This Board's "Perceived Reputation"?

[Otto]

Originally posted by BubbaJ
If I pay for the rights to rebroadcast a signal, then blanket broadcast a continent with that which I paid for, should I have any right to complain when someone listens to what I am sending without telling me and paying me?

Of course. You *always* have the right to complain.

Should I as a non-citizen, without a mind of my own, be able to legally complain about the actions of freethinking citizens?

Of course. While you may not have a mind of your own, you are a corporate entity, controlled by and representing many thousands of entities with minds of their own who have put a hell of a lot of effort into the work that is being stolen.

Should I as a non-thinking entity be granted any power by threat of force to constrain those capable of independant thought?

Of course. The corporate entity is an aggregate of the people controlling and working to maintain it, and they have the right to ask for redress of grievances.

One you make the mistake of treating people as things (which you're doing by not recognizing the time, effort, and cash put into these corporate entities actions by the people working and controlling them), then there's no end to the wrongs you can commit. Then it's only a matter of time before you lapse into either solipism or determinism, and decide that nobody's actions but yours matter. At that point, you can justify anything you want to do.

[Fugg]

"Civil disobedience? What rot that is.."

Otto,

Since I was the only one to post about civil disobedience, I have to reply.

I am not stealing anyone's signal. I am a paying customer of dtv. I pay tivo monthly for all of my boxes. (even the one that is in pieces most of the time)

My use of the term "civil disobedience" was not an attempt at justifying theft.

My use of the term "civil disobedience" was an attempt at explaining my feelings of disgust and defiance of the basic tenants of the dmca. The continuance of my attempts to extract vids from the tivo is civil disobedience of the laws I see as unjust, unfair and just downright unconstitutional.

So let me take this opportunity to stand up and declare that:

I am NOT a hypocrite.
I DO NOT steal Tivo service.
I DO NOT steal DTV, damn it!

The general thought that anything coming from this board is considered to be related to theft of service of any kind is one of the reasons for my starting of this thread.

Actually, I think we agree on most things except the dmca. I hope I haven't started any ill feelings here.
I apologize if I have.
I assure you that was not my intention.

[Otto]

Originally posted by Fugg
I hope I haven't started any ill feelings here.
I apologize if I have.
I assure you that was not my intention.

I understood your meaning and addressed it from a standpoint of generalization. Nor did I think you did steal service, that was not my intention either. Nor did I mean "hypocrite" with the negative connotation normally associated with that word, but with the dictionary definition that you can look up yourself at www.m-w.com .

And so on and so forth. Nobody's hurt here.

[Fugg]

Otto,

At the risk of dragging this out...

What other connotation for the word "hypocrite" is there?

Your link defines the word as:

"a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion"

How can anything I've posted be construed as "putting on a false appearance of virtue"?

I'm sorry to be so sensitive, but you've struck on two words that I find the most offensive in the English language. Hypocrite and Thief.

Maybe you see guilt by association. I can understand that. There's another reason for worrying about the rep of this board....

If your statement was not directed at me, please disregard this post.

[Otto]

Originally posted by Fugg
What other connotation for the word "hypocrite" is there?

Your link defines the word as:
"a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion"

How can anything I've posted be construed as "putting on a false appearance of virtue"?
...
If your statement was not directed at me, please disregard this post.

One entry found for hypocrisy.

Main Entry: hy·poc·ri·sy
Pronunciation: hi-'pä-kr&-sE also hI-
Function: noun
...
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2 : an act or instance of hypocrisy


I too often see someone throwing around things like: "it's legal in canada" or "civil disobedience" or whatever when they're trying to justify their actions in this matter. My point is that this is a cop-out, the truth is that they want to get the signal without paying for it and that's why they do it.

If you don't steal signal, then my post wasn't directed at you. Sorry if it came across as an attack upon you, I didn't mean it to be that way.

[BubbaJ]

I am A Hypocrite, I follow the doctors.

I am A Thief, I steal many things that other can or have claimed as their own.

I am Comfortable with myself and my existance.

The philosophies I adhere to tend to make others uncomfortable. Particularly those who believe they have the right and means to control others.

Pull.

[lsmod]

OK Otto. Here it is:

I pay for what the powers that be will let me pay for.

I steal what I would be willing to pay for, but am not allowed to.

And some grey areas in between:

Is running the fixup on a lifetime-subbed unit theft?

Is "moving" (which is probably wire fraud) better than stealing locals?

SHVIA sucks. So does network non-duplication on cable.
DMCA sucks. It's also untested in court as of yet.

I don't actually believe that the DMCA could be stretched to cover extraction from a 2.0.1 DTivo. ExtractStream doesn't touch the CAM. 2.5 is another issue, but I think that the DMCA will get torn apart before that matters.

I still have a problem with tools being outlawed rather than crimes, even if the tool is a Saturday Night Special. Or a set of lock picks. Or DeCSS.

-Z

[Animal_Mother]

I just come here because I don't want a phone line running across my living room floor!

[Otto]

Originally posted by lsmod
I pay for what the powers that be will let me pay for.
I steal what I would be willing to pay for, but am not allowed to.

Then we have no argument. Like I said, it's not necessarily wrong per se, as long as you can face the truth of the matter.

Is running the fixup on a lifetime-subbed unit theft?

I leave the debating over semantics to those trained in doing it. However, do you really believe that the primary use of the fixup script is to be able to disconnect the phone line, rather than simply to enable free service? I'd wager that at least 85% of those using fixup use it to enable the tivo to work without paying one cent to tivo themselves. That it has a "valid" usage makes no difference, the primary use seems clear.

Is "moving" (which is probably wire fraud) better than stealing locals?

Nope. They're both forms of violating the law in one method or another. That it's an unjust law is irrelevant.

