately as a direct result of contacts made public here."

    I worry that those that feel that they have to discuss things privately do so because of the "Perceived Reputation" this board now has.

    In the past, those discussions were taking place openly. Now, they're gone. I miss that.

    "To think that what is posted in the open here is the end of the line is just naive."

    I don't believe that this is the end of the line, far from it.

    To use an analogy,

    I don't think this station is the end of the line, but I think that many of the better trains no longer stop here......

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by BubbaJ
    Otto: While I understand where you are coming from in your post, I think perhaps you are coming down a bit harshly on some people who have provided an impetus for many things in this world. If you ever feel like sharing again, or feel like spreading information, or learning something new, you know where we are..
    I didn't mean to be harsh or to imply that what anyone here does is wrong. On the contrary, some of it is quite nifty stuff.

    But I detest hypocrisy. If you're getting signal and not paying for it, you're a thief. Doesn't matter where you live, doesn't matter what the law is, you're still a thief. Admit it. Face facts as they really are instead of trying to change the world with your BS wording. Like I said before, I got service for 3 years without paying one thin dime. I was a thief. I stole the service. Come on, face up to it. There may be grades of thievery, like stealing only the locals which is pretty blameless in my book. The SHVIA laws suck donkey balls, without question. But hey, you're still a thief, eh? Just damn well face the truth and reality for what it is rather than what you want it to be.

    Civil disobedience? What rot that is.. You're not stealing signal to disobey the law, you're stealing signal because you want to watch the signal. The civil disobedience thing is a rationalization of your actions to make you feel like you're not stealing. You are stealing, but that doesn't make it automatically wrong. Right and wrong and justice are much trickier than "law".

    So stand up, declare it, and stop being a hypocrite. If you steal DTV then say "I steal DTV, damnit" and you'll feel a lot better about yourself than if you try to rationalize your theft by blaming others. Take some personal responsibility.

  15. #15
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    I don't watch TV though.. I just steal the signal..

    Off topic but relevant quandry:
    If I steal a radio wave, and never watch the information it carries, did I really steal it?

    If I watch the information carried by a radio wave, but did not steal it, or know that it was stolen, am I a thief?

    ....


    If I pay for the rights to rebroadcast a signal, then blanket broadcast a continent with that which I paid for, should I have any right to complain when someone listens to what I am sending without telling me and paying me?

    Should I as a non-citizen, without a mind of my own, be able to legally complain about the actions of freethinking citizens?

    Should I as a non-thinking entity be granted any power by threat of force to constrain those capable of independant thought?


    Welcome to America, Land of the Corporation, home to the corrupt, legacy of profit from the work of others.

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