SHVIA sucks. So does network non-duplication on cable.
DMCA sucks. It's also untested in court as of yet.

Agreed.

I don't actually believe that the DMCA could be stretched to cover extraction from a 2.0.1 DTivo. ExtractStream doesn't touch the CAM. 2.5 is another issue, but I think that the DMCA will get torn apart before that matters.

This is quite possible and it's open to interpretation. The reason we banned it on AVS is that it's a potential legal trouble that we don't want to be a test case for. I see nothing wrong with extracting video digitally or by any other means, personally.

I still have a problem with tools being outlawed rather than crimes, even if the tool is a Saturday Night Special. Or a set of lock picks. Or DeCSS.

And yet tools often are banned when their primary purpose is overwhelmingly for assisting in criminal activities. You can debate the justice of this one all day and night, but past precedent is usually pretty clear in this regard.

I'll add that if the primary usage of fixup was to disable the need to dial in then it wouldn't need to set the service status to lifetime, it could simply fake out the dialing routine to think it succeeded, thus keeping the service status as whatever it already was. It's not very difficult to do, really.

[digitalAir]

Originally posted by BubbaJ

My moral structure does not match many of the people in control of information in this world, If you've got a few years, I think I could explain all of the logical paths and illogical jumps that I used to develop my rather simple mindset. One of these days I'll actually write it up, especially if soemone asks for it..

Woo HOoo... The "Tao of Bubba"...

or would it be more along the lines of "Te"?

[dsboyce8624]

This is starting to look like Billy Grahm versus the Heathens.

None of what any of you have said matters one little bit.

IMHO - This board has become a place where people go to find out how to hack thier equipment. No matter what their motivations may be. Nobody here, whether code poster or free-tver, has the right to assume what anybody elses motives are. If anybody thinks this place is just about getting free service from where ever they get it, let them. This opinion, right or wrong, will draw the most brilliant (albeit perverted and twisted - BubbaJ) minds to our little group, thereby enriching our knowledge of that which we seek to understand. If somebody doesn't want to come here because of this perception, we probably didn't want them here anyway. Otto, you are entitled to your perceptions, just don't try to force them on anybody else. The rest of you, if you care what anybody else thinks, you are too shallow for it to matter.

Boiled Down: If you don't like it here, stay out. If you have nothing good to say, shut the hell up.

Getting down off my soap box.

PS - I also think this thread needs to end abruptly, it serves no purpose in the forum.

Dennis

[BubbaJ]

:P

I'm quite enjoying this thread.. If it were somehow relevant I'd make it sticky for a while.. ..

vadim thinks differently from me though.. so maybe he'll close it..

will draw the most brilliant (albeit perverted and twisted - BubbaJ) minds to our little group ...ROFLMAO....


.. which one of us is billy graham?

[dsboyce8624]

Well, so far, your comments have been the most amusing, so I guess you are.

Dennis

[Ellipse]

I have been a fan and registered user of both this and the AVS board for a while now. I think they both have their place in the universe, and I agree that we need to work on the image over here, unless you like it. I do not consider this to be a "pirate" board bent on getting the services for free.

I do pay for my services, and no, I am not lucky enough to be in an area that has the local to local. I actually was able to get waivers from 2 of the 4 networks offered to me as a distant station. I even pay for that too!

I do not agree with the statement that Otto made about the channel lineup tools, however. I was using them to move my distant networks to their actual channel numbers, I was using it to get rid of channels that kept showing up in the "Channels you receive" after I got rid of them (i.e. NFL and other sports barkers), and I was using it to group channels together that made sence to me (news with news, music styles with similar music styles, etc.). This was a great way for me to do this, but I found it took too much time from the CPU away from the display of the channel listings. I have stopped using it so I am now back to the old lineups and the weekly removal of the extra channels (gee, Thanks DirecTV!) from my lineup.

I understand AVS's position about the ExtractStream software and I fully support their position. They have a point about not wanting to be a test case, and I do not blame them. I would not want to be one either.

I also agree with Otto's position on the fixup script, but at the same time, I am currently using it in one room that does not have a phone line yet. I let it call in a few times, but I got tired of taking the system apart to let it make the call once a month. It IS a Lifetime sub, so it is not changing the status at all. I will also remove it once I pull the wire needed to bring telephone to the room. I just plan on pulling it at the same time I pull the replacement coax, and the 2nd line for the 2nd tuner.

What I have found here has been a group of people that, for better or for worse, have been willing to not just say, "Here is a neat piece of code to play with.", but have also been willing to teach others how things work so that they can learn as well. I posted both here and on AVS looking for help to get a bash prompt on the DTivo, and it was here that actually helped me to do so. I still got some response from the AVS area, but nothing that helped me out.

I think it is time that as members of THIS community, we need to do a better job of enforcing the policy posted about this forum. That includes removal of free tv information from THIS forum. I also think we should respect the theft of service point that is made here regarding the posted fixup script. It is being abused and should not be here if we do not want to deal with the fallout. There are plenty of other places for that information and I am sure that the people that find this place can find those as well. It is not too tough.

Otto, I respect you and the job you do for the AVS forums. I am sure you did not come here to start an "us vs. them" discussion either. I posted this information in the thread over there as well yesterday I believe. I just hope that the perception of information here being of a "priate" nature causes people to avoid or flame people that go there are well.

Can't we all just get along?

[Otto]

Oh no, don't get me wrong. There's no "us vs. them" intended. You guys do whatever you want, I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to run their forum or anything. I was simply trying to answer Fugg's original question about why this forum had that perception, at least from my point of view... since I have that perception he was discussing. Somehow it got shafted into this debate, which wasn't the original point, I think. But hey, it's your forum. Enjoy it as much as you like.

But don't think Tivo doesn't read this forum too, you know.